Character Competitive Impressions

[Blobface]

except in Melee infinites were flashy and cool to watch, they were all very exciting
in Brawl it was some really terrifying chain grabs, also fun to watch

in this we get pikachus shorthopping and firing a little ball while moving forward. then they use tackle. it's really boring from a spectator standpoint, and relative to the other games, requires siginificantly less effort.

Spoiler

Spoiler

(And before you say DI, would like to have a word with you about how much DI helps against Melee chaingrabs)

Spoiler

@ Gawain I really don't get why we've assigned such a connotative meaning to playing a top-tier character either. I think it might be a remnant from Brawl/Melee days when "top-tier" and "character-invalidating" were the same thing. A lot of people focus on the "abusive" aspects of top-tiers, when basically every character has "abusive" aspects*.

I main a character that has utterly ridiculous hitboxes with disjoint on every move and utterly obscene damage-per-hit. He can lose the entire match then flip it in your face with a single (educated) guess. And on top of this, he has two practical moves that can instantly kill you.

And in all seriousness, as much as we Ganon mains hate projectiles, if projectiles didn't exist Ganondorf would be by far the most "abusive" character in the game.

*Note: I'm not saying that Top-tiers couldn't use a few tweaks here and there

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Don't forget Ice Climbers:

Spoiler

...

Spoiler

...

Wario got grab-release infinited by some characters, too, hah.

 

[Man Li Gi]

except in Melee infinites were flashy and cool to watch, they were all very exciting
in Brawl it was some really terrifying chain grabs, also fun to watch
in this we get pikachus shorthopping and firing a little ball while moving forward. then they use tackle. it's really boring from a spectator standpoint, and relative to the other games, requires siginificantly less effort.

No they weren't. I don't know if you've ever played anyone one of the games bar this one competitively, but as someone who doesn't have a fail safe move like the blue hexagons or have your character be invalidated simply by grabbing, but it's not a fun experience. From what it looked like, the Peach simply didn't know what would happen and now thatperson has experience under their belt it won't happen again.

Also what's with the double standard? It's OK for something that doesn't affect you directly to be silly, but as soon as it may affect you, you get mad? C'mon.

@ Macedonian
While views are important and essential for the community to grow, I don't agree with the sentiment that the meta should be changed simply because there are more eyeballs paying attention to X. Plus, as I said, @ Ikes was using it as a crutch for his argument ie ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM, which is a fallacy. Sometimes new changes initially drive viewers away (I remember the NFL dipped in views years ago only to rebound 2 years later). It's not like this change has suddenly changed the meta for the worst (NHL banned fighting in their games, which is a core aspect of Hockey, saw a horrible turnout to games and thus allowed fighting to continue the next year).

 

[Yikarur]

The question is what is Fox supposed to do? He can't approach, camp or run away from Yoshi. He gets wrecked by Yoshi in a disadvantaged position and can't capitalize from an advantaged position nearly as much as he can against pretty much every other character. Unless Fox ouplays Yoshi in neutral [the only position where they can be argued to be on even grounds] he's not winning the matchup.

It's not like Brawl where Fox could just pressure Yoshi in neutral until he'd give in.

Fox is in advantage in neutral . while Yoshi is in advantage once Fox is in the air. Yoshi in the air is a lot of free damage for Fox because Yoshi falls so slow and does an insane amount of damage in that position. It's really about even. Most Fox players are just trying to play the MU like every other MU and get wrecked by nair. This is not how the MU is supposed to be played.

 

[Ffamran]

It was absolutely disgusting.

Love how he camped Luigi, if you pick a snail against a bat why approach?

Well, it was just uploaded and I'm watching it. For those who want to analyze it, here's the link: https://youtu.be/ONvjdFvryYQ.

Edit: Whoopsies, wrong URL.

 

[Man Li Gi]

SANIC IS NUMBER ONE GUYZ!

