Character Competitive Impressions

[AvariceX]

Can people go easy on the girl jokes with Marth now? He got nerfed you know. Or did he body everyone THAT badly in the past that the wounds will never heal? Or perhaps you are pissed that he's prettier than any woman you will ever date IRL? So many plausible explanations.

I mained Ness in Brawl for three years.
/explanation

Also I forgot my explanation for the big question mark over Palutena. Her default specials (except ub+B) are generally garbage but they all have specific situations they excel in, but her normals seem pretty good overall. Jab is decent outside of a small hitbox, her tilts all have absurd active frames, f-air is a great poke but lacking in power, and b-air is the opposite. Her uair seems good and her dair is a pretty easy to land spike. Her smashes are averageish I guess. The wings only having pushback is annoying but it's better than them doing nothing at all, at least it makes her a little tougher to punish. If you catch a roll with a dsmash it can be a stock even at low percents because the knockback is crazy, has a low trajectory, and she has a reliable spike and projectile to edgeguard below the stage with. All that said though she has serious flaws and I don't know which side has more weight.

 

[Thinkaman]

I mained Ness in Brawl for three years.
/explanation

You get a free pass to say whatever you want about Marth forever.

Also I forgot my explanation for the big question mark over Palutena. Her default specials (except ub+B) are generally garbage but they all have specific situations they excel in, but her normals seem pretty good overall.

I had the exact opposite opinion.

Her default specials are matchup-specific, but very robust. She has arguably the best counter in the game, and arguably the best reflector in the game. Auto-reticule is weak but disrupts the neutral, which her dismal normal moveset is poor at.

Her nair has a good hitbox, her bair is solid, and her fair has very low lag... and she has a workable jab and decent throws... but that's about all the good I can say about her normals.

 

[mimgrim]

Her nair has a good hitbox, her bair is solid, and her fair has very low lag... and she has a workable jab and decent throws... but that's about all the good I can say about her normals.

Dthrow is far better then decent. It leads into so many different things.

 

[Thinkaman]

Dthrow is far better then decent. It leads into so many different things.

Yeah, her d-throw is clearly the winner. My opinion of Palutena shifted significantly when I learned the d-throw links to bair when done perfectly. That's a really solid grab reward.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ampharos and myself have been methodically going through the cast and looking are various custom move sets, so we're zeroing in on a pretty good idea of how things will work out.

I expect the majority of players/characters to use the same moveset in all matchups.

A small percentage of characters will use 2 or perhaps 3 sets. It is usually just one specific move that is worth changing, rarely two. WFT and Palutena will have likely have several sets. (Miis probably won't; most of their options have clear winners for 1v1)

I currently expect all characters to always take the same specials on a matchup basis. I've been vigilantly on the lookout for cases where your choice depends on what the specials the other character took. While I can hardly say I've considered all 1200+ matchups, I haven't found any yet. I do think it is reasonable to exist though, and think the following 4 cases are possibilities:

• Palutena, Falco, and possibly others vary their reflector options based on matchup. If a character exists who has a preferred projectile, but a version that is significantly better against reflectors and only slightly less preferred otherwise, they might counter-pick specials. I am unsure any character has a projectile choice truly like this though. Maybe Samus and Lucario neutral-b? Maybe DHD can?
• DHD has the option to take a worse gunman who is a better anti-projectile shield. It is possible that some characters might take a different projectile option based on which gunman DHD is using. But again, I haven't identified such a case yet.
• Villager has Wobbuffet Tree, which completely changes a lot of his matchups. It currently looks like Villager would take it in every matchup, because it's so good. But, if for some reason he doesn't, this might change the response of many characters who rely on specials to beat it.
• If Rosalina Luma Warp proves viable, this might change the way she is played enough such that some characters may prefer different specials. That's a lot of ifs though.

Out of curiosity then: what do you consider to be Ike's main set up? As mentioned by San, on the Ike boards we certainly don't have an "official best setup" over their. Aether 3 and Counter 3 are pretty garbage (though Counter 3 would be an amusing option against a character with serious lag after their moves), but all of the other options have their places.

