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Character Competitive Impressions

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Djent

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Sumabato3 results:

1) Ranai :4villager: (undefeated with his entire bracket finishing top 8)
2) Edge :4diddy: (lost to Ranai twice)
3) Saiya :4falcon: (lost to Edge twice)
4) Aki :4luigi: (lost to Ranai and Saiya)
5) Gomamugitya :4lucario: (lost to Edge and Aki)
5) Thouther :4falcon: (lost to Ranai and Saiya)
7) Komorikiri :4sonic: (lost to Ranai and Aki)
7) Shuton :4olimar: (lost to Ranai and Saiya)

Just shy of 150 entrants and fairly stacked. Notables such as Earth :4pit:, Shogun :4fox:, and 9B :substitute: were knocked out fairly early. Also, it's obvious by now that Japan recognizes how ridiculous :4falcon: is and has him figured out to a much higher degree than the rest of the world does. Also notable is Shuton's win over Ikep :rosalina: as corroborating evidence that :4olimar: wins the MU.
 

Ffamran

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Yeah I hate that. He needs to have hitboxes at the end. It already won't travel as far as Fox's and the weak spike isn't making up for both the distance and hitbox issue.
Either it works like this: Fox Illusion puts a hitbox in front of him or on him while Falco Phantasm puts a hitbox behind him or only for about 2/3's of the move. If you pivot with Fox Illusion, Fox won't be able to hit behind him, but Falco can with Falco Phantasm. This also translates to a "lingering" hitbox when Falco drops ledge and Falco Phantasm back. It's a way to make their Side Specials "unique", but in practice, it hurts Falco since if he mis-spaces Falco Phantasm, he's outright screwed even when IAPing it while Fox isn't as screwed so long as hits anywhere from the beginning to the end.

Not to be snarky or anything, but why are we still "discovering" stuff about Falco? IAPing with Fox and Falco in Smash 4 were known for a while already and so is the glitch where Falco can ledge spike Captain Falcon with D-throw if Falco's right next to the ledge. It's a little irritating to be honest.

It seems that Falco is designed as a more "balanced" luigi. He has better mobility (falling speed by far, walking, and not sure about run though) so he has better approach options (power shield through everything, or smart side b), but worse reward. Like a zangief vs T Hawk thing (even if they're not grapplers).
Or a messed up hybrid of Fox and Wolf and Melee Fox's U-throw to Uair combo.
 
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Luco

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Oh, yeah. I think after recent events we can safely say Villager belongs nowhere else but firmly in high tier if not top tier. I'm actually beginning to see this character as top tier now. :grin:
 

Smooth Criminal

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I never considered him mid, tbh. Maybe top of mid, or in that vicinity. Wasn't quite sure if he could hang with the big boys either, but maybe this is the start of something...?

Ohhhh man, time to steal some tech watch this!

Smooth Criminal
 
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Sinister Slush

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I've seen the potential from villager since day 1.
It's nuts how it takes a serious aggressive villager like Ranai to do well with him, meanwhile over in the ol US of A we need customs to lame it out and still not even get top 3.
 
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Nu~

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Sumabato3 results:

1) Ranai :4villager: (undefeated with his entire bracket finishing top 8)
2) Edge :4diddy: (lost to Ranai twice)
3) Saiya :4falcon: (lost to Edge twice)
4) Aki :4luigi: (lost to Ranai and Saiya)
5) Gomamugitya :4lucario: (lost to Edge and Aki)
5) Thouther :4falcon: (lost to Ranai and Saiya)
7) Komorikiri :4sonic: (lost to Ranai and Aki)
7) Shuton :4olimar: (lost to Ranai and Saiya)

Just shy of 150 entrants and fairly stacked. Notables such as Earth :4pit:, Shogun :4fox:, and 9B :substitute: were knocked out fairly early. Also, it's obvious by now that Japan recognizes how ridiculous :4falcon: is and has him figured out to a much higher degree than the rest of the world does. Also notable is Shuton's win over Ikep :rosalina: as corroborating evidence that :4olimar: wins the MU.
Did abadango enter that one?
 