No, but seriously, I dont think that Sonic is top 3 or even top 5, but this was what I was talking about earlier (more concerns with ranking rather than actually analyzing as to why).

Sonic's hit and run game basically can turn anyone who doesn't have a good recovery, projectile game, or overall zone game against them as all they would have to do is gain percentage lead and then stall (honestly, I don't get why more Sonics just do that. I mean they have the means to do so. Sure it's lame, but Sonic is the only character I can think of that could actually do that). Sonic in the air though, isn't all that great in my opinion.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Well, it was just uploaded and I'm watching it. For those who want to analyze it, here's the link: https://youtu.be/55C0Dc6k7Ts.

Did you post the wrong link or is there a joke I'm missing

 

[Ffamran]

Did you post the wrong link or is there a joke I'm missing

Whoops, phone didn't copy the right URL.

It's been edited and here's winners finals of Ito vs. Zex: https://youtu.be/QgR6G-rSwIU.

 

[Ikes]

Does toon link have any specifically poor matchups?

 

[GeneralLedge]

Jigglypuff.

 

[Ikes]

Spoiler

Spoiler

(And before you say DI, would like to have a word with you about how much DI helps against Melee chaingrabs)

Spoiler

@ Gawain I really don't get why we've assigned such a connotative meaning to playing a top-tier character either. I think it might be a remnant from Brawl/Melee days when "top-tier" and "character-invalidating" were the same thing. A lot of people focus on the "abusive" aspects of top-tiers, when basically every character has "abusive" aspects*.

I main a character that has utterly ridiculous hitboxes with disjoint on every move and utterly obscene damage-per-hit. He can lose the entire match then flip it in your face with a single (educated) guess. And on top of this, he has two practical moves that can instantly kill you.

And in all seriousness, as much as we Ganon mains hate projectiles, if projectiles didn't exist Ganondorf would be by far the most "abusive" character in the game.

*Note: I'm not saying that Top-tiers couldn't use a few tweaks here and there

+
WAWE

Jigglypuff.

Seriously? how so?

 

[Man Li Gi]

PLZ
+++++
+
I'll advise you to stop digging yourself into a bigger hole on regards what is hype or cool or flashy and what isn't.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Seriously? how so?

In my experiences with the MU, her ability to approach floatily at a diagonal trumps most of TLink's options outright, save for Usmash/Utilt.

Granted my experience is probably only mid-level play with friends/onForGlory. But suspiciously, every TLink I ran into with Jiggs lost hard and rage-quit after a few matches. Maybe just the campy style of play with arrows/boomerang/bomb up near the ledge?

Haven't seen much Jigg/TLink in tournies, though. What tools could he utilize against Jigg's floaty airspeed?

 

[Macedonian]

Toon links Ftilt Utilt and upsmash all seem pretty great at covering highs approaches.

In regards to that crazy Ito finals. It seems like meta knight really hinges on starting combos with dash attack, with more reward then even the grabs. Is this a major issue with the character?

 

[Ulevo]

Toon links Ftilt Utilt and upsmash all seem pretty great at covering highs approaches.

In regards to that crazy Ito finals. It seems like meta knight really hinges on starting combos with dash attack, with more reward then even the grabs. Is this a major issue with the character?

The character requires dash attack, grab, or down tilt to start most of his standard combos. That said, it is not a big deal given forward smashes relative safety and the ability to air camp.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

In my experiences with the MU, her ability to approach floatily at a diagonal trumps most of TLink's options outright, save for Usmash/Utilt.

Granted my experience is probably only mid-level play with friends/onForGlory. But suspiciously, every TLink I ran into with Jiggs lost hard and rage-quit after a few matches. Maybe just the campy style of play with arrows/boomerang/bomb up near the ledge?

Haven't seen much Jigg/TLink in tournies, though. What tools could he utilize against Jigg's floaty airspeed?

Upward angled boomerangs don't give her trouble?