With Eruption you can either go for a smaller, weaker one that is also much more usable off stage, helps your recovery a little bit and has a wind box, or go for the one with a absolutely monster of a hitbox and edgeguard without ever leaving the stage.

With Quickdraw, you can either go for the one that never swings and just blasts through everything but will be the least likely to let you act again afterwards, the one with super armour during everything that isn't the swing but has crap range, or go for the one with no special features but is in theory the one most likely that is going to have Ike swing and thus be able to act again.

With Counter, you either go for decent knockback and damage, or go for no real damage/knockback, but sets up for other stuff.

With Aether, do you want to be able to use it from farther out for both recovery and attacking platforms, or do you want to be able to attack platforms right above you and recover more from directly below the stage? Both work for different combos as well.

 

[AvariceX]

I completely forgot about throws and nair in my post. I'm usually posting from work so my thoughts get fragmented between tasks, sorry about that. Her throw game is definitely very good, but how's her grab game (range, pivot grab, roll cancel grab); I honestly don't know, haven't played her enough. She's probably going to be one of my secondaries though, I've enjoyed her a lot from what I played. After the hardships of Brawl Ness though I'm making sure I main a top tier this time around (good thing I really enjoy Diddy, Greninja, and ZSS).

 

[Thinkaman]

Out of curiosity then: what do you consider to be Ike's main set up? As mentioned by San, on the Ike boards we certainly don't have an "official best setup" over their. Aether 3 and Counter 3 are pretty garbage (though Counter 3 would be an amusing option against a character with serious lag after their moves), but all of the other options have their places.

With Eruption you can either go for a smaller, weaker one that is also much more usable off stage, helps your recovery a little bit and has a wind box, or go for the one with a absolutely monster of a hitbox and edgeguard without ever leaving the stage.

With Quickdraw, you can either go for the one that never swings and just blasts through everything but will be the least likely to let you act again afterwards, the one with super armour during everything that isn't the swing but has crap range, or go for the one with no special features but is in theory the one most likely that is going to have Ike swing and thus be able to act again.

With Counter, you either go for decent knockback and damage, or go for no real damage/knockback, but sets up for other stuff.

With Aether, do you want to be able to use it from farther out for both recovery and attacking platforms, or do you want to be able to attack platforms right above you and recover more from directly below the stage? Both work for different combos as well.

I think Ike is one of the ones who will vary by matchup. I think Eruption 2 and 3 will prove dominant (mostly 2, probably), Quick Draw 2, Aether 2, and Counter 1 and 3. I'm unconvinced that Eruption 1 or Quick Draw 3 will ultimately prove the best option for any/many matchups, but it's possible.

san? Thoughts?

 

[PKNintendo]

Well...say hi to every competitive game ever. Even then, it's pretty blatantly obvious that some really good decisions were made in terms of balancing the game. Much MUCH better than in previous games besides arguably 64.

Yeah, there's no doubt that the overall character balance will be patently better than Melee/Brawl. That doesn't mean the character balance will be particularly good. Characters like Rosalina, Sheik and Little Mac will invalidate a ton of characters.

I also certainly don't buy the "customs solve all problems" mindset. Low tiers are still going to struggle, with or without them.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

Vanilla Pit is pretty good. He has FANTASTIC normals, he has great mobility and recovery, and his B Moves are decent. His main problem is killing. If you ask me, I'd say he's sitting comfortably at low-high or high-mid.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mained Ness in Brawl for three years.
/explanation

Also I forgot my explanation for the big question mark over Palutena. Her default specials (except ub+B) are generally garbage but they all have specific situations they excel in, but her normals seem pretty good overall. Jab is decent outside of a small hitbox, her tilts all have absurd active frames, f-air is a great poke but lacking in power, and b-air is the opposite. Her uair seems good and her dair is a pretty easy to land spike. Her smashes are averageish I guess. The wings only having pushback is annoying but it's better than them doing nothing at all, at least it makes her a little tougher to punish. If you catch a roll with a dsmash it can be a stock even at low percents because the knockback is crazy, has a low trajectory, and she has a reliable spike and projectile to edgeguard below the stage with. All that said though she has serious flaws and I don't know which side has more weight.

