Character Competitive Impressions

[Zelder]

People overrate Mario in general but this definitely takes the cake.

Mario isn't very good. He's pretty good but nothing more than that.

Mario has the mobility and speed to get in, and top tier frame data. Additionally, he's one of the characters that benefits greatly from customs assuming a customs environment (especially the cape variants). What in your keeps him from being top tier?

also lol at "isn't very good" followed by "he's pretty good".

 

[Ffamran]

And this is the point where Shaya... Just read this okay?

Okay.
We've had many over the months since release, but they've mostly all calmed down. Now there's only a few people left who still proactively do the same passive aggressive sarcastic crap (a joke is fine, humour is great if it isn't derailing) every time their character is mentioned, in some cases rarely saying anything constructive otherwise, EVER. Stop.
You either have a post or reference ready to explain/help someone who has a "wrong" opinion, or you don't reply at all.

Thanks.

If it isn't obvious to some, "poor" posts in this thread only become problems when people reply to them. Every time that these posts trigger a page+ of sub-conversation replies pushing out earnest and solid posts from good contributors I think to myself "so should I be applying infractions to the same people who do so every time, or let it slide as I'm not bothered to deal with their self-righteousness afterwards?" However, if the warning's out there the latter is significantly less of a concern.

I know we're all prone to expressing our passion for the game, no matter what form it takes on the internet.
But when it happens time and time again and nothing ever positive comes out of it (there's no further conversation to be had), it isn't cool.
No one learns, perspectives aren't understood (other than "don't ever mention this character if you know what's good for you") and the overall quality of the thread trends downwards.

Please understand.

~there is absolutely no reason to reply to this post at all (in this thread)~

 

[GeneralLedge]

F:

I don't mean to backpedal myself from a few hours ago, but of the three Miis, if forced to 1111, Sword is absolutely not the weakest (Assuming these aren't in random order). His best tools are A-button inclusive, where as the other two have borderline required B-button focus.

Spoiler

Dejavu -- Brawler w/o HK or PP has... afaik only Onslaught, usmash and dair (spike or not) for kill moves (Fsmash and Dsmash if you like lag frames?). But you'll have a heck of a time fishing for these outside of surprise. Shotput has some use for off-stage zoning, I guess, but in my experience fighting Brawler the endlag on Shotput is severely punishable (just as bad as a whiffed fsmash or dsmash, I reckon). His horizontal recovery is also practically non-existent, and I really don't know how practical Axe Kick is, or even IF it is. At best, you have Sheik's damage output without bouncing fish. Or needles.

Swordie has uair, bair, fair, fsmash (range! tipper!), platform shark usmash, and the twirly dair gimp of doom. He gets a great zoning tool with Gale Strike, an OoS and ledge-spiking tool with Stone Scabbard, crazy good recovery with Airborne Assault, and a counter. There's also several crazy/silly strings via jab-dtilt-dthrow-uair-bair-bair, and variations therein.

Gunner, I honestly don't know. However, the best gunner tools are almost certainly Grenade and Mine, of which 1111 has neither. You can still surf around with fair if you want, but you'll be hard pressed to actually zone for damage. I guess you can fair poke and stall for time?

 

[PUK]

Fortunately, in few days a patch+Lucas come, so it will distract us.
I hope Sakurai will understand that Zelda/Kirby/Puff/DDD etc are not secrets top tier and will enjoy few buff.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

And this is the point where Shaya... Just read this okay?

Get the ram-rod outta your keister. Technically tierlists aren't even supposed to be posted here (unless your name is Capps). So if you're gonna be anal, start there.

Not to mention, I shouldn't have to regurgitate to each and every single body that pops in with a random ass ordering of characters (e.g. "tier listing") as to why I/we feel that way unless they directly ask about their prowess in the grand scheme of things, instead of about their "placement" in that person's little bubble of the metagame.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Nu~]

Looks like Zero's tier list with a dash of eyebrow raisers. (Greninja, Kirby, and Dx3 come to mind)
In other words: Mmmmmeh.

