• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Character Competitive Impressions

Status
Not open for further replies.

Spinosaurus

Treasure Hunter
Moderator
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
3,655
NNID
WarioLand
I don't agree on Wario being tough, his range is actually worse overall and gets walled by fireballs. More of a 50:50 to me cause Wario is still faster and can gimp cyclone with bike.
He doesn't get walled by fireballs since bike eats through them. Wario doesn't have to approach in this matchup and he get free waft since Luigi can't do anything to approach him. Also Wario can edgeguard really deep here. He does a number on Wario once he does get in though.

I think it's slightly in Wario's favour.
 
Last edited:

Pazx

hoo hah
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
1,590
Location
Canberra, Australia
NNID
Pazx13
"Luigi has nowhere to go but down" is a statement I agree with. He'll always be good but he has some of the biggest exploitable weaknesses out of any "top tier" character. I really do see him losing to characters that are exceptional at walling or have stupid neutral games (:4miigun::4megaman::4sheik::4villager:... :4olimar:? :4drmario:? :4sonic:? :4tlink:? :4rob: would be a candidate if he didn't have awful disadvantage)

Now time for some personal opinion! These might be Luigi's best high tier matchups, honestly.

:4ness:5:5:4luigi:
:4diddy:5:5:4luigi:

These seem like 2 of the top/high tier characters who don't have the tools to exploit Luigi's weaknesses, but neither matchup is bad by virtue of these characters having generally good tools. Diddy's matchup is (imo) even due to the fact that Diddy is a bat**** stupid character, has decent pokes and still has a top tier grab and throw game to rival Luigi's on top of far superior mobility and an easier time getting grab. F3 upair helps. The Ness matchup seems even to me because Ness negates one of Luigi's stronger aspects (as opposed to completely abusing his mobility and inability to get in) with Magnet cancelling, something that has yet to be explored properly. Luigi has to try to get in without fireballs and I think Ness has the tools to deal with him approaching.
 

Man Li Gi

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
1,240
NNID
ManLiGi
Since when did having to discuss tier lists= actual character analysis? I can't go at least 1 page without having to sift through people's slight alteration and people arguing about where their character ranks. At this point, I say it's extremely trivial as we kmow that DLC/possible patches are going to be happening monthly ( from August I believe there will be one and then in October we see the character ballots come in).

I normally don't dislike tier lists, but given how patches come and go along with having to different people come and say I don't think Luigi is spot 7, but is spot 3; etc. At this point, I would say who and what dictates the meta's tier lists are what the top player is doing.

If ZeRo were to pick Luigi up and completely dump Sheik right now and have the same results as he does now, people would argue that Luigi is the best even with the flaws he has. He would become number 1 in tier lists and people would say "Yeah he has flaws but ZeRo tho" or something along those lines.

This is why I would wish instead of having the go to easy copout answer in the form of tier lists with bare bone analysis, I wish we go in deep, so that average or casual player can come here and leave with an understanding a character's flaws and strengths and possible ways to circumvent or otherwise not be bogged down by them so much so it becomes a delibating issue.

I know that character boards exist but they are so wrapped up in themselves and possibly have warped visions of what characters can do to them and what THEIR character can do with them ( I remember the early days of Ganon Wii U where the MU said we even with Mario, Yoshi and Luigi while the Pacs are a whole new monster breed). If we simply melded all of the analysis we had of each character ( of course your character of expertise) we wouldn't have to say, "Well my character has X so that counters Y, thus thoroughly denying your claims."
 

Kofu

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
4,609
Location
The caffeine-free state
NNID
Atoyont
3DS FC
1521-4492-7542
what if the shield doesnt regen until it breaks?
Powershielding would have to be easier, various moves would probably have extra shield damage removed, and the shield would probably have to have more health (or attacks only do a portion of normal damage to shields like in Brawl). The time you're stunned after it breaks would likely be lessened, too.

It would be a pretty ridiculous change IMO.
 

FullMoon

i'm just joking with you
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
6,095
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
NNID
INFullMoon
I know that character boards exist but they are so wrapped up in themselves and possibly have warped visions of what characters can do to them and what THEIR character can do with them ( I remember the early days of Ganon Wii U where the MU said we even with Mario, Yoshi and Luigi while the Pacs are a whole new monster breed). If we simply melded all of the analysis we had of each character ( of course your character of expertise) we wouldn't have to say, "Well my character has X so that counters Y, thus thoroughly denying your claims."
This is basically why in the Greninja MU thread I started asking more for input not on who wins the MU, since in that scenario bias flies all over the place, but instead for the mains of the discussed character to give their advice on what Greninja should be trying to do when facing their character, as in general that helps the meta grow with some actually useful info instead of just saying "x beats y because reasons".
 