That had little to do with Marth and ALOT to do with very very ****ty programming and lack of serious testing.

 

[Thinkaman]

I also certainly don't buy the "customs solve all problems" mindset. Low tiers are still going to struggle, with or without them.

Custom moves are by no means a panacea that will magically auto-balance the game, but in both theory and practice the options tend to help weak characters more than strong ones.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Yeah, there's no doubt that the overall character balance will be patently better than Melee/Brawl. That doesn't mean the character balance will be particularly good. Characters like Rosalina, Sheik and Little Mac will invalidate a ton of characters.

I also certainly don't buy the "customs solve all problems" mindset. Low tiers are still going to struggle, with or without them.

Rosalina seems freaking ridiculous if you don't have a piercing projectile. Fortunately, many characters get exactly that as custom moves! (And believe me, a piercing projectile really does help. Being able to stuff Luma Shot and damage Rosalina simultaneously without relying on a reflector is very, VERY helpful.)

 

[AvariceX]

Custom moves are by no means a panacea that will magically auto-balance the game, but in both theory and practice the options tend to help weak characters more than strong ones.

I agree with this. Above all else what makes a character good in a fighting game is having more good options relative to the rest of the cast (there are exceptions where they have a single or a couple absolutely ridiculous dominant options and bypass the need for more - see Vergil Spiral Swords in UMvC3). Weak characters tend to have fewer viable options. You give them the opportunity to replace some of those options and they are more likely to find more viable options. Strong characters already have viable options in those slots for the most part, so even with the custom moves they are less likely to find more additional options than the weaker characters will.

 

[Thinkaman]

Rosalina seems freaking ridiculous if you don't have a piercing projectile. Fortunately, many characters get exactly that as custom moves! (And believe me, a piercing projectile really does help. Being able to stuff Luma Shot and damage Rosalina simultaneously without relying on a reflector is very, VERY helpful.)

There are other Rosalina-matchup-specific advantages too.

For example, WFT has a lower damage piercing projectile, but also a stronger, smaller projectile. She can actually consider using the latter against Rosalina, and either SH to shoot it above Luma, or just blast it into Luma blind, taking away half of its health and probably knocking it offstage in one shot. Link Power Bow is similar.

Charizard and Ganon have their multi-hit side-bs, which they might take in other matchups as well, but enable them to effectively charge Rosalina and Luma. WFT up-b 2 is similar, it shreds Luma.

Luigi fireballs 2 aren't piercing but can be used to go above/around Luma. Samus slow charge shot and missiles are similar.

Dashing counters are more useful against Rosalina imo, like other projectile-heavy matchups.

Both Falco reflector upgrades are probably better for harassing Rosalina.

Ganon down-b 2 needs no additional incentive, but is great in this matchup. Probably more important here than in any other matchup.

Ike side-b 2 is a good, disruptive approach mix-up, like a piercing projectile.

Robin might actually consider quick thunder in this matchup. (Not sure.)

Sheik might consider piercing needles sure, but also might opt for down-b 3.

Zelda gets superior Phantom options and Din's Flare, both disproportionately good for dealing with Luma zoning stuff.

DHD can 2 and 3 are both decidedly improvements in this matchup.



Bottom line is, Rosalina has unique defensive advantages. This is diminished in the face of wider offensive options.

 

[PKNintendo]

I'll concede that certain (frankly ridiculous customs like Thoron+ or Dashing Assault) can make a difference. But still... my gut
says that it won't be that easy.

That things won't turn out well. I just can't shake this intense pessimism.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I find myself using piercing projectiles (especially the Mii Swordfighter's Chakram) against Rosalina most often when she thinks she has stage control and goes for Luma Shot. Stops the shot even after it comes out and deals damage and flinching to Rosalina, breaking her defensive wall.

Dense Charge Shot and Relentless Missiles let Samus wall with significant effectiveness to help offset Rosalina's ridiculous walling ability with Luma. It makes Rosalina have to be careful around Samus just like Samus has to be careful around Rosalina.

