Character Competitive Impressions

[PokemonyeWest]

Geez, I wonder why there's people out there who think Greninja is bad when his own players are still complaining endlessly about nerfs that happened more than 5 months ago as if it was some sort of tragedy even though the character is still perfectly fine and operational with a great toolkit.

Oh but it is a tragedy. Greninja became a worse character because of the nerfs. Hardly anyone plays it anymore. It'd be one thing to be complaining about Dem Nerfs if only one or two things changed but they nerfed Greninja's frame data (water shuriken, up smash, down smash, nerfed damage (up smash), nerfed knockback (up air, down smash, forward air, especially Hydro Pump), and even took out some innocuous things (running shadow sneak).

Is Greninja still playable? Yeah. But it's suffered a lot, comparative to how it was in Vanilla.

Let the record show I'm not ****ting on Greninja. I intend to stick with this character. I just don't wear rose colored glasses when looking at it.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Which characters do you guys think particularly excel at footsies?

 

[Nu~]

Which characters do you guys think particularly excel at footsies?

Little Mac. Definitely

 

[Ffamran]

Little Mac. Definitely

Oh, the irony... If only Little Mac was a kickboxer.

Marth, Lucina, Fox, Falco, Little Mac, Sheik, the Pits, Captain Falcon, Pac-Man?, Mega Man?, Rosalina, Kirby, Sonic - seriously, dude's fast, but people love camping -, Pikachu, ZSS?, Peach, and Ganondorf come to mind since they have quick options to poke people. Yes, Ganondorf has quick options to poke people. Aside from his Smashes, Specials, and Utilt, all of his poking options, which is like jab, Ftilt, and Dtilt, are fairly quick poking tools for a heavyweight. Then you have his Nair, Bair, and Uair for other quick, incredibly powerful shenanigans.

 

[Shaya]

The old "I'll outbutton you" competition (aka "I gots da priority")



Pac and WiiFit probably deserve honourable mentions. Although it never makes much sense to me how they do it.

Interestingly enough, Falco is probably the worst character overall in this grouping yet can beat out most of everyone else listed's everything except Luigi (when jab is punishable on hit, life is hard).

Common things: long range fast single "strong" hits, fast and safe jabs, transcended priority things.
Kirby is weird.
I don't know if I can honour Captain Falcon when he just presses and holds the A button on landing/ending of a move (he's using his mobility more than his attacks otherwise). But I'd say a good measure of whether your character actually has strong footsies or not is answered rather easily by the ability to beat Falcon holding the A button.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh but it is a tragedy. Greninja became a worse character because of the nerfs. Hardly anyone plays it anymore. It'd be one thing to be complaining about Dem Nerfs if only one or two things changed but they nerfed Greninja's frame data (water shuriken, up smash, down smash, nerfed damage (up smash), nerfed knockback (up air, down smash, forward air, especially Hydro Pump), and even took out some innocuous things (running shadow sneak).

Oh no, Greninja went from top tier to high tier, what a tragedy. It's not like Falco exists or anything.

Seriously Greninja is far, far from being a tragic case of a character being nerfed, not when exist. He only fell a tier, big deal.

Pre-patch Up-Smash and Hydro Pump were stupid and you can't defend them. Up-Smash still does 19% which is still only 2% short of having the same power as Ganondorf's Up-Smash and considering Greninja's Up-Smash is pretty easy to sweetspot on top of being disjointed and very easily combo'd into, that's pretty great. Hydro Pump still gimps people beautifully and is a very versatile tool even without sending people into outer space.

F-Air's knockback nerf means it can also combo into stuff at lower percentages. F-Air -> Dash Grab -> Up-Throw -> Up-Air is very much possible and does 28%, 36% if you manage to link another Up-Air. F-Air still KOs at good %s especially if you get someone near the ledge or offstage with it. I think I even killed @ Nu~ in of our matches at 80-90% with it once, rage was involved, yes, but if that's the nerfed F-Air then it probably is better this way.

You conveniently forgot to mention that Down Smash also got a damage buff.

Up-Air still kills at good %s, the only gripe I have is people falling out of it.

Water Shuriken is the only really impactful nerf. But to compensate for it we got a Shadow Sneak buff that not only greatly improved our recovery, it made Shadow Sneak quite useful as a mixup and edgeguarding tool.

So basically Greninja has to work more to get kills, something he doesn't even struggle much to do thanks to having a ridiculous number of kill setups.

Now what other character received a good number of nerfs that in general only made so that they had to work more to get kills again?

Oh yeah,

Yet Diddy mains after the initial shock realized "Hey, our character is still really good even with the nerfs he got" and calmed down, while Greninja mains are still crying over similar nerfs done to a character that they only got a chance to play with for two months at most.

I'm not seeing things through rose colored glasses, I'm seeing the situation as it really is. Greninja mains keep crying about nerfs just because apparently they can't stand not having an Up-Smash that combos into itself for over 38% on top of being able to kill people very early or a recovery move that could gimp people by killing them off the top for daring to use a vertical recovery move all on one of the most mobile characters in the game.