Luco

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... Falco won a tournament. :)

Grand finals set 1 and set 2. Challonge link: http://challonge.com/SSVISmash4. :)
I know this is on a more personal note, but I'm really happy this happened for you and the other Falco mains - I know you care a lot about your character and it's not easy to main a character that takes a lot more work than others, so hearing that Falco won a tournament is really exciting, and I hope it keeps enthusing you to push him as far as you can go. :)

Also, in regards to :4villager: , I've believed he was firmly high tier for a long time, but I feel as though recent events have convinced me he really can sit in top 15 or possibly even top 10 at some point. Remember that V won BAM with Villager and not just Ness too btw, so that's another recent point for the little townie. :grin:
 
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Zelder

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I don't think it was ever really in contention that Villager was top 15. He just has too much going on to get left behind.
 

Gamegenie222

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I know this is on a more personal note, but I'm really happy this happened for you and the other Falco mains - I know you care a lot about your character and it's not easy to main a character that takes a lot more work than others, so hearing that Falco won a tournament is really exciting, and I hope it keeps enthusing you to push him as far as you can go. :)

Also, in regards to :4villager: , I've believed he was firmly high tier for a long time, but I feel as though recent events have convinced me he really can sit in top 15 or possibly even top 10 at some point. Remember that V won BAM with Villager and not just Ness too btw, so that's another recent point for the little townie. :grin:
You have no idea. Repenting for a characters sins take work. Closest i get was 2nd and that was against a Villager player who picked up Shiek to beat me for a period of time. I tell him all the time Falco sucks and you have to put In 3 times the work to beat people with him than other characters. Eshura is also a Lucina player from Colorado who is now main wandering.
 
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Luco

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I don't think it was ever really in contention that Villager was top 15. He just has too much going on to get left behind.
Right, I suppose it's more of a "I think this character could be potential top 10" rather than the revelation of him being high tier, which I think most of us have already had. :grin:

And yeah I totally get you Gamegenie. I used Lucas and Ness in Brawl and every decent spot I got was a bucket-load of hard work. This must be really satisfying. :D
 
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Sinister Slush

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Ffamran

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I know this is on a more personal note, but I'm really happy this happened for you and the other Falco mains - I know you care a lot about your character and it's not easy to main a character that takes a lot more work than others, so hearing that Falco won a tournament is really exciting, and I hope it keeps enthusing you to push him as far as you can go. :)
I think FOW took one in the 3DS days and Happy Dad from New Brunswick, Canada almost won Grand Finals, but he got Side Smashed by Little Mac at 57% on Delfino's er... the water stream area with the houses and near the tower thing and died. Eshura's not a Falco main from what the power rankings said; he's a Pit and Lucina main, but somehow, he ended pulling a Falco out and he took out Colorado's #1, Fishbait, a Captain Falcon and Fox player, who apparently dabbles in Marth as well, but since Eshura's a Lucina main, it was a last resort since Eshura might have figured out his Captain Falcon and Fox leading to Fishbait to scramble. Fishbait's play seemed to drop after those 7 matches and ending with a 3-0 after resetting the bracket with a character people don't know and don't hold highly probably got to him. I mean, look at the control he had with Fox against Eshura's Pit and compare it to the last 3 rounds against Eshura. #5 Eshura just took out #1 Fishbait, an upset according to the commentators.

Edit: Oh, and the hype the sets generated was awesome.

Almost every character has at least won somewhere. Just people never post about it for some reason.
But man, lol c'mon coloradC... you let a falco beat Captain falcoN
I know, but this is the first time I've seen a Falco take a tournament with other stuff being really close or barely anything. Every character has results, but nobody really knows unless it's big like Apex or well-known like Xanadu or something "upsetting" like Trela taking tournaments with Mewtwo and Mii Swordfighter. Even then, it's ephemeral or people move the goalposts like, "MSF has to take EVO before we can say he's low mid".
 
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Sinister Slush

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I know, but this is the first time I've seen a Falco take a tournament with other stuff being really close or barely anything. Every character has results, but nobody really knows unless it's big like Apex or well-known like Xanadu or something "upsetting" like Trela taking tournaments with Mewtwo and Mii Swordfighter. Even then, it's ephemeral or people move the goalposts like, "MSF has to take EVO before we can say he's low mid".
To be honest on those last two things about Trela. That only got some spotlight because most of the TX scene finally accepted that we have to cater to leddit fb etc. in order for recognition.

