Character Competitive Impressions

[Smooth Criminal]

Verm you better play this gaaaaaaaaame

@Pika Kong

I know a little bit about Vampire Savior. I make it a point to watch achos or any other event that streams/archives it because it's really fun to watch.

I'm incredibly sad that I never got into it beyond fooling around with Talbain.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Vermanubis]

There's a name I haven't seen in a while! Good to see you, sir.

And I most definitely am carrying on the 'Dorf legacy.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

The balance with this game, however, is a little clearer than some other entries (ignoring some glaring exceptions, which are less in number this time around in my opinion) so I doubt banning characters will be such a big controversial issue at this point in time. Later down the road we may get some glaring exceptions and a giant outlier is discovered, but for the current point in time, even those who are considered high tier have their weaknesses.

Yeah, I'm optimistically seeing a much flatter tier list coming out, assuming no major upsets. Shiek and ZSS feel moreso ahead of the pack than in a league of their own.

 

[epicgordan]

Here's the general consensus on what the tier list is likely to look like (more or less):

The Best in the game (4):
Other Viable Candidates(15):
The Counter-Picks (18):
Not Practical Competitively (but still usable) (10):
The Worst in the game (4):

The characters are alphabetized and categorized based around a general idea on where each character is likely to be on the overall tier list. It is not to be construed as a genuine tier list, and the middle three groups are subject to change when the appropriate time comes.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

^ I think Diddy is a better character than most of the top 4 you have there. He's potentially top 2 or maybe even the best in the game IMO. Monkey Flip is an absurd move, lol.

I don't really understand the resistance here to Diddy as a top tier character. I believe he's already winning tournaments and his options are all super good. I guess he's a little easier to gimp than he was in Brawl... maybe. Otherwise I can't figure out what everyone thinks his problems are exactly.

All of the "top tiers" in this game have weaknesses that are pretty exploitable. For example Rosalina is great but she's slow and a lot of her better options rely on Luma being available. ZSS is amazing, and very hard to pin down but might have issues sealing the deal vs. some more elusive characters like Sheik or some characters like Lucario. Diddy Kong tbh has fewer weaknesses than ZSS or Rosalina and probably good matchups vs both of them.

Top characters atm IMO:



I don't know what the order is but all of these characters seem really good. I'm a little on the fence about Wario, he's incredible but the grab releases give him bad match-ups vs. ZSS and Sheik once Wii U is out and people can grab release->dacus him.

The jiggs pick might be confusing, but I'm having difficulty figuring out where her bad match-ups are. She seems very well-rounded with solid strings and combos, good kill power, Brawl-tier recovery, and a level of versatility that allows her to be either aggressive or defensive depending on what she needs at the time. She can very easily compete with the other characters I've listed here with the possible exception of ZSS who is very good at keeping her out. Jigglypuff is also a trump card vs. a lot of the defensive spotdodging/rolling/whatever other nonsense people are worried about in this game. A single read over 30% ends your stock instantly.

I'm still not totally convinced about some others people have mentioned like and . I think people are sleeping a little (or a lot) on and and possibly even . is much better than she was in Brawl too, if only because she can kill you now. She might actually deserve that #19 tier position now!

 

[Luco]

^ I think Diddy is a better character than most of the top 4 you have there. He's potentially top 2 or maybe even the best in the game IMO. Monkey Flip is an absurd move, lol.

I don't really understand the resistance here to Diddy as a top tier character. I believe he's already winning tournaments and his options are all super good. I guess he's a little easier to gimp than he was in Brawl... maybe. Otherwise I can't figure out what everyone thinks his problems are exactly.

All of the "top tiers" in this game have weaknesses that are pretty exploitable. For example Rosalina is great but she's slow and a lot of her better options rely on Luma being available. ZSS is amazing, and very hard to pin down but might have issues sealing the deal vs. some more elusive characters like Sheik or some characters like Lucario. Diddy Kong tbh has fewer weaknesses than ZSS or Rosalina and probably good matchups vs both of them.

