Character Competitive Impressions

[Nu~]

http://youtu.be/Oz56j_XB5f8

Sooo, ZeRo thinks that Villager is better than fox, zss, and wario?
I'm also surprised that Mega Man and Pac-Man aren't in his high tier.

Discuss or something

 

[GeneralLedge]

If Jr's options vs shield were better I think he'd be very good.

Doesn't dair have really low lag vs shield?

 

[PokemonyeWest]

http://youtu.be/Oz56j_XB5f8

Sooo, ZeRo thinks that Villager is better than fox, zss, and wario?
I'm also surprised that Mega Man and Pac-Man aren't in his high tier.

Discuss or something

Suddenly, For Glory is full of Olimars

 

[Spinosaurus]

If you doubt about Wario being a high tier character, I invite you to watch some Glutonny's matches !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUGCnJi1WTs&index=6&list=PLPgn9kcqTZK9Hv1xQoTJ14-P7nGUh_aL2 (Wario vs TL)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufx977t6uMo&index=9&list=PLPgn9kcqTZK9Hv1xQoTJ14-P7nGUh_aL2 (Wario vs DDK)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_1VqomVbQU&index=10&list=PLPgn9kcqTZK9Hv1xQoTJ14-P7nGUh_aL2 (Wario vs Luigi)

I don't think anyone doubts Wario is high tier, but thanks for sharing these! His Wario is a beauty.

Is that some bike tech I see on Halberd

 

[Thinkaman]

Did someone say Little Mac beats Meta Knight? That's Little Mac's worst matchup and possibly the worst matchup in Smash 4.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Did someone say Little Mac beats Meta Knight? That's Little Mac's worst matchup and possibly the worst matchup in Smash 4.

Worse than DDD-Megaman? Doubt it. It's awful, but not that awful.

 

[Nu~]

Has no one realized how terribad the matchup between gunner and Mac is yet?

Grenades alone can time out a little Mac.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I mean

Poor Mac is unequivocally ****ed by Meta's buttons like D3 is with Mega. However, at least D3 has a chance to recover as he's being bullied off-stage. Mac? Not so much.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Thinkaman]

Worse than DDD-Megaman? Doubt it. It's awful, but not that awful.

I played a lot of this the other day. Now that pellets no longer stop gordos, it's way better. DDD won a majority of the games we played, though neither of us were mains of either character.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I played a lot of this the other day. Now that pellets no longer stop gordos, it's way better. DDD won a majority of the games we played, though neither of us were mains of either character.

wait wait wait

Pellets no longer stop Gordos?!

Smooth Criminal

 

[Thinkaman]

wait wait wait

Pellets no longer stop Gordos?!

Smooth Criminal

Okay, I'm freaking out.

I just tested on my 3DS in training mode, and they reflect them.

But I SWEAR, on a 1.0.7 PAL WiiU 3 days ago, I played a half dozen MM vs. DDD games and pellets positively never ever reflected Gordos. We explicitly discussed the interaction multiple times, including the repeated phrase "ARG, I keep trying to reflect Gordos with pellets!"

Does anyone have any insight?

 

[Smog Frog]

stale lemons dont reflect gordos

 

[Locke 06]

Stale pellets never stopped Gordos. Half of the MU for Mega is keeping track of when you can reflect gordos with pellets imo. MB and FAir are your more reliable tools.

The other half:

Uair/Utilt juggles
Spotdodge to utilt is your answer to him landing with BAir (if he gets out of the uair juggle)
Shield drop utilt punishes his dtilt on shield
grab > uthrow

That's setup by MB and CB pressure. Also, if you're in mid-range, pellets will hit him before he can launch the gordo. Now you can MB and launch the gordo at him. -shrugs-

Pellets don't kill Dedede.

Edit: W/customs, take ice slasher

 

[Thinkaman]

stale lemons dont reflect gordos

Oh, right--yeah, this is it.

Is getting pellets perma-fresh for gordos remotely plausible? Doesn't that... defeat the general utility of pellets, if you can't hit with them?

