Character Competitive Impressions

[Nu~]

Pretty much. Until your character can bring some results, he/she will be sleep on. Do you have any video on Custom Pacman tournament gameplay? I want to see the 3 frames (is it 3 frames?) Meteor Trampoline in action.

Unfortunately, Chef Pac is against customs and Abadango prefers default only...Dabuz is probably going off of result alone.
And yup. Ledge trump to frame 3 spike on the regrab is legit.

 

[Antonykun]

2 things
1. WTH is brawler doing that far away from Swordfighter
2. Dabuz does realize that Gunner gets grenades with customs and that alone makes her much better in customs

 

[Pazx]

2 things
1. WTH is brawler doing that far away from Swordfighter
2. Dabuz does realize that Gunner gets grenades with customs and that alone makes her much better in customs

To me it looked like the star was for both Mii fighers... which is weird.

 

[Gawain]

Only he would put Rosa in a tier below sheik. Also Mario and Yoshi and villager above Cap?

 

[Man Li Gi]

Ganon's Brawl DA was considered one of his best moves even then, but it was overshadowed by hitstun mechanics making it poor for approaching (I think). As far as I know his Dash attack is only weaker in % and knockback. And to be honest, a Dash Attack that kills at 107% with no rage would be ultra OP with full rage.

It's good in this game for the same reason Ganon went from Trash tier to... well, all-over-the-place tier; massive "buffs" from system changes and changes to other characters.

Huh? I don't believe most Ganons ever used Brawl DA to approach, only to kill since it staled hella quick and as aforementioned, the lack of hitstun. Smash 4 DA is weaker, but stronger with combos, has less pushback (meaning in shields, it's worse added to the fact it doesn't ever cross up opponents). While it would be strong to be able to kill 107% (a bit too strong for some's taste), the term OP should never be in the realms of Ganon as Ganon is the definition too strong (most his moves kill at the same percentage/slightly later with no rage as they did in vBrawl, only heavy to really keep that characteristic).

@ Ikes
Though I feel the need to respond with hard truths and how hype in this situation is your way of using argumentum ad populum, i don't feel the need to bleed over this issue more than I already have. At this point, you have proven to me that you get salty a bit too easily or that you NEED to study up on Smash or fighting games in general as infinites aren't considered hype (especially when they are on the best characters in the each respective game).

 

[Dabuz]

WRT MK, I was debating putting him in B-Tier since I know Ito does work and so doesn someone in Japan, but I've only heard about them recently so i'm waiting to see if the results stay consistent. The star was meant for mii gunner, oops :X

 

[Antonykun]

WRT MK, I was debating putting him in B-Tier since I know Ito does work and so doesn someone in Japan, but I've only heard about them recently so i'm waiting to see if the results stay consistent. The star was meant for mii gunner, oops :X

Are you implying that swordfighter doesn't get significantly better with customs?

 

[Lavani]

Are you implying that swordfighter doesn't get significantly better with customs?

Does he though? Not that I play the character or anything but 113X seemed like a pretty ideal set to me and after Trela's showing last night I'm not even sure if Hero's Spin is really a huge trade up from the default upB seeing as that has invincibility and a pretty solid spike hit. I liked the cape downB in theory but when Gale Strike can eat projectiles anyway that isn't as big a deal.

 

[Ikes]

I still believe Fox is overrated, results aside. I have no issues with the top row in A-Tier, but I feel Pikachu belongs there. Meta Knight definitely belongs in B Tier, minimum. I feel Lucario, Doc and Kirby should also be in borderline. I do not really feel Bowser is Borderline, and should be lower. G&W, Palutena, should be higher for sure. Donkey Kong should be higher. Samus should definitely be in bottom as well.

I'm just waiting for Meta Knight to become the best character in smash 4 again just to feel like im playing brawl

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Apparently, you can buffer an item drop during a Ledge Jump with a Grab input. This puts the item hitbox out on the same frame you become vulnerable.

