Character Competitive Impressions

[Smooth Criminal]

You can say that about a lot of characters.

Even then, it's kinda hyperbolic. Especially at high levels of play.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Pyr]

Question: What combos are those, exactly? And if it always happens, why aren't you changing your game plan to accommodate instead of doing a cookie cutter combo? You know... Matchup stuff.

 

[LightLV]

That's all irrelevant, even if I use character-specific strings, they can still do it. Again, it's just another advantage they have (that other characters do not) that makes them top-tier.

That's like saying "yeah rosalina can punish you for grabbing her, so just dont grab her with luma nearby"....huh? Well, uh, okay, lots of help

 

[Pyr]

Well, when you don't give any specifics or details, you're not going to get any specifics or details. If your spacing is poor or you make an input error, you might get Nair'd. If you think you might get Nair'd, and this might come as a surprise, you can back off and make the read. Anyone who takes an option 100% of the time, like mashing A in a combo situation, should be a free win. Else... *gasp* You might of actually been outplayed! =O

It should be part of your knowledge of the matchup where a Nair can break a combo or get them out of the situation. FYI: Most airdodges in this game activate faster than a Nair. If you're leaving a 2+ frame gap, that's on you. Nair is strong at breaking combos, ya. But it's not a "press to win" button like you make it out to be.

To add to @ Smooth Criminal , a nair isn't exactly Montana Range. He does have a point there.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

That's all irrelevant, even if I use character-specific strings, they can still do it. Again, it's just another advantage they have (that other characters do not) that makes them top-tier.

That's like saying "yeah rosalina can punish you for grabbing her, so just dont grab her with luma nearby"....huh? Well, uh, okay, lots of help

It's...not irrelevant, though.

And you should probably learn to space your attacks better so you don't trade like that.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Lavani]

If you aren't using airtight strings it's your job to play with that in mind instead of autopiloting the string and expecting everything to go perfectly for you. If you get to a point in your string where you expect Mario to try to nair out, you can shield the nair and punish accordingly.

Also Rosalina hasn't been able to command Luma while grabbed as far back as 1.0.4, either. Slow pummels can sometimes let her mash out a Luma attack for odd reasons, but fast ones or pummels that happen to hit Luma as well aren't bothered by it. Rule of thumb is that Rosalina can't command Luma while grabbed or in hitstun.

 

[Shaya]

Very few characters are "messed up" by the 3 frames (or around there) aerials. Some are, mind you, in a similar way to "everything I do is punished on hit" which existed in Brawl. It's really only a notable thing with jabs most of the time.

Eventually... you learn to deal with it or the character you're trying to use just isn't cut out to succeed (poor Falco jab).
It's obviously a very good option, but understanding that while you may not have the guaranteed follow up hit in terms of safety, I'd hazard a guess that 90% or more of these interactions are still in a frame advantage for the attacker, but your fastest and only safe option is to shield (or dodge). You'd be surprised how quickly a player adapts to that awkward situation and it usually ends up coming out in the attackers favour.

Example
Fox's 1-2 jab. ZSS can just hold A and jab Fox between repetitions. Lord knows why shielding doesn't do it, but I don't make the rules.
Now, typical low-mid level Fox will just get mad that he can't get a free down smash or continual jabs on ZSS, likely complaining about it and calling the match up 70:30 ZSS favour.
Meanwhile, SmartFox decides to shield instead of going for another jab, and hence gets a free punish on my jab (or any other attack whatsoever) that I use, i.e. a grab or more jabs, or Up smashes if he feels keen.
I can try to mix up/anticipate and either shield (so it's a shield vs shield, where fox would've come up first hence he's at a frame advantage over all, plus he has a grab, I don't, please understand) or dodge away, neither of which really gets me anything whatsoever to punish Fox, actually it's me maintaining a disadvantageous situation no matter how I spin it.

So suddenly a "omg ZSS is so stupid, punishes my jab 100% of the time", turns into sadness for me and an advantage for Fox essentially no matter what I do as long as Fox knows what they're doing.

