Character Competitive Impressions

[Ikes]

There are still cool zero to death combos in this game.
http://smashboards.com/threads/footsool-combos-update-different-video-actual-locks-now.398974/page-2

sure, but the one posted are the ones that are whooly harmful. footstool infinites still require a lot of precision and timing and tons of practice, and in comparison thunder wave infinites are easy.

 

[Gawain]

sure, but the one posted are the ones that are whooly harmful. footstool infinites still require a lot of precision and timing and tons of practice, and in comparison thunder wave infinites are easy.

I don't think they're quite as easy as they look. To get them to go infinite you need to incorporate footstools as well as a custom up b which happens to not be legal in the same set for any of the Evo custom setups. Otherwise it only works up to the lowish end of the high percents. Of course, HSB makes that not matter quite as much as long as you get a good walk to one end of the stage. I still think it looks plenty cool. Out of that whole tournament he only got the combo off a few times (or was it once?). He dropped it many, many times. Also, you have to go in hard to get the combo. You have to commit a lot of your forward momentum otherwise you're too far away to keep it going (unless your opponent messes up). So if they shield it you're probably getting punished.

I still think it looks pretty sweet. I don't mind it all that much to be honest.

 

[warionumbah2]

Ito's Meta Knight just 2-stocked Zex (sheik, diddy) twice in Winners Finals of Come on and Ban 21. I'm saying meta knight is high tier, and I wouldn't be surprised if Ito started placing at nationals. BibleThump

Lookin like brawl out there

It was absolutely disgusting.

Love how he camped Luigi, if you pick a snail against a bat why approach?

 

[TriTails]

Whoa.

First thing first.

I haven't actually made a list since the last patch day, so here:
Final 1.0.7 Tier Guess List

1v1, no customs, ordered within each level:


1v1, customs + Miis, ordered within each level--each level relative to the above:

Get that plumber outta your Top 2.

As far as I know, Luigi has a really bad MU against and and possibly some others at least.

Villager isn't that bad. Fireballs sort of murders his Rockets, and if Luigi plays the MU patiently with shields and not running to stupid slingshots it's manageable. Once Luigi gets in all Villager has is N-air, which frankly isn't the best combo breaker. This MU can be won if Luigi plays it right and stay unpredictable.

(And Luigi MUST NEVER. RECOVER. LOW. EVER! What. I don't care if Villager has great U-air or stuffs like that. I AIN'T RISKING MY STOCK GETTING A BOWLING BALL SHOVED TO MY FACE AND DIE AT LIKE 40%!)

Mega is interesting. @ Thinkaman (I'm not sure who's to tag to help me), could you test if shield drop lag (7 frames) is replaced by shield stun? @Greward mentioned that if Luigi shields lemons, his shield drop lag is replaced by shield stun lemons cause (In this case, lemons does 1 frame of shieldstun), and he can gain quite big frame advantage he can use to approach. I tried to test it, and it SEEMS that it's true, buuuttt... maybe it's just me who is dumb who can't notice the difference between 1 frame and 7 frames. Plus, doing it on lvl 9 CPUs on Training Mode because 3DS is a complete chore because all they do is spam MBs and CBs.

If this is true, at least Mega will not be a hard-counter to Luigi anymore...

are all kinda bad for Luigi because of their abilities to keep him out and/or do anything they want on the ground because things that are safe on shield against Luigi wouldn't be if it was another character. They make it exceptionally hard for him to approach.

There are more, but it goes to 55:45 level matchups that I don't feel are dominate enough to get into atm.

Edit: Adding a few other characters based on the discussion below:

I think we may need to take off TL. Hillarious thing is, we think TL is one of our harder MUs. Meanwhile, TL boards think we counters them...

Proper use of Fireballs seem to be useful in this MU. We don't throw them mindlessly, but instead use them sparingly and shield his projectiles. We just have to stay patient here, really. And once we gets in, it's fisticuffing time. Did I mention he dies fairly early to HooHahNado?

but his fireballs shut down all the other swords.

This is false. How the hell does Luigi shuts down Ike/Marth/MK with the B button alone?

Falco actually does decent against Luigi

No.

(if you take every character's run speed and air speed then averaged them out against each other character, Luigi has the worst mobility in the game)

Not sure where you're getting at, but and exist.