Antonykun

Hero of Many Faces
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
6,727
3DS FC
1049-0472-0051
i kinda wanted to say that in customs off Luigi vs Villager may be a win for villager but it is in no stretch of the imagination an easy win.
Villager has to be spot on with her spacing as to not have to deal with Luigi's frame data once Luigi gets in Villager has nair but that move isn't all ways reliable against Luigi
^that was just some of the ways this mu can go wrong for villager
 

DunnoBro

The Free-est
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
2,864
Location
College Park, MD
NNID
DunnoBro
I'm just glad that once again, custom DHD doesn't have to worry about the "jank" of the month.

Aerial HSB set-ups don't work due to their pseudo-combo nature usurped by frame 1 hitboxes in snag. And custom jolt loses to all my projectiles. (all my projectiles can take a hit from jolt and still hit pika)

I feel like custom DHD only loses to characters that get a lot out of blindly dash grabbing. Since mega gunmen makes most standard approaches very punishable by giving them hitlag.
 
Last edited:

Shaya

   「chase you」 
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
27,654
Location
/人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!
NNID
ShayaJP
This conversation has brought up a few interesting relevant ideas.

Shields being as "resilient" actually make characters who have pretty annoying amounts of shield pressure / keep away play styles in check by allowing players at least the mid-term option of slow approaching and appropriate shield holding. Without shields they'd [feasibly] dominate, with shields most of those characters are forced to take risk to overcome it (grabbing). When we consider a Final Destination focused design, most characters abilities match up pretty okay with handling shields (platforms/etc promote camping/vertical based options that negate things in various match ups).

Megaman, Pacman, Olimar, Duck Hunt, Yoshi; etc so on and so forth.
I tried picking the most relevant this applies to, but it does apply to some extent with a lot more: e.g. ZSS, Sonic. If you have a stock lead on Sheik, she's going to have a hard time too.

Characters with free dash ins like Luigi, Diddy and sometimes Pikachu have a lot more leeway in their aggressive choices.
 
Last edited:

oldkingcroz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
103
dair true combos into utilt from my experience, which becomes a free aerial string. so the "no combo game" is partially untrue. if you can punish with dair, you get a free 30+%
Where did I say Kirby had "no combo game"...? You're putting words in my mouth, my friend. I merely said Luigi is better at combo-ing. Kirby can combo. But Luigi is better at it...
 

thehard

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
1,067
NNID
Barbecutie
I don't think people truly comprehend how strong "defensive" options aid the offensive game, i.e. running and shielding, SH air dodge, and so on.

We discussed this before, but many people seem to think the only way for Smash to be "offensive" is plenty of shieldstun, and fact of the matter is you'd be hard pressed to actually define "offensive" and "defensive" options in the context of this game (a lot of games) anyway
 
Last edited:

DunnoBro

The Free-est
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
2,864
Location
College Park, MD
NNID
DunnoBro
Yea, if you pick the wrong defensive option, you can get punished much harder than you would have if you just didn't have it to begin with. I wish there were more of these situations, but I don't think the inherent power of the options are the issue, just the lack of reason not to use them. (or understanding of how to punish them)
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
Well, ESAM imo definitely would've lost if it was default. Against Denti, almost every major gain and kill was via Jolt, or HSB. (Which I believe is the #1 most problematic custom)

Considering the several bugs/oversights surrounding it, I'm optimistic about it being patched though.

-Momentum reverse
-Smash Charge
-Pseudo-true combos into it (glad the ledge set-up doesn't work on DHD with Snag though)


Wish people would stop hyping up the infinite, HSB is 100 times worse and more potent/viable.
It was because he hit the infinite into HSB.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
I didn't see him ever getting stun chains into hsb, just single stuns into it. Timestamp?
Trying to think... I think it was the match right before he said he hadn't lost a stock all day? First set, IIRC.
 

DunnoBro

The Free-est
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
2,864
Location
College Park, MD
NNID
DunnoBro

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
How much slower is Thunder Wave in startup and total animation in comparison to Thunder Jolt? It seems close to as spammable.
 

Ikes

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
477
Location
Yoshi's Island
NNID
Smooth_Moonman
Will this do?
http://gfycat.com/AllImaginaryGrouse

He also did it on Phenom's Fox. That's the one I saw.
this makes me mad

i mean its not even fun to watch

this type of thing i feel is just super unhealthy for competitive, since it just makes it boring from a spectators standpoint and the game gets completely thrown.

I believe it travels around half the distance, does less damage, but is otherwise the same or very similar
it goes at identical speeds, but about half the distance and does marginally less damage.
 
Last edited:

DunnoBro

The Free-est
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
2,864
Location
College Park, MD
NNID
DunnoBro
How much slower is Thunder Wave in startup and total animation in comparison to Thunder Jolt? It seems close to as spammable.
IIRC only to the extent it isn't as good on shield, and a power shield can lead to grabs/running upsmashes depending on the character. Taller characters like falcon being able to powershield aerial version sooner can lead to stuff like raptor boost punishes, too.