 

[DanGR]

Nitpicking here, @ Lavani but Luma can act before Rosalina, following/during(?) hitstun.

 

[Lavani]

Nitpicking here, @ Lavani but Luma can act before Rosalina, following/during(?) hitstun.

I've been under the impression that Rosalina can command Luma starting from when she can airdodge out of hitstun, which I guess technically isn't when she should be able to attack but is in line with when she's able to act.

I haven't formally tested it or anything though, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[thehard]

@Unknownkid Somewhere around here: http://www.twitch.tv/abadango/b/665852117?t=1h35m14s

As a side note, Coco the Olimar is going to donate the remainder of Abadango's EVO money once the deadline is ~10 days left.

 

[TriTails]

Why do everyone keep complaining about Luigi's B-air?

If you don't want to get hit by it out of a D-throw, DI AWAY.

I mean, Doc has a better one. He has better airspeed, better shorthop height, LESS ENDLAG, and about the same power. No one complains about his? I think he can even RAR B-air out of his D-throw (I did it once, just not at KO percents).

I mean, Luigi's B-air actually REQUIRES a commitment to pop out. Whiff and you're getting punished. That's not the case with Doc or Mario, nor any of his aerials sans N-air.

And everyone keeps forgetting on how he has 3-7 MU. Or how hard it is for him to approach if forced (SHEIK!!!). Get rid of me this 3-7 MU with Mega and I approve he is about top tier, and probably deserve a small nerf, but no.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I've been under the impression that Rosalina can command Luma starting from when she can airdodge out of hitstun, which I guess technically isn't when she should be able to attack but is in line with when she's able to act.

I haven't formally tested it or anything though, correct me if I'm wrong.

This makes a great deal of sense, actually.

 

[Shaya]

"I mean, Luigi's B-air actually REQUIRES a commitment to pop out"
Jumping and using an aerial at all is a commitment, especially against grounded opponents which usually requires waiting until jump apex.

So I wouldn't consider a reactable guaranteed follow up a commitment like you want it to be, @ TriTails .

 

[Pyr]

Why do everyone keep complaining about Luigi's B-air?

If you don't want to get hit by it out of a D-throw, DI AWAY.

100% to be fair, a RAR Bair hits DI Away at the percents where it's your best option out of D-Throw. That said, it becomes a matter of making a read over a guarantee.

 

[DanGR]

@ Lavani Yeah she can act at least at the time when Rosalina can airdodge. I can't test it right now to confirm, but it has seemed in the past that she can attack before Rosalina can airdodge. I shouldn't write that as an absolute truth though.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Today, I made an amazing comeback against my friend's Sheik, who had a 2 stock advantage and was at like, 16% max. I was playing Fox, who I didn't play all sets but I totally whipped him on the last stock and was just amazed how strong this character is. Am defnitely gonna try him out more.

Am feeling though that Diddy is still easily Top 5, but not the overall best character anymore. Even before the patch, I thought Sheik was better. Diddy has overall good matchups, but like in Brawl, he also goes even to a lot of characters. He has 6-4 at best and overall 5-5 matchups maybe most of them being around 55-45ish to. Which is great, and I lovd my character because of it. But without added versatility with his Customs, he is not the best character. Still think he's better than Luigi. Not sure about Pikachu, they could be even or either is 2nd other 3rd.

Also why is Luma's F Smash so damn powerful?

Btw am thinking Sheik will get further nerfed next patch so am quite sure she won't forever be the best, but people sure are complaining less about her than y'all did with Diddy. Am thinking it's quite clear though that right now we can consider Sheik as the current best character in the game.

 

[Shaya]

come on @ Diddy Kong , you know as well as I do how absolutely bonkers Diddy was, whatever weaknesses he had, they weren't worth a damn a thing considering his strengths. Sheik has time and time again been shown to struggle with her weaknesses at all levels of play.

Like, we dislike Luigi's grab game and ability to get the grab, we dislike Brawler getting confirms into kills at absurdly low percent.
Diddy was both of these things, better than both of them at those things, and was still on a much stronger overall kit.

