Character Competitive Impressions

[Browny]

You're like THE only MK who struggles with Villager, Utilt beats his Dair so we can juggle him alot of things you listed are overblown and has yet to pose a threat to MKs competitively.

This is a terrible thought process.

Just because your utilt beats dair, doesnt mean that it nullifies one of villagers good moves. You cant juggle with a tilt, the villager can just move left or right, fastfall, llyod rocket or any other thing to mix up his landing.

If you base matchups on 'my directional attack beats your opposite directional attack' then marth is unstoppably the best character in the game while Wario is dead last.

 

[Ikes]

Alright everybody, the votes have been tallied and I have the newest tier list from /r/smashbros for you all. There were no big changes in the poll or game really this month, so it will be interesting to see how people feel about the characters now that the patch has settled a bit and we've had some events..NOW HERE WE GO!

(S) - Best For Tournament Play
(A) - Solo Tournament Viable
(B) - Tournament Viable With Secondaries
(C) - Niche Use
(D) - Not Tournament Viable
(F) - Never Use

Below I do have splits into + and - tiers, and while I don't think they need to be split up THAT much, that's what the numbers showed in comparison for the vote, so just consider them the characters people think are a bit better or worse than the others in their respective categories.

The Official /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results​

(S) (13.7 | ±0) (13.2 | +1)
(A+) (12.55 | +4) (12.45 | +2) (12.38 | -2)
(A) (11.96 | -2) (11.89 | -2) (11.73 | ±0) (11.13 | ±0) (11.12 | +1) (11.1 | -1 ) (11.08 | +1)
(A-) (10.88 | +1) (10.79 | -2)
(B+) (9.95 | ±0) (9.82 | ±0) (9.78 | ±0) (9.68 | +2) (9.64 | ±0) (9.32 | +3) (9.31 | -3) (9.18 | -1) (9.12 | -1)
(B) (8.85 | ±0) (8.81 | +3) (8.75 | +10) (8.62 | -1) (8.47 | -3) (8.12 | ±0) (8.01 | ±0)
(B-) (7.89 | +2) (7.73 | +11) (7.56 | +2) (7.54 | +3) (7.53 | -8) (7.4 | -4) (7.32 | -3) (7.11 | +1)
(C+) (6.87 | -8) (6.8 | +2) (6.72 | +6) (6.62 | -3) (6.59 | ±0) (6.31 | +2) (6.24 | +5) (6.23 | -5) (6.2 | +5) (6.04 | -3)
(C) (5.93 | ±0) (5.86 | +1) (5.74 | -3)
(C-) (4.86 | ±0)


A few things I personally noticed: there's quite a few characters that actually stayed in their place or maybe moved 1-2 spots this month, I think peoples impressions are starting to settle out a bit. Though it seems a few characters are still really seeing radical changes (Kirby and Little Mac WOW) and the mid to lower tiers are having the most fluctuation.

Here are the Miscellaneous Questions!​

[collapse=]
Which character do you think has the most hidden potential?
1.
2.
3. /

Which character do you think is the most overrated?

1.
2.
3.

Which character do you think is easiest to use?

1.
2.
3.

Which character do you think is hardest to use?

1.
2.
3. /

Which character do you hate to fight the most?

1.
2.
3. /

Which character do you love to fight the most?

1.
2.
3.

Which character do you play as as most?

1.
2.
3.

[/collapse]

So here you go everyone, what do you all think?​

I dont think you gave the poll enough time

next time id suggest letting the poll ride out for more than one day, maybe through the work week and then see the results

as it stands a lot of people couldve missed the poll and the list could very easily have been much different as a result

some questionable results I see are things like brawler being as low as he is, pit being that much higher than dark pit (they should really be within a 3 space window of each other honestly), Mii Sword being so low after the results we've seen from Trela, and to an extent, Wario not being in A tier.

 

[scratch428]

I don't get why peach has so much "hidden potential". I just don't see it. I've played around with her a bit on 3DS.

Her float is obviously the unique mechanic that makes peach different, but I don't see much potential with it. Floating to begin with usually puts you at a slight disadvantage because you've already committed to the float. Shielding and grabbing, two very important parts of Smash 4's playstyle, are taken out of the equation. You can't pressure shield with fair because the landing lag combined with no shield stun makes it so you can't string fair-->jab/d-smash. Peach can get shieldgrabbed like nobody's business when trying to pressure from float. One of the only options I've found is to do like retreating dairs while floating.