 

[Gunla]

Rosalina, Ness and Fox are even as well. Any other good or even matchups wren't discussed


Do you mean it's too high or too low?

I ask that you please refrain from double posting, and instead use the edit function.

Carry on.

 

[Gawain]

Fortunately, in few days a patch+Lucas come, so it will distract us.
I hope Sakurai will understand that Zelda/Kirby/Puff/DDD etc are not secrets top tier and will enjoy few buff.

He needs to buff Ike. Make his up air kill a lot earlier and reduce the cooldown on his tilts just a little bit and he'd be a ton better.

Also please don't touch Falcon. He's perfect as is.

 

[Zelder]

Have they confirmed there will be a patch with the Lucas update?

 

[Ffamran]

Get the ram-rod outta your keister. Technically tierlists aren't even supposed to be posted here (unless your name is Capps). So if you're gonna be anal, start there.

Not to mention, I shouldn't have to regurgitate to each and every single body that pops in with a random *** ordering of characters as to why I/we feel that way unless they directly ask why, instead of about their "placement."

Smooth Criminal

Well, someone asked for him to see his tier list. My point was more of okay, if you think it's funny, whatever, but mocking him is going nowhere. We're like broken records sometimes, but sometimes, that's gotta happen. Someone'll say, "Mega Man is bad", so we give counterpoints, try to explain and change their views, and discuss why instead of mocking, arguing, and leaving shallow statements. If you don't care to explain or it's a bad day, then whatever, just leave it.

Have they confirmed there will be a patch with the Lucas update?

There's bound to be an update that adds how Lucas functions, but not a confirmed update for stuff like balance. So, nobody freak the hell out with placebos, all right? Dear Nayru, save us all on 6/14...

 

[Zelder]

Greninja is going to get...*flips a coin*...his down-tilt nerfed. Calling it now.

 

[Ffamran]

Greninja is going to get...*flips a coin*...his down-tilt nerfed. Calling it now.

That could hilariously make it link into Fair much easier if it was nerfed "properly".

 

[Teshie U]

Mii Swordfighter is just the hardest one to exploit in 1111 format. He has a big sword that helps him do well at a disadvantage, that Dair is annoying when trying to juggle or trap his landing. He has an actual good recovery and a projectile that eats other projectiles and shields, sets up kills with Uair.

Actually pretty nice frame data despite having nice range. The ways he can attempt to kill you are pretty safe, unlike Mii Brawler.

Most important imo is that he is the most likely to survive long enough to have a chance at winning. Mii Brawler and Mii Gunner have terrible default recoveries. Brawler is basically Little Mac with higher airspeed. Meanwhile Swordsman has an invincible Up B that can be extremely dangerous to get hit by.

Gunner has a nice on stage game but he is still almost worthless off stage.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm not having a bad day. You're just being hilariously inconsistent as usual.

But I'll drop it here.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Thinkaman]

I haven't actually made a list since the last patch day, so here:
Final 1.0.7 Tier Guess List

1v1, no customs, ordered within each level:








1v1, customs + Miis, ordered within each level--each level relative to the above:








The levels are intentionally unlabeled, but if you must:

Spoiler

"We had a decently competitive 64-man tourney and _________ won."

1. Not noteworthy, interesting, or surprising.
2. Noteworthy, but not interesting or surprising.
3. Noteworthy and interesting, but not surprising.
4. Surprising!
5. Oh wow, really?
6. OH WOW, really?!?
7. But no seriously, who won?

Fun bonus: Brawl and Melee tier lists mapped to same levels:

Spoiler

Alternative percentile-friendly ordering:

Spoiler

(Dark Pit and Lucina omitted)

Usual disclaimers apply: lots of opinions, one person's perspective, ect. ect. The breakpoints between levels, as well as the number of levels, is non-arbitrary yet not really significant.

