Character Competitive Impressions

[Nat Goméz]

Little Mac actually has one best gimp tools, his nair (the one that doesn't kill even in 999%) turns out to be good, can drag the opponents down offstage and then he can do a footstool jump to save himself, it's pretty neat. It doesn't work with people with fast up b's though.

Here some short videos that shows how it works:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?list=F2E...91&v=Ggf3vv4-5MI&hl=es&gl=US&client=mv-google

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J0TD6q..._YMa&client=mv-google&gl=US&hl=es

http://m.youtube.com/watch?list=F2E...91&v=6B_n94Bp3Xc&hl=es&gl=US&client=mv-google

 

[The Real Gamer]

Fox...getting gimped?

You high man? SideB doesn't put him in freefall anymore, and Shine Stalling is still good for mixing up recovery options. If you're getting gimped as Fox, you did something terribly wrong. Fox's recovery in both Melee and Brawl has been one of the most reliable and solid recoveries in the game. That much hasn't changed in Smash 4 either, in fact his recovery even got better.

It's also worth noting that Yoshi's recovery doesn't benefit from the ledge mechanics, making him noticeably more vulnerable on the ledge than a lot of characters when he actually has to worry about edge trapping. Fox has superior options for getting up from the ledge safely in contrast.

As Zard I've easily gimped more spacies than any other character so I guess I must have been high... flamethrower shuts down their side b to drag them beneath the stage and after that it's gg. If they recover high it usually leads to a free punish. I could literally make a short montage of me throwing Fox/Falco offstage at low percent, dragging their side b down with flamethrower, and then stomping the firefox.

This is character specific though so I guess I should have clarified.

 

[an1bal]

Little Mac actually has one best gimp tools, his nair (the one that doesn't kill even in 999%) turns out to be good, can drag the opponents down offstage and then he can do a footstool jump to save himself, it's pretty neat. It doesn't work with people with fast up b's though.

Here some short videos that shows how it works:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?list=F2E...91&v=Ggf3vv4-5MI&hl=es&gl=US&client=mv-google

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J0TD6q..._YMa&client=mv-google&gl=US&hl=es

http://m.youtube.com/watch?list=F2E...91&v=6B_n94Bp3Xc&hl=es&gl=US&client=mv-google

Huh, I wonder if Megaman can rush cancel that

 

[A2ZOMG]

Little Mac actually has one best gimp tools, his nair (the one that doesn't kill even in 999%) turns out to be good, can drag the opponents down offstage and then he can do a footstool jump to save himself, it's pretty neat. It doesn't work with people with fast up b's though.

Here some short videos that shows how it works:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?list=F2E...91&v=Ggf3vv4-5MI&hl=es&gl=US&client=mv-google

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J0TD6q..._YMa&client=mv-google&gl=US&hl=es

http://m.youtube.com/watch?list=F2E...91&v=6B_n94Bp3Xc&hl=es&gl=US&client=mv-google

It's like when Omni made that discovery with MK's U-throw against Snake Grenade camping. This tech needs to be named after him again.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Lucina is nimbler

Not this **** again. They have the same movement data. The only physical difference is that Marth has slightly better vertical reach, as he's taller.

Not only is she lighter

Again, no.

Lucina can harness the custom moves a lot better than Marth can.

Nope. Loadouts should be the same for both. Lucina may "lose" less by switching to Dashing Assault over Shield Breaker since Marth's tippered SB is this close to a free shield break, but he has inherently superior conversions because of his tipper and DA is simply that good for both characters regardless. Both should use Dolphin Jump, both should use Dancing Blade, and the jury seems to still be out on Counter vs Iai Counter (I currently favor the default).

You're correct in that Lucina's sword zones less effectively than Marth's due to lack of a tipper, but you have several misconceptions about other differences/lack thereof between the two and you neglected one other notable detail - Lucina's dair only tippers on the spike hitbox, which is exclusively beneath their feet now rather than on the tip throughout the entire arc. Marth tippers throughout the entire swing, and while the angles on the other tipper hitboxes are less favorable than a true spike it's still better than popping them up like Lucina's will.