 

[Nu~]

How could I forget the good old Trampoline &Nair. One is a frame 3 kill move/combo tool/combo breaker/gimper
While the other is a frame one attack that says, "Lol nope" to your shield, roll, and spot dodge.

I even killed @ Nu~ in of our matches at 80-90% with it once,

Shhhhhh!
We don't talk about that

 

[Ffamran]

Pac and WiiFit probably deserve honourable mentions. Although it never makes much sense to me how they do it.

For Pac-Man: fast tilts and aerials. Pac-Man won't be hitting people hard, but outside of Smashes, his ground options never go above 7 frames; jab and dash attack are frame 4, Ftilt is frame 5 or 4 if angled, and Utilt and Dtilt are frame 7. With aerials, nothing goes above frame 9; Nair is frame 3, Fair is frame 5, Dair is frame 6, Bair and Uair are frame 9 with Uair being able to be used "grounded" like Captain Falcon, Ganondorf?, Falco, and sometimes Fox's. Also, his Bair auto-cancels, right? Then you add in Trampoline, a frame 1 get the hell out of dodge option and his Bonus Fruits to annoy and zone people.

For WFT, probably her unconventional hitboxes. Oh, you're going to hit her from behind? Jab or Ftilt. Going to zone her? Header in awkward angles. She ain't got range? Fair. Going to do something in the air? Nair. And if we add customs, then her hips do not lie.

Interestingly enough, Falco is probably the worst character overall in this grouping yet can beat out most of everyone else listed's everything except Luigi (when jab is punishable on hit, life is hard).

Oh, how I wished Falco had a Gentleman... The best things about his footsies games would be the range on his Dtilt (disjoint) and Reflector (also, a disjoint). Reflector isn't safe on shield, but not a lot of characters can boast that much range with a frame 5 move. Then you add in Reflector Void and it knocks you back like a fool. Jab and Utilt have good coverage since they're not linear, especially his jab compared to most characters which lets him hit low crouchers like Mr. Game & Watch, Jigglypuff, and WFT. The other best, but also worse thing is that Falco's Ftilt has more end lag than Fox's and it's still a good poke; Fox's ends like 3 frames earlier despite doing similar damage and having the same startup. Ahem... SAKURAI! Then everything falls apart when you realize that his jab is one of his most punishable moves since Jigglypuff can Nair or Rest in the middle of it and Luigi can jab, Nair, and grab through it not to mention Captain Falcon doing his Captain Falcon thing. Bair would be a good poking tool if Falco had air speed or even ground speed like Fox so he could run the frick away.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The old "I'll outbutton you" competition (aka "I gots da priority")



Pac and WiiFit probably deserve honourable mentions. Although it never makes much sense to me how they do it.

Interestingly enough, Falco is probably the worst character overall in this grouping yet can beat out most of everyone else listed's everything except Luigi (when jab is punishable on hit, life is hard).

Common things: long range fast single "strong" hits, fast and safe jabs, transcended priority things.
Kirby is weird.
I don't know if I can honour Captain Falcon when he just presses and holds the A button on landing/ending of a move (he's using his mobility more than his attacks otherwise). But I'd say a good measure of whether your character actually has strong footsies or not is answered rather easily by the ability to beat Falcon holding the A button.

I don't get where you say Yoshi, Mario, Doc, and Kirby really outbutton people, and how you manage to not include Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Bowser, and Donkey Kong.

And yes, Captain Falcon's buttons are good. DA, B-air, D-tilt, U-tilt have fantastic hitboxes. Sure his Jab is his main SILLY move, but the rest of Falcon's kit is above average for footsies. Ganon technically outbuttons like...EVERYONE not named Rosalina, DK, or Bowser if he's spaced correctly, even if in practice it's hard for him to always be in position.

Fox is probably the strangest character in footsies when most of his A button moves have crap hitboxes except DA and F-smash, but he has run speed, lasers, and a reflector which fundamentally change the game and let him beat basically everyone in neutral for free.

 

[Shaya]

@ Ffamran Well to be fair, Falco's ftilt practically beats Mac's entire move set, the extra little bit of lag is probably required
But still, if Falco got tuned to be closer to fox's animation speeeds, his better range on average would be pretty noticeable, whereas Fox's generally better start ups mostly negate falco's advantages.

@ A2ZOMG I think those 4 characters you just mentioned are focused on outspacing rather than outspeeding opponents (swordsmen tend to do both for free). Their neutral games are not known for beating out others directly and those attacks you mention for Falcon at least are punishment / read tools in my mind (back air though, sigh); like where are you seeing Falcon up or down tilt anywhere bar ledge trapping?

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Ffamran Well to be fair, Falco's ftilt practically beats Mac's entire move set, the extra little bit of lag is probably required
But still, if Falco got tuned to be closer to fox's animation speeeds, his better range on average would be pretty noticeable, whereas Fox's generally better start ups mostly negate falco's advantages.

