Character Competitive Impressions

[LimitCrown]

Using Event mode as an excuse is rather silly to me since in SMASH mode which is the mode tournaments are played we can sue whatever mii regardless of customs but this is a really weird argument on both sides but whatever,

Spoiler

Let's just make all tournaments custom legal

One of the reasons that people who want the Mii Fighters to be able to use all of their custom special gave to support their position is that they don't have any special moves considered to be a "default", which is why I brought up Event Mode because it completely contradicts that reasoning. Like it or not, it is clearly an example of the Mii Fighters being limited to their 1111 moveset, just like every other character.

Also, although they are technically characters that you can create, they're still either the Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner, which are considered by the game to be three separate characters. It isn't like each Mii Fighter that you create is a separate character. Although they have custom moves that are noticeably different from each other, so does Palutena. Even if the other characters' custom moves aren't significantly different from each other, they have a noticeable effect on how the character is played. I could compare the effects that the height and weight of the Miis used to create the Mii Fighters have to the effects of equipment.

 

[LightLV]

Getting a certain vibe from this post. If my vibe is wrong, I apologize.

Going to be 100% blunt and honest. This is not aggressive or meant to be insulting. It's just completely blunt.

Maybe if you didn't have the mentality of a scrub, you wouldn't have to respond with hyperbole all the time and you'd learn a thing or 2.

Hee hee, fair enough.

To also be blunt? I recognize you from other conversations on this forum, and to have you type that to me just produced audible laughter.

 

[mimgrim]

Re Mii: They can have their "custom" moves (I don't think they even can be called that since they don't truly have a default set and can use them no matter what mode where they can be used, and I question anyone trying to use online anyone crap as justification when they don't also support the rest of the rule-set found in For Glory but w/e, semantics) without actually having the "Customs" button turn on (they can also be different sizes as well and what not) making them noticeably different from Palutena (who requires Customs ON to use her customs still) and making any argument with her as a reason against custom Miis in default a slippery slope. Pretty much anything but allowing Miis their full customization is completely biased and arbitrary (note that Arbitary, in this context, doesn't mean there aren't valid concerns but rather is up to individual will) because it goes directly against what the game says, thinking otherwise is foolish/ignorant.

 

[san.]

One of the reasons that people who want the Mii Fighters to be able to use all of their custom special gave to support their position is that they don't have any special moves considered to be a "default", which is why I brought up Event Mode because it completely contradicts that reasoning. Like it or not, it is clearly an example of the Mii Fighters being limited to their 1111 moveset, just like every other character.

Only under customs 'off.' Turn customs 'on' and miis can use all of their specials in event mode. That's interesting! Now why would the game force 1111 with customs off in event mode but allow all of mii's specials in pretty much all other modes in the game? They could've easily done the same thing in other modes, but they didn't for a reason. This only enforces that a Mii's ability to use all available specials in other modes is an intentional implementation. Vs. mode trumps all anyways.

Also, although they are technically characters that you can create, they're still either the Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner, which are considered by the game to be three separate characters. It isn't like each Mii Fighter that you create is a separate character. Although they have custom moves that are noticeably different from each other, so does Palutena. Even if the other characters' custom moves aren't significantly different from each other, they have a noticeable effect on how the character is played. I could compare the effects that the height and weight of the Miis used to create the Mii Fighters have to the effects of equipment.

They have to be considered different characters based on how it's coded at least. Other than that, they have their own queue of characters you can choose from. It's reaching too much to really come to any sort of conclusions from how many characters they're supposed to represent.


Weight gives you an internal weight of ~97-102 which is not very large a difference. The damage difference from weight is less than 1%. Tiny miis have a few frames less lag than default (though it still adds up), overall giving them similar lag times to other characters of that archetype at the obvious cost of less reach. Some characters already have low lag and much better reach than tiny Miis.

Only movement speed differences are quite large since movement is stacked with both height and weight, so it receives a double effect. I've tried 50/0 miis and they are slightly faster. I have also tried 0/100 miis and they felt slower than I thought (think Wario). Even so, only tiny Brawler maintains a top air speed while quite a few characters can still outmatch him on the ground.

 

[Yonder]

Mii Sword fighter is interesting like I don't think he's that great but super unexplored and I feel like he has some untapped potential definitely not the worst in the game imo

Which makes me wonder...who is the worst? It's way to difficult to tell in this game. In the previous Smashes it was pretty easy to identify after a few months [64: Luigi, Melee: Kirby/Pichu, Brawl: Ganondorf] we had a consensus with Swordfighter before, but Trela has been getting results and he got some helpful buffs last patch. I don't think he's worst, personally.