I'm sorry, Fireball ain't going to shut down things like MK's multi-jumps, Link's Hylian Shield, Shulk's Monado Arts of Speed or Jumping, or Ike's/Marth's/Lucina's sheer range and vastly superior air or ground speed.

Very true.

Yes I'm over simplifying things, but there is no reason why Luigi should be winning those MUs. As long as the swords are hitting with the max amount of spacing and force Luigi to shield or at least stop approaching, he's going to get pushed back and not gain ground. They all have ways to maximize spacing with little to no ending lag, and all of their attacks swat out Fireballs. The reason why Luigi is currently winning those encounters is because the swords aren't abusing their advantages. Link might end up being 50/50 because his projectiles are slower and his mobility specs are less compared to the others, but the others? No.

Why the hell Luigi is ever approaching swordies. (Except Link and TL).

Spam Fireballs till they come. Fireballs has more range and I really don't care if you swat away my Fireballs because you are not doing any direct harm to me, nor you are really threatening me. Nothing really stops me from spamming Fireballs if people has no projectiles to counter me. You mess up, you take damage. I mess up, I'm fine and dandy.

If there's something I'm missing, tell me.

 

[Thinkaman]

A thought: Is there anyone who willingly accepts that their main is top 3?

I think we've painted the Sheiks into a corner and held them at gunpoint until they cried uncle. ("Fine, Sheik is the best, leave us alone.")

But everyone else has avoided getting pegged down as being so high. Every once in awhile I see a Rosalina main claim to be near the top, but I think that's caused by an underlining "narrative of potential" surrounding the character. (Everyone loves to talk about how much potential Rosalina's design has, just as they will endlessly mention Mac's poor recovery.) I also sometimes see Brawler players boldly claiming a top spot, which always comes across as asserting a defiant reminder that their character exists.

Luigi is good, but is he top 3?
Diddy is good, but is he top 3?
Rosalina is good, but is she top 3?
ZSS is good, but is she top 3?
Sonic is good, but is he top 3?
Ness is good, but is he top 3?
Brawler is good, but is he top 3?

To be honest, the amount I care about who precisely is /*~*TOP [X]*~*\ is smaller than WFT's dair hitbox. But I care about the rates of change of usage/placement (aka MK on the rise), and the community attitudes surrounding it all.

 

[Mario766]

Luigi shuts down Ike for a way different reason than the b button. Fireball just helps Luigi a ton in the match-up. Nair isn't useful as a spacing tool because when it clanks with fireball Luigi can dash grab. Ike has to use F-Air or B-Air to space him out, or better yet just shield drop jab or jab the fireball. Luigi just gets a ton of damage off Ike with one grab and it's hard for Ike to stop the combo when it starts, but if Ike can whether the storm he's pretty good at edgeguarding Luigi unless Luigi can tornado very well and doesn't get read. Luigi can't really recovery high in the match-up, Ragnell is big enough to swat Missile.

 

[Shaya]

Out of those characters you listed:
Luigi is a power character with as much hype as anti-hype. He may not fit the mound of a "Smash" top tier due to perceived weaknesses (and apparently some bad match ups we never see in tournament), but he is the best dash grabber + grab reward combination in the game right now. Until we see the meta settle with him as such a centrefold it's hard to be certain, but if we were to consider right now, Luigi is undeniably within the top 3 threats to your tournament life expectancy.

Then there's Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS and Sonic.
Sonic likely has disadvantaged match ups (but probably none that could claim a real advantage imo) and their mains haven't been doing that crash hot as of late. Out of sight out of mind I suppose? The whole "try to hit me" factor of Sonic makes him so abusive against a majority of the cast though (although few are hoarding that strategy... yet).
No one can make a real claim to be diddy kryptonite; Luigi? Olimar? Maybe. Does he have disgusting advantages? I don't think he does anymore. Brawl rhetoric probably applies to him now, "no disadvantages, no real advantages either".
Similar feelings can be said for Rosa, although Rosa mains tend to be all over the shop with match up opinions, the character does have shutting down factor and no top tier around her seems to really pose her threats (although I thought ZSS won since early on, Diddy may still be slight advantage, Olimar perhaps)