Big rise for Luigi and MK. I'm still optimistic about Charizard, Jigglypuff, Mac, Duck Hunt, and Bowser Jr, while pessimistic about DDD, Falco, Samus, and Mewtwo.

Biggest winners with customs by approximate tier movement:
+3.5
+ 3
+1
+0.5

Change in rank by customs:

Spoiler

+32
+18
+6
+5
+4
+3
+2
+1
+/- 0
-1
-2
-3
-5
-6
-8
-10

Rank change is interesting but frankly more misleading than useful in any way; it doesn't tell you anything about the gaps between the characters, and puts a huge emphasis on movement within the dense mid-tiers. This is super obvious in that Fox only moves up 1 rank, while Marth, Lucina, Bowser , and Mega Man move not merely a little, but down. The 3 characters who drop the most are just the mid-tiers with the "least good" customs within that group, rather than people who outright don't use customs at all, like MK, Mewtwo, or most top-tiers.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja will have SS hitstun cancel removed and otherwise be untouched. That's pretty much what is going on with it now. Shadow Sneak stuff is removed but otherwise he stays the same.

Greninja is not being placed high in tier lists nor is he even showing up much be it For Glory or in tournaments so Sakurai and his team has no reason to do anything with him except maybe fix Up-Air.

Seriously that meme has fallen into irrelevancy now. It was funny before but now it's just getting obnoxious as you can't go anywhere without it popping up.

 

[Locke 06]

Someone'll say, "Mega Man is bad", so we give counterpoints, try to explain and change their views, and discuss why instead of mocking, arguing, and leaving shallow statements. If you don't care to explain or it's a bad day, then whatever, just leave it.

He is bad. (1/2 sarcasm, 1/2 not)
Why do people think Mega is so good? His placement at 27 makes a lot of sense to me with results-tinted glasses.

AFAIK (ew, gross acronym), Daiki has dropped Mega for Yoshi/Mewtwo (if someone wants to correct me, since I don't follow the JP scene at all that'd be great) and Zucco is focusing more on his life / stream than tournaments. Greward is thinking of dropping Mega because he doesn't think he has what it takes.

There are good Megas everywhere. You look at the power rankings in regions and there are a lot of good megas, but there's nobody dominating a scene beside the aformentioned Greward. Even NL, who is the most notable MM in terms of results, doesn't dominate his scene (which is stacked, mind you). Megas place highly in tournaments, but do they win? Seibrik won his first smash 4 tourney in Florida somewhat recently.

I love my character, and I think he has what it takes... but at this moment, what players or things do you watch or see that makes you say "wow, Mega Man is top 15?" when there are a ton of very good characters that have results?

Edit: Thinkaman'd by a tier list post.

 

[GeneralLedge]

-3

This kinda weirds me out, since Megaman and Palu share the only customs that aren't variations.

Custom Megaman will always have a place in my heart.

 

[Thinkaman]

This kinda weirds me out, since Megaman and Palu share the only customs that aren't variations.

Custom Megaman will always have a place in my heart.

I made sure to put the disclaimer: comparing rank changes without context is reeeally misleading and can lead to really inaccurate conclusions about mid-tiers.

Edit: This is actually true for comparing across meta-game shifts and patch changes as well.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Thinkaman's list is bretty good, even a separate CUSTOM one.
Though pika sonic too low, luigi diddy too high (just bump down 2 spots maybe), and Yoshi above Fox Mario and Falcon?
Opinions results or whatever, nothing for Yoshi screams higher than those 3.

 

[Zelder]

My heart goes out to Samus. Good for one game only.

 

[thehard]

It was funny before

 

[LimitCrown]

Mega Man's animations remain the same for each type of special move. All of his custom moves can be considered to be variations of each other.

