Character Competitive Impressions

[Smooth Criminal]

Youre a mewtwo main, you should know that priority is a thing.

Dont believe me? Throw a full charge shadow ball at an incoming Samus missle, Mario/Luigi fireball etc. Shadowball is not transcendant.

Priority exists when it comes to high vs low damage grounded attacks and projectiles.

Projectile priority (or rather, strength/durability) =/= traditional FGC definition of priority, bruh

Smooth Criminal

 

[Smog Frog]

priority doesnt exist as a statistic, it DOES exist however in damage(if a move does 9% more than another move then it eats that move). however, this is completely static and is best defined as a rule of the game rather than straight priority of a move. the case of shadow ball eating fireballs/missiles/etc. is just the move obeying the rules of the game.

 

[Browny]

Sorry I forgot we were playing super traditional fighting game brothers where theres no edgeguading or jumping out of shields.

 

[mimgrim]

time for a bold claim: will become top 5 in some time once everyone realizes his optimal lame style and embrace it.

I'll make an even bolder claim. Wario is top 3.

Also Kirby is high tier.

(And before someone tries to come in and white knight me for posting a claim without any reason for why, das the point yo)

 

[warionumbah2]

@ Browny because I clearly went over the whole MU in detail in that post smh.

 

[Vipermoon]

priority doesnt exist as a statistic, it DOES exist however in damage(if a move does 9% more than another move then it eats that move). however, this is completely static and is best defined as a rule of the game rather than straight priority of a move. the case of shadow ball eating fireballs/missiles/etc. is just the move obeying the rules of the game.

In previous games yes there was that 8% interval where things clashed. But in this game we don't know if it's still +/- 8%, do we? I always meant to test it but I kept forgetting.

Does anyone know if the number changed? Specifically, I feel that there's a larger interval of damage that hitboxes clash because of some clashing experiences I no longer remember.

 

[Lavani]

It was a 9% range in Melee/Brawl and it's still 9% in Smash 4.

 

[Kofu]

Didn't Nairo play Pit all three games? Unless him opting not to use ZSS was your point.

That set had me on the edge of my seat either way. I held my breath for a moment during The Uair That Could've Been, haha. GimR's G&W is impressive, he was putting that low crouch to good use in earlier sets.

I picked a good day to watch Xanadu for the first time in forever.

Ugh why do I always have to be at work.

I'm a little intrigued how the match went in general since I (and at least a few other G&W mains) feel that Pit/Brad Pit is an iffy matchup for Game & Watch largely on account of his superior and also disjointed range. And Upperdash/Electroshock Arm being a pain to constantly space against (though I don't feel the move(s) is (are) broken it's an amalgam of cheesy design choices IMO).

Were customs in play?

 

[BiRdZ]

It was a no custom week, if I remember correctly, most of GimR's kills came from downthrow Up air.

Ugh why do I always have to be at work.

I'm a little intrigued how the match went in general since I (and at least a few other G&W mains) feel that Pit/Brad Pit is an iffy matchup for Game & Watch largely on account of his superior and also disjointed range. And Upperdash/Electroshock Arm being a pain to constantly space against (though I don't feel the move(s) is (are) broken it's an amalgam of cheesy design choices IMO).

Were customs in play?

 

[Ffamran]

Feel Tension abused the hell out of Fox's Dash Attack against VaBengal's ZSS... Can't ZSS punish that with jab, Ftilt, or Dtilt? It was both hilarious and kind of painful to see Feel Tension be able to rack up about 90% of all his damage on VaBengal with just Dash Attack. Gee, I wonder why it's so abusable? Frame 4 Dash Attack on the 4th fastest character and Falco's Dash Attack gets double the startup... Also, apparently, Fire Fox is a legit option for Fox to combo with.

 

[Lavani]

Ugh why do I always have to be at work.