 

[Gawain]

If he can land a grab, he can combo into a kill move in a lot of situation.

I don't really agree with that. Ike has great followups from grabs but in order to get the kill, he has to get a read off an air dodge or some other kind of trap. All of his throws send the opponent too far for any of his moves to true combo at kill percents. He can't true combo into his kills, which is honestly a really important part of being a high tier character. Luigi can true combo into his kill moves. So can Diddy Kong, Sheik, Captain Falcon, etc. Unless they have the ability to zone you out to the point at which being able to combo means literally nothing (Rosalina), then I'd consider it an important quality. Ike can edge guard pretty well for kills vs lots of types of characters, which is one of his bigger strengths imo, but he has a really hard time vs the ones he can't do this to.

 

[LightLV]

I wish Ike was better than he is simply because he looks so cool now. But to beat good people with him you just have to play really solid. His moveset just provides way more risk than reward and despite a few good normals and supposedly being a power character, he really has to work harder for his KOs than he feels like he should. He just feels outclassed by pretty much every other "hard hitter" in the game.

 

[Gawain]

I wish Ike was better than he is simply because he looks so cool now. But to beat good people with him you just have to play really solid. His moveset just provides way more risk than reward and despite a few good normals and supposedly being a power character, he really has to work harder for his KOs than he feels like he should. He just feels outclassed by pretty much every other "hard hitter" in the game.

I don't know about that. I think he's okay. Upper mid tier. I honestly think he's better than Marth in this game at the very least. He's got some good janky matchups vs some of the better characters in the game too. He's got a niche that he fulfills pretty nicely. Niche secondary or third material in my opinion. He's got Brawl stigma making people pass judgment on him without even seeing that he plays a very different game now.

 

[C0rvus]

So in my everlasting internal struggle to find a main, I keep finding myself coming back to Greninja. So I've been labbing with him as of late, and I'm not really sure what to think of the character. Good combo and mixup potential, but his frame data and hit boxes require a good deal of precision. Shuriken are okay but their use seems to end at poking foes and making them approach. He's a weird character, fast movement wise but laggy in a number if places, forcing him to play a bait and punish style that may or may not have a place in a more developed Smash 4 meta.

I have yet to take him anywhere so I don't know if any of the mixups I've been working on will work at all. But I feel like Greninja has a decent shot overall, he's just harder to play than many of the current top characters. Anyone have thoughts on his viability, though? I cringe at the thought of facing good Mario or Shiek players, but that's partially a personal thing as well. Greninja has very little representation in top level play, which is a little disheartening, and his net gain from custom moves is far below average. Am I just better off investing time into Zero Suit Samus? They seems similar enough in playstyle.

 

[Gawain]

So in my everlasting internal struggle to find a main, I keep finding myself coming back to Greninja. So I've been labbing with him as of late, and I'm not really sure what to think of the character. Good combo and mixup potential, but his frame data and hit boxes require a good deal of precision. Shuriken are okay but their use seems to end at poking foes and making them approach. He's a weird character, fast movement wise but laggy in a number if places, forcing him to play a bait and punish style that may or may not have a place in a more developed Smash 4 meta.

I have yet to take him anywhere so I don't know if any of the mixups I've been working on will work at all. But I feel like Greninja has a decent shot overall, he's just harder to play than many of the current top characters. Anyone have thoughts on his viability, though? I cringe at the thought of facing good Mario or Shiek players, but that's partially a personal thing as well. Greninja has very little representation in top level play, which is a little disheartening, and his net gain from custom moves is far below average. Am I just better off investing time into Zero Suit Samus? They seems similar enough in playstyle.

I think he's pretty good. I wish they hadn't nerfed his shurikens though. You can't justify that nerf when Luigi still gets to keep his fireballs. Up smash nerf was needed though. If you have better success and like him more than ZSS I'd say stick with Greninja, otherwise switch. They're probably pretty close to each other.

 

[LimitCrown]

Only under customs 'off.' Turn customs 'on' and miis can use all of their specials in event mode. That's interesting! Now why would the game force 1111 with customs off in event mode but allow all of mii's specials in pretty much all other modes in the game? They could've easily done the same thing in other modes, but they didn't for a reason. This only enforces that a Mii's ability to use all available specials in other modes is an intentional implementation. Vs. mode trumps all anyways.