 

[Signia]

Not this **** again. They have the same movement data. The only physical difference is that Marth has slightly better vertical reach, as he's taller.


Again, no.


Nope. Loadouts should be the same for both. Lucina may "lose" less by switching to Dashing Assault over Shield Breaker since Marth's tippered SB is this close to a free shield break, but he has inherently superior conversions because of his tipper and DA is simply that good for both characters regardless. Both should use Dolphin Jump, both should use Dancing Blade, and the jury seems to still be out on Counter vs Iai Counter (I currently favor the default).

You're correct in that Lucina's sword zones less effectively than Marth's due to lack of a tipper, but you have several misconceptions about other differences/lack thereof between the two and you neglected one other notable detail - Lucina's dair only tippers on the spike hitbox, which is exclusively beneath their feet now rather than on the tip throughout the entire arc. Marth tippers throughout the entire swing, and while the angles on the other tipper hitboxes are less favorable than a true spike it's still better than popping them up like Lucina's will.

Questions:

Are Lucina's attacks any faster?

Doesn't Dolphin Jump not have a hitbox? Why give up a reliable close range kill move at later percents? Also, normal Up-B escapes jab combos.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Are Lucina's attacks any faster?

As far as I can discern they're the same in terms of frame data, and I currently play them interchangeably. Shaya has indicated this seems to be the case as well iirc.

Doesn't Dolphin Jump not have a hitbox? Why give up a reliable close range kill move at later percents?

Two reasons. One, the range on the initial hit is ass now - only just beyond that of our grab. This gives it limited appeal as an OoS or kill option because one of you has to overextend if it's going to hit. Two, Dolphin Jump lets you go deep offstage. You can literally go down to the bottom corner for gimps and still make it back. It also gives him stellar recovery when knocked off, particularly in combination with Dashing Assault.

 

[Terotrous]

Zelda is like...1000x better in this game than she was previously, and easily mid tier.

Yeah, no way.

Smashes got weaker and have worse hitboxes.
Tilts got worse hitboxes.
Uair lost power.
Fair and Bair seem to have a smaller sweetspot.


UpB is a buff, but it's still not that amazing. It's not a Mewtwo teleport, she can't act out of it and you can just shield it and punish when she reappears if she tries to use it in neutral.

 

[PKNintendo]

I'm curious, what does everyone/A2ZOMG think about Wario?

I've dabbled with him, and he seems stupid strong. He's heavy, but he's got a small frame, and he's fairly agile. His recovery is still magnificent, which in turn makes him difficult to KO. His aerial mobility lets him use retreating short hop fairs/bairs, so doesn't have to commit to anything. He seems like a very safe, very good character. His neutral B is an aerial command grab with a lingering hitbox, which can punish shield-happy opponents. Solid edgeguarder too.

Oh, and the Wario Waft is the absolutely best punish KO move in the entire game.

 

[TTTTTsd]

"Everyone/A2ZOMG" I'm sorry I thought that was really quirky.

Anyways, Wario feels okay here. One thing that was nerfed was SH Dair, it doesn't autocancel anymore and I guess that's cause they thought that with the SDI nerf it'd be too much? Bair autocancels. Bike got buffed. I think his air speed is a little toned down from Brawl too.

Wario still has his problems from Brawl to some extent but he's alright, not one of the best in the game but certainly mid tier if not higher IMO. He's still Wario.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, no way.

Smashes got weaker and have worse hitboxes.
Tilts got worse hitboxes.
Uair lost power.
Fair and Bair seem to have a smaller sweetspot.


UpB is a buff, but it's still not that amazing. It's not a Mewtwo teleport, she can't act out of it and you can just shield it and punish when she reappears if she tries to use it in neutral.

F-smash is basically the same, except SDI is worse in this game. It's still strong, and completely safe on shield.

U-smash is worse out of shield, but that barely matters. You're mostly land trapping and anti-airing with it, which it's still good for.

D-smash does mostly suck and is Zelda's worst move in this game.