So with that in mind, I will FIND YOU AND GET YOU if you even remotely dare to start a "please, will someone think of the poor abused Monkeys" campaign.

 

[LightLV]

Nair is strong at breaking combos, ya. But it's not a "press to win" button like you make it out to be.

....what?

It's...not irrelevant, though.

And you should probably learn to space your attacks better so you don't trade like that.

Informing me that an Nair'd string is in fact secretly unsafe (?!?!) isn't a particularly huge reveal, i think it would be obvious the moment i magically got kicked for it.

As for why i called it irrelevant? Because none of anything you guys said changes anything about what I said. They can punish strings that other characters are forced to DI or airdodge, were they to keep attacking. I thought this was a simple enough observation. But i mean, if i'm wrong or something please let me know. Mario/Luigi are top-tier for a good reason, and this is just one of many -- they have silly frame data. Don't think I've ever met anyone who argued against that until now.

Very few characters are "messed up" by the 3 frames (or around there) aerials. Some are, mind you, in a similar way to "everything I do is punished on hit" which existed in Brawl. It's really only a notable thing with jabs most of the time.

Eventually... you learn to deal with it or the character you're trying to use just isn't cut out to succeed (poor Falco jab).
It's obviously a very good option, but understanding that while you may not have the guaranteed follow up hit in terms of safety, I'd hazard a guess that 90% or more of these interactions are still in a frame advantage for the attacker, but your fastest and only safe option is to shield (or dodge). You'd be surprised how quickly a player adapts to that awkward situation and it usually ends up coming out in the attackers favour.

Example
Fox's 1-2 jab. ZSS can just hold A and jab Fox between repetitions. Lord knows why shielding doesn't do it, but I don't make the rules.
Now, typical low-mid level Fox will just get mad that he can't get a free down smash or continual jabs on ZSS, likely complaining about it and calling the match up 70:30 ZSS favour.
Meanwhile, SmartFox decides to shield instead of going for another jab, and hence gets a free punish on my jab (or any other attack whatsoever) that I use, i.e. a grab or more jabs, or Up smashes if he feels keen.
I can try to mix up/anticipate and either shield (so it's a shield vs shield, where fox would've come up first hence he's at a frame advantage over all, plus he has a grab, I don't, please understand) or dodge away, neither of which really gets me anything whatsoever to punish Fox, actually it's me maintaining a disadvantageous situation no matter how I spin it.

So suddenly a "omg ZSS is so stupid, punishes my jab 100% of the time", turns into sadness for me and an advantage for Fox essentially no matter what I do as long as Fox knows what they're doing.

This is way more along the lines of what i was getting at.

So yeah, you can "deal with it", but quoting me and spinning it as if it suddenly isn't really an advantageous thing for the Mario Brothers just because you "know ways around it" is saying a whole lot of nothing.

Because, assuming you're playing competent people, no amount of "adapt ur stringz" or "lolspacing" is really going to take that away from them.

 

[Shaya]

So yeah, you can "deal with it", but quoting me and spinning it as if it suddenly isn't really an advantageous thing for the Mario Brothers just because you "know ways around it" is saying a whole lot of nothing.

Because, assuming you're playing competent people, no amount of "adapt ur stringz" or "lolspace" is really going to take that away from them.

Knowing ways around it says a whole lot of nothing?
Are you even thinking when you type your complaints?

I'm pretty sure a competent player getting power shield punishes is something causing adaption at top level of play for the entirety of Brawl's history and the same thing will happen here once game understanding settles (otherwise, I could go over the issues with characters dealing with Falcon's jab, and there will literally be significantly less choices for someone to make to deal with it in comparison to here)


So let's put this into a more literal form for you.
Options for Mario or Luigi:
Get hit
Use aerial because you don't know how to deal with this dynamic
You're too scared/respect them too much so they jump and or airdodge away (etc); another hint: don't punish the action you know that's coming, punish the action that's likely to happen after the sure fire one.