 

[deepseadiva]

Dang. MK fsmash drops into anything!!! Zero lag on that thing

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Dang. MK fsmash drops into anything!!! Zero lag on that thing

I've always said that as long as his F-Smash is as lagless as Brawl, no matter what the rest of his moveset is, pivot F-Smash would be, like, half of my moves.

 

[Unknownkid]

Does toon link have any specifically poor matchups?

Wait... you are a TLink main and you don't know your own bad matchups? Have you tried checking the TLink board for your question?

EDIT: Actually, what is wrong with TLink? Why haven't we seen more TLink players in Smash4? I have seen more Links than TLinks in tournament. Is it a general consensus that Link is better than TLink?

 

[GeneralLedge]

Upward angled boomerangs don't give her trouble?

I've always found them slow, and weaving in and out or coming in at a higher angle can offer a way around them.

Or you get behind Tlink while the boomerang is out and attack diagonally above him from behind.

I don't know the logistics behind it, I've just found Tlink remarkably easy to take care of with jiggs \/\/

 

[Unknownkid]

Double post. Sorry.

 

[Ffamran]

In regards to that crazy Ito finals. It seems like meta knight really hinges on starting combos with dash attack, with more reward then even the grabs. Is this a major issue with the character?

In a way, yes, since it gives off the impression that Meta Knight has to gamble on select options like Captain Falcon which is where the similarities pop up: Dash Attack, Uair juggles, and dash grab. Their game plans might seem similar, but Meta Knight and Captain Falcon do things the other can't like how Meta Knight can use Side Smash to bait and punish like Ganondorf with his Up Smash or how Meta Knight has access to a reliable jiggle finisher with Shuttle Loop.

The funny thing is the Meta Knight's Dash Attack isn't that fast, well, compared to Fox and Sheik's, but what it does is what makes it powerful along with how Meta Knight functions. Meta Knight is fast on the ground which makes his frame 7 Dash Attack not slow, the angle it sends people allows him to combo in aerials and how Much Tornado and Shuttle Loop works allows him to combo into them as well. There's synergy with his how one move works.

Similarly, it's also why people think Ganondorf's Dash Attack is among the best because it actually boosts him forward; Ganondorf puts all his weight into it for a monster of a tackle. You'd think a slow guy like him wouldn't be able to move that fast, but BOOM! and your face is meeting his shoulder.

In contrast, Ike's Dash Attack would in theory be a good roll, anti-air, and edgeguard move, but it's telegraphed and slow making it easy to see what he'll do. Then you have the fact it's really weak compared to his other slower moves like Nair, Fair, Dair, and is about the same strength as Dtilt.

Dang. MK fsmash drops into anything!!! Zero lag on that thing

I'm starting to wonder who else aside from Ganondorf and his Up Smash can do stuff like this. Bait with a deceptively slow move that has little end lag. Maybe Mario? I think Mr. Game & Watch can with his Up Smash and Falco might with Side Smash which would be pretty wicked since it's transcendent.

 

[Gawain]

I'm starting to wonder who else aside from Ganondorf and his Up Smash can do stuff like this. Bait with a deceptively slow move that has little end lag. Maybe Mario? I think Mr. Game & Watch can with his Up Smash and Falco might with Side Smash which would be pretty wicked since it's transcendent.

But that kind of bait will only work against people who don't know about it.

 

[meleebrawler]

In a way, yes, since it gives off the impression that Meta Knight has to gamble on select options like Captain Falcon which is where the similarities pop up: Dash Attack, Uair juggles, and dash grab. Their game plans might seem similar, but Meta Knight and Captain Falcon do things the other can't like how Meta Knight can use Side Smash to bait and punish like Ganondorf with his Up Smash or how Meta Knight has access to a reliable jiggle finisher with Shuttle Loop.

The funny thing is the Meta Knight's Dash Attack isn't that fast, well, compared to Fox and Sheik's, but what it does is what makes it powerful along with how Meta Knight functions. Meta Knight is fast on the ground which makes his frame 7 Dash Attack not slow, the angle it sends people allows him to combo in aerials and how Much Tornado and Shuttle Loop works allows him to combo into them as well. There's synergy with his how one move works.

