Character Competitive Impressions

[LimitCrown]

Mii Fighters are customizable characters, used to make any character you want in the game. Their introduction to Smash Brothers was the ability to make any character you want.

They get "Special Treatment" because that is exactly how the character is supossed to function.

This is not a custom-only aspect of the game. Miis are supposed to be any persona you want them to be. You're supposed to make Abraham Lincoln or Ice Tea. You aren't supposed to limit them to a falsified smokescreen perpetuated to people who mis-understand this.

Mii Fighters are NOT, themselves, characters. THEY. ARE. NOT. They are a medium to CREATE YOUR OWN CHARACTER.

If this is so far beyond the understanding of anyone in this community, we need to take a few steps back because the meta is far beyond our understanding of developing beyond 'press buttons'. Because clearly it is too challenging an aspect of a game to figure out, when you can't grasp the idea of a "CREATE YOUR CHARACTER" feature.


And that is THE BOTTOM LINE. The difference between Miis and Customs is CREATING A CHARACTER vs CHANGING AN EXISTING ONE.

Every character in Super Smash Bros. for 3DS/Wii U is a customizable character. There are only three types of Mii Fighters and each type is recognized by the game as a separate fighter. There custom moves are unique compared to each other, which is the same as Palutena.

When you are using a Mii to create a Mii Fighter, you are not literally creating a brand new fighter. You are just using one of the three templates. The greatest differences between each one are the face that they can have, which is entirely aesthetic, and their custom moves. I also stated that the game at one instance does treat a certain moveset for each Mii Fighter as the default, which happens to be 1111. You are missing the point of what I am saying.

 

[GeneralLedge]

If there's no swaying your opinion, there's no point in saying anything further on the matter. Customizing characters is not the same thing as creating a new one. Miis are indeed new, because they show up on a list, and you can order that list by "newest".

 

[David Viran]

If there's no swaying your opinion, there's no point in saying anything further on the matter. Customizing characters is not the same thing as creating a new one. Miis are indeed new, because they show up on a list, and you can order that list by "newest".

They seem more like alternate costumes that you make than new characters to me.

 

[King Omega]

Its very easy to tell that most Falcons don't know how to play the character because most Falcon dittos don't get damn close to timing out.

Why the hell would you ever approach in this match-up? Approaching, or committing to anything really, is going to get you blown up.

What am I reading? You might as well say that Falcon dittos in Smash 64 should time out. I don't know about you but I usually play Smash with human beings, not the tic-tac-toe computer from War Games, so most of the game is spent trying to approach and not just standing there having an intense staring contest because omg approach will get you killed.

 

[GeneralLedge]

They seem more like alternate costumes to me than new characters.

You make one fat, you make one thin. Both play differently.

 

[Zelder]

And much like real life, the thin character is the popular, well liked one.

 

[mimgrim]

@ mimgrim The argument that "Miis don't have any default custom moves" seems to be mainly a semantic dispute. This is only because the reasoning is that because they can use theirs in Vs. mode at any point, they must not have anything considered to be custom moves whatsoever, which isn't actually the case because Event Mode prevents them from using those moves. The moveset that the Mii Fighters are only able to use while customization is disabled is, unsurprisingly, the one that all Mii Fighters start with, "1111". I wasn't accusing you in particular of being hypocritical. I was pointing out that, apparently, the arguments of those who want the Miis to be able to use all of their attacks is justified because the game allows them to in VS. Mode, but my argument that the Miis have a default moveset is not valid because I used a supposedly unrelated mode as a clear example of designating one to them. Never mind the fact that all of the other characters are treated the same way. Apparently, I'm the one who is hypocritical because I don't try to find loopholes in the definitions of "custom moves" and "defaults"?

You are completely missing the point I'm trying to make and are rehashing the same old argument over and over.

I'm going to say this in big bold letters.

EVENT MODE DOESN'T MATTER AS IT IS NOT USED IN COMPETITIVE PLAY AND AS A RESULT HAS NO BEARING ON WHAT IS DONE IN VS MODE WHICH IS THE COMPETITIVE STANDARD MODE FOR SMASH.

It doesn't matter if Event mode has a default Mii or not. It is completely 100% irrelevant to the mode where competitive Smash takes place and what happens there is not related to to VS mode in anyway.

This shouldn't even be ****ing debatable for crying out loud.

 

[Big-Cat]

If we're talking about Mii teams, it's always been that the Multi Mook teams have never used special moves.