I'm a little intrigued how the match went in general since I (and at least a few other G&W mains) feel that Pit/Brad Pit is an iffy matchup for Game & Watch largely on account of his superior and also disjointed range. And Upperdash/Electroshock Arm being a pain to constantly space against (though I don't feel the move(s) is (are) broken it's an amalgam of cheesy design choices IMO).

Were customs in play?

Customs were off. Here's the Twitch archive of the set (5:18:00 if it doesn't jump to the timestamp) if you want to take a look at it.

 

[Kofu]

Customs were off. Here's the Twitch archive of the set (5:18:00 if it doesn't jump to the timestamp) if you want to take a look at it.

I'll check it out once I get decent internet, thanks. I still like to see how other Game & Watch mains play and haven't watched much of GimR's stuff in a while.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It was a 9% range in Melee/Brawl and it's still 9% in Smash 4.

There seems to be some unusual exceptions with aerials. Villager d/uair beats Timber outright for some reason for example.

 

[Luco]

List of upsets at Xanadu 100 so far:
Marss > Seagull Joe
Mik! > DunnoBro
Feel Tension > Average Joe (EDIT: Character was wrong )
Ribs > Acid (is this an upset? IDK)

triumphs over surprisingly often. I think people were calling this MU even before 1.0.6. Do you guys think it could be a bad MU for the hedgehog? Wish I'd actually caught the match so that I could give a better analysis.

Mostly wanted to post about Xanadu but might as well get some MU analysis out of it, lolz.

@Earthbound360 You're an actual god. :D

Seeing as it's relevant, @ DunnoBro I'd like to ask both of you what you think of the v MU? I'm interested because DHD is a big secondary of mine.

 

[DunnoBro]

@Earthbound360 You're an actual god. :D

Seeing as it's relevant, @ DunnoBro I'd like to ask both of you what you think of the v MU? I'm interested because DHD is a big secondary of mine.

Ass in default. Ness's aerials and dash attack beat out your projectiles, so you need to try to shield grab him often, but he gets way more off your mistakes than you do his.

There's also even fewer kill opportunities than normal since DHD lacks the proper hitboxes to punish ness's airdodge. So you gotta kill him as a punish or edgeguard essentially.

In customs it's probably even, but DHD has a bad MU against all top tiers in default.

 

[Thinkaman]

I always assume that when smart people are talking about Smash, "priority" is used strictly as an abstract concept like "neutral" or "advantage" and refers primarily to disjointedness but includes all factors that cause one move to beat another.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gee, I wonder why it's so abusable? Frame 4 Dash Attack on the 4th fastest character and Falco's Dash Attack gets double the startup... Also, apparently, Fire Fox is a legit option for Fox to combo with.

It also links into nair and utilt pretty nicely. Both moves are pretty awesome setups themslves so you can just cycle around between nair, DA and utilt and deal a lot of damage without much risk. Once Fox starts throwing stuff like bair, dair, jab and grab into the mix that's when **** becomes serious. He's such an explosive character, probably the hardest to counter reliably alongside Yoshi, Sheik and Pikachu.

 

[Thinkaman]

Very few characters have reliable punishes against Mac f-smash on shield.

Fox can u-smash.

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

I'll make an even bolder claim. Wario is top 3.

Also Kirby is high tier.

(And before someone tries to come in and white knight me for posting a claim without any reason for why, das the point yo)

I agree on being higher but top 3? How so. I do think with the tools he has at his disposal he has the potential to be without a doubt top 10. But 3? Meh..

He's got a Solid Recovery, Decent Smashes, Good Combo game, Tilts seem to be legit and decent for poking. That Dair <3

one of those "I'm simple from a outside view, but when you actually use me..you'll see I've got a lot of things to use to mix up my play style".

I don't have any damage stats on him so I can't say what kills at what time.

Only things I can think that hurt him are his Run Speed.

I'm happy is getting some love since he's been sort of looked down on from past games and hasn't really had time to shine in Smash 4 at least at High level. Kirby, aside from his Side Smash and Up Smash. Has some really good frame data in terms of ending lag in his attacks.