 

[PUK]

I haven't actually made a list since the last patch day, so here:
Final 1.0.7 Tier Guess List

1v1, no customs, ordered within each (intentionally unlabeled) level:








1v1, customs + Miis, ordered within each level--each level relative to the above:









Big rise for Luigi and MK. I'm still optimistic about Charizard, Jigglypuff, Mac, Duck Hunt, and Bowser Jr, while pessimistic about DDD, Falco, Samus, and Mewtwo.

Multiples issue, but i don't want to start a war, so i will just points each relative placement xhich bother me the most
Custom off: Ike too low, he's as viable as puff or shulk in your tier list
Ganondorf and DK too high, and Lucina is not bottom, she's closer to marth
Custom on: Ganondorf too high, ike and shulk too low, and imo Lucario should drop too. Lucian and marth are too low, being able to kill from a well placed grab is too good to stay there. Zelda is not bottom alone, she should move up with samus.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Er, Thinkaman

There ain't 2 tiers of difference between Marth and Lucina. Particularly after the last patch where Lucina got the same buffs as Marth and then some. They should be pretty much right beside each other.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thinkaman's list is bretty good, even a separate CUSTOM one.
Though pika sonic too low, luigi diddy too high (just bump down 2 spots maybe), and Yoshi above Fox Mario and Falcon?
Opinions results or whatever, nothing for Yoshi screams higher than those 3.

Obvious personal bias. I've mentioned before, but STL is Yoshi central. I want to kidnap Flow-Yo and GenMuh and take them to EVO, to show the world the terror we've known for the last 8 months.

Custom off: Ike too low, he's as viable as puff or shulk in your tier list

It's been established that I have slightly higher opinions of Puff and Shulk, at least compared to the average opinion. I just don't have that trust in Ike.

Ganondorf and DK too high

Will and other top DK players have done pretty commendable jobs in events without customs.

Custom on: Ganondorf too high, ike and shulk too low, and imo Lucario should drop too. Lucian and marth are too low, being able to kill from a well placed grab is too good to stay there. Zelda is not bottom alone, she should move up with samus.

As for Ganon, maybe @Ansou and @1Miguel1 can offer commentary?

I think I'm giving Ike, Shulk, and Marth/Lucina decent credit as far as customs go. Don't mistake minimal movement for apathy; pretty much all those mid and low tiers are moving up significant amounts.

Samus gains way too much. Zelda actually gains a decent amount, but it's not enough to push her out of the gutter imo.

Lucina is not bottom, she's closer to marth

There ain't 2 tiers of difference between Marth and Lucina. Particularly after the last patch where Lucina got the same buffs as Marth and then some. They should be pretty much right beside each other.

It's really only ~1 tier difference, due to the ways the gaps fell.

We've heard lots of commentary in this topic about the very real limitations of Lucina relative to Marth, in terms of crucial safety.

It also reflects the thought process of making the lists, in which I considered the mentality of selecting characters and how surprised or not we'd be at hearing them winning. Lucina is penalized by this mentality--because why would you pick her?

I might move her around the gap in non-customs, to better express my feelings on her.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I feel the same with a good portion of TX. But we don't like bad rules like 2 stock customs on.

 

[bc1910]

I will eat my Wii U if Greninja gets any actual nerfs and not just bug fixes. What do you even nerf about that character now? Are they gonna ban him to Ubers so you can't even pick him unless he's fighting himself or Mewtwo?

He will more than likely be unchanged. The fact that he has dropped off the face of the planet both in tournaments and FG should be a sign to Soccer Guy and friends that they overnerfed him, but that was true before the Mewtwo patch and he was unchanged so I'm not expecting any changes this time. Of course, I'd love for them to recognize that they went too far with Greninja and address it, but I'm not holding out much any hope.

This is all assuming there are balance changes besides bug fixes in the Lucas patch, which we don't have any conformation on.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I will eat my Wii U if Greninja gets any actual nerfs and not just bug fixes. What do you even nerf about that character now? Are they gonna ban him to Ubers so you can't even pick him unless he's fighting himself or Mewtwo?