F-tilt looks about the same, so does D-tilt. D-tilt still has GREAT range and speed and sets up combos. Zelda's footsies are GOOD in this game. You are also drastically underrating Zelda's Jab. It's easily a top 5 Jab. Good range, fast startup, almost no ending lag, and starts combos. VERY good tool in footsies. Zelda still also has her very strong DA and good grab reward (combined with VIABLE grab) to be a threat against defensive opponents.

U-air lost power? It's still a stronger vertical KO move than most other U-airs. It's not even a move you get to use that often anyway.

I'm not believing you that F-air and B-air have smaller sweetspots. I'm pretty sure you don't have data to prove this, and I'm seeing enough videos of Zelda players hitting F-air/B-air just fine when it matters.

Okay, if you're going to disregard how amazing Zelda Up-B is in this game, you're crazy. Firstoff, having a teleport in this game means you get out of juggle traps and edge traps for free in a game where traps into KO moves is basically the meta. Watch your opponent do a move or jump, then teleport, and you're back in neutral. Almost none of the standard land and edge traps actually work on Zelda simply because she has a teleport, keeping in mind that Zelda actually does have above average air mobility even without her teleport. Zelda in this game is one of the best characters at getting back into Neutral. That is actually a HUGE advantage.

Your opponent shouldn't be shielding this move except in situations where you might Up-B towards them when you are not at a KO percent simply to figure out their habits and what things they don't respect. More important is that Zelda Up-B is one of the best land trap tools in the game. It kills early, and can be used to control a HUGE amount of space at massive range. As I stated, if Zelda knows where you are landing and you're at 100%, you are DEAD. Zelda's gameplan in short actually works in this game.

Zelda in this game has very viable footsies meaning she CAN approach, and she hits harder than most characters, and is also hard to trap and kill. Her gameplan unlike in other games actually is very complete and doesn't die to flowchart defense. Like in Brawl, you can edgecamp against Zelda, or DI away from her and airdodge to prevent her from killing you. In melee, you basically rush her down, edgehog, and she dies. Zelda has NONE of those problems in this game. She still suffers against highly mobile characters, but having better footsies in this game and a viable grab means she can actually make plays midrange in this game unlike before.

I'm curious, what does everyone/A2ZOMG think about Wario?

I've dabbled with him, and he seems stupid strong. He's heavy, but he's got a small frame, and he's fairly agile. His recovery is still magnificent, which in turn makes him difficult to KO. His aerial mobility lets him use retreating short hop fairs/bairs, so doesn't have to commit to anything. He seems like a very safe, very good character. His neutral B is an aerial command grab with a lingering hitbox, which can punish shield-happy opponents. Solid edgeguarder too.

Oh, and the Wario Waft is the absolutely best punish KO move in the entire game.

Same character...seriously.

They slightly nerfed some of his aerials and made his ground moves a little better. And he still gets owned by grab releases.

Oh also, Tires are no longer projectiles. And no grab armor in this game is a direct nerf to Neutral B, making it easier to beat out.

 

[PKNintendo]

"Everyone/A2ZOMG" I'm sorry I thought that was really quirky.

Anyways, Wario feels okay here. One thing that was nerfed was SH Dair, it doesn't autocancel anymore and I guess that's cause they thought that with the SDI nerf it'd be too much? Bair autocancels. Bike got buffed. I think his air speed is a little toned down from Brawl too.

Wario still has his problems from Brawl to some extent but he's alright, not one of the best in the game but certainly mid tier if not higher IMO. He's still Wario.

"Having the same problems as Brawl" sounds like a stretch. For starters, Metaknight was nerfed. That alone, makes him an infinitely more viable character. He still suffers from grab releases, but they're nowhere near as crippling as before (only 2 characters of note have KO options against him; Rosalina and Little Mac).

But the most important thing, I think, is that he exists in a game where KOing is inherently difficult. He's not going to die. I suppose characters with more long range are troubling, but it's not ruinous. Oh and the waft is stupid good.

Seriously, it's absurd. (Max charge waft can KO at 50 near the edge.)

Totally absurd.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wario's bike got nerfed too, forgot to mention you can't use the wheels and pieces as easy (if at all anymore IIRC). He CAN kill with Wheelie but it's super situational.