Similarly, it's also why people think Ganondorf's Dash Attack is among the best because it actually boosts him forward; Ganondorf puts all his weight into it for a monster of a tackle. You'd think a slow guy like him wouldn't be able to move that fast, but BOOM! and your face is meeting his shoulder.

In contrast, Ike's Dash Attack would in theory be a good roll, anti-air, and edgeguard move, but it's telegraphed and slow making it easy to see what he'll do. Then you have the fact it's really weak compared to his other slower moves like Nair, Fair, Dair, and is about the same strength as Dtilt.


I'm starting to wonder who else aside from Ganondorf and his Up Smash can do stuff like this. Bait with a deceptively slow move that has little end lag. Maybe Mario? I think Mr. Game & Watch can with his Up Smash and Falco might with Side Smash which would be pretty wicked since it's transcendent.

Mewtwo Dsmash has pretty low endlag in contrast to having the most startup of all his moves.

 

[Ffamran]

But that kind of bait will only work against people who don't know about it.

People still get caught by fully charged Up Smashes from Mario, Luigi, and Mr. Game & Watch or Sonic's Side Smash despite them clearly telling you they're going to do it, but then someone decides it's a good idea to just land onto it.

 

[thehard]

But that kind of bait will only work against people who don't know about it.

That's when the Yomi gets deep

 

[Lavani]

Wait... you are a TLink main and you don't know your own bad matchups? Have you tried checking the TLink board for your question?

EDIT: Actually, what is wrong with TLink? Why haven't we seen more TLink players in Smash4? I have seen more Links than TLinks in tournament. Is it a general consensus that Link is better than TLink?

He might just want perspective, sometimes it's hard to tell if the MU is hard because of your main or your own approach to it if you don't have outside opinions to reference.

As for lack of Tink representation, I'd assume it's just lack of popularity or people favoring Link's strengths.

 

[Ikes]

PLZ
+++++
+
I'll advise you to stop digging yourself into a bigger hole on regards what is hype or cool or flashy and what isn't.

whoa hey going hard with those x presses guys, this is soooooooo hype

 

[Unknownkid]

He might just want perspective, sometimes it's hard to tell if the MU is hard because of your main or your own approach to it if you don't have outside opinions to reference.

As for lack of Tink representation, I'd assume it's just lack of popularity or people favoring Link's strengths.

Yeah, I understand that now. My apologies for my outburst. I went and checked the Tink board and only got Fox, Diddy, and Dark Pit/Pit has their disadvantage. They still have plenty of MUs that needs to be analyze. Can you guys think of more?
Hmm... Falco, Rosalina, and Greninja? Just theorycrafting here.

 

[David Viran]

In a way, yes, since it gives off the impression that Meta Knight has to gamble on select options like Captain Falcon which is where the similarities pop up: Dash Attack, Uair juggles, and dash grab. Their game plans might seem similar, but Meta Knight and Captain Falcon do things the other can't like how Meta Knight can use Side Smash to bait and punish like Ganondorf with his Up Smash or how Meta Knight has access to a reliable jiggle finisher with Shuttle Loop.

The funny thing is the Meta Knight's Dash Attack isn't that fast, well, compared to Fox and Sheik's, but what it does is what makes it powerful along with how Meta Knight functions. Meta Knight is fast on the ground which makes his frame 7 Dash Attack not slow, the angle it sends people allows him to combo in aerials and how Much Tornado and Shuttle Loop works allows him to combo into them as well. There's synergy with his how one move works.

Similarly, it's also why people think Ganondorf's Dash Attack is among the best because it actually boosts him forward; Ganondorf puts all his weight into it for a monster of a tackle. You'd think a slow guy like him wouldn't be able to move that fast, but BOOM! and your face is meeting his shoulder.