Top characters atm IMO:



I don't know what the order is but all of these characters seem really good. I'm a little on the fence about Wario, he's incredible but the grab releases give him bad match-ups vs. ZSS and Sheik once Wii U is out and people can grab release->dacus him.

I'm still not totally convinced about some others people have mentioned like and . I think people are sleeping a little (or a lot) on and and possibly even . is much better than she was in Brawl too, if only because she can kill you now. She might actually deserve that #19 tier position now!

Oh, Pac-man you say? May I ask what your thoughts are on him being so high? I don't really have an opinion, I just kept hearing kinda bad things about him so to see you praise him so highly made me curious.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Oh, Pac-man you say? May I ask what your thoughts are on him being so high? I don't really have an opinion, I just kept hearing kinda bad things about him so to see you praise him so highly made me curious.

Really? What bad thigns have you heard?

The worst thing about him is probably his grab. Otherwise he has good space and stage control, good killpower, safe everything, and good recovery. He's probably not S tier, but I think he's pretty good.

 

[Luco]

Oh, I just checked back and barely found anything; I must have exaggerated it in my mind. What I did find mentioned he found it a little hard to kill other than a good read on a smash, SideB or key, so I assumed people thought he was much lower.

Don't mind me then

 

[Shaya]

Hmm... with general tournament stuff that I've seen, as well as my custom move escapades and research

Very Good/great:

Good because they're dumb, many of which may fall drastically over time, or at least lose their spark once people learn the match ups / meta shifts towards characters who can handle them:

Good to great, honest, characters:


I think the most dangerous of the good to great, ones which will likely be able to do well throughout the game's life time or only become stronger (da bias):


Missing due to lack of idea / or perceived just short of ability to not get bodied by a wide range of characters


*DK Note: will likely have solid advantages on one half of the cast, while doing kinda poorly/average against the other half.

 

[Luco]

May I ask @ Shaya your thoughts on Lucario in regards to your placing of him in that scenario?

I was thinking about it; what kind of meta game do you think would evolve in such a way that would counter Lucario?

I haven't played as him very much, yet he strikes me as a character who's mainly good for the same reasons he was in Brawl except with buffs. So my question is probably more accurate by saying, what do you think this game has to offer that would potentially lead to strategies around Lucario? =)

 

[Shaya]

I don't ideally know where Lucario's going to end up, but he's definitely dumb.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Lucario is very very very hard to secure kills on, and the longer he stays alive, the more of a problem that becomes. His "strength" as a character multiplies exponentially as he lives longer. He is very dumb.

 

[Tagxy]

Diddy seems good but not dumb like in PM or Brawl. His punish game may be more reliable, but nerfs to his bananas and things like dash attack mellowed out his neutral game (the best in Brawl and probably PM when he had two bananas out and in place). I think the neutral game nerfs will become more pronounced once the Wii U version is out and the game develops more.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Diddy has always been a bit overrated in Brawl. In smash 4 he's probably a better, definitely a more solid character overall.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think I've played more with custom moves than most people, so my observations might have more forward-facing data in that regard:

I really think is an honest-to-God solid character. The only "ew" matchup I've had with him is Yoshi. This changes drastically if he doesn't have his customs. Then's he's just a way better Brawl Ganon, but still Brawl Ganon with most the same problems, no SH dair, and a techable flame choke. Still a better character, but way less impressive.

is a really formidable character once you start to figure her out and get past her dismal range. Her zoning tools have great coverage and high damage. She forces people to play her game. I'm can't emphasize enough how different is from others with regards to custom moves; WFT truly has a wide set of interesting options. (Unlike say Ganon, who has superior options.) Up-b 2 is an important piece of her puzzle.

Lastly, 's Timber Counter is a character defining move that demands the character be considered from scratch. (Maybe the "best" custom move.) You can learn to deal with it, but it is a game-changer in a lot of matchups. You need good ranged attacks or a non-punishable move that does 15%+ (like Ganon bair) to consistently return to neutral. Note that Villager has counterplay to all of theses options--he can pocket projectiles, engage in a advantaged ranged war, shieldgrab long-range melee attacks, u-smash to cover the tree, or of course chop it down.

I don't mean to talk about customs all the time or overstate their significance; I just feel like this is the focus of unique information I can share.

 

[ZombieBran]

Oh man, the counter tree.
I fought a Villager with that hidden up his sleeve.

If there is a custom more ridiculous than that, I'd love to see it

 

[Tagxy]

Diddy has always been a bit overrated in Brawl. In smash 4 he's probably a better, definitely a more solid character overall.

It depends on how strongly you weigh the neutral vs punish game. Most old diddy mains seem sort of agreeable to diddys neutral being not as strong, though I havent searched it out much. Of course this is sort of a classic argument, and the reason theres some that would say falco is a better character than Fox in melee or ICs better than MK in Brawl which I see as reasonable even if I disagree. I put a higher value on having a superior neutral.

 

[Thinkaman]

You don't need to know virtually any of the custom moves to fight the character.

Wobbuffet Tree is the exception that proves the rule.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Custom moves and how they are standardized into tournament rules sets will play into characters viability a lot. Whether they are banned (eventually,) set at tournament registration, or something you can change match to match/round to round/on the blind makes huge differences for many characters.

Sure, characters like Sheik are great and don't need their customs for serious improvements, but can you imagine not only being able to counter pick characters/stages but also specials?

Point being, not only is it hard to gauge tiers or overall impressions based on the short interval of time the game has been out, but based on what rules we choose to play by. Custom specials throw a wrench into judging balance without knowing how the will be incorporated. It's new and exciting.

*Discalimer: Not to say it's impossible to give impressions, just adding a point that I think is underrepresented.

 

[Sarix]

Out of curiosity how do people feel about how easy it is to tech out of moves after like 7% that can meteor?

At least from what characters I tested with it effectively makes the move with the meteor property almost counter intuitive to use. My reason being that with the characters I tested with, their move animations were still finishing until after the opponent had teched far enough away to prevent follow ups.

 

[Thinkaman]

Sure, characters like Sheik are great and don't need their customs for serious improvements, but can you imagine not only being able to counter pick characters/stages but also specials?

I mean, that's how I've been playing. It's pretty mundane honestly... "Oh, a rushdown matchup; I'll take WFT's side-b 3. Oh, a zoning matchup; I'll take Bowser's neutral-b 2. Oh, Rosaluma; I'll take my piercing projectile."

It's great for matchup balance, but let's not pretend this is some big, complicated tactical choice. If people want to select a different custom move for a matchup, it's usually for a pretty obvious reason.

It's not like it takes additional time to select a different custom set. Even if you have to make it from scratch for some reason, it's literally 10 seconds.

 

[Terotrous]

Really? What bad thigns have you heard?

The worst thing about him is probably his grab. Otherwise he has good space and stage control, good killpower, safe everything, and good recovery. He's probably not S tier, but I think he's pretty good.

He's also been placing high in Japanese tournaments.

 

[Lenus Altair]

I mean, that's how I've been playing. It's pretty mundane honestly... "Oh, a rushdown matchup; I'll take WFT's side-b 3. Oh, a zoning matchup; I'll take Bowser's neutral-b 2. Oh, Rosaluma; I'll take my piercing projectile."

It's great for matchup balance, but let's not pretend this is some big, complicated tactical choice. If people want to select a different custom move for a matchup, it's usually for a pretty obvious reason.

Do you feel that it will be that straight forward for a majority of matchups? Will there always be a right answer?

Consider your opponent will be counter picking specials too, probably knowing (as a competitive player would) the most commonly picked counter move for their character is X.

I'm not asking to antagonize, just to clarify how much/little influence you feel is there. You may well be right.

 

[Thinkaman]

Ampharos and myself have been methodically going through the cast and looking are various custom move sets, so we're zeroing in on a pretty good idea of how things will work out.

I expect the majority of players/characters to use the same moveset in all matchups.

A small percentage of characters will use 2 or perhaps 3 sets. It is usually just one specific move that is worth changing, rarely two. WFT and Palutena will have likely have several sets. (Miis probably won't; most of their options have clear winners for 1v1)

I currently expect all characters to always take the same specials on a matchup basis. I've been vigilantly on the lookout for cases where your choice depends on what the specials the other character took. While I can hardly say I've considered all 1200+ matchups, I haven't found any yet. I do think it is reasonable to exist though, and think the following 4 cases are possibilities:

• Palutena, Falco, and possibly others vary their reflector options based on matchup. If a character exists who has a preferred projectile, but a version that is significantly better against reflectors and only slightly less preferred otherwise, they might counter-pick specials. I am unsure any character has a projectile choice truly like this though. Maybe Samus and Lucario neutral-b? Maybe DHD can?
• DHD has the option to take a worse gunman who is a better anti-projectile shield. It is possible that some characters might take a different projectile option based on which gunman DHD is using. But again, I haven't identified such a case yet.
• Villager has Wobbuffet Tree, which completely changes a lot of his matchups. It currently looks like Villager would take it in every matchup, because it's so good. But, if for some reason he doesn't, this might change the response of many characters who rely on specials to beat it.
• If Rosalina Luma Warp proves viable, this might change the way she is played enough such that some characters may prefer different specials. That's a lot of ifs though.

 

[Thinkaman]

An example of an almost counterpick case that isn't, is Samus vs. Palutena.

Palutena has two really good side-b options: Reflect Barrier, and Super Speed. She's prefer to take Super Speed wherever possible (it's a great move), but Reflect Barrier is too good to pass up in most projectile-heavy matchups.

Samus has an option to replace Charge Shot with a shotgun blast that technically isn't a projectile, and cannot be reflected.

So we could have a situation where Samus and Palutena want to pick based on what the other person picked. But in practice, that doesn't happen, because:

• Samus's shotgun blast is awful, and should probably never be picked.
• Palutena still needs to take Reflect Barrier to deal with missiles.

So, neither side actually wants to change from what they were always going with for this matchup--even if the other changes.

There are lots of cases like this--situations where it looks like the possibility for counterpicking specials could exist, but ultimately doesn't.

 

[Terotrous]

Yeah I think it's pretty clear that custom moves as a concept had a ton of potential, but unfortunately they were kind of lazily designed. A very interesting tradeoff for a lot of up specials would be "decreased recovery distance / attack power but doesn't become helpless", but I don't think there's actually any that have this. So many missed opportunities.

Oh well, if we ever get a Smash 4 Plus or something, I'm sure hackers could do amazing things with the custom specials.

 

[san.]

I know I'll be using all of Ike's specials except for possibly upB 3 and downB 3 depending on the stage, opponent's playstyle, and MU. Some of them, particularly Eruption 2 and 3, are a little too good in my eyes with its spammable windbox (can use it 3-5 times offstage easily) that aids recovery, and gigantic hitbox that lingers.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

An example of an almost counterpick case that isn't, is Samus vs. Palutena.

Palutena has two really good side-b options: Reflect Barrier, and Super Speed. She's prefer to take Super Speed wherever possible (it's a great move), but Reflect Barrier is too good to pass up in most projectile-heavy matchups.

Samus has an option to replace Charge Shot with a shotgun blast that technically isn't a projectile, and cannot be reflected.

So we could have a situation where Samus and Palutena want to pick based on what the other person picked. But in practice, that doesn't happen, because:

• Samus's shotgun blast is awful, and should probably never be picked.
• Palutena still needs to take Reflect Barrier to deal with missiles.

So, neither side actually wants to change from what they were always going with for this matchup--even if the other changes.

There are lots of cases like this--situations where it looks like the possibility for counterpicking specials could exist, but ultimately doesn't.

Melee Charge Shot has only one advantage: It charges much faster. On the other hand, it is actually weaker than a standard Charge Shot and still has forever and a day of recovery time, making the darn thing effing useless. Now, if it at least hit for the same 24% as a standard Charge Shot with the additional advantage of less endlag, then it would be good.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah I think it's pretty clear that custom moves as a concept had a ton of potential, but unfortunately they were kind of lazily designed.

Hm? As the guy who has probably spent the most time on them (besides maybe based @NinjaLink), I think the custom specials are really solid.

Keep in mind that the biggest design success of custom specials is to take moves and movesets focused around FFA play (Ike, Ganon, Zelda, ect) and allow alternatives better suited for a competitive 1v1 environment, thus improving balance across the roster.

Most of the "duds" for 1v1 high-level play are still interesting and compelling moves at lower level play or with more players.

A very interesting tradeoff for a lot of up specials would be "decreased recovery distance / attack power but doesn't become helpless", but I don't think there's actually any that have this. So many missed opportunities.

This is an important thing that custom specials /shouldn't/ change. This sort of consistency in the moveset, following the same "rules", is important. It's jarring to switch around circumstances in which you/your opponent can/cannot respond.

 

[Terotrous]

This is an important thing that custom special's /shouldn't/ change. This sort of consistency in the moveset, following the same "rules", is important. It's jarring to switch around circumstances in which you/your opponent can/cannot respond.

I totally disagree, I think a meaningful custom move definitely should have the potential to change the matchup. That's why you're seeing that there's very few situations where there's more than one viable set and that there's almost no situations why you'd want to counterpick based on the options your opponent chose.

Wobuffet Tree is basically the only custom move that really changes the game, the others are all just the same thing but a little better or worse or they're just flat out useless. I'd want every single custom move to have some interesting applications and be a potential option you'd have to think about when playing against that character.

 

[Thinkaman]

More viable custom moves would probably be an undisputed net positive, sure. (The same way that more (viable) characters is a good thing. Maybe there's some eventual limit, but we're not close to it yet.)

But, given the scope of the system--something is is trying to offer something to everyone--it's only natural (if disappointing) that you have most options apply to some contexts more than others. There are a lot of really cool FFA-focused custom moves that will never see the light of day in competitive 1v1 play. And, that's okay.

As long as we got good 1v1 alternatives too, which we did!



As for customs that change up the game, all of Palutena's, Miis, and WFT's definitely count. Then you've got stuff like Wobbuffet tree, Wizard's Dropkick, Close Combat, Shooting Star Bit, Dragon Rush, Dash Slash, all 3 Clown Karts, Pisces, all 3 DHD cans, all 3 Bananas, and all the Bonus Fruit variations definitely count.

Then you have stuff like Thoron+, where a simple change to the numbers makes the entire character play quite a bit differently.

 

[Terotrous]

As for customs that change up the game, all of Palutena's, Miis, and WFT's definitely count. Then you've got stuff like Wobbuffet tree, Wizard's Dropkick, Close Combat, Shooting Star Bit, Dragon Rush, Dash Slash, all 3 Clown Karts, Pisces, all 3 DHD cans, all 3 Bananas, and all the Bonus Fruit variations definitely count.

Then you have stuff like Thoron+, where a simple change to the numbers makes the entire character play quite a bit differently.

Some of those are legit, but for Wizard's Dropkick I feel like that one is just purely better than the original. I'm also not convinced that the DHD cans are all that good (apart from the original one), but I guess we'll see if they ever get enabled in a major tournament.

I am still salty though that some of the moves have such boring customs. There should be a drinking game where you take a drink every time a character's up B customs are just "one does more damage, the other does no damage at all but has extra recovery". I definitely feel that Pikachu at least should have an up B variant where he can act afterwards but the move itself isn't an attack. Probably Zelda too, god knows she needs it.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I am still salty though that some of the moves have such boring customs. There should be a drinking game where you take a drink every time a character's up B customs are just "one does more damage, the other does no damage at all but has extra recovery".

Pretty much this. XD

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think people are really sleeping on Doc ATM but I do agree he's probably low tier. He's definitely really solid even if he's not as well rounded as Mario.

After playing with him longer, my overall thoughts are

- Pills are great space control, can force an opponent to approach in a particular way.
- Shorthop is AMAZING with Doc
- Bair is good
- OoS is amazing with a Dolphin Slash like Up+B sweetspot.
- D-Throw is better than Mario's in certain MUs only because Peach/Link/T.Link can't combo break it as it pops them above Doc and not to the side.
- Fair is okay but not great for kills
- Fsmash and its range buff make it a force to be reckoned with.
- DSmash's amazing back hitbox make it an ideal punish.

He's not bad, really....but not that GREAT either. Probably slightly worse than Mario but they're very close (they actually balanced Doc and Mario side-by-side this time it looks like!) I still think Doc can compete with most of the cast, mostly in even/4-6 matchups, with some good ones along the way. Works for me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucario is everything that is wrong with comeback mechanics in fighting games but in the form of a playable character. Itachi in Ninja Storm ain't got **** on Lucario.

Getting ***** to be scary = nonsense of the highest order

 

[deepseadiva]

is much better than she was in Brawl too, if only because she can kill you now. She might actually deserve that #19 tier position now!

Oh look your snarky ass is back.

 

[AvariceX]

Most underrated / slept-on / overlooked character: Wii Fit Trainer
Biggest question marks: DDD, Palutena, Duck Hunt

Wii Fit is certainly awkward for anyone starting out with her but she has solid options for basically everything. Her only real problem is lack of a killing move with good range but she does have Sun Salutation. Deep Breathing doesn't last nearly long enough for how much of a risk and commitment it is though. Her custom moves (especially Hoop Hurricane, Volatile Breathing, and Huge Header) are just insanely good too.

The penguin king lost a lot of what made him good in Brawl, but also kept some of it and gained some new stuff (I like his new d-air quite a bit despite it not being as good for shield poking, and Gordo Throw is a bit of a tossup). He's gonna have some rough matchups but I don't know if he'll actually be bad. He seems good outside of his problem matchups.

DHD is just weird. He's a pretty solid projectile camping character but once you understand the mechanics of his specials the zoning patterns become pretty predictable and manageable to weave through for some characters, but I think a good number of characters will still have trouble getting in. I'm not really sold on his up-close normal game but it seems okay enough that he doesn't just lose when you get in (he's not Dhalsim). I don't think I can accurately predict where this character will land at all. Personally for now I think upper-mid but I just don't know.

I'd like to hear more about Lucario as well. I liked him alright in Brawl but he felt a little awkward to me in this game (not really sure what changed since I didn't play him very much regardless).

I think some people are being a little too harsh on Lucina too. Yes on paper she is just a worse Marth, no argument there. In practice though even if you are phenomenal at hitting Marth tippers you aren't always hitting them, especially on speedster characters or characters with good aerial mobility (there are a lot of them in this game). I think there actually is significant merit in picking Lucina over Marth if it suits you or if it suits the matchup. In the end though I think she's probably just going to be 1 spot below Marth in the tiers, there just isn't enough difference between them to separate them further than that. The easy rebuttal is how much worse Roy was than Marth in Melee but Roy had a lot of problems (he still had a sweetspot on his sword but it was the opposite of where you wanted to be hitting with a long range character, he was at a weird middle-ground between a fast-faller and a floaty lightweight which made him both easy to kill and easy to combo and he didn't gain much of the unpredictable movement of the true fast-fallers, and to top it off he had very little combo ability to speak of and iirc he even did less damage than Marth on individual hits). Lucina is literally Marth without a tipper sweetspot, the only other difference is one's a girl and the other is Lucina (also Marth is just slightly taller).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Can people go easy on the girl jokes with Marth now? He got nerfed you know. Or did he body everyone THAT badly in the past that the wounds will never heal? Or perhaps you are pissed that he's prettier than any woman you will ever date IRL? So many plausible explanations.

 

[Jabejazz]

Biggest question marks: DDD, Palutena, Duck Hunt

Palutena is bonkers with her custom moves because of how she has tools to deal with a lot of different matchups.

DDD suffers from the same things he did in Brawl; he's a fat, midrange character that has a hard time getting in.

Can people go easy on the girl jokes with Marth now?.

Whatever do you mean

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dedede...tries to get in?

OMG I HAD IT ALL WROOOOOOOOOOOONG!!!!

*jumps out of a skyscraper