His Tilts always are fantastic set ups for other attacks even at higher percentages like 80 - 90%. And with his Back Throw when his back is facing the edge of the stage. He's got a really good off stage game.

Bair, Nair, and Fair all are very strong and for most characters can net him a quick stock if he can connect them.

Although his Jumps aren't nearly as good as previous games, he still has 6 jumps allowing him to be a little more free off stage than other characters.

Fast Falling with Kirby and his 6 Jumps makes returning to the stage as other characters very difficult for a seasoned Kirby.

Kirby honestly has some of the more reliable ACTUAL combos in the game. Even if he's got sort of a hard time netting a kill once he's built damage.

Also being able to act straight out of his Down B, although you risk getting grabbed. You're able to Nair, Bair, of Fair straight out of your Down B..which helps prevent the move from being useless.

Only move I'd say really isn't useful on Kirby is his Forward B.

 

[BSP]

There seems to be some unusual exceptions with aerials. Villager d/uair beats Timber outright for some reason for example.

I believe Falcon can hold jab and cancel timber. Things are weird in this game.

 

[Seagull Joe]

@DumberChild
Well I never said one was "better" than the other. But Mii Brawler kinda does fit that criteria I'm talking about, I agree. You see frame trapping a dash attack follow up with up air/fair, which can lead into the same stuff as throws. I think in contrast to MK/Falcon though, he has a really low applicable threshold for "all of that" and he's looking for horizontal kills/follow ups more so than vertical juggles/kills.

But *cough cough*, I like to pretend Mii Brawler doesn't exist, lest we devolve into low skill ceiling malignant tumor discussions no one seems to like



I've called this match up in our favour for a while. Sonic just doesn't have moves with enough "priority" to hit her. Ban Smashville and watch him struggle to do anything to you whatsoever when paralyzer beats all spin dashes and he's at a great weight spec to be up air up-b'd without falling out.

ZSS has essentially the same mobility specs as Sonic, and in reality tends to be more mobile on larger stages due to better aerial mobility, jump acceleration and flip jump.

Paralyzer sucks vs . It's highly committal and gives me a free follow up if I just PS it. It's her ability to combo easily that makes the matchup in her favor. It's 40-60 's favor or 45-55. I really don't feel it's that bad. My set with Marss in winners was terrible because I played like a fool. In losers it went to game 3 last stock last hit and he won.

If shields at high percents then what can even do? Grab me and lead to nothing? The matchup requires to play a stronger ground game presence whereas most matchups can wildly spindash and jump reset with ease.

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

The Official /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results​

(S) (13.7 | ±0) (13.2 | +1)
(A+) (12.55 | +4) (12.45 | +2) (12.38 | -2)

I'd argue over ..But I've seen some of Pikachu's attacks. Pikachu while he has really strong combos. He has a hard time approaching. The frames inbetween the use of Thunder Jolt sitting at 58 frames in the air. can really out camp with his own Fireballs both by short hopping and just standing.

Skull Bash, against Luigi at least. Can be stopped with either a Fireball, which can lead into him being grabbed or stringed. A Fair, which could just be used to keep at at distance, crippling his ability to combo in general. can't combo if he can't get in. And while he has 12th fastest run speed in the game. Fireballs really shut him down expecially on how fast can dish them out.

deserves to be where he is. Still fast. Still decent combos. He's has options in terms of kill his opponent, safe ones at that. I sorta wanna say could in the future give him a run for his rank...buuuut I don't have much experience with ZSS to say that confidently so I'll leave that be.

(A) (11.96 | -2) (11.89 | -2) (11.73 | ±0) (11.13 | ±0) (11.12 | +1) (11.1 | -1 ) (11.08 | +1)

This tier seems to also be pretty legit. It seems the characters who can easily escape combos/strings are placed higher in this tier. Which is understandable completely.

has his Up B (I mean if you can even get 3 consecutive hits on the guy to begin with that is),has his normal jump or Down B..or Dair to stop any forms of following up. also can just jump. can either jump (I think?) Or use her Down B to get out of combos. And there is no way you can prevent them from doing such.
I personally put higher than . Mainly because have to fish so hard for kills like does.

Has his Uair, Bair, Up Smash (which should be used sparingly due to its lag), Fsmash and even Dsmash (which I also do sparingly due to it's ending lag). He's able to build up damage faster than and I get he is insanely Safe to use.

though ate his damn Wheaties on the transaction from Brawl to Smash 4. We all can agree in terms of Damage, and Knock Back. Yoshi's moves in general are pretty strong. Even uncharged Smashes that hit around 90% have the potential to net a quick kill.
How his recovery is I'd rather not just say it's bad or even not very good because I really need to pick up and get used to how he recovers.

But since he relies more on pressuring your opponent while at the same time having to make sure he doesn't slip up and get to many hits in. Unlike who can just relentlessly pressure you without much worry. He's gotta work to get you to kill %. Which I'd have to say isn't to bad. It's just landing the finishing move that seems to be his only weakness.

But all in all A tier seems pretty set from who's in it. Maybe minor adjusting...

Being a main. It frustrates me and I've tried. The only characters who can actually stay in these characters faces no matter where they go are probably , and them selfs.

Not saying should be placed higher. I'm just saying with how high his jumps are he can follow characters pretty easily if they jump out of a combo starter. Same with .

Question: How is the MU for vs ? I'm just curious on why is higher than him...please explain.

(A-) (10.88 | +1) (10.79 | -2)

Eh..no comment. Curious to why his so high....but is so low. And other more Melee based characters. Then is so high, possibly because of his Recovery. What else does he have that doesn't?

(B+) (9.95 | ±0) (9.82 | ±0) (9.78 | ±0) (9.68 | +2) (9.64 | ±0) (9.32 | +3) (9.31 | -3) (9.18 | -1) (9.12 | -1)

First off. The 3 character gap between and makes no sense..Come on now. I'm not arguing which of these characters are better between the two. It's the obnoxious gap between them both.

Don't they have the same weight? The only thing that differs between the two is their Side B which one is faster but hits lighter and one is slower but hits harder ?

Any way. I think , and are fine where they are. No complaints here.

Honestly not much to say about this tier in general...seems..alright.

(B) (8.85 | ±0) (8.81 | +3) (8.75 | +10) (8.62 | -1) (8.47 | -3) (8.12 | ±0) (8.01 | ±0)

(B-) (7.89 | +2) (7.73 | +11) (7.56 | +2) (7.54 | +3) (7.53 | -8) (7.4 | -4) (7.32 | -3) (7.11 | +1)

.......is 6 god for saken characters above . Seriously. Not even gonna.

I'd switch and 's spots on this list. Yes, Mac has a glaring weakness which is his recovery. But can even keep up with the onslaught of attacks Mac can dish out? 's recovery isn't what it used to be nor is his run speed. He's gotta be on his opponent like white on rice to get any real damage down.

Neutral B allows him to get back onto the ground and get people off him who will try to get him into the air. His basic Jab sorta stomps any approach from the ground that he could try and do.

UpSmash is nice for Air approaches. So dunno how really jumps higher than in this aspect.

(C+) (6.87 | -8) (6.8 | +2) (6.72 | +6) (6.62 | -3) (6.59 | ±0) (6.31 | +2) (6.24 | +5) (6.23 | -5) (6.2 | +5) (6.04 | -3)

There is absolutely no way out of all these characters. Yes. His recovery is terrible. But he's really not that bad. Seriously what the hell?

I think he stops right at . Since Should be right below in the first place. It would make next in line for who's stopping from being higher.

's Super Armor and Tilts do pretty much stop from getting in. has also gotten much faster than his previous games and can pretty safely travel off stage for a Bair and end 's stock pretty quickly.