 

[GeneralLedge]

New plan, we disable special moves for every character.

...Okay, thought experiment, what if nobody had b-button moves at all.

 

[Big-Cat]

Shulk would suck.

 

[Macedonian]

falco would now have one of best recoveries in the game! and still be low tier :'(

 

[Thinkaman]

New plan, we disable special moves for every character.

...Okay, thought experiment, what if nobody had b-button moves at all.

I'm buying a one way ticket on this train, out of the current conversation.


First pointing out that this really warps recoveries.

With that said, I think the biggest winners would be Jigglypuff, Kirby, Peach, Yoshi, Pit, Rosalina, Diddy, Little Mac, and Sheik, in that order.

 

[Ffamran]

falco would now have one of best recoveries in the game! and still be low tier :'(

It would be linear as hell compared to Kirby, Jigglypuff, Peach, Meta Knight, the Pits, and even Ness, Lucas?, and Mewtwo because of their loopy jumps. Oh, and Yoshi keeps his super armored Flutter Jump, so Yoshi would have the best recovery.

 

[san.]

Event Mode isn't that much different from Master Orders, a mode in which the odds can be heavily stacked against you. This is basically the case for all of the single-player modes in higher difficulties. The Mii Fighters can only be selected for events that are based on Super Smash Bros. itself, which allow you to select any of the characters that you may have. It happens that in this case, the Mii Fighters are affected by customization being disabled and they can use only their default moveset. It also shows that they have a default moveset in the first place. I don't think that it should be disregarded just because it is not VS Mode.

The issue is that if you allow the Mii Fighters to use their custom moves at any time, regardless of whether custom moves are prohibited, then you're basically giving the Mii Fighters special treatment.

I'm not disregarding it. In a few events, miis are limited to 1111 with the customs off setting, and can choose any special with customs on. (Why anyone would ever do any of these challenges with customs off is anyone's guess.) The game doesn't explicitly tell you that any sort of mii is default, and there's all sorts of reasoning we can come with regarding that or design intentions of the developers for situations outside of the norm. Logically speaking, this limitation should very well have been implemented for all other modes, but it wasn't. Now answer me this, why would this setting occur for event mode, but not for any other mode when it was surely within the developer's powers to do so?

 

[LimitCrown]

If there's no swaying your opinion, there's no point in saying anything further on the matter. Customizing characters is not the same thing as creating a new one. Miis are indeed new, because they show up on a list, and you can order that list by "newest".

Your stance is subjective. You may consider each Mii Fighter to be its own character. However, they are, in actuality, one of the three available templates. The game considers those templates to be three separate characters.

You are completely missing the point I'm trying to make and are rehashing the same old argument over and over.

I'm going to say this in big bold letters.

EVENT MODE DOESN'T MATTER AS IT IS NOT USED IN COMPETITIVE PLAY AND AS A RESULT HAS NO BEARING ON WHAT IS DONE IN VS MODE WHICH IS THE COMPETITIVE STANDARD MODE FOR SMASH.

It doesn't matter if Event mode has a default Mii or not. It is completely 100% irrelevant to the mode where competitive Smash takes place and what happens there is not related to to VS mode in anyway.

This shouldn't even be ****ing debatable for crying out loud.

When the arguments are about whether the Mii Fighters have custom moves in the first place, then it certainly matters and it has bearing. The argument that they don't have anything considered to be the default is completely debunked by the fact that the game forces them to use their 1111 moveset when customization is disabled in that instance.

Also, I would like to point out that the Mii Fighters that you can use and the Fighting Mii Team opponents are separate characters. They have their own stats.

 

[King Omega]

The argument that they don't have anything considered to be the default is completely debunked by the fact that the game forces them to use their 1111 moveset when customization is disabled.

In only one of many modes, right? And not even the actual multiplayer Smash mode.

 

[BSP]

New plan, we disable special moves for every character.

...Okay, thought experiment, what if nobody had b-button moves at all.

Pac-Man would be the worst character.

...well, maybe not the worst, but bottom 5 at best. Most of bad grab characters would be royally screwed over without their specials.

 

[LimitCrown]

In only one of many modes, right? And not even the actual multiplayer Smash mode.

Whether it happens in only one mode, that doesn't matter. It matters that it happens in the first place. People can't claim that the Mii Fighters don't have a default moveset or that the game doesn't consider those characters to have one at all when there is clearly an instance of the game doing that. That moveset happens to be the 1111 moveset and it is the one that all Mii Fighters start with, which is the same for every single character in the game. Allowing the Mii Fighters to be able to use all of their custom special moves in tournaments that prohibit custom moves is certainly giving the characters special treatment.