 

[Nu~]

Apparently, you can buffer an item drop during a Ledge Jump with a Grab input. This puts the item hitbox out on the same frame you become vulnerable.

LOL We're the only one.
Thank you for this

 

[Antonykun]

Does he though? Not that I play the character or anything but 113X seemed like a pretty ideal set to me and after Trela's showing last night I'm not even sure if Hero's Spin is really a huge trade up from the default upB seeing as that has invincibility and a pretty solid spike hit. I liked the cape downB in theory but when Gale Strike can eat projectiles anyway that isn't as big a deal.

I'm going to assume Miis are allowed size modifications in customs if so even Swordfighter gets boosts from being in customs
either way while the loss of Hero's Spin might be mitigated by Stone Scabbard Spikes (I do question the move's effectiveness once the meta evolves and people get more used to the move), the gain of Shuriken of Light and Power Thrust is indeed significant

Shuriken of Light is basically a watered down version of Sheiks needles with potentially more reward if its at max range

Power Thrust allows a character with mobility as limited as Swordfighter a burst mobility while also allowing him to edgeguard characters recovering mid, which the safest way people can recover against Swordfighter (assuming they are not Sheik/Pikachu who forces you to let them recover for free or villager who will not get gimped from down air even the suicide version)

 

[Ulevo]

Only he would put Rosa in a tier below sheik. Also Mario and Yoshi and villager above Cap?

To be fair, I definitely think top level Sheik deserves her own tier.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Since it wasn't posted yet, here's a pastebin where Dabuz outlines some basic reasoning for the tiers. Main takeaway is that he defines the borderline of "solo main viability" to be the lower half of C tier. It's unclear if this means he still considers his C- tier to be solo viable or not though. @ Dabuz can you clarify?

 

[Ffamran]

Since it wasn't posted yet, here's a pastebin where Dabuz outlines some basic reasoning for the tiers. Main takeaway is that he defines the borderline of "solo main viability" to be the lower half of C tier. It's unclear if this means he still considers his C- tier to be solo viable or not though. @ Dabuz can you clarify?

I like how Captain Falcon is mentioned twice in B and D-tier. Typo or autocorrect fun, eh?

Edit: This part on Captain Falcon can be applied to anyone: "whether that's because no top level player uses him or because he's not able to compete at top level is a hard distinction to make."

When Yoshi was brought up and on the top 5 or 3 of the Japanese tier list a while back or how people wonder about Pit, Wario, and such, this comes back. There's so many Captain Falcon, Mario, even Luigi, Sheik, and Diddy players, but here's the thing, only a few of them are actually good or borderline decent and passable for top level play. Some characters don't even have one name for a good player and when I mean good, I mean like ZeRo, Dabuz, aMSa, Ito, 6wX, Nietono, Ranai, Megafox, and Fatality good, but it's no surprise since this game is still young. We've just got our best Meta Knight player with Ito and it's almost been a year since Smash 4 was released.

So, you either get this misconception of a good character being bad or too good. Nobody in Japan can answer to Yoshidora, so Yoshi's inflated. Nobody plays a Pit good enough to be noticed, so Pit just lingers in Limbo. Someone good plays as Zelda, she gets inflated. Tons of Little Mac and Captain Falcon get bopped hard or overwhelm inexperienced players, so they either get inflated or deflated.

 

[Shaya]

@Cassio I forgot about the rodent. He definitely doesn't really seem to have much that holds him back either although I don't think he's as strong as ZSS (but he could still be a better overall character). I will still maintain mild pessimism towards him; if it wasn't for up tilt or back air being ludicrously hard to beat / avoid I wouldn't think he's that great at all. As a character that seems to want to put himself in the air for trapping/safety and for sneaky approaching, other characters abilities to KEEEL him for it should get better over time.

@ Nu~ Oli vs Sheik may be horrendous, but meanwhile, you want to know all the TOP TIER characters Olimar justifiably believes they have an advantage over (even if only slight)?