Trela even went on some random rants in the houston thread how much he hated himself (not rly lol) for going to the dark side that is having to post stuff on reddit in order to be noticed months back when he made his first thread I think of a combo he did on Espy with Robin. People are just lazy and never do research themselves, everyone just wants things to be given to them for free on a silver platter without having to do any hard work which is a measly 10 or so minutes of digging around tournament results section to find that stuff.

It's sad really. Still irks me Zero uses Sky getting 49th place at apex as a huge Yoshi accomplishment. Granted there's not many, but at least look at the characters boards and click 3 or so threads before saying stuff mang...
 

GeneralLedge

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"MSF has to take EVO before we can say he's low mid".
I want to see someone beat ZeRo with Mii Sword, directly. Just to watch the world burn.

Or, like, his ensuing tweets about it where his programming malfunctions.

Mii Sword should be isn't even viable to get banned because he isn't F tier but has no tools this tournament bad customs the
 

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Not gonna lie, I was really unimpressed by those Colorado sets. Looking at the mistakes made, I don't think either player would claim that as an example of their best play. I walked away from the video without any additional respect for Falco.

Much of Falco's KO potential as witnessed in these games came from uair chases that would only work on fast fallers.

I have tons of respect for Falco's jab, bair, f-smash, and Void Reflector but don't see a coherent character emerging from these moves. (I have no idea what Falco would do in the close neutral without Void Reflector. Disengage? Walk forward and jab? Gamble on a f-smash???)
 

Thinkaman

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Quick thought: For all of Falco's flaws, I would take his bair on every character in the game. Without exception.

I would also take Reflector Void as down-b on every character in the game except ZSS, Luigi, and maybe Charizard + Shulk. (An argument could be made for DHD too. These characters merely have options well-suited to their overall kits.)

His jab and f-smash are also top-5-in-slot; this is just obvious numerically.

But a few amazing moves does not an amazing character make, sadly for Falco.
 

bc1910

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Quick thought: For all of Falco's flaws, I would take his bair on every character in the game. Without exception.

I would also take Reflector Void as down-b on every character in the game except ZSS, Luigi, and maybe Charizard + Shulk. (An argument could be made for DHD too. These characters merely have options well-suited to their overall kits.)

His jab and f-smash are also top-5-in-slot; this is just obvious numerically.

But a few amazing moves does not an amazing character make, sadly for Falco.
You'd take RV over Bouncing Fish?
 

Nu~

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No, but he entered the most recent Umebura, finishing 13th. He lost to Rain (whom he took to game 3 using :4wario:) and 4th-place finisher Salena.
Explains why he was practicing the meta knight matchup with pacman on stream (same with villager after he lost to Ranai)

I don't understand why he keeps taking wario to the sheik matchup. He loses that matchup with wario against rain constantly. He only tried pacman once and never practiced it again
 

Antonykun

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Quick thought: For all of Falco's flaws, I would take his bair on every character in the game. Without exception.

I would also take Reflector Void as down-b on every character in the game except ZSS, Luigi, and maybe Charizard + Shulk. (An argument could be made for DHD too. These characters merely have options well-suited to their overall kits.)

His jab and f-smash are also top-5-in-slot; this is just obvious numerically.

But a few amazing moves does not an amazing character make, sadly for Falco.
I would rather have counter timber over void reflector.
 

Ffamran

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To be honest on those last two things about Trela. That only got some spotlight because most of the TX scene finally accepted that we have to cater to leddit fb etc. in order for recognition.
Really, that kind of sucks. It does help boost MSF and Mewtwo's awareness, but at the same time... Whatever, Trela showed the world and that's enough, but sometimes, the world is kind of... stupid.

Trela even went on some random rants in the houston thread how much he hated himself (not rly lol) for going to the dark side that is having to post stuff on reddit in order to be noticed months back when he made his first thread I think of a combo he did on Espy with Robin. People are just lazy and never do research themselves, everyone just wants things to be given to them for free on a silver platter without having to do any hard work which is a measly 10 or so minutes of digging around tournament results section to find that stuff.
Considering how many cookie cutters are out there on For Glory and tournaments, this doesn't surprise. People see Luigi doing D-throw to Fair and try to replicate it over and over even when it's not possible anymore because of the damage not to mention Diddy players failing to connect Uair from D-throw and U-throw and flail around stupidly or Fox's jab cancel which cool, all right, shofu saw Megafox connect Utilt from jab 2 and wanted to incorporate it into his game plan, but he needs practice and understanding to connect it consistently and make full use of it.