Speaking of Rosalina in general though, how the heck do I get past default Rosalina with default Pit? FAir is out-ranged by her BAir and has less vertical reach than her FAir, her FAir out-ranges my NAir and of course has a disjoint just to be even more obnoxious. She's light and floaty enough that she escapes my jab combo automatically if her percent is too high, same with my FSmash. Pit's DAir is out-ranged by her UAir, UTilt, and USmash, while his UAir and UTilt are out-ranged by her DAir. Her FSmash out-ranges Pit's FTilt and the first hit of his FSmash with its stupid disjoint. And that's not counting Luma, who makes everything I do unsafe on hit (whether I target Luma or Rosalina) and what little spacing advantage I would otherwise have practically nonexistent.

I'll concede that certain (frankly ridiculous customs like Thoron+ or Dashing Assault) can make a difference. But still... my gut says that it won't be that easy.

That things won't turn out well. I just can't shake this intense pessimism.

To me, it feels like playing without customs will be less balanced than playing with them, especially once Rosalina and Luma get involved since they seem to be able to shut down so many characters completely when custom moves aren't available.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, there's no doubt that the overall character balance will be patently better than Melee/Brawl. That doesn't mean the character balance will be particularly good. Characters like Rosalina, Sheik and Little Mac will invalidate a ton of characters.

I also certainly don't buy the "customs solve all problems" mindset. Low tiers are still going to struggle, with or without them.

I'm gonna be optimistic about customs because customs give me a legitimate reason to play Mario over Sheik. Seriously.

That 3 frame Up-B that does 21% and kills at like 105%. Not to mention Gust Cape stalling and gimps.

I'm SLIGHTLY concerned that Toon Link has customs that could be banned for understage stalling purposes. I mean...check NinjaLink's Toon Link Customs video and all the jokes about Toon Link being Peter Pan. Like, you get a stock lead, and then you go under the stage and stay airborne like forever with Up-B and stage teching Bomb explosions.

 

[epicgordan]

So, it appears that the tier lists may be faced by a combination of factors; how well each character can counter members of the big four (with or without custom moves), and how they fare against everyone else. Safe to say that for the time being, Sheik, Rosalina, Greninja, and Zero Suit Samus are going to be the gold standard in the competitive scenes, and everyone else will simply be able to counter one or two members of the big four, dominate everyone else ranked below them, or variations of the two. Low and bottom tier, if anything, seems to consist of the characters whose custom moves can do little to nothing to help level the playing field against the top and high tier candidates. In a sense, I just can't see a situation where Olimar can do anything to stop the big four, and the candidates that are likely to make up high tier (or drop down to mid tier in a worst-case scenario) won't be able to do much against either.

Of course, once we see enough of what these characters are made of, then we can safely start to reshape the tier list better.

 

[Remzi]

Ampharos and myself have been methodically going through the cast and looking are various custom move sets, so we're zeroing in on a pretty good idea of how things will work out.

I expect the majority of players/characters to use the same moveset in all matchups.

A small percentage of characters will use 2 or perhaps 3 sets. It is usually just one specific move that is worth changing, rarely two. WFT and Palutena will have likely have several sets. (Miis probably won't; most of their options have clear winners for 1v1)

I currently expect all characters to always take the same specials on a matchup basis. I've been vigilantly on the lookout for cases where your choice depends on what the specials the other character took. While I can hardly say I've considered all 1200+ matchups, I haven't found any yet. I do think it is reasonable to exist though, and think the following 4 cases are possibilities:

• Palutena, Falco, and possibly others vary their reflector options based on matchup. If a character exists who has a preferred projectile, but a version that is significantly better against reflectors and only slightly less preferred otherwise, they might counter-pick specials. I am unsure any character has a projectile choice truly like this though. Maybe Samus and Lucario neutral-b? Maybe DHD can?
• DHD has the option to take a worse gunman who is a better anti-projectile shield. It is possible that some characters might take a different projectile option based on which gunman DHD is using. But again, I haven't identified such a case yet.
• Villager has Wobbuffet Tree, which completely changes a lot of his matchups. It currently looks like Villager would take it in every matchup, because it's so good. But, if for some reason he doesn't, this might change the response of many characters who rely on specials to beat it.
• If Rosalina Luma Warp proves viable, this might change the way she is played enough such that some characters may prefer different specials. That's a lot of ifs though.