How many good characters does Pac have an arguable (and/or with tournament results to back it) advantage over?
No one.

I haven't seen enough of it but I could make roundabout assumptions that Falcon and Sonic could lose to Olimar too. Fox and the Mario Bros had issues in Brawl, I could see Luigi still having those issues with Olimar's fsmash keepaway likely ludicrously hard for Luigi to approach though (but at the same time fireballs negate a lot of Oli's camp too, not sure).

---

Also Sakurai was obviously reading my posts here if he commented "I could just make everyone as strong as Mario and everyone would be balanced/good".
SAKURAI / BALANCE TEAM DRONES: HALVE NEEDLE RANGE, MASSACRE FALCON AND LUIGI. Maybe nerf flip jump a little.
*balanced high tier*

 

[Ulevo]

To be fair, Ito has been the best Meta Knight for a while. It's just that he has not received any recognition until recent despite his tournament results, and the last major publicity he got when he took on Zero he flubbed due to nerves.

 

[Shaya]

Ito had results/good things, but this was ALL pre-patch.
He relied on diddy kong before hand. He only went MK against ZeRo because of the supreme knowledge that he had no chance in the ditto, and otherwise he got styled on by ZeRo's Falcon.

His results with MK were meagre (still the best MK in terms of results, but when you had a Diddy drop next to your name every time and nearly all tournament vids involved with him were Diddy....), he couldn't compete with any of the west coast diddys or sheiks without Diddy himself (he also actively avoided LA tournaments while going to both NorCal and South SoCal things).
Now that two of nearly everyone's worst match ups were nerfed, a lot of characters have opportunities to shine like high tiers.

 

[Nu~]

@ Nu~ Oli vs Sheik may be horrendous, but meanwhile, you want to know all the TOP TIER characters Olimar justifiably believes they have an advantage over (even if only slight)?


How many good characters does Pac have an arguable (and/or with tournament results to back it) advantage over?
No one.

http://youtu.be/yqEhuEbihFc
http://youtu.be/MGlh6B4Y-FQ
Pac vs diddy

http://youtu.be/F2WGd8Wp5d8
Pac vs falcon

http://youtu.be/71hBXt9DmAA
Pac vs luigi

Never thought you would be the one to ignore results. Btw, Pac-Men feel that luigi(luigi mains feel similarly),Ness, and diddy are in our favor, though that probably won't mean much to you since you believe we pull stuff out of nowhere.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm going to regret posting this, aren't I? Being all hard ***...

To be fair, Ito has been the best Meta Knight for a while. It's just that he has not received any recognition until recent despite his tournament results, and the last major publicity he got when he took on Zero he flubbed due to nerves.

With or without being noticed, you think people even care? Ito plays a good Meta Knight, took a set off of ZeRo while ZeRo was trying to figure him out, and is taking tournaments after figuring out 6wX's Sonic, but unless you're a Meta Knight main, supporter, or someone really paranoid, nobody's going to even glance at Ito. I mean, why? Ito's in California, Dabuz is in New Jersey. Dabuz has nothing to fear unless Ito makes an announcement he's going to to NJ and even then, why should Dabuz care? Ito might be a nobody to him and he's not an immediate danger. Unless there was an influx of top level Meta Knight players, then there's nothing to fear. Right now, there's only one and that barely applies to the rest of the cast even with "easy, braindead, super, OP" characters like Sheik, Luigi, Rosalina, *insert name here*. Sheik's not dangerous unless it's Zex, Hitaku, ZeRo, or someone actually competent with her. That goes for everyone.

If everyone character had at least one good player, then there wouldn't be much, but people do pick characters based on ease of use, play style, and with the aim to win. That leads to an influx of Diddy, Sheik, Luigi, and Captain Falcon players. That skews their results to where Diddy is way too strong or Captain Falcon is way too linear. That also leads to outcries, complaints, and other dismissals of characters not immediate dangers because they're not popular and not notable. In an alternate world, Pikachu could have been the Diddy, ZSS could have been the Rosalina, Mario could have been the Luigi and it would be the same thing over and over where Diddy could have been that underplayed secret top tier killer, Luigi was the underlooked high tier, or Rosalina was the bane of everyone's existence because half the players played her at a competent level.