He will more than likely be unchanged. The fact that he has dropped off the face of the planet both in tournaments and FG should be a sign to Soccer Guy and friends that they overnerfed him, but that was true before the Mewtwo patch and he was unchanged so I'm not expecting any changes this time. Of course, I'd love for them to recognize that they went too far with Greninja and address it, but I'm not holding out much any hope.

This is all assuming there are balance changes besides bug fixes in the Lucas patch, which we don't have any conformation on.

I vaguely recall a confirmation from Nintendo back when they first announced Lucas that he'd come with a patch, but they may have just been talking about the one they'd have to push anyway to get his data in the game.

 

[TTTTTsd]

@ Thinkaman I think Mario gets more out of Customs than accredited. Maybe not Doc (but I still think he gains more to begin with but I think Mario is more relevant and feasible to argue)

Scalding FLUDD is absolutely the dumbest thing ever. Free 0 endlag disjoint that you can charge variably (it either combos into a free grab, or if you charge it, it has good KB and better range) and, from some testing (I believe on the Mario boards, you can ask @HeroMystic about it) it's actually positive on shield among all of this (and if you're close enough it's a free grab on shield too!) Its only close to feasible drawback is you can jump it and it doesn't negate projectiles, but it still fixes Mario's range problem (as small a problem as it was) and even gives him free confirms off of it to boot.

It's actually his dumbest custom by a wide margin. You combine Scalding FLUDD and Explosive Jump Punch which gives you an easy aerial kill confirm off of strings/combos that can be started with Scalding FLUDD and that's when things get really absurd.

My mind is subject to change but I doubt it will.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja dropping off the face of the earth is less because he got overnerfed (he really only got two nerfs and one of them is not even that big) and more because he's not easy to pick up and play so I'm sure most people wouldn't be interested in playing him unless they just like the character.

Greninja is a well balanced character now, no need to change him other than to make his moves work as they should.

And Soccer Guy, really? =V

 

[Blobface]

@ Thinkaman how much Ganon benefits from customs is a bit more opinionated. Ganon's custom benefits apply the most in his worst top-tier matchups (Sheik, Rosalina, etc.) and, while helpful, aren't huge game changers anywhere else. How important those few top tier matchups are defines how much he gains from customs.

 

[Thinkaman]

@ Thinkaman I think Mario gets more out of Customs than accredited. Maybe not Doc (but I still think he gains more to begin with but I think Mario is more relevant and feasible to argue)

Scalding FLUDD is absolutely the dumbest thing ever. Free 0 endlag disjoint that you can charge variably (it either combos into a free grab, or if you charge it, it has good KB and better range) and, from some testing (I believe on the Mario boards, you can ask @HeroMystic about it) it's actually positive on shield among all of this (and if you're close enough it's a free grab on shield too!) Its only close to feasible drawback is you can jump it and it doesn't negate projectiles, but it still fixes Mario's range problem (as small a problem as it was) and even gives him free confirms off of it to boot.

It's actually his dumbest custom by a wide margin. You combine Scalding FLUDD and Explosive Jump Punch which gives you an easy aerial kill confirm off of strings/combos that can be started with Scalding FLUDD and that's when things get really absurd.

My mind is subject to change but I doubt it will.

Scaling FLUDD combos into Explosive Jump Punch...? (At kill percents?) News to me, no idea how that could work; what am I missing here?

@ Thinkaman how much Ganon benefits from customs is a bit more opinionated. Ganon's custom benefits apply the most in his worst top-tier matchups (Sheik, Rosalina, etc.) and, while helpful, aren't huge game changers anywhere else. How important those few top tier matchups are defines how much he gains from customs.

It's no secret that I'm a pretty big drinker of the Ganon custom kool-aid. I respect Wizkick, but I run Dropkick in every matchup and swear by it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Scaling FLUDD combos into Explosive Jump Punch...? (At kill percents?) News to me, no idea how that could work; what am I missing here?