Generally the potential punishes don't make it not worth spamming, though.
 

momochuu

Smash Legend
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
12,868
NNID
Momochuu
3DS FC
2380-3247-9039
Seriously that meme has fallen into irrelevancy now. It was funny before but now it's just getting obnoxious as you can't go anywhere without it popping up.
i honestly wonder if people that use the "nerf greninja" meme legitimately think its funny. it is one of the most forced jokes i've ever seen online. :/

if the lucas patch comes with any balance changes to greninja, i think the only thing that would be nice is shuriken's old speed restored. i do think old greninja could have probably ended up being a bit too ridiculous, but they went a bit too far. now he's a bit too much effort. he's a balanced, fair character in a game full of ridiculously powerful stuff.
 
Last edited:

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
im a real cool guy


Seriously, though, a 37% combo off a footstool is pretty hype, especially since he has every reason to jump around like a coward as it is. With five frames of jumpsquat, this is essentially Frame 6. This could be a good alternative to his awful grab, hah.
 
Last edited:

Firefoxx

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
344
Location
Bloomington, IL
NNID
Firefoxx200
3DS FC
1821-9385-9105
Thunder Jolt (arc)
Frame 1-30: 6%(+1) 25b/20g 361° 0.3-Hitlag Electric Ground-Target-Only
Frame 1-30: 5%(+1) 13b/20g 361° 0.3-Hitlag Electric Aerial-Target-Only
Frame 31-60: 5%(+1) 25b/20g 361° 0.3-Hitlag Electric Ground-Target-Only
Frame 31-60: 4%(+1) 13b/20g 361° 0.3-Hitlag Electric Aerial-Target-Only
Frame 61-62: 4%(+1) 25b/20g 361° 0.3-Hitlag Electric Ground-Target-Only
Frame 61-62: 3%(+1) 13b/20g 361° 0.3-Hitlag Electric Aerial-Target-Only
Max Damage: 6%

Thunder Wave (arc)
Frame 1- 2: 1%(+1) 70b/30g 90° 2.0-Hitlag Electric Aerial-Target-Only
Frame 1-10: 3%(+1) 25b/100g (KO@ 435%) 361° 2.0-Hitlag Stun Ground-Target-Only
Frame 11-18: 2%(+1) 20b/100g (KO@ 564%) 361° 1.6-Hitlag Stun Ground-Target-Only
Frame 19-20: 2%(+1) 15b/100g (KO@ 582%) 361° Stun Ground-Target-Only
Max Damage: 3%

This is from last patch. looks like about a 1/3rd the distance if they travel the same speed.

Also, don't get hit the first 10 frames of Wave I guess
 
Last edited:

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
I was talking about vs Denti.

I browse reddit too you know lol

The amount of pure hsb kills in comparison to stun infinites should tell which of the two is actually more relevant.
Oh, I didn't see it on Reddit, ha-ha

And ah, you meant vs Denti... nvm, then.
 

Gawain

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
1,076
NNID
Gawain
3DS FC
5069-4113-9796
So to talk more about the thunder combo. It might be a LITTLE too high reward for so little risk. Though, first off, I'm pretty sure that's not infinite. Once he goes over the stage it should be fine right? Other infinite/zero to death combos are considerably more execution demanding, like using LFK into footstool etc. Not really sure how you fix this one though. I think making it send them vertically upwards (like the stun on LFK does) would make it perfect though, in my opinion. You could still do crazy stuff like footstooling and using that one custom up b to lock them, but it wouldn't be as easy or free.

I dunno, I'm against removing completely anything that speeds the game along though.
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
So to talk more about the thunder combo. It might be a LITTLE too high reward for so little risk. Though, first off, I'm pretty sure that's not infinite. Once he goes over the stage it should be fine right? Other infinite/zero to death combos are considerably more execution demanding, like using LFK into footstool etc. Not really sure how you fix this one though. I think making it send them vertically upwards (like the stun on LFK does) would make it perfect though, in my opinion. You could still do crazy stuff like footstooling and using that one custom up b to lock them, but it wouldn't be as easy or free.

I dunno, I'm against removing completely anything that speeds the game along though.
I don't see why you couldn't just B-Reverse a Neutral-B behind the opponent and keep it going from where ESAM was in the gfycat.
 

Man Li Gi

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
1,240
NNID
ManLiGi
this makes me mad

i mean its not even fun to watch

this type of thing i feel is just super unhealthy for competitive, since it just makes it boring from a spectators standpoint and the game gets completely thrown.
Why would this make you mad? I mean it's good that this mean exists so then players can learn what to prepare for. The more we know, the more we prepare. Oh and please don't go around using that "specator" crap. The times that that term gets thrown around is when people don't necessarily have the foundation to stand on for their argument only then to say something akin to "SEE THESE PEOPLE DON'T LIKE IT EITHER SO I'M RIGHT GUYZZZZZZ!!!!!!!". That is a fallacy called argumentum ad populum (appeal to the masses). I'm not even sure if you represent the masses as I was enjoying that gif.