I'm a fan of your posts Thinkaman, but I think you are giving a gross oversimplification of the effects of custom moves on counterpicking. Especially when you say that moveset counter-picking won't be a thing. Even if we can't find an example of a certain move being a strong counter to another custom move in particular (although I really doubt that there aren't examples of this to be found), whats far more important is that custom moves can alter a character's playstyle as a whole. And other moves can counter those playstyles. It remains to be seen how custom moves can counter other custom sets, because we have yet to see how drastically a custom moveset can shift a character's playstyle.

Let's take Robin for example. Robin is a character that won't typically be approaching a grounded character from the air. He takes to the air to follow up, to punish whiffs, punish air dodges, to juggle, or to meet another character in the air and outspace them with one of his big sweeping hitboxes. Now, we throw his custom side-B, fire wall (is that the name?) into the mix. Suddenly, Robin is constantly hopping in the air, throwing down firewalls at you. This gives him a reason to be in the air far more often. So with that said, another character might suddenly benefit a lot more from having a special that gives him better anti-air capabilities to shut down Robin's adjusted playstyle.

This is just a simple, not completely concrete example, but if I understand the statement you are making, I think its far too early to be making a sweeping generalization like that.

 

[Thinkaman]

This is just a simple, not completely concrete example, but if I understand the statement you are making, I think its far too early to be making a sweeping generalization like that.

Right, I tried to provide disclaimers. My intended message was "I've been looking, and haven't found anything yet, but these situations can reasonably exist." I like your Fire Wall example.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think customs are definitely more beneficial to the lower tiers, especially in the case of Ganon. Down-B 2 isn't magically gonna make him great but god damn it covers a lot of the flaws he had before really solidly.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I assume there has to be a point of disclosure so people aren't in the lobby trying to constantly counter-pick customs between whatever 3 characters they may feel proficient at

So, it appears that the tier lists may be faced by a combination of factors; how well each character can counter members of the big four (with or without custom moves), and how they fare against everyone else. Safe to say that for the time being, Sheik, Rosalina, Greninja, and Zero Suit Samus are going to be the gold standard in the competitive scenes, and everyone else will simply be able to counter one or two members of the big four, dominate everyone else ranked below them, or variations of the two. Low and bottom tier, if anything, seems to consist of the characters whose custom moves can do little to nothing to help level the playing field against the top and high tier candidates. In a sense, I just can't see a situation where Olimar can do anything to stop the big four, and the candidates that are likely to make up high tier (or drop down to mid tier in a worst-case scenario) won't be able to do much against either.

Of course, once we see enough of what these characters are made of, then we can safely start to reshape the tier list better.

The only constants seem to waver between Sheik and Rosalina on most peoples impressions and lists.

Im fairly certain Fox can go toe-to-toe with Sheik.

 

[Thinkaman]

I assume there has to be a point of disclosure so people aren't in the lobby trying to constantly counter-pick customs between whatever 3 characters they may feel proficient at

We'll have customs be counter-picked just like characters, in the same order, after characters. This is the sort of obvious solution for local coop play.

 

[RWB]

What are your opinion on Diddy, Penguin? He's done very well in the tournaments so far.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I think he's strong, and he has already begun a track record in support of it, but im waiting for more personal experience with/against him. When I see him he dominates, when I face him he's forgettable, I want to pick-him up but he's on the backlog of what I'm attempting. I think all the top characters will have some kind of projectile game which speaks for him, I'd put him in a top 10 and give him more precedent over Yoshi if it were up to me.

I think players are going to feel a little less about Yoshi as time goes on, Bowser as well.