 

[|RK|]

I'm buying a one way ticket on this train, out of the current conversation.


First pointing out that this really warps recoveries.

With that said, I think the biggest winners would be Jigglypuff, Kirby, Peach, Yoshi, Pit, Rosalina, Diddy, Little Mac, and Sheik, in that order.

How would Sheik win? No needles, kill moves destroyed... it would be awful

 

[Lavani]

If only Sakurai chose a more logical ordering for the Mii Fighters's specials. If instead of "123" their specials were labeled "Pizza Donkey Grapefruit" and their order was randomized every time you went to their specials screen our lives would be so much easier.

 

[LimitCrown]

If only Sakurai chose a more logical ordering for the Mii Fighters's specials. If instead of "123" their specials were labeled "Pizza Donkey Grapefruit" and their order was randomized every time you went to their specials screen our lives would be so much easier.

This is why I hate these types of arguments; they don't address the actual point that I am making. Instead, these are only trying to be facetious and attack a straw man.

 

[Macedonian]

Is their any real detriment to making miis legal?

I do think for tournaments all should be standard size miis to make it simple for people to practice against and adapt to them.

 

[GeneralLedge]

more logical ordering

"Pizza Donkey Grapefruit"

It is a sad day when this is logical.

Is their any real detriment to making miis legal?

Many weird people (who are hopefully in the minority, but they sure do yell loud) don't want to learn to deal with variations on the same character. It's the same tired argument as with customs, but they want to limit the tired argument to customs. "Customs-off" is their sanctuary where they don't have to expect an upset. Miis threaten that, and need to be banned[citation needed].

 

[Macedonian]

The argument is different for miis though, anybody can make any mii at any time, so it's not as hard to practice against it or adapt to it

 

[GeneralLedge]

The argument is different for miis though, anybody can make any mii at any time, so it's not as hard to practice against it or adapt to it

But then you're, "giving Miis special treatment," because "I should be allowed to play Pikachu with his best set if Miis can play with their best set."

Never mind that most S tiers are still S with default moves, and never mind that Miis without non-1111 moves are D/E/F tier (Mii Sword may be a C). It's only fair.

 

[LimitCrown]

So far, the "rebuttals" to the arguments that I made can be summed up as "It doesn't count" or "The Mii Fighters are create-a-characters, not three separate characters. That means that each is their own."

Also, I'm going to say this. If you need to resort to mocking my arguments, then you aren't any better than what you may think my arguments or I am.

Spoiler

(I won't be able to type any responses for the next few hours.)

 

[LightLV]

I think samus might be the worst character in the game if we're talking from a competitive/tournament environment.

She is full of questionable design decisions i just don't get. And the best part is how Sakurai made that funny joke where they determined she was the best character back during that E3 tournament. Half of me wishes they'd just take current ZSS, reskin her into her Varia suit, and change her B moves around. Then they can just make ZSS a Roy/Dr. Mario with different specials and I wont have to cry so much about how bad Samus is.

Then there's Zelda, i dont know why it's so hard to make her good. She's free of being a shiek activator with another whole B move to boot and she's terrible for it.

 

[MVD]

So apparently MVD beat ESAM in two back-to-back sets yet again last night. Did anyone catch it? I'm assuming he went and if so, I'm willing to bet that either 1) ESAM is playing the MU horribly wrong or 2) the MU is not at all in 's favor.

I think Pika beats Diddy, I just have the pika experience and player skill to be able to beat him

 

[Unknownkid]

I think Pika beats Diddy, I just have the pika experience and player skill to be able to beat him

Was that a Custom Tournament?

 

[Ikes]

Every character in Super Smash Bros. for 3DS/Wii U is a customizable character. There are only three types of Mii Fighters and each type is recognized by the game as a separate fighter. There custom moves are unique compared to each other, which is the same as Palutena.

When you are using a Mii to create a Mii Fighter, you are not literally creating a brand new fighter. You are just using one of the three templates. The greatest differences between each one are the face that they can have, which is entirely aesthetic, and their custom moves. I also stated that the game at one instance does treat a certain moveset for each Mii Fighter as the default, which happens to be 1111. You are missing the point of what I am saying.

every character is referred to as their whole name, but Miis are just "Mii" in the menu and victory screen.

why is this?