The other part is misconceptions which more or less leads to stuff like Yoshi is top 5, Luigi hard counters Diddy, and Ganondorf sucks because Brawl. Commentators say things on the fly, but it still irks me sometimes since people know how viewers will react. Megafox vs. Dao was basically like top player vs. competitive player or say, Mango vs. a decent Sheik player in Melee. Nothing against Dao, but it was clear that Megafox was controlling the pace and overwhelming him which made Fox look supreme and Falco a punching bag. When Saturn said he felt the MU between them is Fox 70:30 Falco, I felt like that's a severe statement. It's almost like saying Ryu counters Ken despite the fact they're the original shotos of Street Fighter and that they're similar fighters who happen to specialize in different fields. Going with Melee and Brawl and probably PM, Fox and Falco, Mario and Luigi, Dr. Mario and Mario, Link and Toon Link, Ness and Lucas, and Captain Falcon and Ganondorf probably go even with each other and slightly disadvantaged, 60:40, at worst. They're almost like mirror matches, but more like speed versus power or specialist A versus specialist B rather than character X versus character Y. I mean, if Ryu countered Ken that hard despite being similar character, then there might be no reason for Ken to even exist if Ryu does everything Ken does, but much, much better. Now, if Ryu countered say, Sagat or Guy, then whatever, different characters.

It's sad really. Still irks me Zero uses Sky getting 49th place at apex as a huge Yoshi accomplishment. Granted there's not many, but at least look at the characters boards and click 3 or so threads before saying stuff mang...
Well, ZeRo could be citing big results which does cater to the masses. I mean, if ZeRo mentioned Xeon from Puerto Rico getting 2nd, people probably would not care since Puerto Rico is basically nonexistent to the rest of the world aka the US... If ZeRo cited Eshura for that tournament, I bet there would be people saying Colorado's full of frauds and scrubs who can't beat Falco, a bottom tier. Still, both things would be relevant, but hearing something from a more "major" tournament compared to a local or regional has more impact even if it's so freaking outdated... the Sky of today is definitely not the Sky of Apex.

Not gonna lie, I was really unimpressed by those Colorado sets. Looking at the mistakes made, I don't think either player would claim that as an example of their best play. I walked away from the video without any additional respect for Falco.
A win is a win :p

Still, I pointed out how Fishbait basically fell apart during the 7 matches and Eshura was probably too since both their games ended with tons of mistakes and fishing. At that point, it was Eshura knowing Fishbait was falling apart and he tried to keep himself from falling below Fishbait. Both tried to punish every mistake and capitalize on every opening, but Eshura ended up doing that the best compared to Fishbait. As I said, look at Fishbait's Fox against Eshura's Pit - the second round. Fishbait clearly has a fantastic Fox, but somehow, he decided to switch back to Captain Falcon which is meh after seeing Fatality's and then Marth at the last round against a player who mains Lucina? Both were grasping at straws since Fishbait probably knows Eshura has a Lucina which lead to picking Falco who nobody really knows. Eshura's Pit, honestly, wasn't anything special, but then again, to me, Nairo has the best (Dark) Pit that I've seen and his Falco was pretty average if not barely passable compared to GimR, Cyro, and Gamegenie's Falco from months ago. Nothing against the players, but at this point, I'm expecting much more, especially since you can just look up a 10 minute video, take some notes, and practice for like 15 minutes every other day on something like Falco's D-throw to RAR Bair. Oh, but that's copying. Yes, but learning about it and making it your own isn't, but whatever.

Much of Falco's KO potential as witnessed in these games came from uair chases that would only work on fast fallers.
Uair in general is a chase past like 50%. It's never guaranteed and more difficult to land with compared to Fox, ZSS, Captain Falcon, Diddy, Mario, or Luigi who have something like fast ground speed to run under and jump, fast air speed to follow, or a setup that works pretty well whenever not to mention the sour-spot body hitbox making it a hit confirm, but only if you know and can react to it. The only thing Falco read where they're DI'ing and jump up immediately and hope they're there to Uair them. The trade for a slower Uair is that his Uair is strong and his jump makes it deadly since he can catch you at the blast line.