Her turnips are also disappointing. Stupidly long pull time and a disabled toddler could throw farther than peach throws her turnips.

It seems like her only notable move is d-tilt, which is a solid set up move. But I haven't seen peach be able to capitalize much more than a fair or a weak nair-->something else off a d-tilt.

It seems like everything which makes her great in melee is no longer present in smash 4: options from float, combos, matchups against high tiers, double jump cancel, etc. But, you never know. Brawl Olimar didn't see the spotlight until years after the game's release. Maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about since I've yet to play extremely competitively with smash 4.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I don't get why peach has so much "hidden potential". I just don't see it. I've played around with her a bit on 3DS.

Her float is obviously the unique mechanic that makes peach different, but I don't see much potential with it. Floating to begin with usually puts you at a slight disadvantage because you've already committed to the float. Shielding and grabbing, two very important parts of Smash 4's playstyle, are taken out of the equation. You can't pressure shield with fair because the landing lag combined with no shield stun makes it so you can't string fair-->jab/d-smash. Peach can get shieldgrabbed like nobody's business when trying to pressure from float. One of the only options I've found is to do like retreating dairs while floating.

Her turnips are also disappointing. Stupidly long pull time and a disabled toddler could throw farther than peach throws her turnips.

It seems like her only notable move is d-tilt, which is a solid set up move. But I haven't seen peach be able to capitalize much more than a fair or a weak nair-->something else off a d-tilt.

It seems like everything which makes her great in melee is no longer present in smash 4: options from float, combos, matchups against high tiers, double jump cancel, etc. But, you never know. Brawl Olimar didn't see the spotlight until years after the game's release. Maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about since I've yet to play extremely competitively with smash 4.

dtilt to fair is the easiest to do. Instead you can go for a lock with the nair if you're opponent doesnt tech the weak hit or go into a dair after the tilt into a fair, you can go into a dair into an up air spike to reset. You get a lot of stuff from dtilt. If she is getting shield grabbed out of float, that means she is too low with it. If you can space dair right you can pressure well. Its not safe as it can be punished but its there. Turnips do have a little too much start up but you can use them to extend combos in this game and get a little help fighting people with disjoints. back to dair if you can get the hit then you can get some resets and go from there. I think its going to take some more time before she gets some results. She'll still have issues with a bit of top tier but peach will be okay.

 

[Thinkaman]

Shielding and grabbing, two very important parts of Smash 4's playstyle, are taken out of the equation.

Yes. For the opponent!

Peach can totally safely pressure shield during float, it's practically the point.

This is why Brawl Peach performed so... tolerably against Brawl's uber-grabbers.

 

[NextPain]

And when you lose to a ton of top tiers, Including all 3 characters viewed as the top 3, you probably aren't the best character. It's mainly because he has exactly 1 reliable kill move on the ground, and the fact that you're automatically dead offstage against an ambitious edgeguarder or any Villager/Rosalina. And most top tiers have great edgeguarding games. In short, Ness destroys the low tiers but is destroyed by the top tiers, which is why he is so low.

PK fire is a decent edge guarding and it can also stop approaches

 

[Smooth Criminal]

PK fire is a decent edge guarding and it can also stop approaches

Shielding/Powershielding it would love to have a word with you about "stopping approaches," and that's not even including the top tiers that have the mobility/options to completely ignore Ness' zoning entirely.

You're also better off going out there and fishing for edgeguards with aerials instead of PK fire, man.

Ness is good, yes, but he's not that good.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ShuckleBoard]

PK fire is a decent edge guarding and it can also stop approaches

PK Fire is very punishable by shielding and is beaten by short hop to attack on lag-ridden Ness. Edge guarding wise PK Thunder is much safer and is still very punishable is your opponent is fast. PK Fire off stage is very telegraphed and avoidable so you really should'nt be getting hit by it. My 2 cents as a Ness main.

 

[Ikes]

Honestly I was hoping so but even with his Customs that help his recovery. Someone at High level play will easily be able to gimp him. Even though his Custom Up B's help his recovery. The lack of Cape Stalling still makes him an easy killable character.