I don't think he'll be super duper better but he's still solid. His only problem in Brawl was not Meta Knight, he still has weird range, his recovery is still bad if his bike is unaccounted for, and Waft killing like that is how it should be given it'll only ever happen once in a match, although if 2 stocks become the standard that could be more significant but since that's not confirmed yet I'll leave that up in the air.

His FSmash is a lot worse in this game too. Slower, loss of launch resistance and since his Brawl FSmash had transcendent priority, this one doesn't. Meaning it's a bit harder to kill with him outside of Waft.

 

[iVoltage]

I'm sorry if its been posted before I haven't read the rest of the thread. With that said how is lucario in this game? He seems to have been buffed but I have played him one time in the entire week I've had the game. All i know is that the aura is crazy now, like they went a bit overboard with his recovery haha.

 

[andalsoandy]

So tier lists are allowed now? Okay, I guess I'll give my input on what I've seen/played so far.

(characters within tiers in no particular order)

S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:

Feel free to disagree. This is just my opinion on the short time I've owned the game.

THOUGHTS ON CERTAIN CHARACTERS:
- Basically a Melee character in Smash 4. Quick as hell and can combo like crazy. Has a counter, projectile and teleport move. Definitely top tier.
- Aura mechanic was buffed so much it should count as a nerf towards every other character.
- Great projectiles, long ranged smash attacks and a decent number of kill moves.
- Quick and hard hitting is all I have to say.
- I really used to think he would be waaay too restricted in his field of play (ground game) but after learning of this game's emphasis on ground game, it's going to be hard to find a proper way to approach this guy. A good Mac player won't let people approach him.
- Sick aerial combos and buffed Rest brings her weird playstyle back from Melee.
- So much range and kill power. I'm surprised people don't rank him higher.
- Insane buffs to every move as well as great customs. Almost feels like P:M Ness.

ok I'm tired so I'm gonna go now.

 

[PK Gaming]

Robin is most certainly not S-tier, lol

 

[Deathcarter]

Dude, Rosalina is Top 5 easily. How did you come to the conclusion she was high-mid?!

 

[PKNintendo]

Wario's bike got nerfed too, forgot to mention you can't use the wheels and pieces as easy (if at all anymore IIRC). He CAN kill with Wheelie but it's super situational.

I don't think he'll be super duper better but he's still solid. His only problem in Brawl was not Meta Knight, he still has weird range, his recovery is still bad if his bike is unaccounted for, and Waft killing like that is how it should be given it'll only ever happen once in a match, although if 2 stocks become the standard that could be more significant but since that's not confirmed yet I'll leave that up in the air.

His FSmash is a lot worse in this game too. Slower, loss of launch resistance and since his Brawl FSmash had transcendent priority, this one doesn't. Meaning it's a bit harder to kill with him outside of Waft.

I honestly prefer the new bike to his old one, and his new bite is tremendous.

His recovery isn't an issue; his bike is nearly always accounted for (Wario regains it much faster now) and his Up B's vertical was buffed. I disagree with the assertion that waft is only killing once per match; it charges at a rate of about 1:50 seconds for the max charge, which isn't that significant given that 3 stock matches typically run for 4-5 minutes. (Possibly even more with Wario; he'll undoubtly extend the time for it). He can also use the Half-charged waft as well, which reliably kills near the edge at 80-100%.

I will concede that his Fsmash way worse, though to its credit it kills at stupid low %.

 

[ffdgh]

Probably the bias speaking but Peach should be B or B+ lol.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh yes, Wario's grab game is worse now thanks to chaingrabbing being gone (doubt this is really big but it still applies). I fail to see how this man is OP, and his FSmash is pretty garbage unless you make an amazing read because that is telegraphed like hell.

 

[PKNintendo]

OP is not a word I would use to describe him, but I think he's solidly in high tier. His grab game isn't that much worse off (in fact, it's one of the better ones, imo). Did you forget about Roll cancelling? It improves his grab range dramatically. Sure, it doesn't reach the same heights of BS like in Brawl, but it didn't need to.