In contrast, Ike's Dash Attack would in theory be a good roll, anti-air, and edgeguard move, but it's telegraphed and slow making it easy to see what he'll do. Then you have the fact it's really weak compared to his other slower moves like Nair, Fair, Dair, and is about the same strength as Dtilt.


I'm starting to wonder who else aside from Ganondorf and his Up Smash can do stuff like this. Bait with a deceptively slow move that has little end lag. Maybe Mario? I think Mr. Game & Watch can with his Up Smash and Falco might with Side Smash which would be pretty wicked since it's transcendent.

Zss dsmash.

 

[Ikes]

Wait... you are a TLink main and you don't know your own bad matchups? Have you tried checking the TLink board for your question?

EDIT: Actually, what is wrong with TLink? Why haven't we seen more TLink players in Smash4? I have seen more Links than TLinks in tournament. Is it a general consensus that Link is better than TLink?

I mainly dont know some of my matchups cause I dont get the chance to play against a lot of the cast, simply because they're underplayed

I know most of them, but ones i dont quite know are those like Jiggly, Bowser, or MK, low/mid tiers that tend to be overlooked

 

[Man Li Gi]

In a way, yes, since it gives off the impression that Meta Knight has to gamble on select options like Captain Falcon which is where the similarities pop up: Dash Attack, Uair juggles, and dash grab. Their game plans might seem similar, but Meta Knight and Captain Falcon do things the other can't like how Meta Knight can use Side Smash to bait and punish like Ganondorf with his Up Smash or how Meta Knight has access to a reliable jiggle finisher with Shuttle Loop.

The funny thing is the Meta Knight's Dash Attack isn't that fast, well, compared to Fox and Sheik's, but what it does is what makes it powerful along with how Meta Knight functions. Meta Knight is fast on the ground which makes his frame 7 Dash Attack not slow, the angle it sends people allows him to combo in aerials and how Much Tornado and Shuttle Loop works allows him to combo into them as well. There's synergy with his how one move works.

Similarly, it's also why people think Ganondorf's Dash Attack is among the best because it actually boosts him forward; Ganondorf puts all his weight into it for a monster of a tackle. You'd think a slow guy like him wouldn't be able to move that fast, but BOOM! and your face is meeting his shoulder.

In contrast, Ike's Dash Attack would in theory be a good roll, anti-air, and edgeguard move, but it's telegraphed and slow making it easy to see what he'll do. Then you have the fact it's really weak compared to his other slower moves like Nair, Fair, Dair, and is about the same strength as Dtilt.


I'm starting to wonder who else aside from Ganondorf and his Up Smash can do stuff like this. Bait with a deceptively slow move that has little end lag. Maybe Mario? I think Mr. Game & Watch can with his Up Smash and Falco might with Side Smash which would be pretty wicked since it's transcendent.

Ganon's DA sent him farther faster and more powerfully (both in % and knockback in Brawl). I'd say it's worse in this game, but nonetheless a tool Ganon's may use (especially weak DA as it can "combo" into jab)

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah, I understand that now. My apologies for my outburst. I went and checked the Tink board and only got Fox, Diddy, and Dark Pit/Pit has their disadvantage. They still have plenty of MUs that needs to be analyze. Can you guys think of more?
Hmm... Falco, Rosalina, and Greninja? Just theorycrafting here.

Falco either loses or goes even with Toon Link and that goes the same for Link. Disjoints are the enemy of Falco along with mobility - his and his opponent's - and good jugglers. Toon Link is mobile, has a good, natural disjoint, and he's small. This means Toon Link easily hits Falco while Falco has issues hitting him. Projectiles can come at any angle and quickly too which screws over Falco's anti-zone game since Reflector is a commitment and Falco has a poor projectile to counter back. There's a Falco who requested a MU discussion on this because he struggles against a Toon Link in his region.