I mean I personally think he's got sort of a chance..but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

I imagine his best setup would be Ol' One Two for frame 1 kills, Soaring Tornado or Regular Tornado, Breezy Sheet or Regular Sheet, and regular vitamins or fast vitamins

so
2332
2331
1332
1331
2132
2131
1132
1131

would those all be tournament viable? tell me if im wrong about them

i mean his specials seem to negate a lot of his weaknesses to some degree, and the fact that dthrow reliably combos into up-b makes ol one two a very scary kill move, especially since stock still kills at kill percents

Brother mains Dr. Mario and we go even in most matches, but he still refuses to use breezy sheet though since it ruins his cape to fsmash mixups that he somehow pulls off on so many people

 

[Nobie]

My amateur game design pet peeve is when people completely dismiss Rage as inherently and undeniably anti-competitive. "A GAME SHOULDN'T REWARD YOU FOR BEING HIT," they say. "IT'S A COMEBACK MECHANIC AND THAT'S JUST WRONG."

Rage isn't a perfect mechanic, but I think some people just see it either in terms of its basic function, or they see Ness's rage back throw, and just declare BS. They don't think about the subtleties it introduces to the game, the way it relates to weight, and the effect it has on balance, especially when it comes to heavy characters.

Part of the reason Ganondorf works in this game is Rage, and it's tied to the fact that he's heavy enough to withstand hits, yet slow enough to likely get hit often. Dedede's moveset practically transforms depending on his own damage level, and he's meant to take hits in the first place due to both high weight and excellent recovery and a tendency to get juggled. Rage becomes a way for non-kill moves to become kill moves, and it's usually tied to how much abuse that character can take, such as Mega Man with Back throw, or the Pits with Forward Throw.

Sure, there's Lucario, and maybe Rage needs some fine-tuning in terms of which characters benefit from it the most. But it's not just about "worse players win because of Rage," and I think that people who dismiss what Rage contributes to competitive play are not looking at it deeply enough.

 

[Lavani]

I don't play Doc, but if I had to pick him for whatever reason my favored sets would be 2312/1312/2212/1212

Default upB is really good and I wouldn't consider any alternatives. Frame 3, reversible after the hit, kills...good qualities that are even better mixed together. Ol' One-Two does away with the B-reverse utility and has more startup.

I think both the default tornado and downB 2 are viable and matchups are probably a factor in which one is preferable, but on paper I really like Soaring Tornado's perks. Doc enjoys having an improved vertical recovery, but the move's ending hitbox is really deceptive and lingers forever (almost 20 frames, off the top of my head), on top of having even more base knockback than the default - with max rage, it can kill at 0% offstage. Default's more useful for horizontal recovery though iirc, and the earlier hitbox has obvious merit.

Capes and pills I don't have any strong feelings toward and would switch depending on the matchup, but I will say I feel like Shocking Sheet/Cape is underestimated for both Mario and Doc. Having a disjointed air-usable kill move on characters that normally have short-range hand-to-hand attacks has to have its uses in MUs where a reflector isn't needed.

 

[thehard]

My amateur game design pet peeve is when people completely dismiss Rage as inherently and undeniably anti-competitive. "A GAME SHOULDN'T REWARD YOU FOR BEING HIT," they say. "IT'S A COMEBACK MECHANIC AND THAT'S JUST WRONG."

Rage isn't a perfect mechanic, but I think some people just see it either in terms of its basic function, or they see Ness's rage back throw, and just declare BS. They don't think about the subtleties it introduces to the game, the way it relates to weight, and the effect it has on balance, especially when it comes to heavy characters.

Part of the reason Ganondorf works in this game is Rage, and it's tied to the fact that he's heavy enough to withstand hits, yet slow enough to likely get hit often. Dedede's moveset practically transforms depending on his own damage level, and he's meant to take hits in the first place due to both high weight and excellent recovery and a tendency to get juggled. Rage becomes a way for non-kill moves to become kill moves, and it's usually tied to how much abuse that character can take, such as Mega Man with Back throw, or the Pits with Forward Throw.

Sure, there's Lucario, and maybe Rage needs some fine-tuning in terms of which characters benefit from it the most. But it's not just about "worse players win because of Rage," and I think that people who dismiss what Rage contributes to competitive play are not looking at it deeply enough.