The damage nerf on the backthrow (previously forward) throw is unfortunate.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dair nerf is also unfortunate as it was a really good SH Drill Wario could use to reel in the damage. I agree on his placement but he's basically the same character for better or for worse. Just a few new things. God his FSmash is cool looking but it sucks tho, aaaaaaaaaaa.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

On default settings, Toon Link has superior Bombs, better mobility, better aerials, a better recovery, and better throws. Plus his floaty physics make him better at winning spam wars than Link.

Both are pretty terrible at setting up KOs. Link does slightly better securing KOs due to Jab confirms, but he doesn't actually kill much earlier than TL.

I dont believe TL's bomb jumps like Link.
Link throws his bomb further with more knockback.
Link has faster recovery on his aerials.
Z-aerial has longer range with Link, I assume they have the same sweetspots. Both auto-cancel.
Links edgeguarding should be stronger due to Gale being better
Links dtilt has noteably more kill potential.
His dash attack is more potent.
Tlinks B-air kills but Links doesnt.
TL should be better in air yes, but pretty much any direction Link farts on the ground has better KO potential. Gales improvement also aids his ground game further.

 

[-Mars-]

Wario's bike got nerfed too, forgot to mention you can't use the wheels and pieces as easy (if at all anymore IIRC). He CAN kill with Wheelie but it's super situational.

I don't think he'll be super duper better but he's still solid. His only problem in Brawl was not Meta Knight, he still has weird range, his recovery is still bad if his bike is unaccounted for, and Waft killing like that is how it should be given it'll only ever happen once in a match, although if 2 stocks become the standard that could be more significant but since that's not confirmed yet I'll leave that up in the air.

His FSmash is a lot worse in this game too. Slower, loss of launch resistance and since his Brawl FSmash had transcendent priority, this one doesn't. Meaning it's a bit harder to kill with him outside of Waft.

Brawl fsmash did not have transcendent priority, it had super armor.

 

[TTTTTsd]

My bad. I botch a lot so it's something I get used to seeing, but thank you for the correction. Still, sucks that he doesn't have that on his new FSmash, makes it a bit (actually, a LOT) less useful.

 

[-Mars-]

Yea and uair power was weakened so overall hes a lot less scary with fsmash, uair, dair, and his mobility all worse.

Still solid though plus he got 2 awesome new colors

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah Wario is definitely still Wario. I look forward to seeing the crazy new bike tech too (wheelie killing is the most roadster thing ever)

 

[Z'zgashi]

Wario to me just feels like Brawl Wario with minor changes and a new engine that benefits him more since now its more follow up/offstage centric which are both things Wario is fantastic at.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dont believe TL's bomb jumps like Link. Link throws his bomb further, it has better knock-back as well.Link has faster recovery on his aerials. Links edgeguarding should be stronger. His dash is more potent.

Neither of their Bombs are kill moves, so Link's Bombs having more knockback doesn't really mean much outside of the situational Bomb Jump (keeping in mind TL's Up-B is better for recovery), when the superior hitbox and setups from TL's Bombs is actually a real advantage.

Also, it doesn't mean much that Link's aerials have lower ending lag when TL has more reliable autocancels due to floaty physics, and his aerials in general have more practical hitboxes.

Link has slightly better ground moves than TL, but TL is almost certainly the more well-rounded and stronger character overall.

 

[Shaya]

So tier lists are allowed now?

No, tier lists really are not allowed. However, if you are providing significant amount of information/reason behind your opinions I'll likely let it slide (or if its more like an end note and you make it blatantly obvious its just that).

The moment you just freely make a list of opinions without any backing, is the moment you get the replies of

"

Robin is most certainly not S-tier, lol

Dude, Rosalina is Top 5 easily. How did you come to the conclusion she was high-mid?!

Which I honestly want to infract all of them.
But I know I did let that one person post a "full list" without this message, but I didn't do anything about it because people weren't replying to it like the above two quotes. And I was so so so happy people didn't take the opportunity to go "MY OPINION > YOUR OPINION" from it was essentially why I didn't bother.
Soooo what does this all mean.

Discussing self-opinionated tier lists in this thread is against the rules. Do me a favour and delete it or heavily revise and justify verbosely every reason for your ideas.