Okay *deep breath* bias intensifies
Then there's ZSS, quiet assassin. The way things currently are her worst match up may be Sheik while potentially having the best against Sheik match up in the game. In terms of difficulty or non-nairo (or Choco) results, things look pretty poor for her... I can't deny that. Her toughest match ups by far were made noticeably easier in the last patch. There's enough reason to believe she has a solid advantage on Luigi too. But then she has a 16 frame grab. In my opinion she has the second best match up spread in the game (it's hard to think she has problems when nothing really shuts her down and she can turn single hits into stocks), but I struggle to feel comfortable with placing her top 3. On the other side of things she can argue disgusting advantages on a lot of middle / lower tier characters (up and coming characters like MK and ROB consider ZSS as one/if not their worst match ups). Pika, Olimar and Ness (maybe *hack cough Toon Link cough hack*) are maybe living the dream.

Mii Brawler seems to fit in fine as top 3 in customs meta if you have a similar mindset to placement as Luigi. More widespread results than Pikachu; everyone loves to hate him. Tiny brawler mains have literally gone into the hyperbolic time chamber or at least they're hiding in some other dimension to power up for Evo. Evo's bone chilling coldness is coming (although I feel like Ranai is going to pull an Apex 2013 Salem taking out ZeRo in last stock last hit two best of fives for grand finals)

 

[GeneralLedge]

Tiny brawler mains have literally gone into the hyperbolic time chamber

P-R-R-R-R-R-INCE!!

On that note, vs Brawler:

- Avoid getting grabbed
- Avoid recovering high (and for the love of god fast-fall below ledge-height if you can afford to)
- Avoid Delphino Plaza (or probably any transforming walk-off stage)

I'd contemplate anyone with range beating Brawler, but hot damn is a kill setup at 40% (until, like, 75%) scary.

 

[mimgrim]

A thought: Is there anyone who willingly accepts that their main is top 3?

He isn't one of your listed characters but I fully believe Wario will end up top 3.

 

[TriTails]

A thought: Is there anyone who willingly accepts that their main is top 3?

Not me, and kind of rightfully so.

My main has too much problem to be in top 3. Hell, I don't even consider him top tier. Not now, and possibly not in the future unless someone manages to find some amazing Galaxy-tier Luigi tech or a balance patch drops in. Because simple, people aren't exploiting him enough.

Although, what tier Luigi ends up to doesn't really faze me at the end anyway. I like him as a character, so I'm just going to main him nonetheless. And I kinda dislike Luigi representation in this. Like, what's this? 2000? Where Luigi was basically being s**t'd by everyone? Yeahno. But that's another story...

Anyway, copy-pasting my earlier post here.

Mega is interesting. Thinkaman (I'm not sure who's to tag to help me), could you test if shield drop lag (7 frames) is replaced by shield stun? Greward mentioned that if Luigi shields lemons, his shield drop lag is replaced by shield stun lemons cause (In this case, lemons does 1 frame of shieldstun), and he can gain quite big frame advantage he can use to approach. I tried to test it, and it SEEMS that it's true, buuuttt... maybe it's just me who is dumb who can't notice the difference between 1 frame and 7 frames. Plus, doing it on lvl 9 CPUs on Training Mode because 3DS is a complete chore because all they do is spam MBs and CBs.

Removing the tags because they may be annoying.

 

[Antonykun]

A thought: Is there anyone who willingly accepts that their main is top 3?

I think we've painted the Sheiks into a corner and held them at gunpoint until they cried uncle. ("Fine, Sheik is the best, leave us alone.")

But everyone else has avoided getting pegged down as being so high. Every once in awhile I see a Rosalina main claim to be near the top, but I think that's caused by an underlining "narrative of potential" surrounding the character. (Everyone loves to talk about how much potential Rosalina's design has, just as they will endlessly mention Mac's poor recovery.) I also sometimes see Brawler players boldly claiming a top spot, which always comes across as asserting a defiant reminder that their character exists.

Luigi is good, but is he top 3?
Diddy is good, but is he top 3?
Rosalina is good, but is she top 3?
ZSS is good, but is she top 3?
Sonic is good, but is he top 3?
Ness is good, but is he top 3?
Brawler is good, but is he top 3?