 

[Jahordon]

I think he's strong, and he has already begun a track record in support of it, but im waiting for more personal experience with/against him. When I see him he dominates, when I face him he's forgettable, I want to pick-him up but he's on the backlog of what I'm attempting. I think all the top characters will have some kind of projectile game which speaks for him, I'd put him in a top 10 and give him more precedent over Yoshi if it were up to me.

I think players are going to feel a little less about Yoshi as time goes on, Bowser as well.

I played Yoshi for a bit, but I think he has a bit of Game and Watch syndrom from Brawl: he's going to fall off really soon.

I started playing Greninja instead, and thought he was great. Then I started having trouble getting kills with him, so I thought maybe he wasn't s good as I originally believed. But after reading around, it sounds like everybody has trouble killing, so I'm not sure what to think of Greninja. I love how he feels, but I feel his approach is severely lacking.

I just recently started playing with Diddy, and I have no idea what to think of him. I really enjoy him, and he can REALLY go off when he gets an opening. I hate that his jab is weak, but I hear his tilt game is great. Again, I struggle to kill with him (noticing a pattern?), because people seem to be able to jump out of his d-throw > u-air combo at high percents. I can't decide how I feel about his banana game. They work great some games, but other games I don't even get a chance to pull one, and if I do, it's negated quickly. Characters like Shiek that run right up in my face give me a lot of trouble. His recovery seems easily gimped, too.

A lot of people here are saying Diddy is the sleeper best character in the game, but I don't know if I can make that claim. I don't think he can compete with Greninja, Shiek, and ZSS without his bananas, and it's really hard to get a banana game started vs characters as fast as these. Maybe I'm just bad at Diddy, though.

 

[FierceFox]

From my experience the best characters seem to be King Dedede, Sonic, and Sheik.

 

[Luco]

@ Emblem Lord : I co-mained Lucas and Ness in Brawl. Also even without CGs, marth outranged us in so many ways it wasn't funny. *proceeds to laugh maniacally*

Sonic I feel will drop a little over time if his meta begins to stale at all. I get the feeling if people can navigate through his early control and punish him for certain playstyle choices then his game will be somewhat more restrictive and will slightly drop him in terms of placement. That said, I still think he'll remain reasonably well off.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Y'all are seriously sleeping on Wii Fit Trainer.. smh

Her customs are pretty amazing and legit (volatile breathing hitbox is craaazy) and her normals are pretty darn good too. She honestly has a lot going for her..

*that advantage of having the least amount of landing lag after an air dodge (12 frames) is kinda sorta crazy.

 

[MushroomKiller]

I played Yoshi for a bit, but I think he has a bit of Game and Watch syndrom from Brawl: he's going to fall off really soon.

Remember: just because YOU'RE bad with a character... Doesn't mean the character is. I mean, playing "for a bit" doesn't really do any character justice, don't you think?

Before you get all defensive, though, I do agree with you to a certain extent. Yoshi, I think, definitely isn't Top 5 material (and if he does turn out to be in the end, I'll eat my shoes. I'll be happy, but I'll still eat my shoes). He has good options against Shiek on stage, but he gets way too easily edgeguarded by her. ZSS, with her superior air mobility and aerial KOs, can easily give Yoshi a lot of trouble, and I think the match-up will be even at best. Haven't seen nor played any serious YoshivsGreninja matches, so can't comment on that. I think Yoshi's best bet with the popular Top 4 at the moment is Rosaluma, since he has effective ways of stopping Luma (Egg Toss, Dash Attack are two of a few other options) and can zero in on Rosalina pretty easily.

So one disadvantageous, one likely disadvantageous, one unknown and one (slightly) advantageous. Yeah, he's a bit overhyped, but I where I disagree with you is that part about "Game and Watch" syndrome. I don't think Yoshi's fall will be quite that drastic - He has tons of options that really lend well to his versatility and unpredictability, which as a result always keep opponents on their toes. I don't see him having much trouble against any other characters, and for that reason I think Yoshi will probably remain in the upper echelons of the tiers - Hovering around 8th to 12th spot, maybe.