@ A2ZOMG I think those 4 characters you just mentioned are focused on outspacing rather than outspeeding opponents (swordsmen tend to do both for free). Their neutral games are not known for beating out others directly and those attacks you mention for Falcon at least are punishment / read tools in my mind (back air though, sigh); like where are you seeing Falcon up or down tilt anywhere bar ledge trapping?

Yoshi is an especially obvious case of "neutral game does not beat others directly". Yoshi just has a good Jab on the ground and everything else is average to below average for him in neutral. He's carried largely by his raw punish potential and good negative state, but most characters in actual practice don't mind going for a head to head exchange against Yoshi if the spacing presents itself.

I mean Yoshi's one sorta scary spacing tool otherwise is basically F-air, but it doesn't hold a candle to most of Falcon's moveset realistically.

 

[Shaya]

I disagree.
On your points rather, I'd see the feasibility of Yoshi not being considered much of a footsies pro in hindsight. But something about being able to sh air dodge and aerial screams "the option a lot of characters wish they had for neutral / approaching; because then megaman and villager would be trash and lose to everyone".

 

[Nobie]

In terms of balancing the game/giving buffs, I had this crazy idea that maybe For Glory play could in some circumstances be used as a reference.

Simple example: A good Little Mac on For Glory with juuust enough lag is infuriating to fight. Suddenly, every time you want to punish anything, Little Mac's already recovered because the input delay makes visual cues for vulnerable frames useless. This is actually a terrible example and the game shouldn't try to improve Little Mac by making him even SAFER on Shield, but what about other characters?

Bowser Jr. I think is one character where the change in strategy required to fight him due to input delay could be a hint towards how to improve the character. Having to pre-guess whether he's gonna go with the Koopa Clown Cart, the Up B, or whatever weird combination of stuff 'n things + auto-cancel makes Bowser Jr. into a sort of Sonic-type character. While Sonic's playstyle is considered a problem on a game design level by some, that idea of having to anticipate in advance what Bowser Jr. will do in order to properly stop him and then getting seriously punished if you guess wrong could lend itself to his more momentum-oriented, aggressive style.

 

[Ffamran]

Fox is probably the strangest character in footsies when most of his A button moves have crap hitboxes except DA and F-smash, but he has run speed, lasers, and a reflector which fundamentally change the game and let him beat basically everyone in neutral for free.

Not really in my opinion since his Ftilt and Dtilt are close to Falco's range despite Fox being shorter, his Utilt is a strange move since it hits from his back, but if people get good at reverse Utilts like Megafox, it's got good coverage which already makes it a good anti-air since it's so fast and Fox's fastest jab cancel move. His raw ground speed is what lets him get away with his slightly shorter reach and we know the power of his short hop Nair and RAR Bair. The only moves with really bad range on him is Up Smash, Down Smash, Uair, and Dair as outside from Down Smash, those moves are more centered to his body. Grab too, but Fox can rush in and grab which many characters can't.

@ Ffamran Well to be fair, Falco's ftilt practically beats Mac's entire move set, the extra little bit of lag is probably required
But still, if Falco got tuned to be closer to fox's animation speeeds, his better range on average would be pretty noticeable, whereas Fox's generally better start ups mostly negate falco's advantages.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 18-22, 23-27, 28-32, 33-37 (infinite), 42-43|2, 7-8, ?, (infinite), ?
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-17|4-7 or 8-15
Ftilt|6-8|6-8
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|3-5 or 6-7
Dtilt|7-9|7-9
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|13-15 or 16-18
Up Smash|8-12, 14-19|8-9 or 10-11
Down Smash|7-9|6-7
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-23|4-6 or 7-25
Fair|12-17, 18-23, 24-29, 30-34, 35-36|7-8, 13-14, 19-20, 26-27, 32-33
Bair|4-5 or 7-11|9-11
Uair|10-14|9-10, 12-13
Dair|16-18 or 19-31|5-6, 7-8, 9-10, 11-12, 12-13, 14-15, 16-17, 23
Grab|8-9|6-7
Dash Grab|10-11|10-11
Pivot Grab|11-12|11-12

On the ground, they're pretty much neck in neck and it lets them clank the other's jab, Ftilt, and Dtilt. The only major differences between them is Dash Attack - WHY, SAKURAI?! THE DOUBLE STARTUP! -, Side Smash, Fair, Bair, Dair, and standing grab which is also the same deal with Ganondorf's dash grab - same hitbox, but slower.

In terms of end lag not IASA/FAF and landing lag, we've got this.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|22|15
Jab 2|32|22
Rapid Jab Finisher|39|32
Dash Attack|39|36
Ftilt|27|23
Utilt|36|27
Dtilt|27|27
Side Smash|48|45
Up Smash|49|55
Down Smash|46|52
Grab|31|28
Dash Grab|39|35
Pivot Grab|37|33

Similar, really similar, except the only moves I don't justify the end lag would be Falco's Ftilt and grab and Fox's Dtilt. Falco's Ftilt gets similar if not the same reward as Fox's and Fox doesn't really get Falco's awesome Dtilt rewards like... murder. Yes, murder is good.

