Character Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, if Falco is low tier, then this game is disgustingly balanced.

This was my thought. "If this is the worst character in the game, then dang..."

 

[Z'zgashi]

On my personal tier list, I currently have Falco at 10th worst.

Currently, my 'low tier' is:
Charizard, Wii Fit Trainer, Falco, Meta Knight, Samus, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Palutena, Olimar, Ike, Luigi, Zelda

Have tier breaks between Samus/Doc and Oli/Ike atm.

 

[Malcolm Belmont]

Here is a question. Who is the most improved charcter in the game. I would say Ness

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Here is a question. Who is the most improved charcter in the game. I would say Ness

Bowser, bro. Bowser. Is he top tier? No. Is he a good character? Yes. Was he at all good in past smash games? Definitely not.

Honorable mention goes to Captain Falcon.

I feel like you might be fishing for a "Yoshi" answer but to be honest, Yoshi would have been upper mid tier in Brawl if his shield wasn't such trash. Like many low-mid tiers in Brawl, Yoshi had a lot of options but was held back by some stupid mechanic or bad move that shouldn't have existed in the first place. See: Ness, Yoshi, Pokemon Trainer.

A good Yoshi player could be really frustrating to play against until you made him hit R.

A note about Yoshi from some tests last night: his shield breaks SUPER easily. Jesus christ, it's like paper. I guess that's to balance out the fact that you can't poke it.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Here is a question. Who is the most improved charcter in the game. I would say Ness

My vote goes to Sheik. Bouncing Fish is a really useful move, and her Burst Grenade is (situationally) useful too (unlike Chain, which frankly just sucked). On top of that, Fair got buffed, and so did FSmash, and the new engine mechanics work in her favour.

 

[Thinkaman]

Bowser, bro. Bowser. Is he top tier? No. Is he a good character? Yes. Was he at all good in past smash games? Definitely not.

I think Ganon is also a contender along similar logic. He just had so much room to go up from Brawl. I'm really surprised at how many people are sleeping on him too; maybe they just play For Glory?

 

[Tristan_win]

My vote goes to Sheik. Bouncing Fish is a really useful move, and her Burst Grenade is (situationally) useful too (unlike Chain, which frankly just sucked). On top of that, Fair got buffed, and so did FSmash, and the new engine mechanics work in her favour.

Your ********. I disagree, she has nerfs on all of her tilts, ftilt no longer send people into you like it did in brawl, dtilt range was cut by like 1/4, utilt has completely lost it's wonderful first part hitbox. Dsmash first hit box is now behind sheik so it's slow as balls it's range is also less, nair no longer kills, usmash is weaker in general

The only buffs Sheik got were, vanish is stronger, down B is AMAZING and side B is useful especially with customs, fair was made into a better combo starter move, uair can now kill, fsmash is now good. The reason why sheik is even consider to be better is because the game engine allows Sheik to preform better with increase hit stun.

Import Brawl Sheik into smash4 engine and I'll give you 0 to deaths on everyone.

 

[Luco]

While Ness is certainly very good and a total contender for high mid, I feel like his benefits have been a little overhyped. His Fair as a spacing tool has been severaly nerfed and is nowhere near safe on shield. The two biggest buffs to him have been his recovery and the lack of chaingrabs on him, but that's mostly it. His Fair combos a little more as well but in the end I feel like his overall strength is in his Nair in terms of close-rang fighting.... which for the most part has stayed relatively the same.


Now don't get me wrong, I think he's a fantastic character atm; it's just I feel characters such as Yoshi, Bowser and Link have been buffed far more than him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Ganon is also a contender along similar logic. He just had so much room to go up from Brawl. I'm really surprised at how many people are sleeping on him too; maybe they just play For Glory?

Until we discover just how good his DACUS is, Ganon is still probably the worst character in the game overall on default settings. And he hasn't been doing terrible in tournament from what little I've seen and heard. I know there's some tournament footage of him being played in Japan winning sets and getting a fair shot at other high tiers (before being defeated).

He's, as EL put it, surprisingly effective. In spite of his clearly limited neutral game, the general system and balance changes have clearly done a lot of work for him and made him not a lost cause.

Ganon's pretty serious business in a game where nobody gimps or autocombos you for 50 guaranteed damage. Like, it's impressive generally speaking how much Ganondorf is assisted by near-universal damage nerfs to most of the cast besides him. It's like you get hit 6 times, then you land two hits as Ganon and you're about even. The grappler comebacks seem real on this character.

Yeah like, I think in general, we probably have to give Namco credit for their superior insight on balance. I'm assuming a lot of Namco fighting games follow similar game flow. I recall in something like JJBA:ASB, characters do very low individual damage per hit, and universal defensive options are both strong yet easily checked on a read. And I recall the overall balance in that game being pretty good.

 

[AvariceX]

Not ready to decide for sure what tiers the characters are in (let's be real we're not even playing on real controllers yet) but early impressions:

Definitely Strong:

Probably Strong:

Probably Weak:

Who knows: the rest

 

[Terotrous]

I don't think Samus is that weak. Screw Attack being a kill move is a pretty huge buff, and it's active enough to eat airdodges so there's a lot of situations where you can land it.


Also, the most improved character is definitely Bowser. There's like not even any room for debate about it. It makes me salty to see how much he got improved and how comparatively little Dedede, DK, and Ganon got (in fact, Dedede seems to have gotten a bunch of nerfs instead!)

 

[Shaya]

Donkey Kong isn't bad in this game, just his weaknesses in certain characters (you know, the small, campy, zoners with big hitboxes) are still always going to beat him or give him a good run for his money. At the very least this game there's nothing as horrendous as tornado, dedede, falco or olimar for him. He has a nasty up-b custom special, and can control a lot of space, I think he'll be a character with generally spiked match ups compared to most other characters; I really don't see how most medium mobility or worse melee range characters have any chance against DK at all realistically.

Samus I feel is pretty ok, if not strong. Tether grabs are pretty good in this game, best seen in the series. She has a slew of kill moves available to her this game, which was her curse in Brawl. While her projectile 'camping' isn't as capable, nearly everything else about her feels buffed for me.

 

[Terotrous]

Donkey Kong isn't bad in this game, just his weaknesses in certain characters (you know, the small, campy, zoners with big hitboxes) are still always going to beat him or give him a good run for his money. At the very least this game there's nothing as horrendous as dedede, falco or olimar for him.

I dunno. While there are perhaps fewer characters whose camping is as ludicrous as those three from Brawl, I feel like most other character's projectiles got a bit better. Yoshi's eggs, for example, are a lot better than Brawl. So are Lucario's Aura Sphere, Shiek's Needles, and all of Link's stuff. Some of the new characters have pretty powerful zoning tools, too, most notably Pac-Man, Villager and Mii Gunner.

I think what annoys me most about DK is that he just barely changed at all, except for his new Dash Attack which seems like it's probably worse than his old one (at least it was fairly quick). Granted, I do think he fared better than Dedede, who actually lost a lot of good moves (I know, let's make Fair and Bair the same move, because jumping forward or backward totally isn't a thing in this game!)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Its all about the whirlwind up b with dk.

**** is legit

 

[Shaya]

Well, unlike Brawl, I believe you can easily clank with eggs in smash 4 (at least I'm pretty sure I've been able to kill them with Marth forward air, and I don't see it explode like it did in Brawl, which was obnoxious as ****).

Aerial mechanic and rebalances favoured DK a lot. Moves with basically the same landing lag they did in Brawl in a game where nearly everyone else good got theirs doubled.
Back air is huge, like super super super super super huge, and seems to actually have a proper auto cancel to it this game.

Aren't DK's moves all strong enough to beat/knock away Pac's hydrant? Isn't Up B out of shield for his dash attack a guaranteed thing (could honestly be wrong)?
DK losing to sheik seems pretty normal. A character like DK is not the type of match up Lucario enjoyed in Brawl; although Lucario was probably buffed "more", so who knows.

Have you seen his custom moves though? That's where the magics at

Its all about the whirlwind up b with dk.

**** is legit

****ing beaten. GRRR.

 

[Terotrous]

Well, unlike Brawl, I believe you can easily clank with eggs in smash 4 (at least I'm pretty sure I've been able to kill them with Marth forward air, and I don't see it explode like it did in Brawl, which was obnoxious as ****)

I want to say they still explode but I'd have to test it later. Marth might well just be able to stay out of the range of the explosion with disjoints.

Aerial mechanic and rebalances favoured DK a lot. Moves with basically the same landing lag they did in Brawl in a game where nearly everyone else good got theirs doubled.
Back air is huge, like super super super super super huge, and seems to actually have a proper auto cancel to it this game.

Bair has always been a pretty great move, though I wasn't aware of it autocancelling. We really need to get a list going of everything that autocancels.

Aren't DK's moves all strong enough to beat/knock away Pac's hydrant? Isn't Up B out of shield for his dash attack a guaranteed thing (could honestly be wrong)?

Pac Man's lockdown is all about is fruit rather than his hydrant. A lot of his fruits just put an active hitbox out there for ages while Pac-Man is free to move, attack, grab, whatever, allowing him to be more safe and cover people's options. Also, the Galaga was just made for abusing people who have big hurtboxes.

Have you seen his custom moves though? That's where the magics at

His customs do definitely look pretty legit, it's just a shame that Sakurai banned them from use online and as such most tournaments probably won't allow them either.

I kind of hope that the Wii U version makes custom moves more accessible than they are in the 3DS version.

 

[Shaya]

His customs do definitely look pretty legit, it's just a shame that Sakurai banned them from use online and as such most tournaments probably won't allow them either.

I kind of hope that the Wii U version makes custom moves more accessible than they are in the 3DS version.

Custom moves are probably most accessible on the 3DS version.
Only requires the player themselves to have them.

Most tournaments I'm aware of running in the West are running customs legal. Most of the currently perceived top tiers don't really get anything out of their customs, hence why you aren't seeing much of them =)

 

[Terotrous]

Custom moves are probably most accessible on the 3DS version.
Only requires the player themselves to have them.

The bigger problem is that you have to go through and set up a custom character, while also giving them no equipment. It would be nice if you could just input a 4 digit code or something and get a no-equipment character with those customs or something.

I'd also like to have the Mii characters playable online using the same method. They should just allow a default Mii to be used (likely the same one they show in the promotional art).

Most tournaments I'm aware of running in the West are running customs legal. Most of the currently perceived top tiers don't really get anything out of their customs, hence why you aren't seeing much of them =)

I don't believe they're currently legal at Shockwave, which is one of the most prominent Smash 4 3DS Weeklies that I'm aware of. They were legal at the Nintendo Smash 3DS Tournament that ran this weekend, but they also allowed custom equip and all stages legal so it was pretty jokey.

 

[Link4Life!]

Ok.. I've pretty much read all the pages now.

So, I've been maining link lately. A lot of people have said that ToonLink outclasses him, but I don't see it. I'm not the most technical player, so I don't know about all the combos etc, But any ToonLink I face seems to lose?

Another point people seem to make is that Link just doesn't end up being good. Although, using only link, i've maintained quite a high win-loss ratio, although this might be luck.

Can anyone give an indepth explanation to why he's not good/good/combos?

Edit - Played a few matches against shulk, came out 3-1.

 

[Terotrous]

It seems like a lot of Link play is going to revolve around the trick where he can cancel landing lag using Down B if he has a bomb out. Toon Link just seems to get much more out of this than Link does.

 

[Link4Life!]

You can cancel landing lag? That's pretty sweet if you ask me.

However, even without knowing those tricks, i've been able to make some good KO's with his USmash, SideSmash and Dash Attacks. They're all nicely made and have decent range, and i've never had a completely "Fail" moment with them.

 

[Terotrous]

You can cancel landing lag? That's pretty sweet if you ask me.

However, even without knowing those tricks, i've been able to make some good KO's with his USmash, SideSmash and Dash Attacks. They're all nicely made and have decent range, and i've never had a completely "Fail" moment with them.

Take a look at this video, this is basically a clinic on how that trick works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kH1_AQusnk

I think the fact that Toon Link is faster simply allows him to get more followups after landing the bomb.

 

[Link4Life!]

So you throw the bomb when you land? That's actually a nice trick, I assume it works with both links.

And yeah, He is much faster. However, Using my arrows/WBoomerang seems to help me follow up against campers or move into a dash combo, which seems to work nicely even against the bigger ranged characters.

 

[Terotrous]

So you throw the bomb when you land? That's actually a nice trick, I assume it works with both links.

Yeah, it works for Link and Peach too. I can't think of much that Peach could do with it though.

 

[Carrill]

Yeah, it works for Link and Peach too. I can't think of much that Peach could do with it though.

Peach can perform all her aerial attacks while floating even if she's holding an item. It would allow her to use a move with heavy landing lag like Fair and cancel it with the turnip.

 

[Terotrous]

Peach can perform all her aerial attacks while floating even if she's holding an item. It would allow her to use a move with heavy landing lag like Fair and cancel it with the turnip.

Interesting. There's also some kind of item holding trick that allows Link to use his Zair that I have to figure out, when I try it I just drop the bomb.

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

Little Mac is probably going to be the most polarizing character. Beginners will see him as crazy overpowered but competitive players will think he sucks. He's kind of like the Ike of Smash 4, no?

Anyway, I was impressed with Shulk when I played. He seemed to be balanced and pretty sick overall. But I'm kind of a beginner myself so that's just me.

 

[mimgrim]

Little Mac is probably going to be the most polarizing character. Beginners will see him as crazy overpowered but competitive players will think he sucks. He's kind of like the Ike of Smash 4, no?

Not really. Mac is legitimately good, and most competitive players realize this. You don't simply have the best footsies in the game and end up being bad.

 

[Terotrous]

Little Mac is probably going to be the most polarizing character. Beginners will see him as crazy overpowered but competitive players will think he sucks. He's kind of like the Ike of Smash 4, no?

Bwett has been making him look pretty damn legit at Shockwave, and that's with other stages being allowed and everything.


Honestly, I think the reason he looks so crazily overpowered is because he really is crazily overpowered. His ground options are the best in the game, bar none. He's ridiculously fast and strong, has tons of armor, and an OHKO move that he can combo into. Sure, he sucks in the air, but for the most part you can just choose not to go to the air, while the opponent usually can't choose to never come back down to the ground. The only thing holding him somewhat in check is the fact that he's fairly easy to gimp, but he also kills you so early that I'm not convinced it's a serious weakness (see also Fox in Melee / PM).

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

Not really. Mac is legitimately good, and most competitive players realize this. You don't simply have the best footsies in the game and end up being bad.

I said I was a beginner

Anyway, I'm glad that Mac is seen as legit. He is definitely one of those characters that requires me to use Kirby just to get away from him.

BTW, I knew he was going to be overpowered from the second that he was introduced. I don't believe that the producers didn't know he was overpowered so I don't know why they didn't nerf him.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

BTW, I knew he was going to be overpowered from the second that he was introduced. I don't believe that the producers didn't know he was overpowered so I don't know why they didn't nerf him.

...probably because Mac isn't actually overpowered. He is, as you said, polarizing at best. A great character but with a lot of horrendous weaknesses. A good ground game will only carry you so far. Wait 'til people start powershielding some of his nonsense more consistently.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

...probably because Mac isn't actually overpowered. He is, as you said, polarizing at best. A great character but with a lot of horrendous weaknesses. A good ground game will only carry you so far. Wait 'til people start powershielding some of his nonsense more consistently.

Smooth Criminal

I dunno, I think a lot of people are basing their opinions off bad Little Macs online. "Sure, he's got super strong options, but I can just wait for him to do something dumb and then punish". But what if he doesn't do something dumb?

Little Mac doesn't just have a lot of online wins right now, he also has among the most tournament wins, too, and just generally looks real strong in most matchups. I can't see any solid argument to be made that he is "obviously not top tier". Maybe he will prove not to be top tier eventually, but right now there's certainly a fair bit to suggest that he is.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

We'll see, but I'm definitely in the camp that says Mac isn't as potent as people are making him out to be. Like I said, once people start powershielding his nonsense and go from there, counterpoking or whatever, I think Mac'll start to diminish in effectiveness.

Smooth Criminal

 

[A2ZOMG]

We'll see, but I'm definitely in the camp that says Mac isn't as potent as people are making him out to be. Like I said, once people start powershielding his nonsense and go from there, counterpoking or whatever, I think Mac'll start to diminish in effectiveness.

Smooth Criminal

But...half the reason Mac is so good is because he has pokes that aren't easily stopped by powershielding. F-tilt and D-tilt are not easy to powershield punish, much less simply powershield in the first place.

Plus when he has KO punch, which so happens to be unblockable, shielding against him absolutely isn't safe.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Power shielding little Mac? I play shulk.
If Im not grabbing him in speed I just Forward counter. The power of that thing is absurd. Shielding Mac doesn't work well (for me) because the start-up of my moves vs his lack of end-lag and start-up by comparison don't work in my favor. Forward Counter on Shulk makes anyone who hits hard funny. Shield Monado can eat the K.O punch.

Speaking of Shulk. His customs feel a bit lacking. Extreme is rather risky, Decisive makes Monado-Art canceling infrequent and impractical. Back-slash is whatever. Advancing Air slash has potential otherwise you stick to standard. Dash doesn't seem very valuable, but Power vision might be polarizing. You tell me I have a strong as hell counter, and I can jack it up even further despite my Forward Counter already removing multiple K.O moves from the table unless they want to risk giving sub 50% kills from their uncharged smashes, charged projectiles or noteworthy specials? Sounds promising to me.

 

[Terotrous]

We'll see, but I'm definitely in the camp that says Mac isn't as potent as people are making him out to be. Like I said, once people start powershielding his nonsense and go from there, counterpoking or whatever, I think Mac'll start to diminish in effectiveness.

The thing is that Mac's stuff is generally faster than anyone else's, so he'll be the safest against Powershield of anyone. I'm pretty sure in particular that his Ftilt is completely safe on shield, even if you powershield, because it just recovers so absurdly fast.

I'm going to make the opposite prediction, that Little Mac will be this game's Metaknight, who will have to be banned (or patched) eventually for the game to have any legitimacy. Sure, there's nowhere near enough evidence to support that right now, but from the way he forces every character to play his game rather than their own I just really get that impression from him.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

A lot of characters force you to "play their game" and aren't overpowered (see Falco and Jiggs in Melee). I don't think Mac is anywhere near on the level of MK where he breaks the game in half just by existing. Not now, not ever. He has a lot of good traits, but he's not obscenely broken.

But...half the reason Mac is so good is because he has pokes that aren't easily stopped by powershielding. F-tilt and D-tilt are not easy to powershield punish, much less simply powershield in the first place.

It's kind of easy to powershield in this game, iirc. Kinda like Brawl. And for those tilts, especially d-tilt, he's gotta be pretty damn close to you. That's...a free boost grab to whatever I want. I kinda disagree with this.

Plus when he has KO punch, which so happens to be unblockable, shielding against him absolutely isn't safe.

That, on the other hand, I didn't know about. Yikes.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

A lot of characters force you to "play their game" and aren't overpowered (see Falco and Jiggs in Melee). I don't think Mac is anywhere near on the level of MK where he breaks the game in half just by existing. Not now, not ever.

Uhh, Falco and Jiggs totally are overpowered in Melee. There's a reason like half the cast is unusable in that game. The only reason why these characters didn't get banned is because there's a few characters who are equally busted, if there was only one they would have been banned.

It's kind of easy to powershield in this game, iirc. Kinda like Brawl. And for those tilts, especially d-tilt, he's gotta be pretty damn close to you. That's...a free boost grab to whatever I want. I kinda disagree with this.

He's super super fast, though, so it's not hard for him to get close to you. Also, if you try to challenge him when he comes in, he can just FSmash through your attack.

 

[PolarPanda]

A lot of characters force you to "play their game" and aren't overpowered (see Falco and Jiggs in Melee). I don't think Mac is anywhere near on the level of MK where he breaks the game in half just by existing. Not now, not ever. He has a lot of good traits, but he's not obscenely broken.



It's kind of easy to powershield in this game, iirc. Kinda like Brawl. And for those tilts, especially d-tilt, he's gotta be pretty damn close to you. That's...a free boost grab to whatever I want. I kinda disagree with this.



That, on the other hand, I didn't know about. Yikes.

Smooth Criminal

Whenever I use ZSS against Lil Mac, he gets wrecked quite easily if not played right. Why? Well, her grab range negates a lot of his potential, and she can combo him into the air and juggle him if you can punish his counter. Staying near the ledge with that long ranged grab into fair or uair combos off stage decimate most lil mac's i've come across on for glory.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Uhh, Falco and Jiggs totally are overpowered in Melee. There's a reason like half the cast is unusable in that game. The only reason why these characters didn't get banned is because there's a few characters who are equally busted, if there was only one they would have been banned.

You might want to skim through the results of Melee tourneys over the past couple of years. The results may actually surprise you.

(Spoiler: There are eleven other characters you're overlooking in the viability department, making about thirteen in total that are played commonly in tourney and do well. You ask me, that's a pretty good spread.)

Not to mention...that's not how bans work. Not entirely. A good kit and a good match-up spread does not equal an automatic ban.

He's super super fast, though, so it's not hard for him to get close to you. Also, if you try to challenge him when he comes in, he can just FSmash through your attack.

And FSmash isn't telegraphed? Or able to be shielded?

Smooth Criminal