 

[WieldyMinotaur]

Played Robin. To he me he seems to have good B-specials and Up-B is fun to use against enemies who try to attack you from below. To me Robins aerials does seem good too but I have no experience on aerial gameplay so I aint sure.

 

[ConeZ]

I honestly think Falcon is pretty damn good. He's got problems with a few characters, but he has some nice setups and juggles, and I have personally had a lot of fun with him.

Of the others I have noticed, there are Rosaluma, Greninja, Shiek, ZSS, Sanic, Yoshi, Duckhunt, and surprisingly Link... and Jigglypuff, Pikachu, and Lucario.... and Lucina (Haven't seen much Marth).. Oh, and Olimar has been surprisingly irritating.
Lots of strong dudes.

Outside of that group, I'd be surprised if anyone else was high to top tier... with the exception of MAYBE Peach and Toon Link, since they have the whole Toss Cancel tech now, but I still don't get much trouble from them.

Though I suppose I could always be wrong, which would be cool. I am interested in seeing the meta develop xD

 

[Yonder]

Y'all are seriously sleeping on Wii Fit Trainer.. smh

Her customs are pretty amazing and legit (volatile breathing hitbox is craaazy) and her normals are pretty darn good too. She honestly has a lot going for her..

*that advantage of having the least amount of landing lag after an air dodge (12 frames) is kinda sorta crazy.

I actually think Wii Fit Trainer could be among the very worst in the game. Very awkward hitboxes [Up smash doesn't even hit opponents right next to her], cannot kill unless she has breathing done [which is a pain to pull off during a 1v1 match], her recovery is very mediocre [a mix of horizontal and vertical, both short], sun salutation is pretty great, but soccer ball is not very accurate...there's just nothing there's outstanding about WFT to me. I think she's pretty bad next to Olimar and Charizard for me.

 

[Ganreizu]

Very awkward hitboxes [Up smash doesn't even hit opponents right next to her]

DACUS should remedy some of the difficulty of hitting it in it's intended situation. What's wrong with usmash not hitting next to her?

cannot kill unless she has breathing done [which is a pain to pull off during a 1v1 match]

You can use her 12 frame landing lag airdodge/shield out of deep breathing though.

her recovery is very mediocre [a mix of horizontal and vertical, both short]

Eh, it's not terrible. Horizontal hoola hoops is a disgustingly good harassment tool, since she wraps herself in weird ass hitboxes.

sun salutation is pretty great, but soccer ball is not very accurate

SS and customs is amazing. Soccer ball can be controlled by timing though so a good wft would be able to use it in many ways, and the customs are all good as well.

there's just nothing there's outstanding about WFT to me. I think she's pretty bad next to Olimar and Charizard for me.

She has 3 spikes (beach ball, dair, fair), and her custom options are all great. She can put on a ton of pressure compared to a lot of the cast with up-B and SS. The biggest problem is really just that she's awkward, but that can be fixed.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Oh look your snarky *** is back.

You know you love me!

 

[epicgordan]

Concerning Wii Fit Trainer, I think even with the wide array of options in custom moves, she will be closer to the bottom half of the tier list. If anything, the characters is designed specifically for 4-player matches and thus would thrive there instead. Remember that tier lists don't mean a whole lot outside of 1 vs 1 (see Zamus/Lucas pairings in Brawl). This can clearly be explained by her unusual hitboxes in her standard attacks covering multiple directions. However, the wide variety of options available to her via custom moves would more than likely keep her from being low or bottom tier, but I think she will flourish almost exclusively as a counterpick, and even then, I reckon it'd be easy to guess what to expect from her if, say, she has a really weird setup specifically to counter, say, a Sheik user.

This pretty much means that WFT would best be reserved to settle a tie breaker in a tournament match. Because of this, I am expecting her to be mid-low tier--best-case scenario would likely be somewhere in mid tier unless something unexpected is discovered that renders her utterly remarkable.