You want to talk anti-competitive? I'm glad you brought up heavies, because they are cancer for competitive play. They only have to hit you a fifth of the amount your average speedster needs to to secure kills. You put in far less work and yet get an equal or greater reward JUST for picking heavies. Anybody can charge a Ganon F-smash to cover the ledge! Worse yet, they're less mobile, so inherently less interesting to spectate. They ALWAYS have to play defensively and no one finds this fun to watch or play against. This lack of mobility, and therefore options, also attributes to a lower skill ceiling compared to faster characters. Comeback mechanics are already really anti-competitive. But heavies are just comeback CHARACTERS.

/s

 

[Shaya]

Falcon and Meta Knight are similar.
And it comes down to play style and mindset. The holes you're looking for in your opponent, the punishes you're attempting to force or gain.
Falcon and MK's dash attack contrast by the shield crossover, okay...
Are you telling me you want to dash attack into shields... that you're planning on the cross up and that difference not getting you punished (i'm sure both are punishable on shield drop unless at the very ends of their durations, in which case MK may not even cross over).
Those characters dominant tools are reactive based, you aren't really going for "reads" as much as you're anticipating or knowing that those tools are guaranteed in a given instance. The best part being that at the last moment based on what your opponent does you're able to opt for the alternative which should beat what the opponent attempts to do (shield vs not shielding essentially).

I could go on and on about their contrasts, that's easy to do. I play both characters and my opinion/conclusions are based on that; I didn't even remotely agree with Sheik vs Greninja comparisons if that helps (and then had our resident Greninja-Moon agree when I said he's closer to ZSS).
They're reactive mid-range rush down characters with fantastic rewards on success. Their rewards are different, their weaknesses are different too. They share a core similarity in their play styles that doesn't exist on other characters. Compare other great dash grabbers and tell me they have a good dash attack too with the rewards from both moves that they achieve? Sheik has a great dash grab and dash attack but isn't a vertical based character with consistent rewards from both. Everyone else you'd think of has a trashy/different use of dash attack (Sonic, Luigi) or poorer mobility. ZSS is close but her dash grab is 16 frames (meaning she doesn't/cannot play that 50/50 game reliably at all, she does other things instead).

Marth and Meta Knight were similar in Brawl but it's not like they were identical. They just had some of the most potent mid range options in the game, godlike out of shield options (punishment tools) and amazing pokes/spacing tools for close range. They were very similar but also excessively different; very few MK players could just play Marth out of the box and vice versa. Similar thing here between Falcon and MK now.

 

[Browny]

Rage is dumb when the character at 100% has a fairly large advantage compared to an opponent at 99%. Thats when its bad, otherwise its perfectly balanced and even for both players since they benefit from it the same.

Also Mewtwo doesnt need buffs as if he is fundamentally flawed without them.

Hes a lightweight, so what, hes always been. Good players just deal with it.

Wario has really short range, good players deal with it.
Shulk has horrible frame data, good players deal with it.
Little mac cant recover, good players deal with it.

Having low weight just means you have to play more defensive like jigglypuff does. The way I see it, Mewtwo is packing at least one 26% free damage hit in shadow ball per stock, That balances out the fact that he dies about 15% earlier than what you might expect him to die at.

If diddy was nerfed to be lighter than Jpuff hes still be a very good character, he just needs to be a bit more careful and less reckless. Thats it, Mewtwo requires a precise, careful playstyle just like little mac does. You go aggro, youre gonna get wrecked.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Rage is dumb when the character at 100% has a fairly large advantage compared to an opponent at 99%. Thats when its bad, otherwise its perfectly balanced and even for both players since they benefit from it the same.

lolwut? Rage linearly scales from 50% to 150%, there's no threshold where you suddenly get full rage. The red smoking effect (which does trigger at 100%) is just the game telling you "this character is heavily damaged."

 

[Pyr]

Rage is dumb when the character at 100% has a fairly large advantage compared to an opponent at 99%. Thats when its bad, otherwise its perfectly balanced and even for both players since they benefit from it the same.

I'm sorry, but how does that 1% translate into a "huge advantage?" It's not like rage is some on/off switch based on percentages.

Edit: @ ParanoidDrone , why did you beat meh? D=

Edit2: On rage, it's kinda unique. At 100% or so, Luigi's combo game changes against the cast. I think that there is a lot of subtly lost on people who view it as a mechanic that aids in killing and killing only.

 

[Browny]

I guess its not just me then since just about every commentator makes that mistake talking about the 100% threshold

meh.

 

[Shaya]

It's one of those things that have been a misconception since day 1 that's been excessively hard to get everyone on the same page for.
I hear it a lot less than I did but still from time to time it comes up "oh he's in rage mode now!"