People ask for results, but results get ignored. Morton's fork, eh? Ito's Meta Knight could win EVO and both of them could be labeled as cheaters with Ito using an "OP" character with "infinite Uairs" or Ito just "got lucky" and Meta Knight is still a garbage.

 

[Firefoxx]

http://youtu.be/yqEhuEbihFc
http://youtu.be/MGlh6B4Y-FQ
Pac vs diddy

http://youtu.be/F2WGd8Wp5d8
Pac vs falcon

http://youtu.be/71hBXt9DmAA
Pac vs luigi

Never thought you would be the one to ignore results. Btw, Pac-Men feel that luigi(luigi mains feel similarly),Ness, and diddy are in our favor, though that probably won't mean much to you since you believe we pull stuff out of nowhere.

Keitaro and Aerolink aren't what I would consider top tier diddy's even pre-patch. And despite his fame for reseting the bracket against ZeRo I don't think Mr. ConCon is on that level either.

saiya is awesome and I would 100% be willing to believe Pac wins/does well in that matchup.

edit: I could also see him doing well against Luigi

 

[Shaya]

Those one off instances of player vs player (exception of Abadango vs Saiya)... aren't ignored, they're just ... 2 month into the game footage between players (and maybe match ups) that have never come up against each other.

And Firefoxx and I are literally on that same wavelength

 

[Firefoxx]

Legit Pac-Man question. Is charging for Key after you take a stock always the best plan?

 

[Nu~]

Legit Pac-Man question. Is charging for Key after you take a stock always the best plan?

Nope. Whatever fruit you charge depends on your next plan. Galaxian is good for starting off with combos, Melon is for helping you approach, or you can stick with strawberry and cherry for DITCIT toss combos and harassment.

We even place a trampoline under the spawn plate to take away the opponent's invincibility (this is so cruel to poor olimar)

 

[Man Li Gi]

Just reposting this as it's relevant here:
"
Since when did having to discuss tier lists= actual character analysis? I can't go at least 1 page without having to sift through people's slight alteration and people arguing about where their character ranks. At this point, I say it's extremely trivial as we kmow that DLC/possible patches are going to be happening monthly ( from August I believe there will be one and then in October we see the character ballots come in).

I normally don't dislike tier lists, but given how patches come and go along with having to different people come and say I don't think Luigi is spot 7, but is spot 3; etc. At this point, I would say who and what dictates the meta's tier lists are what the top player is doing.

If ZeRo were to pick Luigi up and completely dump Sheik right now and have the same results as he does now, people would argue that Luigi is the best even with the flaws he has. He would become number 1 in tier lists and people would say "Yeah he has flaws but ZeRo tho" or something along those lines.

This is why I would wish instead of having the go to easy copout answer in the form of tier lists with bare bone analysis, I wish we go in deep, so that average or casual player can come here and leave with an understanding a character's flaws and strengths and possible ways to circumvent or otherwise not be bogged down by them so much so it becomes a delibating issue.

I know that character boards exist but they are so wrapped up in themselves and possibly have warped visions of what characters can do to them and what THEIR character can do with them ( I remember the early days of Ganon Wii U where the MU said we even with Mario, Yoshi and Luigi while the Pacs are a whole new monster breed of hubris). If we simply melded all of the analysis we had of each character ( of course your character of expertise) we wouldn't have to say, "Well my character has X so that counters Y, thus thoroughly denying your claims.""
Seriously, people aren't actually analyzing but are easily making up tier lists and I ask HOW/WHY?