Note that the game has done this since it was released, so I believe that this behavior was implemented deliberately. It enforces that the Mii Fighters has default special moves, which is the 1111 moveset like the others characters. Besides, Event Mode is just fighting CPU opponents, which is basically every other major single-player mode.

They have to be considered different characters based on how it's coded at least. Other than that, they have their own queue of characters you can choose from. It's reaching too much to really come to any sort of conclusions from how many characters they're supposed to represent.


Weight gives you an internal weight of ~97-102 which is not very large a difference. The damage difference from weight is less than 1%. Tiny miis have a few frames less lag than default (though it still adds up), overall giving them similar lag times to other characters of that archetype at the obvious cost of less reach. Some characters already have low lag and much better reach than tiny Miis.

Only movement speed differences are quite large since movement is stacked with both height and weight, so it receives a double effect. I've tried 50/0 miis and they are slightly faster. I have also tried 0/100 miis and they felt slower than I thought (think Wario). Even so, only tiny Brawler maintains a top air speed while quite a few characters can still outmatch him on the ground.

One of the differences between the Mii Fighters and the other characters is that you can create significantly more custom movesets for the Mii Fighters. However, I could argue that each custom moveset for the other characters could be considered separate characters if the Mii Fighters are. Even though the animations for most of those characters' special moves are the same, the properties of those moves are very different.

I agree that most of the effects that height and weight have aren't very noticeable. The effects that it has on mobility, however, means that Miis with a low height and weight would seem to be used more often. I made the comparison to equipment because it alters the Mii Fighter's stats in a somewhat similar way. Their regular stats correspond to a Mii with a medium height and weight.

 

[TriTails]

The frame 2 Nair guys, Little Mac and Mega Man, can mash out Nair to interrupt combos, but they're not as good since they lack sex kick properties to surround themselves with a hitbox.

I recall Mega's N-air is F7.

Here's the thing, the main "culprits" to Nair interrupts are (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, and Yoshi. Is a frame 3 Nair really necessary to their moveset? I wouldn't say so, especially since Luigi's can cheese you out since his Nair is really strong, but do they need to be nerfed to oblivion? No. If anything, they could end up with frame 4, 5, or even 6 Nairs and they wouldn't be severely hurting.

Yoshi's N-air is stronger than Luigi's actually. Kills Mario at the center of 3DS FD at 161% instead of Luigi's 165%. But Yoshi's a horizontal kill move while Luigi's a vertical one, so yeah...

 

[Ffamran]

I recall Mega's N-air is F7.

The thread wasn't updated in a long time; still has Kirby's jab listed as frame 1. Well, whatever.

 

[Diddy Kong]

come on @ Diddy Kong , you know as well as I do how absolutely bonkers Diddy was, whatever weaknesses he had, they weren't worth a damn a thing considering his strengths. Sheik has time and time again been shown to struggle with her weaknesses at all levels of play.

Like, we dislike Luigi's grab game and ability to get the grab, we dislike Brawler getting confirms into kills at absurdly low percent.
Diddy was both of these things, better than both of them at those things, and was still on a much stronger overall kit.

So with that in mind, I will FIND YOU AND GET YOU if you even remotely dare to start a "please, will someone think of the poor abused Monkeys" campaign.

I just want his F Air to be stronger and F Smash having less lag again plus better customs Is that really so much to ask? Diddy would've also been SO MUCH BETTER if he had better off-stage skills but his nerfed recovery really doesn't want you to be going off-stage. I kinda miss that from Brawl.

I wish Ike was better than he is simply because he looks so cool now. But to beat good people with him you just have to play really solid. His moveset just provides way more risk than reward and despite a few good normals and supposedly being a power character, he really has to work harder for his KOs than he feels like he should. He just feels outclassed by pretty much every other "hard hitter" in the game.

I found this not to be so much the case, as U Smash is quite a reliable roll-punisher. So as Ike, you'll have to keep adding pressure to your opponent, and hope they'll leave you enough room to punish their rolls with U Smash. Really, U Smash is all kinds of amazing. I <3 U Smash. It's only the miserable fact that Ike really has bad time dealing with projectiles. And yes, I'd like it to if his AAA combo was as strong as in Brawl, or his F Tilt came out faster. But I generally think of as a kind of high-risk-high-reward character as .