Perhaps there's also a misinterpretation from people hearing it these days too.
When someone says "they're at 100% rage, things could be getting scary right now"
I'm thinking, yeah, it's about half way through rage, and kill moves are starting to become noticeably stronger / requiring conscious thought over. While others who aren't aware it's scaling from 39% don't think differently about it at all.

Marth up throw kills at 180% at no rage but at around 130% with full rage. At 100% i'm thinking 150%ish for kiling the opponent, and before that I'm not really looking at up throw KOs at all. If I'm around 80% instead I'll be skeptical and may still think it's feasible (on super light weights). But If I'm commentating a match I'm really only noting such things at around 100% just by habit.

 

[Jams.]

Falcon and Meta Knight are similar.
And it comes down to play style and mindset. The holes you're looking for in your opponent, the punishes you're attempting to force or gain.
Falcon and MK's dash attack contrast by the shield crossover, okay...
Are you telling me you want to dash attack into shields... that you're planning on the cross up and that difference not getting you punished (i'm sure both are punishable on shield drop unless at the very ends of their durations, in which case MK may not even cross over).
Those characters dominant tools are reactive based, you aren't really going for "reads" as much as you're anticipating or knowing that those tools are guaranteed in a given instance. The best part being that at the last moment based on what your opponent does you're able to opt for the alternative which should beat what the opponent attempts to do (shield vs not shielding essentially).

I could go on and on about their contrasts, that's easy to do. I play both characters and my opinion/conclusions are based on that; I didn't even remotely agree with Sheik vs Greninja comparisons if that helps (and then had our resident Greninja-Moon agree when I said he's closer to ZSS).
They're reactive mid-range rush down characters with fantastic rewards on success. Their rewards are different, their weaknesses are different too. They share a core similarity in their play styles that doesn't exist on other characters. Compare other great dash grabbers and tell me they have a good dash attack too with the rewards from both moves that they achieve? Sheik has a great dash grab and dash attack but isn't a vertical based character with consistent rewards from both. Everyone else you'd think of has a trashy/different use of dash attack (Sonic, Luigi) or poorer mobility. ZSS is close but her dash grab is 16 frames (meaning she doesn't/cannot play that 50/50 game reliably at all, she does other things instead).

Marth and Meta Knight were similar in Brawl but it's not like they were identical. They just had some of the most potent mid range options in the game, godlike out of shield options (punishment tools) and amazing pokes/spacing tools for close range. They were very similar but also excessively different; very few MK players could just play Marth out of the box and vice versa. Similar thing here between Falcon and MK now.

Honestly I feel like tiny fits the "better Metaknight but with a worse recovery" label better than Captain Falcon. Tiny Mii Brawler has the same mid-range rushdown style with very skewed risk/reward that you describe, and similar dash attack/dash grab mixups. He can't combo out of sweetspotted dash attack to my knowledge (though it does 10%, which is good enough for Brawler), but sourspotted dash attack can combo into Helicopter Kick or fair/uair (which then combo into Helicopter Kick \o/). However, I feel like Tiny Brawler just has better rewards and easier execution than Metaknight (and better approach options aside from dash grab/dash attack). They also seem to share some of the same weaknesses (low weight, poor range overall range), though that's stretching it a bit.

Of course I could be totally off base about Metaknight's style. A Metaknight main is free to correct me about anything.

 

[Djent]

List of upsets at Xanadu 100 so far:
Marss > Seagull Joe
Mik! > DunnoBro
Feel Tension > Average Joe (EDIT: Character was wrong )
Ribs > Acid (is this an upset? IDK)

triumphs over surprisingly often. I think people were calling this MU even before 1.0.6. Do you guys think it could be a bad MU for the hedgehog? Wish I'd actually caught the match so that I could give a better analysis.

Mostly wanted to post about Xanadu but might as well get some MU analysis out of it, lolz.

 

[Shaya]

@ Jams.
Well I never said one was "better" than the other. But Mii Brawler kinda does fit that criteria I'm talking about, I agree. You see frame trapping a dash attack follow up with up air/fair, which can lead into the same stuff as throws. I think in contrast to MK/Falcon though, he has a really low applicable threshold for "all of that" and he's looking for horizontal kills/follow ups more so than vertical juggles/kills.