Meanwhile, you, the player, in an advantageous position, with a frame advantage, possibly on the ground has their entire moveset and movement options to choose from. Not all will be usable, but I really doubt the existence of dodges, shields (likely perfect/power shielding), walking/dashing away or through them, hint hint hint plus everything else puts you down to "get hit for trying or don't do anything and now it's back to neutral".

If I was going to complain about this dynamic on anyone, it would be Villager with their down air and nair. Fast, huge disjoints, no landing lag, great rewards, great damage, usually safe on shield, covers nearly all angles for hitting them from.
Wifi exemplifies this frustrating situation because single button inputs are always going to win vs intricate/precise actions will in delay. Moral of the story? Know something is harder than it should be and don't give a crap because it's Wifi, as it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

In other words, the only spinster here is you.

Related:

Sure it's Street Fighter and other traditional 2D fighters, but a lot of this can be applied to high-level Smash as well. Wondering why a mashing Mario/Luigi is beating out your **** with a nair? Watch and learn.

Smooth Criminal

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I wish they could've just copy-pasted Brawl DK and give him Smash 4 DK's Side B, Up B and Dash Attack. That way, DK might've been a much much stronger secondary to me. It's such a shame that the likes of Bowser are now even faster than him, while he totally outclassed Bowser in everything in Brawl. I MISS DK BEING KING OF HEAVYWEIGHTS MAN!

DK is pretty bad in Smash 4 but that never really stopped me.
WiiU: $300.
Smash: $60.
Monitor: $100.
Mayflash adapter: $30.
Hours put into DK: 200+
The look on the opponents face if you win: Priceless.

And tbh, once you use a character for so long, and you start getting used to their flaws, they start to matter less and less and you begin to discover cool stuff. I started figuring out that DK's Nair actually has more uses then I thought (edgeguarding, approach mixups, jab reset setups). I began to realize that DK's Bair combos into itself at nearly any percent when spaced correctly. You can even Wall of Pain with it :o
I started using his D-tilt trips to set up tech chases and grabs. I now regularly use U-tilt as a combo starter (seriously, it's slow but has a lot of hitstun. It can hit confirm Bair strings)

Oh, and his Customs are broken, so that's the cherry on top.

Am I saying DK is viable as a solo main? Lol no. But he has some very rewarding tools and to me, he's worth the work you gotta put in to main him. The same can be said with any low-tier. In the end, if you want to win tourneys, stick with the tier list. But if you're like me, and like competitive smash while having fun with it, then don't let nerfs from Brawl prevent you from putting work into a character you like. BUT I'd refrain from solo maining someone like DK. Sheik runs circles around the King of Swing XD
Anyways, random rant over.

 

[Ffamran]

For the complaints about Mario and Luigi's fast Nairs, they're not the only ones who can do this. Everyone knows Yoshi can and we definitely shouldn't forget about Dr. Mario. Characters with frame 3 Nairs include: Dr. Mario, Falco, Luigi, Mario, Mii Fighter, Villager, Pac-Man, Pikachu, Sheik, Yoshi. Remember this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/list...-initial-frame-to-slowest-frame-speed.388564/?

The notorious ones are (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, and Yoshi, but we've seen the OOS Nair Pikachu abuses, the gliding Nair Villager throws out unpunished, and Mii Fighter's Nair has been noticed as really powerful. Everyone, but Falco can interrupt fairly well by spamming Nair. Why not Falco? Look at the list, of the 10 characters, only one has a multi-hit and not a sex kick Nair: Falco; of those 10, Luigi and Falco have the slowest air speeds; and of the 10, Falco, Sheik, and Mii Brawler are the noticeable fast fallers. Falco can't spam Nair to get out as easily since he has to connect the entire move or the final hit to get enough knockback which essentially makes his Nair frame 21 since his Nair doesn't have autolink angles - main reason why certain multi-hit moves like Falco's Fair and probably Fox's Fair connect so well - like Zelda's or have a strong, single hit like Peach and Ness. Fast fall speed and poor air speed just makes it worse since he'll get comboed quicker than Sheik who has good air speed to drift out and Luigi who's a floaty so he can drift out as well.