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

The Official /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results​

(S) (13.7 | ±0) (13.2 | +1)
(A+) (12.55 | +4) (12.45 | +2) (12.38 | -2)

I'd argue over ..But I've seen some of Pikachu's attacks. Pikachu while he has really strong combos. He has a hard time approaching. The frames inbetween the use of Thunder Jolt sitting at 58 frames in the air. can really out camp with his own Fireballs both by short hopping and just standing.

Skull Bash, against Luigi at least. Can be stopped with either a Fireball, which can lead into him being grabbed or stringed. A Fair, which could just be used to keep at at distance, crippling his ability to combo in general. can't combo if he can't get in. And while he has 12th fastest run speed in the game. Fireballs really shut him down expecially on how fast can dish them out.

deserves to be where he is. Still fast. Still decent combos. He's has options in terms of kill his opponent, safe ones at that. I sorta wanna say could in the future give him a run for his rank...buuuut I don't have much experience with ZSS to say that confidently so I'll leave that be.

(A) (11.96 | -2) (11.89 | -2) (11.73 | ±0) (11.13 | ±0) (11.12 | +1) (11.1 | -1 ) (11.08 | +1)

This tier seems to also be pretty legit. It seems the characters who can easily escape combos/strings are placed higher in this tier. Which is understandable completely.

has his Up B (I mean if you can even get 3 consecutive hits on the guy to begin with that is),has his normal jump or Down B..or Dair to stop any forms of following up. also can just jump. can either jump (I think?) Or use her Down B to get out of combos. And there is no way you can prevent them from doing such.
I personally put higher than . Mainly because have to fish so hard for kills like does.

Has his Uair, Bair, Up Smash (which should be used sparingly due to its lag), Fsmash and even Dsmash (which I also do sparingly due to it's ending lag). He's able to build up damage faster than and I get he is insanely Safe to use.

though ate his damn Wheaties on the transaction from Brawl to Smash 4. We all can agree in terms of Damage, and Knock Back. Yoshi's moves in general are pretty strong. Even uncharged Smashes that hit around 90% have the potential to net a quick kill.
How his recovery is I'd rather not just say it's bad or even not very good because I really need to pick up and get used to how he recovers.

But since he relies more on pressuring your opponent while at the same time having to make sure he doesn't slip up and get to many hits in. Unlike who can just relentlessly pressure you without much worry. He's gotta work to get you to kill %. Which I'd have to say isn't to bad. It's just landing the finishing move that seems to be his only weakness.

But all in all A tier seems pretty set from who's in it. Maybe minor adjusting...

Being a main. It frustrates me and I've tried. The only characters who can actually stay in these characters faces no matter where they go are probably , and them selfs.

Not saying should be placed higher. I'm just saying with how high his jumps are he can follow characters pretty easily if they jump out of a combo starter. Same with .

Question: How is the MU for vs ? I'm just curious on why is higher than him...please explain.

(A-) (10.88 | +1) (10.79 | -2)

Eh..no comment. Curious to why his so high....but is so low. And other more Melee based characters. Then is so high, possibly because of his Recovery. What else does he have that doesn't?

(B+) (9.95 | ±0) (9.82 | ±0) (9.78 | ±0) (9.68 | +2) (9.64 | ±0) (9.32 | +3) (9.31 | -3) (9.18 | -1) (9.12 | -1)

First off. The 3 character gap between and makes no sense..Come on now. I'm not arguing which of these characters are better between the two. It's the obnoxious gap between them both.

Don't they have the same weight? The only thing that differs between the two is their Side B which one is faster but hits lighter and one is slower but hits harder ?

Any way. I think , and are fine where they are. No complaints here.

Honestly not much to say about this tier in general...seems..alright.

(B) (8.85 | ±0) (8.81 | +3) (8.75 | +10) (8.62 | -1) (8.47 | -3) (8.12 | ±0) (8.01 | ±0)

(B-) (7.89 | +2) (7.73 | +11) (7.56 | +2) (7.54 | +3) (7.53 | -8) (7.4 | -4) (7.32 | -3) (7.11 | +1)

.......is 6 god for saken characters above . Seriously. Not even gonna.