Also, I find it odd that people want to bash on customs or custom comobos when in a series that has been dictated shine/pillar combos, huge uair shenanigans (Pika in 64), and then the infinite recovery, swiss army knife in neutral, king named MK. Honestly, if customs are the worst of it in SSB4, then as D1 loves to say, "We Livin'".
 

Luigi player

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2004
Messages
4,106
Location
Austria
Last edited:

Gawain

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
1,076
NNID
Gawain
3DS FC
5069-4113-9796
I don't see why you couldn't just B-Reverse a Neutral-B behind the opponent and keep it going from where ESAM was in the gfycat.
Oh yeah, good point, hadn't thought it through all the way. I think the idea of having it launch them at a 45 degree angle after the stun is more than fair enough though.
 

Project Quarantine

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 21, 2014
Messages
125
Location
Minnesota
NNID
ianwit8
Ito's Meta Knight just 2-stocked Zex (sheik, diddy) twice in Winners Finals of Come on and Ban 21. I'm saying meta knight is high tier, and I wouldn't be surprised if Ito started placing at nationals. BibleThump

Lookin like brawl out there
 

Ikes

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
477
Location
Yoshi's Island
NNID
Smooth_Moonman
Why would this make you mad? I mean it's good that this mean exists so then players can learn what to prepare for. The more we know, the more we prepare. Oh and please don't go around using that "specator" crap. The times that that term gets thrown around is when people don't necessarily have the foundation to stand on for their argument only then to say something akin to "SEE THESE PEOPLE DON'T LIKE IT EITHER SO I'M RIGHT GUYZZZZZZ!!!!!!!". That is a fallacy called argumentum ad populum (appeal to the masses). I'm not even sure if you represent the masses as I was enjoying that gif.

Also, I find it odd that people want to bash on customs or custom comobos when in a series that has been dictated shine/pillar combos, huge uair shenanigans (Pika in 64), and then the infinite recovery, swiss army knife in neutral, king named MK. Honestly, if customs are the worst of it in SSB4, then as D1 loves to say, "We Livin'".
except in Melee infinites were flashy and cool to watch, they were all very exciting
in Brawl it was some really terrifying chain grabs, also fun to watch

in this we get pikachus shorthopping and firing a little ball while moving forward. then they use tackle. it's really boring from a spectator standpoint, and relative to the other games, requires siginificantly less effort.
 

Macedonian

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
153
Why would this make you mad? I mean it's good that this mean exists so then players can learn what to prepare for. The more we know, the more we prepare. Oh and please don't go around using that "specator" crap. The times that that term gets thrown around is when people don't necessarily have the foundation to stand on for their argument only then to say something akin to "SEE THESE PEOPLE DON'T LIKE IT EITHER SO I'M RIGHT GUYZZZZZZ!!!!!!!". That is a fallacy called argumentum ad populum (appeal to the masses). I'm not even sure if you represent the masses as I was enjoying that gif.

Also, I find it odd that people want to bash on customs or custom comobos when in a series that has been dictated shine/pillar combos, huge uair shenanigans (Pika in 64), and then the infinite recovery, swiss army knife in neutral, king named MK. Honestly, if customs are the worst of it in SSB4, then as D1 loves to say, "We Livin'".
Please do not undervalue the importance of somthing being boring as **** to watch. I don't know of you ever followed competitive starcraft but over there we took massive hits in popularity when brood lord infestor was the highlight of the meta, and then again when swarm host wars started.

For those of you that don't know of follow SC, it got boring to watch is basically all you need to know. Loosing viewer base is very very bad for a game, less sponsors means less money in the scene which means less large tournaments, less full time players, less of a scene.

I know this all seems kind of random and like a tangent, but I think this is somthing often underemphasized. We are a GAME, made to be FUN and ENJOYABLE. This means making somthing enjoyable for the masses is imperative to the competitive health of the game. Because conversely It's shown in the past that having Unenjoyable gameplay has had negative impacts on the health of some games.
 

Gawain

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
1,076
NNID
Gawain
3DS FC
5069-4113-9796
except in Melee infinites were flashy and cool to watch, they were all very exciting
in Brawl it was some really terrifying chain grabs, also fun to watch

in this we get pikachus shorthopping and firing a little ball while moving forward. then they use tackle. it's really boring from a spectator standpoint, and relative to the other games, requires siginificantly less effort.
There are still cool zero to death combos in this game.
http://smashboards.com/threads/footsool-combos-update-different-video-actual-locks-now.398974/page-2
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom