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Character Competitive Impressions

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Terotrous

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Banning characters is a silly idea to most players of any FG scene. Nobody has considered banning any Melee top tiers for any reason (though there was a time when people cried for a Puff ban and people just laughed at them).
Well, boss character bans are super common. Akuma is banned in SSF2T, for example. Almost all SNK games with playable bosses have them banned too.

It's true that bans of non-boss characters generally aren't a matter to be approached lightly (unless you're the pokemon community). I hope that if Little Mac or Sheik are that dominant that Nintendo will just patch the damn game, but I think it would be their first balance patch ever if they did it.
 
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FlareHabanero

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These shoes are made for runnin'

And that's just what they'll do

One of these days these shoes

Are gonna run all over you~ :4sonic:

:4dedede:
You may not see it, but this penguin's got a sad smile on his face. I don't know what in the blue blazes I'm gonna do to that damn running rodent. You're right, that match-up is straight masochism.

But I have a hammer. That counts, right?

Smooth Criminal
Want to win? Grab him. You grab that autistic rodent and yell in his face "HEY, YOU'RE MY ***** NOW", and then activate Dragon Install and blow him the **** out using your mighty girth. He's already perfect, you better be living up the reputation boy.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Well, boss character bans are super common. Akuma is banned in SSF2T, for example. Almost all SNK games with playable bosses have them banned too.

It's true that bans of non-boss characters generally aren't a matter to be approached lightly (unless you're the pokemon community). I hope that if Little Mac or Sheik are that dominant that Nintendo will just patch the damn game, but I think it would be their first balance patch ever if they did it.
I'm more worried that Nintendo will only use For Glory mode data to decide balance patches. That would end up with Little Mac been unnecessarily nerfed into the ground.
 

deepseadiva

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Some of yall talk about this game so factually. As if it hasn't been out for less than 12 freakin days.
 

Terotrous

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Of the 3 neutrals you typically see, 2 have at least 1 platform. One platform is enough to swing a lot of matchups against lil mac. That's 1 of 3 matches, at the very least, where you can utilize platform camping.
Mac actually doesn't seem to have too much trouble with the platform on Yoshis. There's probably parts where he can upsmash through it, or worst case he could just short hop up there, it's big enough to give him some room to get on the platform and fighting. It's mostly just battlefield.


Most counterpicks have at least one consistent platform as well. I don't know what stage lists you're looking at where this isn't the case.
Right now, the counterpick stages I'm seeing are Arena Ferox and Prism Tower. On both, none of the platforms persist between transformations.


You can't honestly suggest his upb as a very consistent counter to this strat. The risk:reward ratio isn't very good aside from the occasional hard-read.
If anything, his counter helps him the most here.
It seems like it probably shouldn't work, but Bwett was using it pretty effectively at Shockwave 3.

Really, I think anyone who thinks Little Mac is not OP should be watching Bwett play. Or better yet, go to Texas and smash his Little Mac into the ground.
 

FlareHabanero

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Fighting against Little Mac is like a boxing match. You have to defend yourself until you see an opening. This means that you'll need to have patience, being reckless from experience doesn't work and more times then not you're going to eat it. This is reflected from Little Mac's prospective too, since he cannot afford to be knocked in the air and off the stage, so a good Mac player will also try to play it safe until they can captilize on a mistake made by the opponent. So basically, both sides try to out smart each other, with the smater moves leading to victory.

I'm a Shulk main, and I have to basically play the boxing mentality because of Shulk's attacks being somewhat slow. It's one of those situations where his signature Monado Arts don't work, instead the priority is shifted to using aerial attacks and use Vision whenever appropriate. Even if I pick a more offensive character like Greninja, I still try to bait a mistake so I can safely retaliate instead of going full blown #yolo.
 
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Starbound

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Can we just wait for some tournaments to happen before we call out characters for being ban candidates?

The best characters are going to have the strongest appearances at tournaments, and there haven't been enough tournaments yet to see what characters are the ones that are performing the best.
 

ZombieBran

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Well the title of this thread says "impressions". If someone gets the impression that a character has potential to be broken and can give reasons as to why, I'd think this thread is where that should be discussed.
 
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D

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Was :metaknight: banned in Brawl, that one character who had no negative match ups and only one neutral matchup, who so happened to shut down quite a portion of the roster from any kind of viability? No. Good luck trying to convince the community that :4littlemac:,:rosalina:,:4zss:, and :4sheik: need to be banned at some point because its not happening.
 

Gunla

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Was :metaknight: banned in Brawl, that one character who had no negative match ups and only one neutral matchup, who so happened to shut down quite a portion of the roster from any kind of viability? No. Good luck trying to convince the community that :4littlemac:,:rosalina:,:4zss:, and :4sheik: need to be banned at some point because its not happening.
Actually, Meta Knight was banned at one point, but the choice was quite controversial. Following the Unity Ruleset Committee's disbanding, MK returned to the fold. Of course, that being said, MK isn't the only character that had a nearly clean record in Brawl. Icies are a menace with their terrifying chaingrabs.

The balance with this game, however, is a little clearer than some other entries (ignoring some glaring exceptions, which are less in number this time around in my opinion) so I doubt banning characters will be such a big controversial issue at this point in time. Later down the road we may get some glaring exceptions and a giant outlier is discovered, but for the current point in time, even those who are considered high tier have their weaknesses.
 
D

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Actually, Meta Knight was banned at one point, but the choice was quite controversial. Following the Unity Ruleset Committee's disbanding, MK returned to the fold. Of course, that being said, MK isn't the only character that had a nearly clean record in Brawl. Icies are a menace with their terrifying chaingrabs.

The balance with this game, however, is a little clearer than some other entries (ignoring some glaring exceptions, which are less in number this time around in my opinion) so I doubt banning characters will be such a big controversial issue at this point in time. Later down the road we may get some glaring exceptions and a giant outlier is discovered, but for the current point in time, even those who are considered high tier have their weaknesses.
I know that Meta Knight was banned. But did he stay banned? Of course not. Its nice that you brought up the Ice Climbers, another near perfect character that guess what, wasn't banned.
 

Terotrous

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Can we just wait for some tournaments to happen before we call out characters for being ban candidates?

The best characters are going to have the strongest appearances at tournaments, and there haven't been enough tournaments yet to see what characters are the ones that are performing the best.
There have been some tournaments. Tourney Locator has run four of them now, and a couple other places have had them as well.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RgOMLoIhS_pxlRHS-BErYB

You should check out some Shockwave, there's some pretty legitimate play there (including a Little Mac who will change your opinion of that character if you think he's for scrubs)


Fighting against Little Mac is like a boxing match. You have to defend yourself until you see an opening.
The problem is that in addition to being really fast and strong, Little Mac's attacks are also very safe, so he leaves almost no openings if played well. God forbid if he's got KO punch on deck, if you get baited by anything or even sit in shield too long it's lights out.

Really, I think it will become clear that defensive play really isn't viable against good Little Macs, the strategy is likely more skewed towards relentless offense, you have to get him offstage and then go full ham to make sure that he dies.
 
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SamuraiPanda

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I'm going to do this because I can. I have a few predictions of my own. There is no order within the categories; being higher or lower in the same category doesn't mean anything. I can honestly see almost any character in the top 2 categories win a tournament.

Strongest characters (likely will stay Top or High):
Yoshi
Rosaluma (Could slip down as people learn the matchup)
Lucario
Sonic
ZSS
Diddy
Wario
Greninja
Shiek
Captain Falcon

Solid characters (will land somewhere in high/upper mid tiers):
ROB
Villager
Ness
Bowser
Mii Gunner
Mii Fighter
Duck Hunt Dog
Donkey Kong
Pac-man
Metaknight

Middle-of-the-road characters (at best upper mid, at worst high low tier):
Little mac
Mii Swordsman
Bowser Jr
Charizard
Pit/Dark Pit
Wii Fit Trainer (may belong up a tier)
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Dedede

Just bad (not actually that bad):
Shulk
Ike
Olimar
Zelda
Palutena


???:
Peach
Link
Toon Link
Robin
Kirby
Fox
Falco
Doctor Mario
Lucina
Mega Man
Mario
Luigi
MrG&W
Samus
Marth
Pikachu
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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I know that Meta Knight was banned. But did he stay banned? Of course not. Its nice that you brought up the Ice Climbers, another near perfect character that guess what, wasn't banned.
Only reason he wasn't was due to NJ and Alex Strife saying no to banning him.

Otherwise he would have.
 

SamuraiPanda

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Why do you think DK is solid?
This is not accusatory, I am legitimately curious.
Amazing horizontal speed, solid aerial options for spacing/comboing/killing, massively buffed specials except up/neutral B (down B way more viable, side B nearly guaranteed shield break and doesn't stop you in the air anymore, almost 20% damage on grounded up B). Good off stage options and pretty solid dtilt/utilt. I think DK has the makings of a high tier character but I think with enhanced meteors/footstools in Smash 4 it will be his easily gimped recovery along with bad trading in the air (his dair doesn't beat shiek's uair which is kinda silly) that will make winning with him an uphill battle against some of the best characters. I may have placed him one category too high but I do think he is better than people give him credit for.

You think Greninja is that low?
No order within the categories.
 
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D

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Only reason he wasn't was due to NJ and Alex Strife saying no to banning him.

Otherwise he would have.
Beat around the bush all you want, point still stands that he wasn't banned. Why is it so impossible to believe that if one character is "considered to be overpowered" [even though its still not going to be at Meta Knight levels if we're going by the majority's opinions…] that major TOs will oppose the banning of said character? You can throw around every bit of evidence pointing towards why he should've been banned, but you can't argue against the fact that he isn't banned. I'm not going to respond to this anymore since we're just going to end up repeating the same stuff.
 

Jahordon

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So I've been playing a lot of Yoshi and Greninja, and I'm really struggling to see how people think Yoshi is great. His neutral game is good, but he can't really approach safely, and he has a lot of trouble setting up kills. His shield also breaks very quickly.

I love Greninja, but I am starting to doubt him for his lack of approach, too. Shuriken can't get past the numerous reflectors and is easy to spot dodge. Shadow sneak isn't reliable. Nair is fast and lag less, but I think it is easily shield-grabbed. Bair can outrange grabs and is lag free, but it is hard to land on small characters. Maybe I am underestimating these two, or maybe nobody in this game has reliable approaches. Can anybody offer their opinion?
 

Gunla

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I find that Greninja's Dash Attack is a very good tool for safe approaches at times. The problem is that it can require a bit of timing. His Nair is good for entry, but the shield grabbing issue has caused me to use DAir or the ranged Nair a bit more often against certain characters.

Sneak is slightly situational and I use it more often for recovery or on a player unwittingly standing still. On stages like Pac-Maze or Flat Zone, Sneak is good because the shadow is barely visible, so it's a lot less predictable.

Shuriken's a bit of a spacer tool. I find it good to poke players who are camping, or to take out recovering opponents.

Greninja's grab range is not good, however, but it's at least reliable when timed right from my experience.
 
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Gunla

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His grab range isn't good? I dunno man, that **** feels like a tether grab sometimes.
I guess it can. I mean, sometimes I have a lot of trouble landing it because of the shorter range (as I'm too used to a character with a good grab range) so I mess it up once in a while.

That's just me, though.
 

Terotrous

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So I've been playing a lot of Yoshi and Greninja, and I'm really struggling to see how people think Yoshi is great. His neutral game is good, but he can't really approach safely, and he has a lot of trouble setting up kills. His shield also breaks very quickly.
Yoshi is super versatile, that's his biggest strength. He doesn't have huge combos or massive kill power, but he's generally got a tool for every situation. You have to use that versatility to get your kills, get the opponent worried about one option, then go for a different one. Or just Down B out of shield, it's bonkers.
 

JamietheAuraUser

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So does anyone have a clue what Pit's gameplan is? I can't seem to figure it out. Rising short-hop NAir seems good, and FTilt is pretty decent if you can land the sweetspot. Rolls are great, jab combo is usable. DTilt seems "nerfed" in that it sends the foe at a low angle instead of a vertical launch, and it seems like Pit really wishes he had a good pop-up move from neutral that isn't just his dash attack. FThrow seems to have KO power at pretty reasonable percents. I keep trying to FAir string people off the stage, though, and it just doesn't work on most of the cast since you really can't land more than like 3 of them (if that) before you're out of jumps and most of the cast can recover from that if it doesn't happen to push them straight over the blast line.

As for Lucario, why do people think he's good in neutral? Nothing he has is fast at all. FSmash has no range now, FTilt is slower and seems to have less reach, DSmash has no range now, USmash has no range now, DTilt feels meh, UTilt is amazing at juggles but also lost a lot of its range. Admittedly when his percent gets higher you can just Force Palm people from 1/3rd of the way across FD and call that a neutral game, but I'm not sure that really counts. Yeah he has a counter, but it's basically terribad because it seems pretty easy to shield it and it does next to nothing to shields. Admittedly this is with all default moves, no customs.

On the custom move side of things, though, Lucario has the ever-amazing Piercing Aura Sphere (spam everyday! Also moves super fast, so you can chuck it at someone offscreen to shove them the rest of the way over the blast line) and Extreme Speed Attack (now I don't have to attempt to sweetspot a move with variable distance! On the other hand, weaker distance overall).

But yeah, I know Lucario is ridiculous with Aura boosts in this game, but I think he's actually nerfed at 0 compared to Brawl.
 

SamuraiPanda

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So does anyone have a clue what Pit's gameplan is? I can't seem to figure it out. Rising short-hop NAir seems good, and FTilt is pretty decent if you can land the sweetspot. Rolls are great, jab combo is usable. DTilt seems "nerfed" in that it sends the foe at a low angle instead of a vertical launch, and it seems like Pit really wishes he had a good pop-up move from neutral that isn't just his dash attack. FThrow seems to have KO power at pretty reasonable percents. I keep trying to FAir string people off the stage, though, and it just doesn't work on most of the cast since you really can't land more than like 3 of them (if that) before you're out of jumps and most of the cast can recover from that if it doesn't happen to push them straight over the blast line.
Honestly I kinda feel like Pit is the new Marth. Spacing out his tilts and stuff is super important and he's safe when he spaces correctly but unsafe when he screws it up. He's got a great dash start and his turn around ftilt/fsmash are great tools against opponents forced to approach you. And his grab/dash grab are excellent. But his aerial game just seems a bit lacking in power, priority, and speed.

I put my time into pink Pit and I just can't quite get him to work like I was hoping he would.
 

Shaya

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Yeah, Pit is definitely within the Marth/swordsman archetype now.

Like if you compare the differences between Marth and Meta Knight, and average them out, that's basically Pit's normals now.
I do hope characters like the Marths, Pits, and to an extent MK and other capable aggressors are strong in the meta, as they are the types that will produce the most dynamic/fast game play I feel (reactive game play is the peak of Smash).

So yeah, want to be cool with a character that shouldn't lose to anyone? Pick the swordsmen.
 
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Vermanubis

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I'm still on the fence, since there's a pending AT that could bring Ganon to at least mid (DACUS), but my gut feeling is that Ganon's definitely teetering in the lowest netherregions. I've had the (dis)pleasure (well, I admit, it's indeed been a pleasure to fight these good players, but a very tedious one) of having my matches approach time because Ganon's lack of AC DAir and FH double aerials mitigate his movement options pretty badly. He has even less of an approach than in Brawl.

And choke being techable is a nightmare. He's also absolutely helpless from behind, and can't punish most things on shield outside of hard reads because of his still-t-rex-like grab range.

But again, I'm careful not to commit to a concrete opinion yet. I know he's definitely not much better, if better at all. But when I get into campy MUs like Diddy, ZSS, Sheik, Rosalina, Peach, Megaman, etc. and they don't approach and know how to tech chokes, well... takes just about all you got.
 
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SamuraiPanda

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Yeah, Pit is definitely within the Marth/swordsman archetype now.

Like if you compare the differences between Marth and Meta Knight, and average them out, that's basically Pit's normals now.
I do hope characters like the Marths, Pits, and to an extent MK and other capable aggressors are strong in the meta, as they are the types that will produce the most dynamic/fast game play I feel (reactive game play is the peak of Smash).

So yeah, want to be cool with a character that shouldn't lose to anyone? Pick the swordsmen.
You forget the Mii Swordsman. My SmriPnda Mii just exudes cool. But I do lose with him >_>
 
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Spirst

 
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I guess it can. I mean, sometimes I have a lot of trouble landing it because of the shorter range (as I'm too used to a character with a good grab range) so I mess it up once in a while.

That's just me, though.
I feel like Greninja's grab animation is a bit misleading on the range it actually has. That said, I still think it's at least decent and is aided by his slippery movement.
 

SamuraiPanda

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I'm still on the fence, since there's a pending AT that could bring Ganon to at least mid (DACUS), but my gut feeling is that Ganon's definitely teetering in the lowest netherregions. I've had the (dis)pleasure (well, I admit, it's indeed been a pleasure to fight these good players, but a very tedious one) of having my matches approach time because Ganon's lack of AC DAir and FH double aerials mitigate his movement options pretty badly. He has even less of an approach than in Brawl.

And choke being techable is a nightmare. He's also absolutely helpless from behind, and can't punish most things on shield outside of hard reads because of his still-t-rex-like grab range.

But again, I'm careful not to commit to a concrete opinion yet. I know he's definitely not much better, if better at all. But when I get into campy MUs like Diddy, ZSS, Sheik, Rosalina, Peach, Megaman, etc. and they don't approach and know how to tech chokes, well... takes just about all you got.
From what I hear, Gannon will be a solid character if/when custom moves are more accepted.
 

Vermanubis

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From what I hear, Gannon will be a solid character if/when custom moves are more accepted.
There's definitely a lot of hope there, but even then, imo, even his most optimal moveset won't touch some of his most vital shortcomings, but rather, make semi-non-issues into complete non-issues. The two moves that I think have the highest hopes placed in them are wizard dropkick (the blue divekick) and his dark fists (slower, but stronger and higher upb). For WDK, some think it'll solve projectile problems - I don't think it will any more than normal wizkick. Wizkick already cancels projectiles and you can FTilt out of it, so it's a fair enough anti-projectile measure. I see hope in its insane horizontal aerial range; might give him a concrete landing option, which is another big issue.

Right now, all hopes rest, for me, anyway, in the DACUS. 3DS controls make it impractical to do with him, but if it turns out to be useable, Ganon couldn't ask for a more apt buff. An approach that's safe on everything, cancels, and kills really early.
 
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-Mars-

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Yeah, Pit is definitely within the Marth/swordsman archetype now.

Like if you compare the differences between Marth and Meta Knight, and average them out, that's basically Pit's normals now.
I do hope characters like the Marths, Pits, and to an extent MK and other capable aggressors are strong in the meta, as they are the types that will produce the most dynamic/fast game play I feel (reactive game play is the peak of Smash).

So yeah, want to be cool with a character that shouldn't lose to anyone? Pick the swordsmen.
If you want dynamic, reactive based gameplay...Sheik and Zss are going to be the ones to deliver on that front.

Not these gimped versions of Marth and MK.
 

MysteriousSilver

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Well, boss character bans are super common. Akuma is banned in SSF2T, for example. Almost all SNK games with playable bosses have them banned too.

It's true that bans of non-boss characters generally aren't a matter to be approached lightly (unless you're the pokemon community). I hope that if Little Mac or Sheik are that dominant that Nintendo will just patch the damn game, but I think it would be their first balance patch ever if they did it.
SCIV banned Hilde, and for pretty good reason, but it had a big impact on the community.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I'm still on the fence, since there's a pending AT that could bring Ganon to at least mid (DACUS), but my gut feeling is that Ganon's definitely teetering in the lowest netherregions. I've had the (dis)pleasure (well, I admit, it's indeed been a pleasure to fight these good players, but a very tedious one) of having my matches approach time because Ganon's lack of AC DAir and FH double aerials mitigate his movement options pretty badly. He has even less of an approach than in Brawl.

And choke being techable is a nightmare. He's also absolutely helpless from behind, and can't punish most things on shield outside of hard reads because of his still-t-rex-like grab range.

But again, I'm careful not to commit to a concrete opinion yet. I know he's definitely not much better, if better at all. But when I get into campy MUs like Diddy, ZSS, Sheik, Rosalina, Peach, Megaman, etc. and they don't approach and know how to tech chokes, well... takes just about all you got.
He can punish chokes that are teched on the ground, I hear not everyone can do this though?, and on the ground he still has frame advantage if they do tech it so he's not screwed. His aerial one though....

That said, I do not think he is "bad" in this game like bottom tier Brawl at all with or without customs. Customs do help him quite a bit though.

But he feels a lot more solid this time around.
 

Luco

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Sorry to bring this back; it's just due to my timezone i often miss out on discussions. :(

Also glad to see DHD is being rated pretty highly generally; I love DHD and may secondary him if I get good enough with him. <3

But onto my main point. I agree with Smooth Criminal in that I don't feel Little Mac will be broken. I can totally see him high tier - any character with the ability to come back and capitalise on one mistake to kill you outright after taking some hits is almost like a slightly worse ICs. That said, I highly, HIGHLY doubt he'll be broken status. Little mac can't play a ground game forever... like, he just can't. Many multi-hit moves go through his super-armour on moves and just disrupt him (PK Fire is so good in this match-up <3); but the point is, if Mac is pushed into the air he suddenly has really, really bad options. His mobility is okay but not enough to save him from most grounded characters, and what is he really going to do to get that extra mobility to avoid punishes? Side-B into helpless state? Otherwise I see him relying on airdodges and effectual mindgames to try and get back on stage and that's just too much of a limiting factor to put him at MK status. Not just in the air generally, but off-stage he's one of the few characters who's recovery is so bad it doesn't take advantage of the different ledge-game that smash 4 has created. By many characters, he can be more or less outright edge-guarded for free.

On stage, Mac is an absolute beast. Yet if his aerial and offstage weaknesses are exploited, his match-ups become polarising and overall the character is not strong enough to be classed as overpowered.

And the fact of the matter is, I don't see a way in which those weaknesses won't get exploited by some characters or others. I've had a bit of Mac experience by now and i'm reasonably sure he won't be broken. Just very good. :)

EDIT: I feel embarrassed for trying to mix up my writing style now. :/
 
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Vermanubis

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Very few he can do this to. Only characters with abysmal rolls like Little Mac, Pikachu and Bowser. As for the frame advantage on the ground, a neutral tech > jab is a true punish, as far as I know, for characters like Sheik/Mac. If not a punish, Ganon's only recourse is to shield.

As for his solidity, I can't argue that he definitely feels more "general purpose," in that which his he was polished from a hexagon into a square - that is, minor corrections have been made, but his most pronounced flaws remain the same, if not worse, e.g. the now-complete lack of approach options and techable choke. I feel that he's harder to just "gay out," but all the same, is still extremely expoitable, especially in campy MUs.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
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Very few he can do this to. Only characters with abysmal rolls like Little Mac, Pikachu and Bowser. As for the frame advantage on the ground, a neutral tech > jab is a true punish, as far as I know, for characters like Sheik/Mac. If not a punish, Ganon's only recourse is to shield.

As for his solidity, I can't argue that he definitely feels more "general purpose," in that which his he was polished from an hexagon into a square - that is, minor corrections have been made, but his most pronounced flaws remain the same, if not worse, e.g. the now-complete lack of approach options and techable choke. I feel that he's harder to just "gay out," but all the same, is still extremely expoitable, especially in campy MUs.
I haven't gone fill detail in testing what he can do on some vs others.

I do know he can punish a lot of the stuff character can try to do on the ground via tech Roll. His confirmed DACUS is something to also consider in this. That said, customs are going to be very important on him when they are legal. A lot of these moves are going to round him out more into something a lot more solid.

Same thing with Palutena. With customs she vastly improves with JumpGlide and SuperSpeed.

Even without them, I can't really call him the worst character from what I've seen. He's been cleaned up and his kill power sticks out a lot more when people are going to be living a lot higher.

He feels a lot better this time around. He still has issues but I don't think these are as bad this time around.
 

Funkermonster

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Man, it's like we're playing fighting games! I have to guess correctly and then punish!

Also, I balk at the MvC2 comparison. If anything, Melee's closer to 3S in terms of balance (Chun Li at the top, and Makoto, Gouki, Yun, and Ken scrabbling for a pecking order. Everyone else just kinda falls into place otherwise). Show me a fighter where everyone is totally equal, and I'll be impressed.

.

Smooth Criminal
You want to see a Fighter where everyone has a winning chance, eh? Have I got I game for you... :p
Vampire Savior: The Lord of Vampire
I was a player in this tournament too (under the name Funkermonster)

Now this is a balanced fighter (personally my all-time favorite fighter), its still impossible to be perfectly balanced, but isn't exceptionally unbalanced. There is a relatively small gap bewtween the high, mid, and low tier characters and many of the characters aren't too hard to learn. There are very few 8-2 matchups and there are absolutely no 9-1 ones, most of them are close to even. Tiers in this game are only truly relevant on high level play, while in beginner or intermediate levels, you could probably toss all 16 characters into the same giant tier. Heck, even the game's bottom 2 characters have strengths to help keep up with everyone else, and you can still win with them against beginners and intermediates. Pretty impressive, isn't it? I can direct you to a ROM to try it yourself for free if ya want.

To stay on topic though, may I ask why people are looking down at Shulk and Olimar right now? I haven't fought a single Olimar player right now and know little about his changes, and Shulkk personally annoys me fighting him with all that range he has.
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
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I haven't gone fill detail in testing what he can do on some vs others.

I do know he can punish a lot of the stuff character can try to do on the ground via tech Roll. His confirmed DACUS is something to also consider in this. That said, customs are going to be very important on him when they are legal. A lot of these moves are going to round him out more into something a lot more solid.

Same thing with Palutena. With customs she vastly improves with JumpGlide and SuperSpeed.

Even without them, I can't really call him the worst character from what I've seen. He's been cleaned up and his kill power sticks out a lot more when people are going to be living a lot higher.

He feels a lot better this time around. He still has issues but I don't think these are as bad this time around.
His DACUS is most definiely a consideration. That alone could be his glorious ascent. As for customs, as I mentioned somewhere before, they smooth out minor problems, but the only thing thus far that even glances at his greatest weaknesses is the DACUS.

I know it may sound crazy to some, but Ganon's just one of those characters whose power belies his crippling lack of options. Low kill percents sound great, until you're facing someone who knows to just hold shield and tech chokes. Even Ike, a candidate for one of the worst, has rear spacing options, frontal spacing options, and a serviceable grab. I think above all else, Ganon's improvements lie in his ground game. But his ground game is only relevant when people approach, unfortunately. :(

However, I'm willing to entertain the idea that he may not be the actual worst in the game. Until DACUS sees some usage though, I'm definitely fairly planted in my opinion that, regardless of which direction he's gone in, up or down, the movement won't be, in my opinion, meaningful. His DACUS, though... that's some certain hope that we'll see a metagame beyond hard reads.
 
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