The frame 2 Nair guys, Little Mac and Mega Man, can mash out Nair to interrupt combos, but they're not as good since they lack sex kick properties to surround themselves with a hitbox.

Frame 4 Nairs can probably interrupt combos too, and the ones that have a frame 4 include: Fox, the Pits, Wario. Oh, and there's Diddy's notorious Uair, (Dr.) Mario's Super Jump Punch, Little Mac's Rising Uppercut, Marth and Lucina's Dolphin Slash, and unsurprisingly, you don't need a quick aerial to interrupt combos. Remember Captain Falcon? A frame 3 jab that eats through everything and if you somehow drop the ball, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, and Link can all frame 7 Nair you or Jigglypuff can Rest counter you.

Players shouldn't be mashing buttons; the attacker shouldn't go on autopilot and the defender shouldn't be panic-mashing. At the same time, yes, it's kind of stupid that some characters can get mashed-interrupted because certain characters have really fast moves, but at the same time, you probably shouldn't be holding rapid jabs for that long and if you're going for the same combo over and over, I expect the other player to catch on and counter even if it means by mashing a move to interrupt.

Here's the thing, the main "culprits" to Nair interrupts are (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, and Yoshi. Is a frame 3 Nair really necessary to their moveset? I wouldn't say so, especially since Luigi's can cheese you out since his Nair is really strong, but do they need to be nerfed to oblivion? No. If anything, they could end up with frame 4, 5, or even 6 Nairs and they wouldn't be severely hurting. The other question is who are getting screwed by these Nairs? Ike probably isn't since his Ragnell isn't part of his hurtbox, Captain Falcon probably isn't since he can just bait a Nair or airdodge and punish, and Samus does not give a damn when she can Charge Shot your dumb Nairing butt. From my experience, only Falco is screwed by this, but Falco is screwed by everything. His jab gets Naired interrupted by all of them, jabbed by everyone who has a frame 3 jab and below, grabbed by Luigi and probably more, Dolphin Slashed, Rested, Super Jump Punched, and more. Link, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf and more can fast-fall Nair him before he can even input a move to hit them, Rosalina, Palutena, ZSS, and more juggle him to death since his air speed and fall speed make him the greatest juggling pin that ever lived, and Mr. Game & Watch, Jigglypuff, (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, and Fox can cheese so much damage with one move: Dash Attack for Mr. G&W and Jigglypuff and Utilt for the rest. It's one character who's screwed, big whoop.

 

[Firefoxx]

Relatively speaking, how safe is Doc's nair if it hits on frame 3?

Edit: also speaking of bull**** nairs, Falcon's can combo from d-throw from like 0-120% (DI permitting) and KOs sheik from a d-throw at the edge at like 80%. Also since it hits on frame 7 and frame 20 you can punish air-dodges with it pretty easy, its the best~

 

[TTTTTsd]

Relatively speaking, how safe is Doc's nair if it hits on frame 3?

% and character dependent, along with where Doc is. If he's low to the ground vs. a good chunk it's not super safe, others it's fine. If both chars are high up and aren't landing anytime soon that's when things get hard to approximate. If they're at a high enough % it'll knock them back far enough regardless of positioning but it has to be at a high %, nothing less.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I like Doc's because it's reversed. The longer it stays out the more powerful it gets. I always found that to be pretty chill.

 

[Ikes]

it may be irrational but i always get a little irked when me landing an attack still leaves me open for an easy free punish from my opponent due to things like long endlag/landing lag

like with wario's dair, when I land it, if i hit the ground after the attack arc finishes, I still am left open for a very easy free punish due to it having a lot of landing lag

but that doesnt seem to be entirely sensible, since i dont see why I should be punished for landing a move.

am I the only one who feels this way?