Falco's grab hitboxes are probably the same as Fox's just like how Ganondorf's grab hitboxes are probably the same as Captain Falcon's. Fox and Captain Falcon get grabs easily; Fox's jab to grab and dash grab helped by his speed and Captain Falcon can also jab to grab and everyone knows about his legendary dash grab. Fox's throw game is mediocre since he can set up things with throws, but he can't kill with any of them, but Captain Falcon? Dude's throw game is good and his grab game is ridiculous. Falco has a good throw game and has unreliable kill throws, but his grab game is *** to say the least. Ganondorf's throw game is pretty good, but you'd kind of expect them to be more powerful 'cause, y'know, he's Ganondorf, but like Falco, his grab game is also pretty bad and kind of sad looking since it looks like he's starting to lose his sight while trying to grab something. Maybe the heavyweights should have shorter end lag or quicker grabs while the quicker characters like Fox should have longer end lag or slower grabs. Better grab hitboxes for Falco and Ganondorf would be nice too. Fox's dash grab isn't bad since his speed helps, but Falco's dash grab? His walking speed is slightly slow enough that walk up grabs are better since you don't have to deal with the slower grab frame and end lag.

Kind of the same dealio with Luigi who also has a frame 6 grab, frame 8 dash grab, and frame 9 pivot grab. Luigi's throw game is good and it's just one throw, D-throw. Y'know, I was going to ask about what makes it so that Luigi's D-throw can go into everything, but that's another discussion. Maybe a patch could make it so that his other throws get use, so U-throw allows him to Uair and Nair, but not Fair, Dair, or RAR Bair, F-throw allows him to Fair and RAR Bair, B-throw remains as a kill throw, and D-throw is now limited to Fair, RAR Bair, and Dair. Y'know, mix it up and perhaps, ironically, give him an even stronger throw game since he's going to keep you guessing on what throw he's going to use and where to DI.

Both of them can auto-cancel their Nair, Bair, and Uair, but Falco suffers more from misusing Fair, Dair hitting much later than Fox's which means the landing lag means death, Nair doesn't have that sex kick, godplayer hitbox, and Falco's slower air speed and ground speed does hurt him when he wants to run out.

Move Hit Frames||
Nair|15|11
Fair|32|27
Bair|15|15
Uair|15|22
Dair|26|25

 

[Blobface]

Ganondorf's throw game is pretty good, but you'd kind of expect them to be more powerful 'cause, y'know, he's Ganondorf

For the record, I think Ganondorf's F-throw is the most damaging throw in the game at 13.65% fresh, and if you mean kill power, B-throw kill surprisingly early near the ledge (about 120%).
what, I read this entire post and only responded to two lines of text isn't this how discussion works?

@ Ffamran , how much do you think Falco would be improved by having a frame 4 Dash Attack and normal Grab?

 

[dean.]

Ganon's fthrow is =2nd, behind Olimar blue bthrow.

 

[Macedonian]

Of all the problems falco has I really dont think the dash attack is one of them, it has way longer range then foxes to help compensate, not as good as foxes, but it hits hard and has range.


Air or ground speed buffs, laser buffs, or a Nair buff would all be at more impact full I think, like seriously falco with a Zelda/peach/ness style Nair would have me jump for joy.

 

[Ffamran]

For the record, I think Ganondorf's F-throw is the most damaging throw in the game at 13.65% fresh, and if you mean kill power, B-throw kill surprisingly early near the ledge (about 120%).
what, I read this entire post and only responded to two lines of text isn't this how discussion works?

But it's Ganondorf! He needs more power!

It'd be nice if his U-throw killed at around 150% to 170%.

@ Ffamran , how much do you think Falco would be improved by having a frame 4 Dash Attack and normal Grab?

He'd have a safer Dash Attack and a safer standing grab. That's pretty much it. He'd just be a bit safer. His Dash Attack wasn't spammable since he doesn't have speed like Fox, Little Mac, or Captain Falcon to do so which makes me question why his Dash Attack was even given double the startup. Standing grab being frame 8 when there's no chaingrabs and him already being slow is stupid. Wario's frame 8 grab is fine since all of his grabs are frame 8, but Falco's gets really slow without the speed to back it up like Fox. At least give Falco his Melee grab hit frame.

 

[Shaya]

Of all the problems falco has I really dont think the dash attack is one of them, it has way longer range then foxes to help compensate, not as good as foxes, but it hits hard and has range.


Air or ground speed buffs, laser buffs, or a Nair buff would all be at more impact full I think, like seriously falco with a Zelda/peach/ness style Nair would have me jump for joy.

When both his best (and arguably best in the entirety of Brawl) mid-range tool and best zoning tool were "massacred", it hurts. Dash attack was the bread and butter to Falco's game play at high level Brawl and having it culled like it does hurts him more than his lasers do. While I can agree having the best dash attack of ALL TIME (opinions) isn't necessary to Falco's existence, eviscerating it and not compensating him has left a pretty noticeably large hole. Maybe Falco has more range than Fox's by virtue of leg length... but otherwise I don't really feel it, speed and the animation for travel don't really contrast much, if Fox's isn't better anyway.