I'd switch and 's spots on this list. Yes, Mac has a glaring weakness which is his recovery. But can even keep up with the onslaught of attacks Mac can dish out? 's recovery isn't what it used to be nor is his run speed. He's gotta be on his opponent like white on rice to get any real damage down.

Neutral B allows him to get back onto the ground and get people off him who will try to get him into the air. His basic Jab sorta stomps any approach from the ground that he could try and do.

UpSmash is nice for Air approaches. So dunno how really jumps higher than in this aspect.

(C+) (6.87 | -8) (6.8 | +2) (6.72 | +6) (6.62 | -3) (6.59 | ±0) (6.31 | +2) (6.24 | +5) (6.23 | -5) (6.2 | +5) (6.04 | -3)

There is absolutely no way out of all these characters. Yes. His recovery is terrible. But he's really not that bad. Seriously what the hell?

I think he stops right at . Since Should be right below in the first place. It would make next in line for who's stopping from being higher.

's Super Armor and Tilts do pretty much stop from getting in. has also gotten much faster than his previous games and can pretty safely travel off stage for a Bair and end 's stock pretty quickly.

(C) (5.93 | ±0) (5.86 | +1) (5.74 | -3)
(C-) (4.86 | ±0)


A few things I personally noticed: there's quite a few characters that actually stayed in their place or maybe moved 1-2 spots this month, I think peoples impressions are starting to settle out a bit. Though it seems a few characters are still really seeing radical changes (Kirby and Little Mac WOW) and the mid to lower tiers are having the most fluctuation.

Here are the Miscellaneous Questions!​

[collapse=]
Which character do you think has the most hidden potential?
1. - 3rd.
2.- 1st. Shulk to much to use to be truly judged this early on in the current Meta. I'll leave it at that. We just need the right person to seriously sit down and....really...Feel it.
3. - 4th

4. - 2nd.

Which character do you think is the most overrated?

1. CULT OF FALCON
2. - Diddy is pretty tame now. Anyone who whines he's still OP or Unfair is just Johnning.
3. - ZSS isn't so much overrated...I never figured she was..why is she even here?

Now someone who is probably truly overrated is . At least on /r/Smashbros.



Which character do you think is easiest to use?

1. - 2nd
2. - 1st , and most rewarding.
3. - 3rd

Which character do you think is hardest to use?

1. - 1st
2. - 4th. She's not really hard to use but you can't just grab her and play like other characters.
3. - 2nd

4. - 3rd

Which character do you hate to fight the most?

1. - 1st. I hate them both equally.
2. - 2nd? I personally love to fight Rosalina & Luma. It pushes me to my limit and helps me test my reaction time and ability to think on my toes the most out of all characters.
3. - 3rd. I don't actually dislike fighting Luigi.

4. - 1st. I hate them both equally.

Which character do you love to fight the most?

1. - Without a doubt Falon.
2. - Meh
3. - Meehhhh

Which character do you play as as most?

1. - Shockingly Falcon..He's fun to play as and I like him. I just don't like how overrated he is.
2.
3.

[/collapse]

So here you go everyone, what do you all think?​

[/quote]

Pit's arrows are better than Dark Pit's for juggling and off-stage harassment (though juggling is how you'll get the most out of them), Pit's f-tilt kills, and his side B kills at a more favorable angle. In customs the two are probably right next to each other since Dark Pit gets arrows he has more control over, but Dark Pit will be under Pit because the scissor sweetspot on his f-tilt is weaker.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Oh, right--yeah, this is it.

Is getting pellets perma-fresh for gordos remotely plausible? Doesn't that... defeat the general utility of pellets, if you can't hit with them?

Followup question. Does hitting a Gordo with a lemon count against the stale moves queue?

 

[Locke 06]

Oh, right--yeah, this is it.

Is getting pellets perma-fresh for gordos remotely plausible? Doesn't that... defeat the general utility of pellets, if you can't hit with them?