@ Nu~
I will say it again, how and why does Pac supposedly win all these MUs? If this was the case, can't Pac theoretically taking tourneys by storm? Please actually give us (especially me) the skinny how Pac wins every MU.

 

[Blobface]

What match ups is Pac-man bad in?

 

[DunnoBro]

I think a lot of characters customs, like Shulk's and DHD's are potentially great but so different and technical they require more investment into understanding than the average player can do.

Zigzag is almost impossible to use on wifi (even a few frames of delay ruin every frame trap/combo except buffered auto combos) So I had to go the extra mile for practice, and consistently did worse than default days the first few weeks at S@X.

(It's also a headache to use in friendlies because people play so ham and reckless, you don't get as much feel for the frame traps which are why it's so good as it punishes defensive options)

Likewise for shulk, I bet that monado cancel stuff is hard to practice on wifi. And toon link frame traps with fire arrows, GnW air dodge catches with heavy trampoline...

When they were first legalized, we saw easy to use characters/customs making a splash, and much like when sm4sh first came out, I feel like our views on certain customs will change as time goes on.

(People said DHD and Sonic had bad customs for the longest time.)

 

[MachoCheeze]

@ Man Li Gi

I'm not Pacman9, but I can tell you what I think about the Luigi and Falcon MU. (I haven't fought a post-patch Diddy except for like once so I don't have much input on that).

What makes the C. Falcon and Luigi match in our favor (at least imo) is that we are able to ruin these characters approaches/are able to wall them out significantly. Trampoline are huge assets that force Falcon and Luigi to jump if they have to go in. Oranges are generally fast enough to zone them out and keep them at bay at a safe distant for us. Both of these characters' recoveries are pretty bad and Pac-Man has the ability to go deep for the kill and return with no problem due to our huge recovery.

Now if these characters actually are able to get in on us its a different story due to their insane damage outputs and quick attacks. But a good Pac-man should be able to keep these characters away from him or her without second though. We have so much control over the match and what the enemy does.

Just my two cents though. Hoped this helps! n_n

 

[MachoCheeze]

What match ups is Pac-man bad in?

I personally believe Sonic is our worse MU. We have to play extremely lame to get control over him. (Stalling on the ledge and using trampoline/hydrant traps the entire match). And even then these tactics are punishable if you mess up.

ROB is a hard MU imo too because he's able to keep us out with his superior projectiles, but if we get in on him aggressively he's going to take a lot of damage.

I personally have a hard time with Pikachu, ZSS, Fox, and honestly Bowser. Bowser just has the raw power to break through a lot of our stuff. We have a hard time landing against him cause a lot of his moves clank with the hydrant.

EDIT: Another thing to note about Pac's MU's is that a lot of us at the Pac boards think he has a lot of EVEN MU's. Pacman9 is a little overzealous, he's a good guy but he's pushy, but he knows Pac well. Pac has the tools to stay creative and the ability to change play styles easily. He's a character that takes A LOT of skill to get right, which is why you aren't going to see him a lot. He's super unconventional.

 

[Unknownkid]

I am not sure if this is allow here and I might get in trouble for this but....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmo6rFJDFsA&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8Jjz-V8jE4&feature=youtu.be

MAN I AM HYPE AS HECK! KIRBY GET MORE SPECIAL MOVES!

 

[bc1910]

^That might be better off in a spoiler tag since some people may not wish to know about it early.

So just in case...

Spoiler

This reddit post gives a little bit of info on the new patch, which apparently arrived early on Japanese servers. No idea if it's true but considering we have legit-looking classic ending movies, Ryu/Roy data already in the game and a direct before the patch suggesting it contains more than just Lucas, the post is probably legit. The most important things to take from it are Lucas, Roy and Ryu being added as new characters, a new Street Fighter stage, and... Dreamland 64 as a stage!!!!!!

I was NOT expecting 3 characters at once. I wonder what this means for future DLC, it could come a lot faster than I thought.