More aerial mobility would be godlike. It almost feels like the penultimate oversight to make Falco more Wolf-like (more spacing/precision requirements and clunkier frame data) without fantastic aerial mobility. Now that I believe Wolf is almost a shoe in, I think everything looks pretty bad for Falco if a near-Brawl copy and paste of Wolf would be better than Falco's Smash4 kit in essentially every way bar jab, down tilt and ftilt.

 

[Macedonian]

i just really dont see how a better dash attack would really help falco that much if he is still pretty slow on the ground, i mean yea it could be nice, but i just think his crazy disadvantage state while being a supper light character is a much larger concern, as is how poor his projectile is.

 

[Ffamran]

Of all the problems falco has I really dont think the dash attack is one of them, it has way longer range then foxes to help compensate, not as good as foxes, but it hits hard and has range.

It wasn't a problem in Melee or Brawl, it wasn't a super powerful cheese kill move, it didn't do a crap ton of damage, and it's not spammable when Falco's on the slower half of ground mobility and probably among the slower half of overall mobility when he only has walking speed to back up his movement. There was absolutely no major reason to give it double the startup. A 5 or 6 frame Dash Attack if necessary, but it wasn't.

Air or ground speed buffs, laser buffs, or a Nair buff would all be at more impact full I think, like seriously falco with a Zelda/peach/ness style Nair would have me jump for joy.

If Falco ran as fast as Ike which was his Melee run speed, that would be a bit better. Being about as fast as Mario would be even better. It wouldn't be major differences, but it would be better. At his current build, having a walk speed be faster than Marth would be better than having slightly faster run speed. I mean, there's not much of a reason to run with Falco when his run speed is 1.472 and walk speed is 1.28. That's a 0.192 difference... Wolf's was like this too, but I think even worse where jumping and gliding around with Bair walls was a better option than moving on the ground.

More aerial mobility would be godlike. It almost feels like the purposeful oversight to make Falco more Wolf-like (more spacing/precision requirements and clunkier frame data) without fantastic aerial mobility. Now that I believe Wolf is almost a shoe in, I think everything looks pretty bad for him if a near-Brawl copy and paste of Wolf would be better than Falco's Smash4 kit in essentially every way bar jab, down tilt and ftilt.

If Falco had Wolf's air speed which is slightly faster than Yoshi's current air speed, it would be insane... Except his high jumps might create an issue since he could easily overshoot everyone. Having Little Mac's or maybe a bit under Little Mac's air speed would be great. For reference, Little Mac's air speed is 1, rank 26-28 - tied with Robin and Rosalina - while Falco's is 0.893, rank 42. Fox had an air speed buff from Brawl to Smash 4: 0.893 to 0.96.

Wolf worked because the combination of lowish jumps and incredible air speed allowed him to abuse the hell out of aerials. Dr. Mario would love to have Wolf's air speed or close to it and he'd be "Dr. Bair". Hmm... I wonder if Seagull would have played Dr. Mario if his air speed was much better. Anyway, Wolf also had a projectile that covered the ground, moving attacks like jab and Side Smash, good range like Ftilt, Dtilt, and Down Smash, and his recovery while having sweet-spot issues, weren't as slow as Fox and Falco's.

Here's the thing, if a character doesn't make it in, you don't mess with another character and make that character a replacement or some messed up hybrid. That's Falco in Smash 4. Slower Dash Attack like Wolf that doesn't even look strong and look like it's slow: Wolf stopped to do a backflip; Falco lazily lifts a leg to kick. Give Falco Wolf's Bair? Do you know why Falco needed his Melee/Brawl Bair? Safety! It actually kept him from getting juggled to death and it was by Brawl, his own Bair. Make his Dair the same speed as Wolf's? Wolf and Captain Falcon have the air speed to use their slow Dair; Falco so much as jumps and people know he's going to Dair which means he's getting countered. Couldn't Falco have the weakest, but fastest spike in the game? Up Smash at least looks different and functions slightly different than Wolf's and Fox's. Falco even has Wolf's fall speed! Once Wolf comes back... Falco will be the first character to be a semi-clone of two characters. Never has a character been so FUBAR'd that they're a semi-clone to two characters. Was a clone of Fox and now has Wolf's stuff too. Fan-freaking-tastic.

 

[TriTails]

Semi-clone to two characters.

DOCTAAHHH MARIOOOO!

Sometimes. I think of something like 'What the **** has the devs done'. You covered Falco's. Now we has D3. SLOWEST AIRSPEED? Top lel? Second highest fall speed, massive startup on three of his aerials, and really low midair jumps. Slow airspeed? Okay. The slowest? Holy what.