It's no secret that I'm a pretty big drinker of the Ganon custom kool-aid. I respect Wizkick, but I run Dropkick in every matchup and swear by it.

It's less "Scalding FLUDD combos into EJP at kill %s" and more "Mario should go to Town and City with Customs On". Because a free grab vs. a Mario who catches you like this off of Scalding FLUDD can be a kill at a number of %s, or at least a bevy of advantageous positions that lead into EJP. Stuff's wack.

Mostly because.

Spoiler

Battlefield also has low enough blastzones for an EZ carry. Even better if they're light!

(Although Scalding FLUDD actually MIGHT combo into it at kill %s depending on spacing and char. Worth a try!)

 

[Zelder]

@ Thinkaman I think Mario gets more out of Customs than accredited. Maybe not Doc (but I still think he gains more to begin with but I think Mario is more relevant and feasible to argue)

Scalding FLUDD is absolutely the dumbest thing ever. Free 0 endlag disjoint that you can charge variably (it either combos into a free grab, or if you charge it, it has good KB and better range) and, from some testing (I believe on the Mario boards, you can ask @HeroMystic about it) it's actually positive on shield among all of this (and if you're close enough it's a free grab on shield too!) Its only close to feasible drawback is you can jump it and it doesn't negate projectiles, but it still fixes Mario's range problem (as small a problem as it was) and even gives him free confirms off of it to boot.

It's actually his dumbest custom by a wide margin. You combine Scalding FLUDD and Explosive Jump Punch which gives you an easy aerial kill confirm off of strings/combos that can be started with Scalding FLUDD and that's when things get really absurd.

My mind is subject to change but I doubt it will.

I like Explosive Jump Punch, but your recover becomes booty butt tier with it on. It's just too risky (though it's a great custom to take if you're trying to disrespect your opponent).

I like Shocking Cape, it's got way more knockback than it really should have honestly. But Gust Cape is too much fun for me to personally pass it up.

 

[bc1910]

I vaguely recall a confirmation from Nintendo back when they first announced Lucas that he'd come with a patch, but they may have just been talking about the one they'd have to push anyway to get his data in the game.

Yeah, I mean there has to be some kind of patch, but I really don't know what's gonna be in it besides Lucas (and the Miiverse stage I think?). They're doing a direct before the patch, which is interesting, there might be more in it than we expect. Though I'm also expecting that direct will include news about future DLC.

Greninja dropping off the face of the earth is less because he got overnerfed (he really only got two nerfs and one of them is not even that big) and more because he's not easy to pick up and play so I'm sure most people wouldn't be interested in playing him unless they just like the character.

Greninja is a well balanced character now, no need to change him other than to make his moves work as they should.

And Soccer Guy, really? =V

Greninja got nerfs to probably a third of his moveset and they all add up, even though only one nerf (arguably two nerfs) seriously affected his viability by themselves. All Smashes, 2 aerials, 2 specials... yeah, 7 out of ~20 moves. Plus Shadow Sneak bug fixes which act as nerfs. Though in fairness Dsmash and Shadow Sneak were both nerfed and buffed.

There is no evidence that people don't use him because he's hard to play. The only data we have is Greninja's pre-patch results (good) vs his post-patch results (almost nonexistent) and that can be interpreted in multiple ways. Him being hard to use might be part of it but to me it's crystal clear that him being worse is why his usage fell. Melee Fox is hard to use, yet gets amazing results. Some people think Sm4sh Sheik is harder to use than the other top tiers at high/top level play, yet she gets great results. Ease of use isn't Greninja's problem, he was overnerfed.

Frankly I'm sick of arguing about this with you and we're never going to agree on how badly he was nerfed or what should happen to Greninja in future, so I'd like to politely suggest we don't discuss it further. Like, ever again, lol.

Massive Hero Soccer Guy, to be exact.