This is pretty baseless but I think Lucas will be good, we know his Dthrow is good and he won't have grab release issues. Ryu it's impossible to say, Roy is hard to pinpoint too but I hope he doesn't get the Mewtwo treatment where he gets ported and has his major flaws fixed but nothing more.

On topic: Once again I just want to say that this game has never been patched so hard for a previous tier list to be rendered completely obsolete. I see no issue with making them when patching has only ever changed one character's placement drastically. Metagame development, results and quite simply time have much bigger effects on tier lists.

 

[meleebrawler]

^That might be better off in a spoiler tag since some people may not wish to know about it early.

So just in case...

Spoiler

This reddit post gives a little bit of info on the new patch, which apparently arrived early on Japanese servers. No idea if it's true but considering we have legit-looking classic ending movies, Ryu/Roy data already in the game and a direct before the patch suggesting it contains more than just Lucas, the post is probably legit. The most important things to take from it are Lucas, Roy and Ryu being added as new characters, a new Street Fighter stage, and... Dreamland 64 as a stage!!!!!!

My predictions? Roy won't be that good if he gets the Mewtwo treatment, i.e. mostly a port that addresses his major flaws but doesn't really fix him. Having said that if he gets SH double Fair he'll probably be fine lol. Ryu I honestly don't know but I think he will be good, I expect him to be loyal to his SF incarnations and hence be fast and powerful, a bit like Falcon (though I don't think his movement will be as fast). Lucas will be good, I can see him getting general buffs like Ness, we know his Dthrow is good and he won't have grab release issues. Yay completely baseless speculation!

On topic: Once again I just want to say that this game has never been patched so hard for a previous tier list to be rendered completely obsolete. I see no issue with making them when patching has only ever changed one character's placement drastically. Metagame development, results and quite simply time have much bigger effects on tier lists.

Spoiler

Ryu doesn't move very fast in his games, in fact as far as I can recall his dashes were among the worst.
He'll probably be more defence oriented but has a unique niche in comboing with more IASA frames than any other
(dat crouching light kick to crouching medium kick to Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku). What surprised me the most is that
he used a Focus Attack from Street Fighter IV, both because I thought they'd stick mostly to the Nintendo exclusive
Street Fighter II and how it's gonna work in Smash.

 

[Luco]

Only he would put Rosa in a tier below sheik. Also Mario and Yoshi and villager above Cap?

Not at all. I think we have this stigma as a community that our 'top' character has to be in a tier of his or her own and this tier is S tier. To the contrary, I remember before the diddy nerf most people had Diddy and Sheik in the S tier by themselves, and once the diddy nerf came in Sheik was left there by herself. I think a few minor nerfs and Sheik would be put into the next tier down, making our S tier (ironically, this is probably close to what to what we thought early on in the 3DS days) 4 or 5 characters.

Rosa doesn't compare to Sheik right now IMO.

Also, could I just take a moment to say how many character boards believe Sonic is their worst MU? I know Ness mains think he is, I'm pretty sure DHD mains think he is and now Pac mains? I rarely hear that someone else is a character's worst MU except for sheik.

 

[bc1910]

Spoiler

Ryu doesn't move very fast in his games, in fact as far as I can recall his dashes were among the worst.
He'll probably be more defence oriented but has a unique niche in comboing with more IASA frames than any other
(dat crouching light kick to crouching medium kick to Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku). What surprised me the most is that
he used a Focus Attack from Street Fighter IV, both because I thought they'd stick mostly to the Nintendo exclusive
Street Fighter II and how it's gonna work in Smash.

I think you're right, I actually edited my post before you posted this because I changed my mind/my memory was failing me haha.