 

[Nobie]

Mario and Luigi have excellent frame data and it's always going to be a factor, but it's not like either character is without their weaknesses or at least characteristics that require them to not just jump in and start hitting with no escape. Namely, they have fairly stubby limbs, and at the end of the day that's still going to lose to smart spacing. If your character's limbs are also stubby (Kirby, sort of Ness), then you tend to have your own weapons to fight with. The Mario Bros can in turn outsmart that, but that's all fighting really is, using your own tools against your opponent's. If you say that having superior frame data is unfair, well arguably it is, but it's certainly not the only thing to take into consideration.

Wi-fi lag is also very much a thing against those specific types of characters, or alternately level 9 CPUs with perfect reaction time. Nothing's more "fun" than getting attacked while trying to block/grab due to either of those factors, but at the end of the day those are both sub-optimal scenarios.

Though, as with many things, I think I'm heavily influenced by my Mega Man usage. Even putting aside the Luigi matchup when I see complaints about nairs breaking things up, even though I have used other characters, my mind automatically goes to "but wait, why would they land on my tornadoes/massive disjointed bair and fair?"

 

[LimitCrown]

"But the numbers 1111 on characters are their defaults, therefore 1111 on Miis are their defaults. Letting Miis use things outside default is unfair."

-Most frustrating thing I've read on Reddit in my life.

I would like to know how that argument is invalid in any way. It is hypocritical to allow the Mii Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner to be able to use all 12 of their respective special moves while all of the other characters can only use their default special moves.

 

[Ikes]

I would like to know how that argument is invalid in any way. It is hypocritical to allow the Mii Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner to be able to use all 12 of their respective special moves while all of the other characters can only use their default special moves.

because miis are allowed to use custom moves whether or not the custom moves setting is enabled, and their custom moves are an integral part of their character.

 

[Shaya]

Maybe the move wasn't intended to be used in situations where you would hit the ground after the attack arc finishes? i.e. before the auto cancel
Characters in general have design intentions for low percent, mid percent and otherwise game play. It was really really really exemplified in brawl 500x over for obvious reasons.


Also trailing back, in 's defense, I find that that the lack of kill power on forward air now is a noticeable nuisance. I think it was way toooo good before, but not killing at like 150% is such a downer, he can't really go off stage, so he can't reliably go off to confirm them, in contrast to his up air which he has very good jump heights/etc to work with the nerfs.
MEH

 

[C0rvus]

The Mii Fighter argument is frustrating because neither argument is entirely wrong or right. Yes, they are clearly meant to be used with all of the options available, but is that a fair advantage? This is why I've advocated the use of 1111, 2222, and 3333 miis. It's not the best fix, but it's kind of the best of both worlds in a way. (Any ruleset that allows Feint Jump and Helicopter Kick legal on the same set should be enough for Brawler mains, right?)

 

[LimitCrown]

because miis are allowed to use custom moves whether or not the custom moves setting is enabled, and their custom moves are an integral part of their character.

Custom moves are also an integral part of Palutena, yet she isn't allowed to use those in tournaments that don't allow custom moves. Even if the Miis can use custom moves in most of the modes in the game whether or not customization is enabled, they are not allowed to use their custom moves in Event Mode if customization is disabled, so it is the strongest evidence that the Mii Fighters have default special moves. Event Mode is not very different from fighting CPU opponents in the other single-player modes, so I think that it being the only mode that restricts the Miis shouldn't be a reason to disregard the reasoning.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

Custom moves are also an integral part of Palutena, yet she isn't allowed to use those in tournaments that don't allow custom moves. Even if the Miis can use custom moves in most of the modes in the game whether or not customization is enabled, they are not allowed to use their custom moves in Event Mode if customization is disabled, so it is the strongest evidence that the Mii Fighters have default special moves. Event Mode is not very different from fighting CPU opponents in the other single-player modes, so that shouldn't be a reason to disregard it just because it is the only mode that restricts the Miis.

Using Event mode as an excuse is rather silly to me since in SMASH mode which is the mode tournaments are played we can sue whatever mii regardless of customs but this is a really weird argument on both sides but whatever,

Spoiler

Let's just make all tournaments custom legal

 

[Antonykun]

on mii's customs moves imma just butcher a quote from @GeneralLedge
"You make a mii"
these characters are a create-a-fighter
they are designed so you can build someone to fight with and not to customize a character
Regardless of whether or not you make them default 1111 (aka APEX) that build will be there even if you make put the game on customs off
and then comes the palutena argument :/ where pretty much allowing the miis to be played as designed will star a slippery slope starting with Palutena and ending with a customs on meta.