To be honest, the amount I care about who precisely is /*~*TOP [X]*~*\ is smaller than WFT's dair hitbox. But I care about the rates of change of usage/placement (aka MK on the rise), and the community attitudes surrounding it all.

tbh the only reason why i would put pikachu as the best character is because i will get f-air stringed into Bouncing Fish to death by everyone else
This character is ridiculous

 

[TriTails]

tbh the only reason why i would put pikachu as the best character is because i will get f-air stringed into death
This character is ridiculous

Tbh the only reason why I would put Villager as the best character is because I will get bowling ball'd off-stage and die at like 40%.

Who's ridiculous now?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

A thought: Is there anyone who willingly accepts that their main is top 3?

I'm pretty sure the Pikachu players do.

 

[Thinkaman]

He isn't one of your listed cyaracters but I fully believe Wario will end up top 3.

I think Villager, Wario, and Fox could "currently one day" be a top character in this game, but I'd want to see broader results before I subscribe to this notion.

I expect Wario to go up from where I placed him. I don't expect the others to go up much, much less to top 3, but it's fathomable.

 

[Antonykun]

Tbh the only reason why I would put Villager as the best character is because I will get bowling ball'd off-stage and die at like 40%.

Who's ridiculous now?

i meant Sheik's F-air whoops forgot about Pika's sexy f-air

 

[Firefoxx]

Currently, Luigi has the third most reported wins in tournaments since the patch and stays in third when you take away results in locals (while Falcon falls from 2nd to 5th and Diddy rises from 4th to 1st). IN THIS META, its hard to argue that he's anything less than top 5. He has become as much a tournament mainstay as Sheik, Diddy, Falcon, and Fox.

(but if you do just reported wins in tourneys bigger than locals since 5/12 Duck Hunt(!) is tied for second with Falcon and ROB(!) sneaks into a tie for 4th with Fox, Sheik, Luigi, and Pikachu.)

 

[Nocally]

I'll Gladly accept Pikachu as a top 3 character, at least in a custom ON meta game. In a vanilla setting, a lot of other characters has similar strengths or better tools to compete against other characters, so a top 3 placement could be hard to argue for at the moment.

 

[Thinkaman]

Currently, Luigi has the third most reported wins in tournaments since the patch and stays in third when you take away results in locals (while Falcon falls from 2nd to 5th and Diddy rises from 4th to 1st). IN THIS META, its hard to argue that he's anything less than top 5. He has become as much a tournament mainstay as Sheik, Diddy, Falcon, and Fox.

This is my reasoning as well.

Falcon is over-represented by the player base in every smash game, for obvious reasons. (You won't hear my complaining; I'm not on-board the Falcon groan train.)

Diddy, in a slightly similar way, is over-developed in the wake of 1.0.4. (More players have more experience using him.)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Villager, Wario, and Fox could "currently one day" be a top character in this game, but I'd want to see broader results before I subscribe to this notion.

Not gonna happen with Fox unless Yoshi gets nerfed imo.

 

[Thinkaman]

Not gonna happen with Fox unless Yoshi gets nerfed imo.

The thing is, Yoshi representation (at least in terms of big results) is so sparse that this doesn't seem like a factor, at least not pragmatically.

I'm the first to parade Yoshi's around as a great character, but I don't see a non-existent character holding anyone back.

Edit: I have no idea about this matchup regardless.

 

[Yikarur]

Except the Yoshi vs. Fox is even but ok

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Except the Yoshi vs. Fox is even but ok

... maybe yours.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I still don't understand why fox players think Yoshi's slow as hell (compared to fox sheik luigi mario etc. at least) frame data can beat Fox.
Don't think jab or our nair can over centralize the entire match up to where it's a losing MU for fox. Git gud like Larry or Megafox and abuse Yoshi's frame data.

Also I'd say Luigi is top 3 for now until meta shift or something along with Pikachu and Sheik. Or a nerf lol
A player that never beats the top 3 in my city beat Megafox with Luigi by just using DownB gimps on his fox last night.
Anytime Mega went Mac, he'd switch to sheik and camp platforms for 5+ minutes but otherwise the two sets in GF was mostly luigi vs Fox. Eventually got to a point he was so annoyed with Luigi's free rewarding everything that he just got bored and ****ed around for awhile until he lost.