 

[Nu~]

@ MachoCheeze
Thank you for covering for me when I fell asleep. I agree wholeheartedly with your explanations
(And your polite way of roasting me )

Personally, I haven't struggled against any good foxes or ZSS lately. Fox doesn't like trampolines in the way of his approaches and he gets hit hard by orange gimping.
ZSS: Firedemon0 said it best

Strongly disagree with the Battlefield banned always assessment. I love the crap out of battlefield. I really need more time to type stuff up here. -_-

The ZSS Pac-man matchup is an even one personally. The one underneath is normally in pretty good shape and advantaged. While ZSS has an amazing nair and upair, her dair is a bit lacking imo, a whiff is dangerous. While her ability to use down-b to escape pressure is great, if knocked out of it, that is her only use of it till she gets back down. Pac-man also uses his down-B to escape pressure as well, just he does not get moved out of the way much.

The bigger matchup is each character trying to get the other in the air, where they are more potent. ZSS is very effective at killing up top because of Up-B setups. Pac-man, does most of his combos via air attacks and juggles. They each have tools to launch the other up, but it becomes a question of who does it better. ZSS has longer range on her throw, and it is stronger because of follow ups, but still very punishable. Pac-man is not really threatened by ZSS's ground game, outside of well spaced Tilts, ZSS can't really pop Pac-man up without throwing him. Pac-man, can cover his approaches with Melon and Galaxian pretty safely against ZSS to allow him to make offensive attacks. UP-B OOS is not the greatest choice to use against Pac-man unless he is blindly coming in with fairs.

Pac-man can make use of apple and orange effectively in this matchup to punish approach attempts by ZSS with a short hop apple, or punishing ending lag with orange. Down-B is a poor choice for ZSS again Pac-man with orange ready to go because it should hit if thrown OOS. Stun shot does not go through hydrant, and is canceled by everything Pac-man throws. This would be totally in Pac-man's favor on the ground if ZSS was not as fast. She is very effective at closing the distance, so zoning is not really all that effective for Pac-man.

ZSS's offense relies pretty heavily on prediction against Pac-man and he can change that up. Pac-man's requires setups and traps that ZSS should be able to safely avoid. So between the two, this matchup is definitely even. 50/50

Definitely agree with R.O.B., although we can sit in his diagonal blind spot with spaced Bair, Fair, and apples.

For me, Pikachu and Sonic are our toughest matchups because they share something that hurts us: a way to ignore our zoning. Sonic can run through hydrants and catch us when we use trampoline due to his raw speed, and quick attack just ignores everything.

Bowser, I used to struggle against, but now feel better about because we can lame him out with SH retreating Fairs and trampolines. He's combo meat too, but you need to play patiently or you will get overpowered. Dire hydrant helps us land against him with safety since it doesn't break. If you want to land with regular hydrant, use your aerial mobility to cross him up. You don't have to drop a hydrant on bowser because you have the superior mobility. You can even make your fastfall better with Dair since it increases downwards momentum.

 

[Luco]

I know you guys love to talk about trampoline forcing aerial approaches, but what about characters that have decent/good options on shield when landing, like Sheik's spaced Fair or to a lesser extent Ness' Bair?

 

[Nu~]

I know you guys love to talk about trampoline forcing aerial approaches, but what about characters that have decent/good options on shield when landing, like Sheik's spaced Fair or to a lesser extent Ness' Bair?

Kinda hard to space those correctly when you are coming down right on top of us. There is a way for us to set up a trampoline that messes with both ground approaches and SH approaches. By placing the trampoline slightly below Pac-Man's mouth, both SH approaches and ground approaches are bounced. Forcing you to come down with something directly on top of our heads

 

[Firefoxx]

I rewatched that saiya vs Abadango match and that first game is just brutal. saiya wins, but the fact that Abadango survived for ~3 minutes at 100+% on his second stock is honestly scary as hell

 

[Nu~]

I rewatched that saiya vs Abadango match and that first game is just brutal. saiya wins, but the fact that Abadango survived for ~3 minutes at 100+% on his second stock is honestly scary as hell

Most Pac-Man don't like to fight that way from the start of the match( me included)

But a lame Pac-Man is just dumb in effectiveness.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm disappointed that Saiya didn't run through the Hydrant even once. That's a pretty big game changer.