Because every mii is an individualized custom character

IT IS IN THEIR NATURE TO BE CUSTOM

to argue otherwise is silly, like saying there should be a default moveset and size on Mortal Kombat: Armageddon (maybe not the most apt comparison but you get the idea)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Outlandish suggestion:

Miis are banned outright in a customs-off environment.
Miis are allowed with no restrictions on height, weight, or customs in a customs-on environment, subject to logistical limits such as presets and the like for large scale cases such as EVO.

Rather blatantly unfair to Mii mains in customs-off tournaments but it short circuits the whole debate at the very least.

(I'm really just sick and tired of seeing the debate crop up all the freaking time.)

 

[LiteralGrill]

Outlandish suggestion:

Miis are banned outright in a customs-off environment.
Miis are allowed with no restrictions on height, weight, or customs in a customs-on environment, subject to logistical limits such as presets and the like for large scale cases such as EVO.

Rather blatantly unfair to Mii mains in customs-off tournaments but it short circuits the whole debate at the very least.

(I'm really just sick and tired of seeing the debate crop up all the freaking time.)

I think most Mii mains while they'd be upset, would rather have Miis available in SOME form than non at all in customs off.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think most Mii mains while they'd be upset, would rather have Miis available in SOME form than non at all in customs off.

I'm not a Mii main, but it seems to me like there's no possible solution that will satisfy everyone.

If Miis are banned outright, then Mii players obviously can't use their character at all.
If Miis are allowed but can't freely use their custom moves, then they're just a halfassed form of themselves that is objectively less viable than their preferred sets. I don't even use the Miis and I can see that 1111 is an inferior option for all 3 Miis.
If Miis are allowed with a single, most popular custom set, then that's progress but turns their viability into a popularity contest.
If miis are allowed with no restrictions on customs then everyone else gets to complain about how they get to flex some options other characters don't have access to.

All the above assuming customs are turned off. Obviously if customs are on the point is moot.

 

[Ikes]

so where's a smash 4 height chart?

ive looked up some but they're all canonical height charts and dont pertain to the game whatsoever and it's annoying me

 

[GeneralLedge]

I'm personally fine with Miis being wholly customs-only (since the alternative is... Not even remotely fun). I'm just annoyed that the argument is strictly dependent on menu aesthetic. This isn't even about the game itself, people are upset that the menu says something they don't like.

And I have to stop and wonder, are there any TO's around here that actually have to set up the game? What are THEIR opinions on this banter? Would all your players give up and go home and never come back if you changed what set Miis are limited to?

 

[Firefoxx]

What am I reading? You might as well say that Falcon dittos in Smash 64 should time out. I don't know about you but I usually play Smash with human beings, not the tic-tac-toe computer from War Games, so most of the game is spent trying to approach and not just standing there having an intense staring contest because omg approach will get you killed.

I live in a world where I've played Falcon dittos against humans that resulted in near time outs. Had you read the conclusion of that conversation you would have noticed me finding out that, if timed well, you can actually just dash grab through held jab, which I had never experienced before. I no longer believe that the ditto should time out because I no longer believe that Falcon can deal with his own dash grab.

But I stand by my point that approaching Captain Falcon will often get you killed because that's basically the whole ****ing point of the character.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Competitive character impressions huh? That's not the impression I'm getting to be honest. Does this debate belong here? >.>

 

[Firefoxx]

Competitive character impressions huh? That's not the impression I'm getting to be honest. Does this debate belong here? >.>

Probably not, but it does pertain to 3 characters actually being in the competitive meta. And this thread has largely become more of a metagame discussion than purely character focused.

But in an attempt to steer the Mii stuff in a better direction, does anyone know how much Brawler really struggles getting KO's after Helicopter Kick setups stop working?

 

[bc1910]

Competitive character impressions huh? That's not the impression I'm getting to be honest. Does this debate belong here? >.>

Jesus Christ, THANK YOU.

So, Zelda. What do we think of her general level of balance? I must say that considering she's quite good in all game modes besides 1v1 (Din's is a nightmare in FFA and we know she works well in teams) she's in a bit of a tricky situation balance-wise. 1v1 isn't the only mode this game is built for. I wonder how she could be made better in 1v1 without making her too strong elsewhere? Seems weird to be talking about the risks of making Zelda too strong, one of the series' all-time weakest characters, but it might be something they consider when they look at Zelda's balance.

 

[MVD]

Was that a Custom Tournament?

Last night was vanilla