Link despite being a larger target to hit and in theory would be easy to hit ends up being difficult to hit when he outranges Falco and severely punishes him for every mistake. The annoying extra disjoints on jab and Dair don't help. Nair's hitbox and Link's significant fast fall speed increase bops back Falco like a fool. Falco has to play perfectly in this and practically every MU while Toon Link and especially Link can make mistakes and suffer less.

 

[Blobface]

Ganon's DA sent him farther faster and more powerfully (both in % and knockback in Brawl). I'd say it's worse in this game, but nonetheless a tool Ganon's may use (especially weak DA as it can "combo" into jab)

Ganon's Brawl DA was considered one of his best moves even then, but it was overshadowed by hitstun mechanics making it poor for approaching (I think). As far as I know his Dash attack is only weaker in % and knockback. And to be honest, a Dash Attack that kills at 107% with no rage would be ultra OP with full rage.

It's good in this game for the same reason Ganon went from Trash tier to... well, all-over-the-place tier; massive "buffs" from system changes and changes to other characters.

 

[Ulevo]

 

[Unknownkid]

Falco either loses or goes even with Toon Link and that goes the same for Link. Disjoints are the enemy of Falco along with mobility - his and his opponent's - and good jugglers. Toon Link is mobile, has a good, natural disjoint, and he's small. This means Toon Link easily hits Falco while Falco has issues hitting him. Projectiles can come at any angle and quickly too which screws over Falco's anti-zone game since Reflector is a commitment and Falco has a poor projectile to counter back. There's a Falco who requested a MU discussion on this because he struggles against a Toon Link in his region.

Link despite being a larger target to hit and in theory would be easy to hit ends up being difficult to hit when he outranges Falco and severely punishes him for every mistake. The annoying extra disjoints on jab and Dair don't help. Nair's hitbox and Link's significant fast fall speed increase bops back Falco like a fool. Falco has to play perfectly in this and practically every MU while Toon Link and especially Link can make mistakes and suffer less.

Thanks for the clarification. I was staring at their MU and I thought I found something in common. For Kirby, this is one of our harder matchup (both Tink and Link). A character with a Wall of Projectiles and Disjoints attack is never fun for the pink puff. Although, MikeKirby does make it look easy. I figure out Falco doesn't have to commit/approach as much and can play more defensively/reactively. Swordfighter, on the other hand, might have an easier time. Gale Strike beats everything except for Full Charged Arrows and Bombs. Powerful Strike Up B can kill their recovery and some of our normal moves out range theirs attacks.

 

[Macedonian]

One of my favorites I've seen so far. Except for GandW and kirby being so low I like this

 

[Nu~]

Again, people don't realize how good pacman's customs are. And, "borderline"? There is no matchup in top or high tier that hurts pacman so much that he would need a secondary.
Olimar on the other hand gets rekt by shiek...
DHD is way too high without customs (bad neutral and no reliable kill setups)
and bowser over Ike?
Strange. I may agree with this list over the previous ones this week but this still looks very strange to me.

 

[Unknownkid]

Again, people don't realize how good pacman's customs are.

Pretty much. Until your character can bring some results, he/she will be sleep on. Do you have any video on Custom Pacman tournament gameplay? I want to see the 3 frames (is it 3 frames?) Meteor Trampoline in action.

 

[Ulevo]

Again, people don't realize how good pacman's customs are. And, "borderline"? There is no matchup in top or high tier that hurts pacman so much that he would need a secondary.
Olimar on the other hand gets rekt by shiek...
DHD is way too high without customs (bad neutral and no reliable kill setups)
and bowser over Ike?
Strange. I may agree with this list over the previous ones this week but this still looks very strange to me.

I still believe Fox is overrated, results aside. I have no issues with the top row in A-Tier, but I feel Pikachu belongs there. Meta Knight definitely belongs in B Tier, minimum. I feel Lucario, Doc and Kirby should also be in borderline. I do not really feel Bowser is Borderline, and should be lower. G&W, Palutena, should be higher for sure. Donkey Kong should be higher. Samus should definitely be in bottom as well.