 

[bc1910]

OK, I tested it and his Fmsahs can still outrage counter. He can't hit Marth if Marth doesn't counter at that spacing, but I don't think he ever could. I also just did a pre-patch video to now comparison and I'm seeing no obvious differences in range on Fsmash or Dsmash. Could you give sources on this? I've never heard or noticed these changes until now. Usmash obviously got nerfed, but it's still pretty crazy.

In any case, a reversal on Greninja's nerfs still wouldn't make that much of a difference aside from the Shuriken nerf and maybe the Umsash nerf. He'd be a better character obviously, but only the old Shuriken really addressed any of the major problems of the character. He always had some trouble approaching and he always had bad out of shield options. Only the old Shuriken would help him deal with these issues to some extent. Everything else would just be overtuning the character IMO.

A reversal of his nerfs would make a massive difference but FullMoon kind of already covered it. Shuriken and Usmash would indeed make the biggest difference but any buff from pre-patch would be welcome.

If Greninja really lost range on his water sword moves, it's the first I'm hearing of it and the hitbox data from 1.0.3→1.0.4 is unchanged outside of usmash (unless this was a 1.0.6 thing). Guess I'll look into it next time I turn my 3DS on...on that note, where's the 1.0.6 data dump? I've been refreshing MasterCore every day for a month and a half

Pre-nerf Greninja usmash was dumb, but it never comboed into itself unless your opponent just put the controller down after being hit by it. What it did do was allow Greninja to combo a uair after it though, which was really overkill for a move that hit with disjoint above and to the sides of Greninja, with kill power on both the sweet and sour hits, and 19% total damage with the ability to follow up after for even more. It may not have been truly safe, but it had the same end lag as Ganon's usmash with more area coverage and disjoint on a much more mobile character (who also slides a lot when using it, to boot). It was a low-risk ridiculous-reward move that worked for pretty much all situations; now its endlag is average, its range is nerfed, and the sourspot doesn't kill as well so it doesn't outclass dsmash on its weak hit anymore. I guess you could argue it was overnerfed (I feel like Sheik's usmash has more disjoint now, for one), but it definitely warranted a nerf of some sort and its new endlag isn't excessive or anything.

In response to both of you, it is possible that his range has only been nerfed on the Wii U version. There are still differences between the Wii U and 3DS versions after all, I'm told that Mii Gunner is different on 3DS and this could be another example. But yeah, on the Wii U version I am 100% sure that his range has been nerfed from pre-1.0.4 3DS. Are you both testing on the 3DS or Wii U? Is there any way you could provide footage of his Fsmash making Marth's counter whiff on the 3DS? My 3DS is broken so although I do have the game still, I can't test anything.

The range nerf would have been from 1.0.3 to 1.0.4. Also yeah it's not in any of the data collected about the patch and I don't know how it was missed, Smashwiki makes some comment about Usmash's hitboxes getting smaller but that's all. When in reality all of his Smashes have smaller hitboxes and animations. You can even see it. Watch old videos, or videos of Greninja's Wii U build at E3 last year, you will see that his Smashes had significantly more range. The fact that Marth's counter no longer whiffs his Fsmash (or Usmash for that matter) is pretty definitive proof as well.

Data from patches is stored in a very strange way in this game, frame data is tied to animations for example so it's always hard to discern changes. It's possible that the raw hitbox data has not changed, but the animations for his Smashes have changed and within that are the hitbox changes.

@Lavani Pre-patch Usmash did combo into Uair yeah, I do remember that and it registered as a true combo in training. I... don't think it was that big a deal though. It only worked at a somewhat specific percent range and it's not like Uair deals huge amounts of damage. Also with our increased understanding of hitstun as of late it may have been possible to airdodge out of this combo, which no-one really tried in my experience.

I'm fairly sure pre-patch Usmash had more ending lag than Ganon's Usmash, I'm the first to admit I could be wrong on that but even so it didn't deal as much damage on the sides and thus dealt less shieldstun and shield pushback, so it wasnt safe on block. I still stand by the fact that despite being "dumb", there was reasonable counterplay to pre-patch Usmash. It may have been low risk but it definitely did not have ridiculous reward, even the sweetspot did not kill until about 100% on average. Either a range nerf or ending lag nerf would have been better, but both is overkill, and frankly I think it should have been left alone because it was far easier to deal with than most of the top tier nonsense even now. We've got people arguing over whether you should block Luigi's fireballs with your face and all you had to do against pre-patch Usmash was press R and enjoy your free dashgrab.