At gordo reflection kill %, keeping pellets somewhat fresh makes gordos more of a worry for D3 than Mega. (as long as they don't appear twice on your 9 move cue list. MB takes up a stale move spot but never stales itself!)

Followup question. Does hitting a Gordo with a lemon count against the stale moves queue?

Nope. Neither does hitting luma. However, hitting the balloon in smashville/town and city unstales your moves.

I finally played this MU on a competitive level about a month ago. You can play keep away really well, and then when you're pushed to the edge, you're forced to go in. Once you're past his wall of spaced SH BAirs/ftilt, he's got dtilt, grab, and shield as everything else is too slow.

Dedede's reward off a grab is good, but if Dedede is put in the air, he's gonna have a hard time coming down. Also, if Dedede's on the ledge, he's got problems. He can try the whole Brawl ledge stalling thing, but DAir spike awaits his regrab, and utilt awaits his recovery onto the stage.

 

[BSP]

I'm also surprised that Mega Man and Pac-Man aren't in his high tier.

Discuss or something

Zero wants to see results. Outside of Apex, I don't think these 2 have them.

They've got the potential for sure though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Neither does hitting luma.

Wat.

Note to self: Test this later.

 

[Locke 06]

Wat.

Note to self: Test this later.

I'm like... 95% sure. I also remember testing with Parcheesy that luma's moves don't stale. Luma's moves do stale, and I probably tested this but forgot.

Hitting items doesn't unstale your moves, and I'm pretty sure they're treated as item hurtboxes. (See Olimar's Pikmin too, I thiiiink).

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

Pit's arrows are better than Dark Pit's for juggling and off-stage harassment (though juggling is how you'll get the most out of them), Pit's f-tilt kills, and his side B kills at a more favorable angle. In customs the two are probably right next to each other since Dark Pit gets arrows he has more control over, but Dark Pit will be under Pit because the scissor sweet spot on his f-tilt is weaker.[/quote]

Wow completely had a brain fart about Pit's Arrows. Those things are phenomenally good for offstage antics. And with Pit's recovery and decent knock back aerials. I can see why setting up with an Arrow then running off the stage can put Pit where he is on the tier list.

 

[bc1910]

Dark Pit and Pit shouldn't be grouped together, it's fair enough for ZeRo to say if you can play one you can play the other but they still have subtle differences that separate them. I think Pit should be one spot ahead of Dark Pit because he's the better choice in most cases (yes @ Shaya I'm aware of how good upwards arrows are and Pit's are better because they can be guided in flight significantly more than Dark Pit's and Dark Pit's damage buff is actually pretty minuscule) but they're still basically the same character so nobody should really separate them on a tier list.

With that in mind I'm expecting Greninja and Peach to round out ZeRo's top 20 because I know he thinks highly of both characters, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Mega Man or ROB take Greninja's spot.

 

[FullMoon]

The only thing that really surprised me in ZeRo's high tier list was Pit/Dark Pit and how high Olimar and Villager are.

Considering ZeRo's comments on Greninja, I'm guessing the frog will be on his next video of his tier list since he does consider him to be pretty underrated.

 

[Lavani]

I'm like... 95% sure. I also remember testing with Parcheesy that luma's moves don't stale.

Wait, what.

I'm 100% sure this isn't the case because I remember testing Luma staling forever ago and learning that Luma's moves staled separately from Rosalina's, and that Luma's move staleness was refreshed after it dies and respawns.

But just to be 101% sure, I'm looking at a Luma usmash doing 3% ingame right now.

 

[Smog Frog]

> not top 15

no comprendo gg

but real talk, played at his highest level(incorporating his metric ****ton of kill setups, his ridiculous footstool combos, fluid(quite literally)movement with various techniques)is a high(potentially top tier) character. nerfs are REALLY overhyped.

i, for one, am ready for 20croakcroak

 

[warionumbah2]

Its based heavily on results, that probably explains why Frog isn't in the video.

Nope. Neither does hitting luma. However, hitting the balloon in smashville/town and city unstales your moves.

Do the Ducks in Duch hunt stage unstale moves?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Wait, what.