I have tons of respect for Falco's jab, bair, f-smash, and Void Reflector but don't see a coherent character emerging from these moves. (I have no idea what Falco would do in the close neutral without Void Reflector. Disengage? Walk forward and jab? Gamble on a f-smash???)
Jab, Ftilt, Dtilt, and if you can, Reflector. Blaster's not going to work like in past games or even like Mario, Luigi, Fox, and Rosalina's projectiles. Maybe RAR Bair, Nair, and Uair if you're against a tall character. That's pretty much it. Falco can't even disengage properly since he's slow and no, his walk speed isn't going to get him anywhere when it's barely slower than his run speed.

Quick thought: For all of Falco's flaws, I would take his bair on every character in the game. Without exception.
I would not; I would take Melee/Brawl Falco's Bair with Smash 4's Falco's Bair power. The lack of a front hitbox and lack of a sex kick kills on a character with fast fall speed and poor air speed making him even easier to juggle. Oh, and I'd like that frame 5 Dair back even if it means it won't spike until 999%. I'd like something to freaking challenge below me quickly and safely.

Wolf's Bair works because of Wolf's air speed and low jump - same deal with how Dr. Mario's Bair works so well, but mostly with his low jump. You can't slap that on Falco and hope it works as well. Wolf abused the hell out his air speed which let him Bair wall the frick out of everyone; Falco can't do that. I'd rather have Sheik's Bair on Falco or Samus's Nair as a Bair for Falco just because it can cover in front of him and potentially save him from being juggled to death.

His jab and f-smash are also top-5-in-slot; this is just obvious numerically.
Jab would be better if it has better IASA frames and if his rapid jab wasn't so easily interruptible. It's kind of stupid when Jigglypuff can Nair and Rest in the middle of rapid jab or how anyone with a quick aerial like (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Little Mac can Nair it or even grab through it. Might as well give him a Gentleman to be safe...

Side Smash would be better if it didn't have that extra frame of startup added. Why? Come on, seriously. Also, it's about the same or even weaker than Diddy's which comes out at frame 12 or something. Oh, but Diddy had severe end lag, but guess what? Diddy can setup Side Smash while Falco can't... Oh, and screw Diddy's stretchy limbs.

But a few amazing moves does not an amazing character make, sadly for Falco.
Doesn't help that they butchered his Dash Attack for no good reason, copy-pasted his Dair to fit everyone else - slow spikes like the rest of the cast -, and made his grab that slow for a melee fighter when chaingrabs don't exist meaning Falco can't possibly abuse his grab like in Brawl.
 
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Djent

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I don't understand why he keeps taking wario to the sheik matchup. He loses that matchup with wario against rain constantly. He only tried pacman once and never practiced it again
I actually think :4wario: goes even with :4sheik:, it's just that no one is going to beat Rain with a secondary. :4pacman: probably does worse objectively but I can totally see his main working out for him if he is persistent.

I mean, he's the guy who beat Otori's :metaknight: in a supposedly "-2" MU when both were in their prime. It's just that now (as was sometimes the case then), his loyalty is split between many characters even though he obviously excels the most with his main.
 

warriorman222

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So Falco sucks because he's not Melee/Brawl Falco?
Brawl Falco was a sucky character that had chaingrabs and buffed Lasers. Simply taking those 2 away would be enough to ruin him. Then they bomb him with nerf after nerf: Nerf Dash Attack. make his dair Luigi range with worsethanGanon speed. Make his standing grab WORSETHANGANON speed. Reduce Fsmash speed by 1 frame cuz lol. They could have just nerfed lasers to Melee, not butchered them. But oh, we're not done! Let's compeltely screw over bair, ruin Usmash's lag, Double fair startup and give it less dmg(Okay the move wasn't even good beofre, why?). amke nair worse. Then compensate this with 0.04 more run speed -_-

Oh wait?!?! We buffed him? Must nerf Greninja Landmaster!

Point out any of that, that was neccesary or even helpful towards fixing Falco, other than lasers and dair.
 
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bc1910

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Fair actually links now, which compensates for (and I expect is the reason for) the damage nerf. I don't know if it was the autolink angle in Brawl but that game had massive SDI meaning you could always get out of autolink stuff anyway so whatever. The startup buff is unfortunate and maybe unnecessary but it may also have to do with the attack actually linking now.
 
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