Dabuz @DabuzSensei 22h22 hours ago After playing Luigi for a couple weeks, i'm really liking...how ridiculously easy he is to play for high reward.

Ally and many others has voiced how brain dead Luigi is too, and it's so true. It feels like I'm watching prepatch diddy again, but with extremely more reward and a better off stage game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

A player that never beats the top 3 in my city beat Megafox with Luigi by just using DownB gimps on his fox last night.

Fox vs Luigi is just a backwards matchup. Fox has to run and camp pretty much the whole time. It's not that bad, it's just very stupid.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario has a lot going for him, but I don't see the raw mobility and flexibility on spacing tools that a character like Sheik or Sonic getting eclipsed.

I've been finding a whole lot, though. N-Air and U-Air are a lot better than I initially gave them credit for and have surprisingly great synergy with each other.

EDIT:

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Whoa.

Not sure where you're getting at, but and exist.

Why the hell Luigi is ever approaching swordies. (Except Link and TL).

Spam Fireballs till they come. Fireballs has more range and I really don't care if you swat away my Fireballs because you are not doing any direct harm to me, nor you are really threatening me. Nothing really stops me from spamming Fireballs if people has no projectiles to counter me. You mess up, you take damage. I mess up, I'm fine and dandy.

1) My bad, I remember the video wrong. Wasn't overall mobility, it was strictly air mobility (averaging out horizontal air speed with fast fall speed) that Luigi came dead last in. https://youtu.be/yMWRRzwSHag?t=2m47s His run speed is pretty "bleh" though, and he's without a doubt in the bottom 10 for overall mobility, maybe bottom 5.

2) Luigi is approaching swordies if he's lost the lead and the swordies finally do what I've been saying they should do (and apparently a MK just recently did!): run away and camp upon gaining the lead. Only Link is flat out slower than Luigi on the ground, with Ike and Swordfighter Mii being tied on the ground, and every swordie is faster in the air. Fireballs sure ain't fast enough to really catch them either. Luigi wants people to approach him so he can fish for a grab: don't let him play his game. Make him play the one he sucks at and the one that doesn't really allow him to go for a grab.

 

[Djent]

I don't main but I have dabbled in him (especially when less confident in 's staying power, though that worry has been momentarily assuaged). I think he is Literally Satan.

 

[Cassio]

I'm pretty sure the Pikachu players do.

I wouldnt say he is now or that hes guaranteed a spot. But there's certainly several critical tools Ive mentioned before that are missing from his current gameplay thatll shake up the metagame.

The way things currently are her worst match up may be Sheik while potentially having the best against Sheik match up in the game.
...
In my opinion (ZSS) has the second best match up spread in the game

What are these MU spreads then?

Also slightly tangential, but just as an interesting note about a week ago Mr. R reiterated he felt pikachu was still sheiks hardest MU (which surprised me) followed my sonic. Then he listed a few other potentials I forget.

 

[Coffee™]

Not gonna happen with Fox unless Yoshi gets nerfed imo.

What makes the matchup that hard for Fox?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

A thought: Is there anyone who willingly accepts that their main is top 3?

I think we've painted the Sheiks into a corner and held them at gunpoint until they cried uncle. ("Fine, Sheik is the best, leave us alone.")

But everyone else has avoided getting pegged down as being so high. Every once in awhile I see a Rosalina main claim to be near the top, but I think that's caused by an underlining "narrative of potential" surrounding the character. (Everyone loves to talk about how much potential Rosalina's design has, just as they will endlessly mention Mac's poor recovery.) I also sometimes see Brawler players boldly claiming a top spot, which always comes across as asserting a defiant reminder that their character exists.

Luigi is good, but is he top 3?
Diddy is good, but is he top 3?
Rosalina is good, but is she top 3?
ZSS is good, but is she top 3?
Sonic is good, but is he top 3?
Ness is good, but is he top 3?
Brawler is good, but is he top 3?

To be honest, the amount I care about who precisely is /*~*TOP [X]*~*\ is smaller than WFT's dair hitbox. But I care about the rates of change of usage/placement (aka MK on the rise), and the community attitudes surrounding it all.

I'd easily believe claims that Rosalina is top 3. I don't know enough about everyone else to make the claim myself, but it sounds reasonable enough on the surface.