(C) (5.93 | ±0) (5.86 | +1) (5.74 | -3)
(C-) (4.86 | ±0)


A few things I personally noticed: there's quite a few characters that actually stayed in their place or maybe moved 1-2 spots this month, I think peoples impressions are starting to settle out a bit. Though it seems a few characters are still really seeing radical changes (Kirby and Little Mac WOW) and the mid to lower tiers are having the most fluctuation.

Here are the Miscellaneous Questions!​

[collapse=]
Which character do you think has the most hidden potential?
1. - 3rd.
2.- 1st. Shulk to much to use to be truly judged this early on in the current Meta. I'll leave it at that. We just need the right person to seriously sit down and....really...Feel it.
3. - 4th

4. - 2nd.

Which character do you think is the most overrated?

1. CULT OF FALCON
2. - Diddy is pretty tame now. Anyone who whines he's still OP or Unfair is just Johnning.
3. - ZSS isn't so much overrated...I never figured she was..why is she even here?

Now someone who is probably truly overrated is . At least on /r/Smashbros.



Which character do you think is easiest to use?

1. - 2nd
2. - 1st , and most rewarding.
3. - 3rd

Which character do you think is hardest to use?

1. - 1st
2. - 4th. She's not really hard to use but you can't just grab her and play like other characters.
3. - 2nd

4. - 3rd

Which character do you hate to fight the most?

1. - 1st. I hate them both equally.
2. - 2nd? I personally love to fight Rosalina & Luma. It pushes me to my limit and helps me test my reaction time and ability to think on my toes the most out of all characters.
3. - 3rd. I don't actually dislike fighting Luigi.

4. - 1st. I hate them both equally.

Which character do you love to fight the most?

1. - Without a doubt Falon.
2. - Meh
3. - Meehhhh

Which character do you play as as most?

1. - Shockingly Falcon..He's fun to play as and I like him. I just don't like how overrated he is.
2.
3.

[/collapse]

So here you go everyone, what do you all think?​

[/quote]

 

[Smog Frog]

i think people only enjoy fighting because of his memelord status. take away that status and you have someone thats VERY annoying, dare i say almost as annoying as when played right? the character just has so many safe and annoying tools that also happen to be powerful(dsmash, jab, dtilt, bair, uair, dash grab/attack). once people see past his "rushdown" facade(in reality he's an oppressive midrange monster) he'll become more and more disliked.

 

[migul]

I posted my last post twice. My bad.

 

[warionumbah2]

So because you think mac beats MK (kirby level cute i must say) he should be a place above him?Is this reddit or smashboards ?

Really bruh, gonna compare a rebalanced MK to the Satan spawn incarnation. His recovery is still hella good to the point where a selected few can edgeguard him without dying themselves.

Your description on how MK plays in this game is way off, he is not aggressive at all. A character with that many bad MUs shouldn't be on the same level as MK, same goes for D3.

Just play the MU on any stage that isn't FD, you'll want to punch the MK player in the throat. On FD the MU is at worse even because macs ground game is God tier, but thats on 1 stage out of how many? 5 or 6? That's pretty terrible tbh.

I'll gladly play an EU mac and camp him out for 8 or 6mins, I'll play some music so I won't get bored 4 mins into my camping game. Can't stand SV music.

Thanks luco for commenting on one part of my post I didn't care about, much appreciated...

 

[Luco]

I actually don't mind SV music. Although I do prefer T&C music if I get the choice.

Anyway, if two characters are next to each other on a tier list, using the results of their MU to determine who is better is flawed.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Just to maybe end the silly argument, synonyms for priority include:

• Arrangement
• Preference
• Antecedence
• Lead
• Order

• Precedence
• Preeminence
• Prerogative
• Rankstar
• Seniority

• Superiority
• Supremacy

Pick one I guess...?

 

[Antonykun]

Just to maybe end the silly argument, synonyms for priority include:

• Arrangement
• Preference
• Antecedence
• Lead
• Order

• Precedence
• Preeminence
• Prerogative
• Rankstar
• Seniority

• Superiority
• Supremacy

Pick one I guess...?

i think its kinda important to have a discussion on priority because smash priority isn't traditional fighting game priority
but we are kinda done anyways

 

[GeneralLedge]

• Rankstar

I don't think this is a word. But I'm going to start using it.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I don't think this is a word. But I'm going to start using it.

I don't even see that in my post... I did take them off a website though, maybe it's witchcraft.

Remember when everyone was making bold claims a while back? I think I'll be brave and try one myself. Mii Swordfighter will turn out to be mid tier or higher. This character has a lot of things top tiers want and have and is only burdened by some sluggish frame data in places. Can combo for some really good damage, unique ledge guarding tools that no one else quite has (and just plain can gimp like no other), can combo into kill moves from 70-80% depending on character (I can't wait to show off up air to up air once I have it down, it's stupidly hilarious) and I'm literally talking just 1-1-1-1, with other moves he can gain even more.

Seriously, why are people trashing this character? He might not be amazing but I don't see why it took Trela to make him barely move outside the label of worst in the game for people.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's funny that you guys are arguing over priority when priority is sort of a thing in this game( Based on percent and transcendent trait). In traditional fighters it is NOT a thing. It's just super short hand for good recovery, good start-up, large hitbox/small hurt box ratio, may or may not be invincible or have armor frames, etc.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I don't even see that in my post... I did take them off a website though, maybe it's witchcraft.

Remember when everyone was making bold claims a while back? I think I'll be brave and try one myself. Mii Swordfighter will turn out to be mid tier or higher. This character has a lot of things top tiers want and have and is only burdened by some sluggish frame data in places. Can combo for some really good damage, unique ledge guarding tools that no one else quite has (and just plain can gimp like no other), can combo into kill moves from 70-80% depending on character (I can't wait to show off up air to up air once I have it down, it's stupidly hilarious) and I'm literally talking just 1-1-1-1, with other moves he can gain even more.

Seriously, why are people trashing this character? He might not be amazing but I don't see why it took Trela to make him barely move outside the label of worst in the game for people.

I guess he's just the easiest to trash on. He can't be used on for glory and nobody bothered trying him out in tourney. Snow used Gunner and plenty of people used Brawler, but before Trela nobody used Swordie. If nobody uses someone then they must be bad (smash logic).
The other day I 1v1d a default 1111 Sword main and his range is actually something I always assumed was bad but it caught me off guard. He almost won the set but I was Wario so I was okay.

 

[GeneralLedge]

IMO Mii Sword gets trashed because there's no proof to shut up reddit trolls with.

The only available resources are raw data, but if you use that as a source they point out how awful it is on a 50/50 Mii Sword, sans the '50/50' part.

In spite of most Sword users using 0/0, 25/0, 50/0, or maybe 0/x, the fact that existing statistics are based off 50/50 is what's being point to as factual evidence that the character is worthless.

Trela, in spite of this, has done exceptionally well in his locals. I highly, highly doubt any of the nay-sayers could hope to compete with Trela at all, and I've reason to believe he'd do very well in any tournament he wished (Trela vs Boss or Seagull would be hype). But because it's just his local, and because it's "free" and because he's 'just a good player', his progress is fully disregarded.

Do they need to prove Mii Sword is bad? Nope.

 

[Antonykun]

I guess he's just the easiest to trash on. He can't be used on for glory and nobody bothered trying him out in tourney. Snow used Gunner and plenty of people used Brawler, but before Trela nobody used Swordie. If nobody uses someone then they must be bad (smash logic).
The other day I 1v1d a default 1111 Sword main and his range is actually something I always assumed was bad but it caught me off guard. He almost won the set but I was Wario so I was okay.

its not just that but also Swordfighter does things in very bizzare ways while having some laughable mobility. Swordfighter being the weird one is what caused people to think of him as bad

 

[GeneralLedge]

And another thing, although this may be early to push:

So I just want to say,

If the last hit of Hero Spin would connect in the air (at all), Mii Sword's d-throw would be a kill confirm.

I just want to let that sink in.

It connects better with 50:0 than 25:0 from my experience.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The F-smash buff on Bowser Jr is super underrated. Thing is like the best anti-air in the game now, and the hitbox on the up-angled version is good enough to even hit short characters on the ground. Also I would argue Bowser Jr is actually one of the better characters at getting KOs reliably when you look at his options in the positive state. U-smash DESTROYS ledge getups for free. D-air beats almost everything offstage. Mechakoopa toss offstage is amazing for gimps and unlike ROB Gyro actually can be set up quickly on demand. Then of course there's Kart -> Up-B -> Hammer which KO confirms for a pretty generous range. His F-air and B-air also have decent autocancels and are good kill moves as well.

I'd argue that Bowser Jrs problem is that getting a lot of his kills require genuinely outsmarting your opponent and they don't come all that easily. I feel like Bowser Jr is at his best when he's barely giving his opponent room to breathe and giving them even less time to think. I feel like he's a very calculative character and one that's clumsy if he's played straight forward.

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

i think people only enjoy fighting because of his memelord status. take away that status and you have someone thats VERY annoying, dare i say almost as annoying as when played right? the character just has so many safe and annoying tools that also happen to be powerful(dsmash, jab, dtilt, bair, uair, dash grab/attack). once people see past his "rushdown" facade(in reality he's an oppressive midrange monster) he'll become more and more disliked.

I completely agree. Facing Falcon on FG honestly is worst than Sonic. Seems like people seriously put

So because you think mac beats MK (kirby level cute i must say) he should be a place above him?Is this reddit or smashboards ?

Really bruh, gonna compare a rebalanced MK to the Satan spawn incarnation. His recovery is still hella good to the point where a selected few can edgeguard him without dying themselves.

Your description on how MK plays in this game is way off, he is not aggressive at all. A character with that many bad MUs shouldn't be on the same level as MK, same goes for D3.

Just play the MU on any stage that isn't FD, you'll want to punch the MK player in the throat. On FD the MU is at worse even because macs ground game is God tier, but thats on 1 stage out of how many? 5 or 6? That's pretty terrible tbh.

I'll gladly play an EU mac and camp him out for 8 or 6mins, I'll play some music so I won't get bored 4 mins into my camping game. Can't stand SV music.

Thanks luco for commenting on one part of my post I didn't care about, much appreciated...

I can see what ya mean. I was trying to weigh just how hard he'd have to camp him out. Or if MK could even Camp out Little Mac. Then I remember just because you don't have a Projectile doesn't mean you can't camp..

I've just seen more Little Macs (skilled ones) then MK recently is all.

 

[bc1910]

If Jr's options vs shield were better I think he'd be very good. It was noted at the start of the game that this character's moveset is powerful. The problem is that he's yet another character who just loses to shield at high percent, because he's not killing you with anything besides back throw at the ledge (and even that takes a pretty long time to start killing) until like, over 200% when Uthrow starts killing. Also all of his grabs are slow, standing, dash and pivot. Imagine if Fsmash actually broke shields (and locked you into shield) like his trailer suggested... That'd be pretty monstrous.

 

[Luco]

I think if Jr had AC windows on Fair and Bair he'd be scary, and if he had a better kill throw or a really good smash attack (On the level of ) he'd be downright terrifying.

 

[Nintenpro]

If you doubt about Wario being a high tier character, I invite you to watch some Glutonny's matches !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUGCnJi1WTs&index=6&list=PLPgn9kcqTZK9Hv1xQoTJ14-P7nGUh_aL2 (Wario vs TL)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufx977t6uMo&index=9&list=PLPgn9kcqTZK9Hv1xQoTJ14-P7nGUh_aL2 (Wario vs DDK)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_1VqomVbQU&index=10&list=PLPgn9kcqTZK9Hv1xQoTJ14-P7nGUh_aL2 (Wario vs Luigi)