Now we has Doc. RUNS SLOWER THAN D3!? And they messed up his SJP and Tornado. In a game where almost everyone's recovery can recover them from hells, he has Melee's/SSF2's recovery tier. Oh, and yeah. WHY the heck he only has half of the moves he copied from Mario deals 1% more while losing TONS of mobility and recovery. Luigi ran faster than him and hits harder.

Now we has Diddy... I wonder why they didn't notice the Up air from pre-patch. A thing that is F3, can kill below 100% with a bit of rage, almost lagless, went unnoticed until like, 4 months?

Did I mention Dark Pit's F-tilt? And Lucina's damage output?

And Little Mac. Don't even get me started on Little Mac.

 

[Shaya]

i just really dont see how a better dash attack would really help falco that much if he is still pretty slow on the ground, i mean yea it could be nice, but i just think his crazy disadvantage state while being a supper light character is a much larger concern, as is how poor his projectile is.

Because then the combination of having amazing CQC tools in his tilts and jab would be complemented by the best way to deal with that (running away) having a solid and reliable counter tool to it. Fox converts dash attacks to up airs, up tilts and more dash attacks, Falco converts dash attack into.... .... .... I forget, maybe at like 5% into another dash attack if it's a late hit on the first.

 

[Ikes]

anyone else think that Mario's autocombos are stupidly brainless?

 

[Shaya]

Well auto something and brainless are somewhat synonymous, but still irksome.
Homework for Monday Morning 9am: Greek.
But while Mario is very combo-heavy and easily combos between things, making the most out of them/maximising them is definitely quite difficult (i.e. getting a stock or maintaining positional dominance)

But if you're going to make an antagonistic character complaint, you should probably at least back it up with an explanation or the reason for your understanding~

 

[Gamegenie222]

Welcome to smash 4 Falco folks. Repenting for his sins and get crapped on. If you play the bird you a ride or die player.

 

[Ffamran]

Semi-clone to two characters.

DOCTAAHHH MARIOOOO!

Dr. Mario is a semi-clone of Mario rather than of Luigi too. Doctor Tornado was already a clone move of Mario's original Mario Tornado and Super Jump Punch being a single hit was probably a way to make it different looking since coins coming out would be weird.

The funny thing was that Dr. Mario pretty much outclassed Mario in Melee, right? He was stronger, his recovery didn't really matter in a game with bad recoveries, and even his air speed was faster than Mario's. Melee dropped the ball when making him. Imagine Ganondorf having faster run and air speed than Captain Falcon in Melee.

Sometimes. I think of something like 'What the **** has the devs done'. You covered Falco's. Now we has D3. SLOWEST AIRSPEED? Top lel? Second highest fall speed, massive startup on three of his aerials, and really low midair jumps. Slow airspeed? Okay. The slowest? Holy what.

Triple D's air speed was the slowest in Brawl too. He's strong, but he doesn't feel strong like Bowser and Ganondorf.

Now we has Doc. RUNS SLOWER THAN D3!? And they messed up his SJP and Tornado. In a game where almost everyone's recovery can recover them from hells, he has Melee's/SSF2's recovery tier. Oh, and yeah. WHY the heck he only has half of the moves he copied from Mario deals 1% more while losing TONS of mobility and recovery. Luigi ran faster than him and hits harder.

Dr. Mario also has a shorter wall jump than Little Mac. The damage thing, I think, involves a 1.22 multiplier on all of Mario's moves. Knockback-wise, so really frame data stuff, I believe they're different than Mario's, especially the Doc's Up Smash post-patch.

Welcome to smash 4 Falco folks. Repenting for his sins and get crapped on. If you play the bird you a ride or die player.

You give me power to use and I use it. The only sin I've done is abuse power. You don't make a powerful tool even more powerful, broken. Melee Blaster to Brawl Blaster is ridiculous. It's like giving Captain Falcon transcendent priority on all his moves instead of fixing how his moves work.

 

[TriTails]

Dr. Mario is a semi-clone of Mario rather than of Luigi too. Doctor Tornado was already a clone move of Mario's original Mario Tornado and Super Jump Punch being a single git was probably a way to make it different looking since coins coming out would be weird.

How Doc relates to Luigi (Smash 4-wise):
- Both have diagonal trajectory U-smash
- Both have sweetspotting Up-B
- Both have Tornados
- Both have generally higher damage output than Mario
- Both are slower than Mario
- Both have unique sex-kicks (If this counts) (Luigi's has purely vertical tracjectory. Doc's sex kick get stronger the longer it's out)
- Both have similiar D-airs (Albeit Luigi's a meteor while Doc is a drill kick)
- Both is cloned from Mario

The rest is Mario's.

Sure. Tornado was a cloned Mario Tornado, but looking at things now (Especially at Brawl's era), Luigi and Doc have been indirectly Luigified due to the change of Mario's Down-B and D-air.

The funny thing was that Dr. Mario pretty much outclassed Mario in Melee, right? He was stronger, his recovery didn't really matter in a game with bad recoveries, and even his air speed was faster than Mario's. Melee dropped the ball when making him. Imagine Ganondorf having faster run and air speed than Captain Falcon in Melee.