I think Rosalina's future rank will depend heavily on how everyone else decides to deal with Luma.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The question is what is Fox supposed to do? He can't approach, camp or run away from Yoshi. He gets wrecked by Yoshi in a disadvantaged position and can't capitalize from an advantaged position nearly as much as he can against pretty much every other character. Unless Fox ouplays Yoshi in neutral [the only position where they can be argued to be on even grounds] he's not winning the matchup.

It's not like Brawl where Fox could just pressure Yoshi in neutral until he'd give in.

 

[bc1910]

Customs off, Sheik is probably the best character, I think most of her players accept that as well.

I personally think Sonic is still top 3, people say that Sonic isn't as good as other top 3 candidates because "he'd be everywhere/winning everything otherwise" but frankly I don't understand why he isn't. He's just amazing at everything, and that's on top of the "you can't hit me" thing. Some slight landing issues and not being great directly up close (though he's not bad at it either) are the only weaknesses I can really see for Sonic. I don't know why there's been a bit of a drop-off in Sonic lately, perhaps I'm missing something, but I agree that it's part of an out of sight, out of mind thing since many just... don't want to deal with that character. Yeah. Like I'm not 100% convinced Sonic is top 3 but if I was asked to list a top 3 right now, he'd be in there.

As for the final spot... Rosalina's customless MUs probably aren't strong enough to place her in top 3, her players think she goes even with a lot of random mid tiers as well as losing to some of the other top tiers. If everyone agreed that her MU spread was as good as some people are saying then I'd think she was top 3 but I don't think her MU spread is as good as that nor is that the general consensus. In customs, I think she gets significantly better. Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit are both really silly customs that make her already top tier zoning even better and generally seem to patch up her iffy MUs.

Luigi has a lot of problem MUs and I cannot believe he is top 3. BUT, that isn't really stopping his tournament results. I think it has a lot to do with his worst MUs mostly being with low high/high mid tiers like Mega Man, Pac-Man and Greninja, but whatever the reason, we aren't seeing him being held back by his MUs in practice even though he should be in theory. If his results continue at their current pace, top 3 will be reasonable in future.

I think Pikachu, Fox and Diddy are all possibly top 3.

Brawler seems to rely hugely on 60% kills and HK "jank", I don't know that much about him but from what I do know he's unreliable and inconsistent at high level, which isn't good. Top 10 probably, top 5 maybe, top 3 unlikely.

I am warming to the idea of a top 10 Ness, who I used to think was a quite overrated. I still have trouble believing he's top 5, I think there are at least 5 characters better than him. Ness is the anti-meta top tier, he kills you for shielding and if you mess up even slightly trying to edgeguard PKT2 you will die, but I don't think he's categorically better than many of the other top tiers. He competes with characters who have better mobility, better camping and better recoveries (it's risky to edgeguard Ness but still very possible, unlike with Sheik or ZSS who are extremely difficult to edgeguard). He is good though. And no matter which way you slice it he's better at killing than a lot of the other top tiers, which may end up being more important than his mobility and recovery weaknesses in the long run.

This brings me to ZSS. I have been so impressed with her lately, Nairo has been storming tournaments and she just looks insanely good. She even has the "jank" factor with comboable flip jump kills at stupid percents, and I think flip jump is a candidate for best move in the game anyway. But then yeah... 16 frame grab. It's terrible. It's reactable. And her other options against shield aren't amazing. If her grab was even 12 frames I would say she's top 3 no question and possibly better than Sheik but yeah, that grab is a major major issue.

I really don't know who I'd put in the top 3 alongside Sheik and Sonic. Very hard to decide. I suppose that's a good thing really, it speaks for the balance of the game. In customs I think it becomes a lot clearer that Sheik, Pikachu and Rosalina are the top 3 characters, probably in that order, though it's not totally clear.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sheik, Pikachu, and Sonic are pretty solidly the Top 3 in my mind. That kind of flexibility against the whole cast isn't really matched by any other characters.

 

[bc1910]

In other news, this article just surfaced detailing the balancing process behind Sm4sh. It's a little off-topic so I won't post reams and reams about it but since we talked about who the devs might consider the strongest characters to be a few pages back, I think this article is at least somewhat relevant. It's interesting nonetheless.