 

[Luco]

Could we all please calm down? This thread has been getting really heated as of late and I don't like it. It's not particularly fun to scroll down and see approximately a warning per two pages. >_>

The thing about Ike is, he came out, no-one really heard anything from him, then suddenly when customs became a thing people were shouting from the rooftops all about Ike's hidden glory, and then... *silence*

We heard very little in terms of results that suggested Ike could compete with the top tiers even with customs on. He just kinda fell off the radar for everyone.

 

[bc1910]

So in my everlasting internal struggle to find a main, I keep finding myself coming back to Greninja. So I've been labbing with him as of late, and I'm not really sure what to think of the character. Good combo and mixup potential, but his frame data and hit boxes require a good deal of precision. Shuriken are okay but their use seems to end at poking foes and making them approach. He's a weird character, fast movement wise but laggy in a number if places, forcing him to play a bait and punish style that may or may not have a place in a more developed Smash 4 meta.

I have yet to take him anywhere so I don't know if any of the mixups I've been working on will work at all. But I feel like Greninja has a decent shot overall, he's just harder to play than many of the current top characters. Anyone have thoughts on his viability, though? I cringe at the thought of facing good Mario or Shiek players, but that's partially a personal thing as well. Greninja has very little representation in top level play, which is a little disheartening, and his net gain from custom moves is far below average. Am I just better off investing time into Zero Suit Samus? They seems similar enough in playstyle.

@ C0rvus I personally do not believe bait and punish works or will work in Smash 4 because, to put it bluntly, you don't have to fall for the baits. Greninja is not strictly limited to bait and punish though, he has an interesting playstyle based around his mobility which isn't exactly bait and punish, but it's opportunistic, and I think it works at high level. His average frame data is bad but he does have enough fast moves to get by; f3 jab, f5 Dtilt, f5 Bair and a bunch of f9 moves. Most other characters have better frame data but several characters do not have moves (and certainly not an aerial) as fast as Greninja's fastest moves. Zero Suit Samus is currently a better regarded character and while I don't think they play much alike, ZSS is probably the best match to Greninja in terms of playstyle. You could learn both and see who you prefer. Both characters have a lot of potential and I think they will both rise in usage, results and tier lists as time goes on.

If it's a personal thing then fair enough, but just to let you know, from purely a MU perspective the Mario MU is not a problem. You can't box with him but you are significantly more mobile than him so you can avoid his attacks pretty well whilst pestering him with shurikens and looking for opportunities to run in and smack him. Also Greninja's edgeguarding is very good and Mario's recovery is sort of weak, so you'll know how that story ends. Sheik is Greninja's worst MU, she has the mobility to keep up with him, outboxes him and ruins his day with needles, but he's not really alone there since she's most characters' worst MU. He can at least kill her early, outrange her with Fair/Bair and survive against her for quite a while due to his great recovery. We're working on the Sheik MU all the time, feel free to visit the Greninja boards and get some help with it if you ever want to. Also, whilst I don't actually want Sheik to be nerfed, balance patches have shown that the devs love to tweak her and nerf her all the time, and while they're doing that this MU is only going to improve.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't even think has bad matchups vs but he'll get butchered by the likes of probably to. And his Side B Customs are great, as well as Aether Drive, it really helps a lot with recovery sometimes and it does nice damage once you learn how to hit with it. Am sure his buffed up Neutral B is also better than regular B, and Tempest also has it's uses. I don't think Ike is bad at all! He's just being slept on, or people prefer who has a similar playstyle yet more versatility.

 

[bc1910]

I don't even think has bad matchups vs but he'll get butchered by the likes of probably to. And his Side B Customs are great, as well as Aether Drive, it really helps a lot with recovery sometimes and it does nice damage once you learn how to hit with it. Am sure his buffed up Neutral B is also better than regular B, and Tempest also has it's uses. I don't think Ike is bad at all! He's just being slept on, or people prefer who has a similar playstyle yet more versatility.

For what it's worth, I don't know about butchered but Ike really struggles against any character with good edgeguarding as well. Random characters like Meta Knight, Greninja, even Jigglypuff can ruin his day by going deep to edgeguard him. His Side B is good in general because it basically allows him to skip the ledge game but if you're able to hit him before he uses it, or even just block it with your face, he's toast. I think other players have touched on Ike's recovery letting him down and I think that's what could keep him from performing above all. Then again we have Falcon performing well and inside most people's top 10 list so who knows, Ike could get around his poor recovery because he does have a lot of strengths that help make up for it.

 

[David Viran]

Yeah last game last hit is definitely bopping. Everytime he got a kill was from a mistake I made. I was beating him the whole time.

I think you misunderstood me I didn't mean Xanadu 100 as I think I posted that before you faced Bengals in that tournament, great matches BTW. I was talking about an earlier tournament that I can't remember exactly

 

[Diddy Kong]

Side B when fully charged is an amazing recovery though, so as Ike it's best to try to DI towards the upper sides of the stage and under no circumstance be too close to the edges. That way, Ike can really live up to amazing %s like the real heavy weights. Just make sure you space extremely well once you're getting in. As Ike can't really take too much risk near the edges because of being gimped. So yes, characters that can combo well with low knockback moves are harder to deal with for Ike, as it will limit the time he can recover back on stage with Side B.

Yes, Jigglypuff and MetaKnight can create nasty situations for Ike off-stage, but on-stage I think he has them solidly beat due to his immense range advantage. And he can kill both off extremely easy as well, though MetaKnight's Tornado can be bothersome. But everything else is really manageable, I'd say it goes at least even or 55-45 for Ike due to his onstage pressence.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I guarentee that if they replaced Mii Swordsman with Roy and he had the exact same moveset people would think he's good right from the beginning.

 

[PUK]

Side B when fully charged is an amazing recovery though, so as Ike it's best to try to DI towards the upper sides of the stage and under no circumstance be too close to the edges. That way, Ike can really live up to amazing %s like the real heavy weights. Just make sure you space extremely well once you're getting in. As Ike can't really take too much risk near the edges because of being gimped. So yes, characters that can combo well with low knockback moves are harder to deal with for Ike, as it will limit the time he can recover back on stage with Side B.

Yes, Jigglypuff and MetaKnight can create nasty situations for Ike off-stage, but on-stage I think he has them solidly beat due to his immense range advantage. And he can kill both off extremely easy as well, though MetaKnight's Tornado can be bothersome. But everything else is really manageable, I'd say it goes at least even or 55-45 for Ike due to his onstage pressence.

You have to be cautious when you're edgeguarding aether though. I randomly spiked often.
And imo diddy is not a bad MU. Ike has a very good game with the banana, making diddy/ike fights really ineresting. Also post patch diddy really struggle to kill someone with that disjoint and low commitment moves, and can't reliably edgeguard.
Sheik is one of his worst MU hands down, but fortunately some custom make the fight less heartbreaking

 

[Djent]

So apparently MVD beat ESAM in two back-to-back sets yet again last night. Did anyone catch it? I'm assuming he went and if so, I'm willing to bet that either 1) ESAM is playing the MU horribly wrong or 2) the MU is not at all in 's favor.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You have to be cautious when you're edgeguarding aether though. I randomly spiked often.
And imo diddy is not a bad MU. Ike has a very good game with the banana, making diddy/ike fights really ineresting. Also post patch diddy really struggle to kill someone with that disjoint and low commitment moves, and can't reliably edgeguard.
Sheik is one of his worst MU hands down, but fortunately some custom make the fight less heartbreaking

Well now that you said that, I guess Diddy is quite do-able for Ike yes like it was in Brawl. But Diddy plays the pressure game Ike plays better and can easily adapt to Ike's long range by waiting for punishes and then rack up damage with aerials and throws. So while it's managable for Ike, he's still gotta adapt really badly which I think would translate as a slight advantage for Diddy in the end. But still, good you pointed this out, because now I'm pretty sure Ike has quite good matchups vs the Top Tiers.

So apparently MVD beat ESAM in two back-to-back sets yet again last night. Did anyone catch it? I'm assuming he went and if so, I'm willing to bet that either 1) ESAM is playing the MU horribly wrong or 2) the MU is not at all in 's favor.

TOLD 'EM! All this time, I said Diddy > Pikachu, but Pikachu could only be better because of overall matchup spreads and having better customs. Otherwise, I believe Diddy solidly beats Pikachu on the ground. Banana > Quick Attack.

 

[Thinkaman]

If we don't let For Glory dictate tournament policy (and we shouldn't) why would we base anything off of event mode?

 

[thehard]

MVD beat ESAM last time they played in their weeklies too.

 

[Zelder]

Smash4: the one where everyone started looking for in-game reasons to justify tournament policy.

 

[LimitCrown]

If we don't let For Glory dictate tournament policy (and we shouldn't) why would we base anything off of event mode?

I brought up Event Mode because it is an example of the Mii Fighters using their 1111 moveset when customization is disabled. This supports the statement that the Mii Fighters have a default moveset and that their default moveset is 1111. Also, that argument that you used can be used against the notion that the Mii Fighters should be able to use their custom moves in tournaments that don't allow any.

 

[Luco]

I feel like 's edge-guarding and camping game would be enough to give a lot of trouble, actually.

 

[thehard]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

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Please, think of the Mii mains.

 

[Djent]

If we're talking customs, Close Combat gives a lot of trouble. I can see Pika winning in default though.

 

[Diddy Kong]

If we're talking customs, Close Combat gives a lot of trouble. I can see Pika winning in default though.

Customs where indeed the reason why I stated Ike had a good matchup vs Pikachu. But I don't think it's even too bad in default.

MVD beat ESAM last time they played in their weeklies too.

Should teach the Diddy naysayers a lesson that this character shouldn't be slept on despite the nerfs he got. GOOD! I want to see moar Diddy now.

 

[LimitCrown]

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Please, think of the Mii mains.

I have not claimed anything about the Mii Fighters being broken or not, so what does that have to do with any of the arguments that I made?

 

[warionumbah2]

Yes, Jigglypuff and MetaKnight can create nasty situations for Ike off-stage, but on-stage I think he has them solidly beat due to his immense range advantage. And he can kill both off extremely easy as well, though MetaKnight's Tornado can be bothersome. But everything else is really manageable, I'd say it goes at least even or 55-45 for Ike due to his onstage pressence.

So he loses to Link,Shulk,Marf,Lucina and D3. Good to know.

 

[Blobface]

Don't forget everyone: custom stats are allowed in Crazy Orders!

Legalize equipment today!

 

[thehard]

I have not claimed anything about the Mii Fighters being broken or not, so what does that have to do with any of the arguments that I made?

It wasn't really in response to you, just the Mii """debate""" in general.

 

[Luco]

It wasn't really in response to you, just the Mii """debate""" in general.

So many quotations. It hurts my eyes. D:

Also @ Diddy Kong I love how you were feeling sorry for the diddy nerfs and less than 1 page later being triumphant and talking about how those "naysayers" shouldn't sleep on diddy anymore.

 

[the king of murder]

I don't even think has bad matchups vs but he'll get butchered by the likes of probably to. And his Side B Customs are great, as well as Aether Drive, it really helps a lot with recovery sometimes and it does nice damage once you learn how to hit with it. Am sure his buffed up Neutral B is also better than regular B, and Tempest also has it's uses. I don't think Ike is bad at all! He's just being slept on, or people prefer who has a similar playstyle yet more versatility.

I am really not sure if Diddy and ZSS are butchering him. ZSS has to respect Ike range a lot(even in close range, Ikes Jab beats ZSS in range). ZSS can juggle Ike hard but Ike can get a lot of reward out of a single hit as well since he can juggle really hard too(grab, Dtilt, Nair heck even Jab sometimes as combo starters) and Ike kills her better once he is out of her desired percentage. She has to commit in order to get Ike in an uncomfortable position since a lot of her moves have end lag. Still wins the MU probably but not by a long shot.

Diddy can pressure Ike with Nanas, yeah, but his recovery is so easily abusable it's almost funny. Eruption covers about anything about Diddys recovery even side-b and he has other stuff like Fair to punish Monkey Flip.

I feel like 's edge-guarding and camping game would be enough to give a lot of trouble, actually.

Yeah he does. But the fact that Ike completly ouranges him, has a move that gives him breathing room in the form of Jab and kills earlier than Pika outside of gimps makes me think that the MU is not that bad.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So many quotations. It hurts my eyes. D:

Also @ Diddy Kong I love how you were feeling sorry for the diddy nerfs and less than 1 page later being triumphant and talking about how those "naysayers" shouldn't sleep on diddy anymore.

Fact remains he's worse than before. But I only really think Sheik is overall better than Diddy at this point. Diddy still has insane potential, but people are not really as keep on learning them due to dissapointment he can no longer Hoo Hah to victory.