I don't play Melee so IDK. But I do recall Doc was ranked 9th while Mario's 14th (Luigi's 13th. What? OF COURSE I'd look at him first).

Triple D's air speed was the slowest in Brawl too. He's strong, but he doesn't feel strong like Bowser and Ganondorf.

E-xact-ly. He has massive startup in the air, yet he isn't as strong as Ganon, who has better airspeed than him. Heck, Ganon's aerials are MUCH faster than D3 has now. The only thing D3 has to offer are disjoints and range, but those don't really matter when you can't get the thing out in the first place.

Dr. Mario also has a shorter wall jump than Little Mac. The damage thing, I think, involves a 1.22 multiplier on all of Mario's moves. Knockback-wise, so really frame data stuff, I believe they're different than Mario's, especially the Doc's Up Smash post-patch.

I wonder why they decided to make a multiplier. I mean, copy-paste Luigi's data. BAM! There you go! (Obviously change some things, but you can always base on it). Not sure if this even possible though .

 

[Kofu]

The big difference between and the other heavies is that most of his attacks are disjointed (and they're HUGE disjoints). A lot of them get partial body invincibility which is similar but Dedede would be insane if his airspeed was noticeably better. He could basically approach with SH BAir because the hitbox is huge, it autocancels, and it does 16%. His multiple jumps let him partially alleviate his airspeed issues too, at least in changing momentum and in edgeguarding. Being able to change the direction he's facing in the air on a whim is also a bit scary.

He's still got a lot of problems but you have to remember that, as far as his hitboxes go, he can outbutton basically everyone and it's a combination of his awful frame data and poor mobility that he doesn't shut most everyone down.

 

[Shaya]

It's legitimately because they didn't want to put extraneous efforts into clone characters for time / cost reasons in the first place. Their likely major point of any and all "balancing" was that single 1.1 to 1.3 modifier they were working with, at least from a certain point.

Lucina's damage values are a linear modifier (around 12.5-15% more than marth's sours, it varies) that ended in decimals in like, all cases.
It's really disorientating, and so weirdly "far gone" from what the Smash original vision was. Every iteration there's more convolution. "Well if we reach the point of quotients due to this doohicky decay system, then forgoing the simplicity of integers everywhere is fine, right? Let's have two counter acting forces at the same time too with rage!!! YEAHHH"

 

[Luco]

Yo @ Shaya would you really say Ness has one of the best footsies games when most of his aerials aren't safe on block (although I'd say that he's pretty good at punishing most aerials on block himself)? Even Bair can be punished by the fastest characters.

 

[Antonykun]

I will say as a Villager main, I have to say me and a bunch of other Villagers are really bad at utilizing Timber.

 

[Nobie]

I think Falco and Dedede are similar characters. They're both slow movement-wise but excel at close-ranged combat where their reach, hitboxes, etc. are really good. Their projectiles aren't designed to keep people out so much as encourage the opponent to come in/give them something to do at different ranges that's sub-optimal but an option nevertheless. Dedede's long reach and wide arcs make it so that he somewhat covers mid-range too, while the Gordos are purposely meant to be less than ideal to give Dedede a weakness approaching. Falco has Reflector and Blaster to cover mid and long range, but again Blaster's function is to take single pot shots if the opponent tries to fall away to avoid a close-ranged follow-up, or again to discourage ranged combat.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

I hardly ever use Falco's laser except for gimping

*rekt*

well, damn

 

[wedl!!]

on the subject of characters who press buttons and win neutral...


throws fruit and you get grabbed and die. shoots gun and you die. lightning kicks your shield and your shield dies (as well as your options out of it).

 

[bc1910]

I do not intend this post to come off as "crying" but @ FullMoon there are some inaccuracies in your analysis that need to be pointed out.

Oh no, Greninja went from top tier to high tier, what a tragedy. It's not like Falco exists or anything.

Seriously Greninja is far, far from being a tragic case of a character being nerfed, not when exist. He only fell a tier, big deal.

Greninja went from top tier to mid tier in most people's eyes. In fact he's been allowed in low tier tournaments in Japan. There's a lot of disagreement over where he should be placed on a tier list but the general consensus is not high tier, it's closer to mid tier skating the line between viable and unviable.

You're right about certain characters being nerfed more over the series, but I think characters being nerfed over different games is an entirely separate issue. Every game has an entirely different set of physics. We should keep things relative to Sm4sh. I can understand why you and others would disagree with me on this though.

Pre-patch Up-Smash and Hydro Pump were stupid and you can't defend them. Up-Smash still does 19% which is still only 2% short of having the same power as Ganondorf's Up-Smash and considering Greninja's Up-Smash is pretty easy to sweetspot on top of being disjointed and very easily combo'd into, that's pretty great. Hydro Pump still gimps people beautifully and is a very versatile tool even without sending people into outer space.

Pre-patch Hydro Pump is certainly indefensible and I'm glad it was nerfed. It's fine the way it is. However I will happily defend prepatch Usmash. That move was never safe on block nor did it combo into itself or combo from Uthrow, people apparently never learned how to jump out of combos until after 1.0.4. Maybe it had a little too much range, but there was no reason to nerf the ending lag to the level it's at now.