Anyways I have been noticing that Swordfighter has two different hitboxes on his jab 1: one that pops upwars and one that slides away the second hitbox makes jab canceling into a kill confirm imposible

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

Mii Sword fighter is interesting like I don't think he's that great but super unexplored and I feel like he has some untapped potential definitely not the worst in the game imo

 

[Fatmanonice]

it may be irrational but i always get a little irked when me landing an attack still leaves me open for an easy free punish from my opponent due to things like long endlag/landing lag

like with wario's dair, when I land it, if i hit the ground after the attack arc finishes, I still am left open for a very easy free punish due to it having a lot of landing lag

but that doesnt seem to be entirely sensible, since i dont see why I should be punished for landing a move.

am I the only one who feels this way?

That's because you're doing it too close to the ground or you're fast falling your attack too late.

 

[LightLV]

Mario and Luigi aren't fun to fight strictly because their best attributes come from how hilarious their frame data is. They can literally mash A out of combos and kill you for it.

Haha, that's silly.

^ this is true.

Question: What combos are those, exactly? Just don't do gapped combos.

Well yeah, naturally. That doesn't really change their frame data. They're still annoying. That advice doesn't really change that.

Sure it does. Learn to space your attacks better so you don't trade like that.

Here is more of why you're probably getting Naired to death because It sure sounds like you are. You're just getting outplayed. Mario does not have a press to win button.

...Okay, again, thanks, that's nice, i don't see what any of this personal advice has to do with...mario...So, you're just saying, im mostly bad, and mario isn't that good?

Hey, their quick frame abilities aren't OP. They just can create some difficult situations. You can counter it if they don't know how to abuse it, but if they DO know how to abuse it, then it can really create some trouble for you if you aren't careful.

Okay, well yeah, there we go. I don't see why this suddenly became a personal imaginary critique thread when I stated what seemed to be a GENERAL good point on Mario...

You make no sense. Here's everything that can happen when you get hit by mario. Here's also some information on how good powershielding is going to be in the future. Here's some more information on how you can stop getting rekt. Now here's some Villager ****. And we're gonna end this with you not complaining about WiFi anymore, mkay?

In the most hilarious turn of irony you've ever seen, i'm going to tell you how to get better by posting a video of the most technically intensive popular fighting game i can think of to drive some point home. On Smashboards, where we hate tierlists and argue the definition of what offense is. Maybe now all those mario players you lose to on For Glory won't beat you with their crappy Nairs.

I've learned alot from this thread. I think i'm going to go practice how to not get Naired anymore, you guys are the best.

 

[webbedspace]

People keep reaching for weird arguments to justify not giving the Miis their 2 and 3 moves, like "Kirby can only copy Shot Put" and "Palutena's customs are unlocked from the start too" and "they didn't nerf Helicopter Kick" and so forth. None of these arbitrary facts have any correlation with what's best for tournaments. We're writing the tournament rulebook, not divining it from the stars, tea leaves, patch notes and single-player modes. Just say "we're only using 1111 for all characters regardless of which moves those are, because I said so, end of story" and live with the ramifications.

 

[GimR]

BengalsRZ bopped gimr right after he said game and watch beats zss.

Yeah last game last hit is definitely bopping. Everytime he got a kill was from a mistake I made. I was beating him the whole time.

 

[Pyr]

^ this is true.


I've learned alot from this thread. I think i'm going to go practice how to not get Naired anymore, you guys are the best.

Getting a certain vibe from this post. If my vibe is wrong, I apologize.

Going to be 100% blunt and honest. This is not aggressive or meant to be insulting. It's just completely blunt.

Maybe if you didn't have the mentality of a scrub, you wouldn't have to respond with hyperbole all the time and you'd learn a thing or 2.