I'm 100% sure this isn't the case because I remember testing Luma staling forever ago and learning that Luma's moves staled separately from Rosalina's, and that Luma's move staleness was refreshed after it dies and respawns.

But just to be 101% sure, I'm looking at a Luma usmash doing 3% ingame right now.

I think it's kind of funny how Luma does so much knockback but next to no damage.

 

[Locke 06]

Wait, what.

I'm 100% sure this isn't the case because I remember testing Luma staling forever ago and learning that Luma's moves staled separately from Rosalina's, and that Luma's move staleness was refreshed after it dies and respawns.

But just to be 101% sure, I'm looking at a Luma usmash doing 3% ingame right now.

Yup, I'll trust that over my memory from half a year ago.

As for moves not staling for hitting luma... well, I'm less confident than I was, but still pretty confident.

Do the Ducks in Duch hunt stage unstale moves?

In the same way that smashville balloons do, yes.

Spoiler

No, they don't. Neither do the balloons.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

> not top 15

no comprendo gg

but real talk, played at his highest level(incorporating his metric ****ton of kill setups, his ridiculous footstool combos, fluid(quite literally)movement with various techniques)is a high(potentially top tier) character. nerfs are REALLY overhyped.

The nerfs Greninja got were pretty damning and it suffers a lot because of it amongst the top of the cast. I agree it's probably at least in the top fifteen, but I can see why the omission.

 

[Zelder]

What are Zero's top 15? I'm at work and can't open up a youtube video (but I can still browse Smashboards, apparently).

 

[SpottedCerberus]

I'm surprised he thinks so highly of Olimar. I'm not too knowledgeable about his match-ups, but I can't think of any that are overwhelmingly in his favor. Yet, his match-up against Sheik is as bad as it gets. And I know that Kirby is also near unbeatable for him, from the moment he gets inhaled.

 

[Firefoxx]

Falcon's jab is another common "anti-gordo" move that can't reflect them when staled. I'm pretty sure just one gentleman is enough to stop it from working. (even just two jabs might be enough)

Also, it looks like there are a few good Oli's in SoCal and Vegas so he probably plays against the character quite often and Olimar has a pretty good match-up against Diddy. (I don't know if its a winning matchup, but probably one that isn't fun for Diddy)

Edit: Though he also plays Larry all the time and still doesn't think all that highly of Fox so who even knows.

 

[bc1910]

20th is probably about as high as Greninja could reasonably be in his current build. His footstool combos are not only inconsistent but don't work on every character and generally only work from advancing Nair at low percents which is hard to land against good players, and easy to shieldgrab. Greninja's MUs are not bad, he loses to fewer characters than Luigi and other so-called top tiers, but he also lacks the dominant MUs typical of top tier characters.

The nerfs seriously hampered his viability. Good players and "better nerf Greninja" memers alike don't realise how badly he was nerfed. I myself am only just learning the extent to which this character was butchered. His range, power and already-suspect frame data were all hit hard.

What we are left with is a character with probably the best natural movement in the game let down by a frankly crappy moveset. Almost everything that was good about his moveset was taken away. His moveset was only ever good in spite of his frame data, and now that his moves don't have the range or power to compensate for their lag they just aren't good.

Greninja will continue to get better as Sheik gets worse but I don't see good players flocking to him any time soon because he requires a massive amount of work for the same or less reward than most high tiers.

I don't expect sympathy from any of you, mainers of certain characters from Brawl probably feel a lot worse than me. I just wanted to vent. And frankly I really hope Greninja gets some of his old power back in future patches. Even just his old shurikens would give him a coherent, powerful gameplan.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I think people need to realize Zero's tier list is based off pretty much purely results, which confuses the hell out of me when he has characters like villager fox or ZSS so low or having yoshi on there at all when there's other characters with results like ROB for example.

Also he still barely does any research before doing any of his vids, still referencing as if Sky is a top Yoshi for getting 49th (not top "30" lol) place at apex like it's a big deal and thinking Yoshidora and Aiba are doing anything in japan.
Even with the wins dora had under his belt, they're wifi only and were like 4 or so months ago when he was beating decent people, hasn't done anything online since.