Usmash only does 19% if both the sweetspot first hit and sweetspot launcher connect. I agree with you that that is impressive (it also retains its impressive knockback). Otherwise, it does 14% on the launcher, 11% on the sides and 10% in the middle. Not impressive damage values for a Smash Attack.

You conveniently forgot to mention that Down Smash also got a damage buff.

And I don't know if you're aware of this but you forgot to mention that Down Smash got a range nerf. In fact, all of Greninja's water sword attacks (all smashes + Fair) got a range nerf. The damage buff to Down Smash is not unappreciated but it's something of a compensation buff to an extremely nerfed set of Smashes.

I agree entirely with what you said about Fair and Uair.

Water Shuriken is the only really impactful nerf. But to compensate for it we got a Shadow Sneak buff that not only greatly improved our recovery, it made Shadow Sneak quite useful as a mixup and edgeguarding tool.

The Shadow Sneak buff does not even come close to compensating for the Water Shuriken nerf. That nerf changed our entire playstyle, removed a ton of our options in a variety of situations and was basically the mother of all nerfs as far as Sm4sh goes. Shadow Sneak is still virtually unusable against good players on-stage but I agree with you that it has increased offstage prowess.

So basically Greninja has to work more to get kills, something he doesn't even struggle much to do thanks to having a ridiculous number of kill setups.

Now what other character received a good number of nerfs that in general only made so that they had to work more to get kills again?

Oh yeah,

Yet Diddy mains after the initial shock realized "Hey, our character is still really good even with the nerfs he got" and calmed down, while Greninja mains are still crying over similar nerfs done to a character that they only got a chance to play with for two months at most.

Greninja's nerfs and Diddy's nerfs are not comparable. Diddy's kill power was adjusted similar to NTSC Melee Fox to PAL Melee Fox, whereas Greninja's kill power is not what was adjusted; his entire playstyle has now changed. He used to have so much freedom in his approach, camping and footsies, and most of that freedom is gone. His current playstyle being closer to what the devs intended or whether Greninja was ever meant to be that strong is irrelevant; the fact is he is much, much worse off now, far worse off than Diddy is for his nerfs.

If Greninja is still "really good", where are the results? Why does he not have the continued results of post-patch Diddy? I know there are other factors at work such as there being more Diddy players than there ever were Greninja players, but the nerfs to Greninja were far more crippling than the nerfs to Diddy. They are not similar at all.

I'm not seeing things through rose colored glasses, I'm seeing the situation as it really is. Greninja mains keep crying about nerfs just because apparently they can't stand not having an Up-Smash that combos into itself for over 38% on top of being able to kill people very early or a recovery move that could gimp people by killing them off the top for daring to use a vertical recovery move all on one of the most mobile characters in the game.

Up Smash never comboed into itself as I said earlier, nor did it combo from Up Throw. The jump button is magic. If that's what they're upset about, they're upset about an illusion that only worked in For Glory. No, what they and actually I am upset about is the fact that Greninja is the only character to be hit so hard by a patch that he plays completely differently and has completely dropped off in results.

I really don't intend this post to come off as crying and I can't stress that enough. I also don't want or expect sympathy from anyone about Greninja's nerfs. I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions that I don't think are healthy.

I truly respect your continued work with and support for Greninja, I consider myself a Greninja supporter too because I still believe in his top 15 potential. I just don't think it's fair to belittle the effect that the nerfs had on him, or make out that Greninja players are crying too much over them. Mostly, we're an extremely positive bunch, but sometimes it's worth remembering that this character is much worse than he used to be and sure, that's something we just have to suck up and get on with. However it DOES affect his viability.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

*coughs, scratches belly*
Us Greninja mains are a bunch of knuckleheads

Greninja is good. I just wrote a guide on our frog friend earlier this week wherein I professed my confidence it's one of the best characters in the game. I'll admit I'm salty about the nerfs, but I have little reason to be as well. I played probably 200 matches total with Greninja before the nerfs. Post nerf, I'm sitting at nearly 1,000 matches (I pretty much dropped all my other characters) and I'm pleased nonetheless.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yo @ Shaya would you really say Ness has one of the best footsies games when most of his aerials aren't safe on block (although I'd say that he's pretty good at punishing most aerials on block himself)? Even Bair can be punished by the fastest characters.

Ness is reeeeeallly small (and a lot of characters have terrible short hops in this game), and his buttons (mostly, aerials and DA and even PK Thunder if you're sneaky) are reeeeeallly good.

It's kinda a broken combination, honestly. He does have below average mobility though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ness has pretty great rolls, too. He doesn't have to commit to much.

 

[Diddy Kong]

on the subject of characters who press buttons and win neutral...


throws fruit and you get grabbed and die. shoots gun and you die. lightning kicks your shield and your shield dies (as well as your options out of it).

> with Lightning Kicks