But *cough cough*, I like to pretend Mii Brawler doesn't exist, lest we devolve into low skill ceiling malignant tumor discussions no one seems to like

triumphs over surprisingly often. I think people were calling this MU even before 1.0.6. Do you guys think it could be a bad MU for the hedgehog? Wish I'd actually caught the match so that I could give a better analysis.

Mostly wanted to post about Xanadu but might as well get some MU analysis out of it, lolz.

I've called this match up in our favour for a while. Sonic just doesn't have moves with enough "priority" to hit her. Ban Smashville and watch him struggle to do anything to you whatsoever when paralyzer beats all spin dashes and he's at a great weight spec to be up air up-b'd without falling out.

ZSS has essentially the same mobility specs as Sonic, and in reality tends to be more mobile on larger stages due to better aerial mobility, jump acceleration and flip jump.

 

[san.]

I just started trying Brawler yesterday (1/4 height). Indeed, he is very ridiculous, but actually has some depth if you don't factor those super strong upBs.

 

[Ikes]

@ Jams.
Well I never said one was "better" than the other. But Mii Brawler kinda does fit that criteria I'm talking about, I agree. You see frame trapping a dash attack follow up with up air/fair, which can lead into the same stuff as throws. I think in contrast to MK/Falcon though, he has a really low applicable threshold for "all of that" and he's looking for horizontal kills/follow ups more so than vertical juggles/kills.

But *cough cough*, I like to pretend Mii Brawler doesn't exist, lest we devolve into low skill floor malignant tumor discussions no one seems to like



I've called this match up in our favour for a while. Sonic just doesn't have moves with enough "priority" to hit her. Ban Smashville and watch him struggle to do anything to you whatsoever when paralyzer beats all spin dashes and he's at a great weight spec to be up air up-b'd without falling out.

ZSS has essentially the same mobility specs as Sonic, and in reality tends to be more mobile on larger stages due to better aerial mobility, jump acceleration and flip jump.

kinda upsets me that the character built entirely around speed isnt even the most mobile in the game

 

[Shaya]

kinda upsets me that the character built entirely around speed isnt even the most mobile in the game

But 16 frame grab. Please understand.

 

[Jams.]

@ Shaya Oh whoops kyokoro_pamuyo made that comment about Falcon and Metaknight. I don't know why I thought it was you. I blame red names.

I guess I was thinking more about the strength and reliability of their combo game moreso than the direction. Upon further reflection though, I see that there are significant differences between a vertical and a horizontal based combo game. What do you mean by "low applicable threshold"? Did you word it that way to be politically correct? I agree Mii Brawler's skill floor is way too low; you can do a lot just by running around dash grabbing and then executing super easy reliable combos once you inevitably grab them. At the same time, the counter-Mii Brawler metagame barely exists, and it's possible his combo game eventually gets nullified (or becomes less brain dead at least) with good DI.

 

[Shaya]

I meant that his sweetspot for success is a much smaller range, while grab game/dash attack pressure and follow ups are almost always available to Falcon/MK (because they have better vertical tools, essentially).

Also, I'm going to say this more blatantly.
But G&W is a high/top tier character in capabilities who is a low/bottom tier by virtue of his weight.
If that character survived for 10% longer or killed 10% earlier on average? People would be complaining about him, a lot. To me he is the most glass cannon character in the game.

GIMR was probably like 2-3% off (A PUMMEL OR TWO) from dthrow upairing killing Pit, he just survived at 88%. He would've won that set. It's crazy to even think about it, when if he didn't mess up one down throw earlier in the game he probably would've also had the difference needed to win.
GAH.

 

[thehard]

GimR almost beat Nairo, oh lord. That would have not only been a huge upset but an affirmation of GimR's belief that ZSS struggles vs. G&W.

 

[Djent]

But Nairo went (unless you're referring to his MU avoidance).

 

[thehard]

I COULD HAVE SWORN...nvm. I guess I'm just tired. Pretend I meant the latter @ Djent

 

[Lavani]

GimR almost beat Nairo, oh lord. That would have not only been a huge upset but an affirmation of GimR's belief that ZSS struggles vs. G&W.

Didn't Nairo play Pit all three games? Unless him opting not to use ZSS was your point.

That set had me on the edge of my seat either way. I held my breath for a moment during The Uair That Could've Been, haha. GimR's G&W is impressive, he was putting that low crouch to good use in earlier sets.

I picked a good day to watch Xanadu for the first time in forever.