Which reminds me to check shi-gaming channel again.

 

[Smog Frog]

moveset isnt as crappy as you're making it out to be. yeah, the frame data may be a bit suspect, but his range is still good, and the power on the moves with the most suspect frame data(fair, smashes) are good and his aerials either have little landing lag or great AC windows. the only moves has that i think are legitimately bad are ftilt, standing grab, side b, and down b. maybe dtilt. moveset may not be amazing, but its decent(i mean if it was straight terrible i dont think he'd have all his kill setups)

 

[FullMoon]

I find it really cool how Greninja players insist Greninja is underrated and proceed to treat the character like he's crap soon afterwards.

Smh

Geez, I wonder why there's people out there who think Greninja is bad when his own players are still complaining endlessly about nerfs that happened more than 5 months ago as if it was some sort of tragedy even though the character is still perfectly fine and operational with a great toolkit.

the only moves has that i think are legitimately bad are ftilt, standing grab, side b, and down b. maybe dtilt.

I can't even

 

[Nabbitnator]

I haven't played greninja in a while but his dtilt leads into grabs at low percents from what i remember. So its not bad, side b has uses too.

 

[bc1910]

Because he doesn't have any results. And it doesn't matter how good we think he still is when no-one is actually doing anything with him any more. Results don't mean everything, but they still speak volumes. We don't even have a Dark.Pch, aMSa is pretty much dropping Greninja for Pikachu and a lot of the best players dropped him already.

It's easy to think Greninja is underrated but when you come to understand just how much was taken away from him, you'll see there's a reason good players gravitate away from him. I'm usually very positive about Greninja but learning the extent of the nerfs has really put things in perspective.

@ FullMoon That means no Greninja at EVO, which is what I was getting at, but if aMSa is still using him in customless that's something.

 

[Shaya]

Paralyzer sucks vs . It's highly committal and gives me a free follow up if I just PS it. It's her ability to combo easily that makes the matchup in her favor. It's 40-60 's favor or 45-55. I really don't feel it's that bad. My set with Marss in winners was terrible because I played like a fool. In losers it went to game 3 last stock last hit and he won.

If shields at high percents then what can even do? Grab me and lead to nothing? The matchup requires to play a stronger ground game presence whereas most matchups can wildly spindash and jump reset with ease.

Well, I didn't really go in depth about this match up in that message.
I only said paralyzer beats spin dash; your commitments in those can be reliably punished; I ain't pretending to be Brawl Falco Joe. At longer charges it approaches neutrality on shield, although Sonic is indeed capable of punishing it at most ranges.
I don't think it's a hard counter or anything either (for the good reason you mentioned: 16 frame grab, please understand).

But yes, if anyone shields at high percent, the question is what can ZSS do? Don't ever overly force a kill, be precise with the pokes you make on shield as they -are- safe done properly. That's about it. Nair so reliably leads into follow ups, back air is so strong. I think my new found knowledge of shield lock mechanics will only make me get better at making shielding a painful thing; if my whole focus is anticipating shield drops in tournament sets when I have whimsical jabs and ftilts to scare people with (in those situations), I'm getting you eventually as I dance around you.
But if I grab you, I'm getting a follow up. Up Air (which can roof kill well enough) or Fair are pretty reliable at nearly all percent. Otherwise I can look for flip jump kicks or back air with a bit of "reading" of sonic's choices (which if you condition people a little with back throw [isn't that hard considering poor DI gets you flip jumped as a true combo that kills at 50%] the dthrow DI is pretty reactable for a follow up always).

 

[FullMoon]

Because he doesn't have any results. And it doesn't matter how good we think he still is when no-one is actually doing anything with him any more. Results don't mean everything, but they still speak volumes. We don't even have a Dark.Pch, aMSa is pretty much dropping Greninja for Pikachu and a lot of the best players dropped him already.

aMSa has said it himself that he's going to use Greninja in default and Pikachu in customs, he's not dropping him.

I would say more about this matter but I must leave to college.