Greninja must have been a MASSIVE in-house problem to get nerfed as hard as he did, I mean jeez, for Sakurai to have approved all those nerfs at once... he was probably dominating in all game types. I wonder if they intended to make him with his current power level, like did they design him as a top character then change their minds to make him an average one? Or do they still think he's above average? I do think their first intention was probably to make him really strong but maybe they decided they went too far (though I do think pre-patch Hydro Pump's behaviour was a bug/oversight since it was just crazy).

I don't really understand Sheik's continued nerfs based on this, they keep hitting her kill power and I guess they think that's the best way forward to make her balanced across all game modes. However, I'd have thought she wouldn't be performing well in FFA where kill power means everything, or even in 2v2 where her nonsense can be interrupted by other players, why would they want to nerf her there? Nerfing her kill power is actually the least crippling in 1v1 I'd argue. Giving her a bit more kill power back in exchange for landing lag/Fair safety/worse needles might be a better way forward...

 

[FullMoon]

I could see Greninja being a general problem in his pre-nerf incarnation because in FFA charged Water Shurikens are probably pretty dangerous since if Greninja finds some time to charge while the others are busy fighting each other then they can all get caught in it and with low ending lag shuriken had before he could probably do a lot.

I have no idea how Greninja performs in 2v2, I don't think he's anything noteworthy there? I mean if paired with Villager things get pretty ridiculous but other than that he seems to be fairly underwhelming in that setting.

I do also remember seeing lots of complaints about his Up-Smash prior to the nerf so yeah.

And I think Hydro Pump was just an obvious issue lol.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I mean if paired with Villager things get pretty ridiculous

I feel like this could be applied to quite a large number of characters.

 

[Nu~]

I feel like this could be applied to quite a large number of characters.

Villager + Pac-Man

 

[FullMoon]

I feel like this could be applied to quite a large number of characters.

I'm pretty sure that if Greninja could store a charged shuriken, it would be the single best projectile in the game due to it's transcedent priority, huge hitbox, combo potential, shield pressure and even kill power. Villager can do that and have the shuriken kill people at 80% with it.

I think Greninja is probably one of Villager's best partners, especially because Greninja's speed complements Villager's zoning pretty well.

 

[Gawain]

A thought: Is there anyone who willingly accepts that their main is top 3?

I think we've painted the Sheiks into a corner and held them at gunpoint until they cried uncle. ("Fine, Sheik is the best, leave us alone.")

But everyone else has avoided getting pegged down as being so high. Every once in awhile I see a Rosalina main claim to be near the top, but I think that's caused by an underlining "narrative of potential" surrounding the character. (Everyone loves to talk about how much potential Rosalina's design has, just as they will endlessly mention Mac's poor recovery.) I also sometimes see Brawler players boldly claiming a top spot, which always comes across as asserting a defiant reminder that their character exists.

Luigi is good, but is he top 3?
Diddy is good, but is he top 3?
Rosalina is good, but is she top 3?
ZSS is good, but is she top 3?
Sonic is good, but is he top 3?
Ness is good, but is he top 3?
Brawler is good, but is he top 3?

To be honest, the amount I care about who precisely is /*~*TOP [X]*~*\ is smaller than WFT's dair hitbox. But I care about the rates of change of usage/placement (aka MK on the rise), and the community attitudes surrounding it all.

To be honest, I don't really care if someone plays a top tier. As a Falcon main, I don't mind playing Sheik. I have more fun vs Sheik than I do in lots of other matchups like Kirby and Rosalina. I don't really understand why some people have issues with people playing good characters, and I don't see why a lot of people playing those good characters get defensive and try to prove that they have weaknesses. Sorry, but a character like Rosalina has pretty much zero bad matchups. A couple are even or close to it, but none are bad. Don't even try to deny that she has few weaknesses.

 

[GeneralLedge]

In other news, this article just surfaced detailing the balancing process behind Sm4sh.

This got me thinking:

How feasible/infeasable would a pyramid-style FFA tournament be?

That is, the earliest matches would start out 4pFFA, and as players get eliminated (via points over multiple matches? idk), it slims down to 3pFFA, and the last few matches (to decide one clear victor) are 1v1.

Or would this cause salt mines to go out of business?