 

[Shaya]

It is the 100th Xanadu, double the average viewers, like 3x or more the entrants. Pretty hype tournament.

 

[David Viran]

BengalsRZ bopped gimr right after he said game and watch beats zss.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't play Doc, but if I had to pick him for whatever reason my favored sets would be 2312/1312/2212/1212

Default upB is really good and I wouldn't consider any alternatives. Frame 3, reversible after the hit, kills...good qualities that are even better mixed together. Ol' One-Two does away with the B-reverse utility and has more startup.

I think both the default tornado and downB 2 are viable and matchups are probably a factor in which one is preferable, but on paper I really like Soaring Tornado's perks. Doc enjoys having an improved vertical recovery, but the move's ending hitbox is really deceptive and lingers forever (almost 20 frames, off the top of my head), on top of having even more base knockback than the default - with max rage, it can kill at 0% offstage. Default's more useful for horizontal recovery though iirc, and the earlier hitbox has obvious merit.

Capes and pills I don't have any strong feelings toward and would switch depending on the matchup, but I will say I feel like Shocking Sheet/Cape is underestimated for both Mario and Doc. Having a disjointed air-usable kill move on characters that normally have short-range hand-to-hand attacks has to have its uses in MUs where a reflector isn't needed.

Shocking Sheet is garbage on Doc. Tried it. It actually has less range than Mario's Shocking Cape, and this makes it worthless for spacing. Doc much prefers Breezy Sheet instead, which actually helps him get out of some juggle situations instead with the giant windbox.

Shocking Cape on the other hand is top tier. The range combined with the horizontal momentum amplification is SUPER good and has to be respected in neutral, plus it solves one of Mario's biggest problems: not having an aerial KO move. Doc already has plenty of good aerial KO moves and instead wants safety, if that makes sense.

 

[Smog Frog]

can we PLEASE stop using the term priority? there's no such statistic in the game other than transcendent priority. PLEASE call it disjoint because priority is a huge pet peeve of mine, along with being a much more accurate term.

now that thats out of the way, time for a bold claim: will become top 5 in some time once everyone realizes his optimal lame style and embrace it.

 

[thehard]

"that move has a lot of priority" (it has a disjointed hitbox, comes out fast, has a smaller hurtbox)
"that's gonna take the stock... nope he's not in rage yet/he's got rage now" (the percent numbers are orange/the percent numbers are red)
"lookin like melee out here" (someone did a combo)
"lookin like brawl out here" (a metaknight is on screen)

 

[Shaya]

I did put it in quotations though, just for you.

Attack animations, hitbox sizes (disjoints) and start up are what I'm terming it in this instance. Instead of telling me not to use an English word that I'm not aware of a non-awkward alternative to describe it, you could've asked me what I meant~

Sonic has like two and a half moves which are actually "good enough" to beat most of ZSS's moveset in footsies.
Back Air, Forward Tilt and Forward Smash. Forward Tilt isn't usable as an anti-air, and the other two are much too slow to reliably beat out ZSS mashing attack buttons.
Hence, he has issues dealing with the "priority" differences.

 

[Firefoxx]

Angel's Diddy was just... everywhere. That rushdown-ish Diddy seems to expose alot of Ness' problems in neutral

 

[Antonykun]

can we PLEASE stop using the term priority? there's no such statistic in the game other than transcendent priority. PLEASE call it disjoint because priority is a huge pet peeve of mine, along with being a much more accurate term.

now that thats out of the way, time for a bold claim: will become top 5 in some time once everyone realizes his optimal lame style and embrace it.

I started treating priority as an offhand way of saying this move really just beats a lot of stuff do to how the move works

 

[Browny]

can we PLEASE stop using the term priority? there's no such statistic in the game other than transcendent priority. PLEASE call it disjoint because priority is a huge pet peeve of mine, along with being a much more accurate term.

now that thats out of the way, time for a bold claim: will become top 5 in some time once everyone realizes his optimal lame style and embrace it.

Youre a mewtwo main, you should know that priority is a thing.

Dont believe me? Throw a full charge shadow ball at an incoming Samus missle, Mario/Luigi fireball etc. Shadowball is not transcendant.

Priority exists when it comes to high vs low damage grounded attacks and projectiles.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I could've sworn rage scaled like 30% 70% and 130%
Also was there a tournament in NJ or something recently? Heard Raptor beat some sheik player.