 

[Thinkaman]

I really respect Mario and Doc up-b 3, but I can't rationalize actually taking them in any matchup. It's not just about recovery--having a frame-3 invincible option (that can be done aerial and OoS) is a character-defining piece of utility.

I'm continually underwhelmed by Fast Fireballs as Mario. I feel like Doc's poor mobility gives him a lot more to gain from them.

Scaling FLUDD is nice, but I've never been super afraid of it when people have tried to use it against me?

Both capes are nice, but I tend to think the default is really underrated. As Mac, I am way more scared of the faster default than the Gust Cape I can more or less react to.


I think customs are kind to Mario, but it's not a revolution and from my perspective doesn't quite nullify the entire gap between him and Fox/Yoshi/Falcon.

 

[Ikes]

This kinda weirds me out, since Megaman and Palu share the only customs that aren't variations.

Custom Megaman will always have a place in my heart.

Since Mega Man still uses animations that are stock for his customs, it's hard to say that they're completely alternate. By that logic, you'd have to consider Bowser Jr.'s Air cannon, which fires a windbox instead of a cannon ball. I'm sure there are more customs like this but I havent quite gotten all of them.

Also, I'm personally of that opinion that Hyper bomb, Danger wrap, Plant Barrier/Skull Barrier, and Tornado Hold are the optimal MM customs, since danger wrap sets up into hyper bomb, tornado hold combos into fair or bair and can be used in strings with DW and HB, Plant Barrier doesnt lose leaves on hit so it's better for gimping, and Skull Barrier is a passive reflector which is immensely useful since you can attack while reflecting.

the DW/HB setups are absolutely real and more people ought to put work into them, see what can be done with it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I really respect Mario and Doc up-b 3, but I can't rationalize actually taking them in any matchup. It's not just about recovery--having a frame-3 invincible option (that can be done aerial and OoS) is a character-defining piece of utility.

I'm continually underwhelmed by Fast Fireballs as Mario. I feel like Doc's poor mobility gives him a lot more to gain from them.

Scaling FLUDD is nice, but I've never been super afraid of it when people have tried to use it against me?

Both capes are nice, but I tend to think the default is really underrated. As Mac, I am way more scared of the faster default than the Gust Cape I can more or less react to.


I think customs are kind to Mario, but it's not a revolution and from my perspective doesn't quite nullify the entire gap between him and Fox/Yoshi/Falcon.

Fast Fireballs suck for Mario quite bluntly. EJP IMO is better for him because his kit compliments it more than Doc. Mario's default is nice but yeah, it's a matter of opinion but it's just how I feel. Mario has the mobility and combo game to make Up+B 3 very workable and actually potent.

 

[Thinkaman]

Since Mega Man still uses animations that are stock for his customs, it's hard to say that they're completely alternate. By that logic, you'd have to consider Bowser Jr.'s Air cannon, which fires a windbox instead of a cannon ball. I'm sure there are more customs like this but I havent quite gotten all of them.

Regardless of how significant the modifications to game assets are, moves like Zig-Zag Shot, Jumbo Hoop, Grounding Dash, or even something like Shooting Star Kick feel like not just a different move, but a different character.

(While many others look almost identical; but if that was our only measure, Heavy Skull Bash would be the least significant custom.)

Fast Fireballs suck for Mario quite bluntly. EJP IMO is better for him because his kit compliments it more than Doc. Mario's default is nice but yeah, it's a matter of opinion but it's just how I feel. Mario has the mobility and combo game to make Up+B 3 very workable and actually potent.

Mario can combo into his EJP, and Doc's default up-b is already much better.

But sacrificing recovery on Doc matters less; like Mac, it's often a lost cause. More importantly, Doc is a bad character and thus is more inclined to consider an all-in giant-crazy gamble like Up-b 3.

For an extreme example, imagine there was a move that instantly gave you a 40% chance of winning the game, and a 60% chance of losing the game. This slightly unfavorable bet could be a pretty good proposition on bad characters, but transparently awful on good characters.