 

[DanGR]

Alright, so regarding Luma blocking projectiles for Rosalina, it's not as cut and dry as is being implied in this thread, time and time again. There's a very deep meta underneath it all, and I'm excited to see how it develops as our players progress in each matchup. Unfortunately, if Brawl was any indicator of how quickly players not using Rosalina will progress, I fear Rosalina's Luma-meta for the Rosalina player will develop significantly faster than the counter-play attached to it... but that's another topic altogether.

When it comes to RosaLuma vs projectiles, there are a lot of variables that comes into play during each interaction and who comes out on top. It's a very sweeping over-generalization to say "Luma blocks projectiles, making them useless." Yes, Luma is an incredibly useful tool to deal with projectiles, but it's by no stretch a zero-sum game.

A more accurate representation of Luma vs projectiles looks more like the following:

Luma acts similarly to Olimar's pikmin (at least in brawl) in that she has her own priority while being attached to the character. Luma has her own hitbox, her own hurtboxes, her own HP, which drops over time when she's hit throughout the match, etc. And without Luma, Rosalina is considerably weaker. Her zone of threat without the inclusion of Luma's additional hitboxes are both awkward for the player and abusable by the opponent.

Luma can't shield, or airdodge, or roll despite the cute stance she takes when Rosalina shields. :3 She takes damage, and will die after 52 total damage. Blocked projectiles lower Luma's health, and have an indirect impact on the game. The aforementioned impact being when Luma is inevitably killed. Afterwards, Rosalina is quite vulnerable for 8 seconds.
Even though blocked, many projectiles will desynch her from Rosalina, leading to a small time frame during which Rosalina is more vulnerable.

Luma blocks projectiles often times, but she's also got a small hurtbox. Often times projectiles will fly by her and have the chance to hit Rosalina's larger frame. Potentially, this forces the player to either account for that chance to hit her by shielding/airdodging/etc anyways. However, with time Rosalina players will learn to more precisely shield projectiles using Luma or avoid the projectile altogether so that Luma isn't hurt. It's a skill in itself to increase the block/dodge rate to 100% through w/e means- whether that's by jumping as a projectile is launched, spacing correctly so that the projectile and Luma line up, using neutral B, etc. This projectile blocking micro-meta is something both players have access to. It's not going to be completely one-sided. Every time Rosalina is forced to account for something, her overall option count is decreased. Patterns and other windows of opportunity, as tight a punish window they might have, will be exploitable.

 

[AvariceX]

I actually think Wii Fit Trainer could be among the very worst in the game. Very awkward hitboxes [Up smash doesn't even hit opponents right next to her], cannot kill unless she has breathing done [which is a pain to pull off during a 1v1 match], her recovery is very mediocre [a mix of horizontal and vertical, both short], sun salutation is pretty great, but soccer ball is not very accurate...there's just nothing there's outstanding about WFT to me. I think she's pretty bad next to Olimar and Charizard for me.

Are you one of the (many) people who is not aware that you can mash B during WFT's recovery to go much higher? Her vertical recovery is one of the best in the game. Soccer ball angle can be changed by pressing B again to hit higher or by canceling with shield and then hitting it with another move to get whatever angle you want (http://smashboards.com/threads/a-strong-body-is-the-base-of-a-strong-mind.371980/ for hard data). You can also shoot it very low across the stage while simultaneously ledge stalling. Grab the ledge, press away from the ledge, immediately soccer ball toward the stage, you get an instant low soccer ball and re-grab the ledge.

She doesn't kill with smashes unless she gets a hard read or punish (and upsmash does have invincibility). Her main kill moves are Uair, Bair (a lot more reliable with deep breathing), Sun Salutation, and 3 different meteors (dair, the headbutt part of soccer ball, and the reverse hitbox of f-air all spike), plus she has a pretty solid edgeguarding game in general.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Her vertical ascent is probably 75% of pits which isn't small.

 

[Link4Life!]

So, i've been using Link a bunch and improved quite a lot, however:

Any good Combos/Techniques to allow me to get some KO's? I usually rely on my sidesmash/Upsmash, but they're quite low range and if dodged allow them to punish me.

Also, Links Arrow+Boomerang game is quite good. Arrows force them to approach or shield, while the boomerang lets me move into a grab combo or a side smash.