 

[PK Gaming]

I should have been more constructive in my response, my apologies. Robin's a pretty good character, but several flaws (abusable recovery, awful run speed, limited options against enemes directly below him and slow grab) keep him out of top tier (and high tier, in my opinion).

andalsoandy, tackling a tier list at this point in time seems like an extremely bad idea. Getting accurate data on 40+ characters in such a short period of time is... well impossible. It's better to just give your impression on characters, rather than to tier them.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Neither of their Bombs are kill moves, so Link's Bombs having more knockback doesn't really mean much outside of the situational Bomb Jump (keeping in mind TL's Up-B is better for recovery), when the superior hitbox and setups from TL's Bombs is actually a real advantage.

Also, it doesn't mean much that Link's aerials have lower ending lag when TL has more reliable autocancels due to floaty physics, and his aerials in general have more practical hitboxes.

Link has slightly better ground moves than TL, but TL is almost certainly the more well-rounded and stronger character overall.

auto cancels of his F-air and B-air? Trying it out this isn't really comparable in lag time to Link. I certainly agree with the better hitboxes in the air but the delay relevancy is there.
Off-stage TL isn't bringing in D-air, but Link still has it in his pocket.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

As far as I can discern they're the same in terms of frame data, and I currently play them interchangeably. Shaya has indicated this seems to be the case as well iirc.


Two reasons. One, the range on the initial hit is *** now - only just beyond that of our grab. This gives it limited appeal as an OoS or kill option because one of you has to overextend if it's going to hit. Two, Dolphin Jump lets you go deep offstage. You can literally go down to the bottom corner for gimps and still make it back. It also gives him stellar recovery when knocked off, particularly in combination with Dashing Assault.

they are the exact same with frame data.

Damage and knockback are different though.

 

[Signia]

And Lucina only does about 1% more damage than Marth's non-tippers.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2i80q0/lucina_vs_marth_damage_i_couldnt_find_this/

The only good reason I see to use Lucina over Marth is for her JC upsmash punish on grounded opponents as an easy finisher.

 

[Luco]

Well Shaya's point on the tippers leading to differences on 'safety' would be a defining factor in viability. If Lucina's playstyle could be shown to differ significantly due to this and her level of viability giving her significantly different results, then yes I could see her significantly lower than Marth.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

And Lucina only does about 1% more damage than Marth's non-tippers.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2i80q0/lucina_vs_marth_damage_i_couldnt_find_this/

The only good reason I see to use Lucina over Marth is for her JC upsmash punish on grounded opponents as an easy finisher.

Not all, she can do up to 3% more depending on the move.

imo, I think as a character Marth is better but I like playing Lucina more because she reminds me of Roy.

 

[Thinkaman]

I want to chime in about tier compression.

Regardless of who I think the best characters are, I think they are pretty close with one another. Relative to the rest of the cast, I think they are around Brawl Marth level. (A little less impressive/dominant than Brawl Diddy or Olimar.)

On the far end, I think the worst characters are Olimar, Palutena, and Swordfighter. However, Olimar still had some solid tools and that you've-got-to-be-kidding-me pivot grab; meanwhile Palutena has a formidable anti-camp game, high damage counter, and a variety of rushdown options. (Super Speed is a solid move) Swordfighter isn't awful either, with decent projectiles and respectable disjoint. Relative to the rest of the cast, I think these characters are around Brawl Kirby level.

This is a 58% tier compression by nominal rank, and a little more (~80%?) by actual deviation. This is in spite of the roster being expanded by 13 characters.

It's foolish to make meaningful claims about balance 12 days after our region's release--this time in Brawl's release cycle, we were complaining about Wolf being OP--but this back-of-the-envelope musing suggests that balance is looking pretty good.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, if Falco is low tier, then this game is disgustingly balanced. Like, I remember the day Brawl was released and I played CAPTAIN FALCON... It was unbelievable how horrendous he felt in every way.
I do feel like the tops in this game are going to be similar stories to how Brawl top tiers went against lower characters though (i.e. maybe being able to do well in a really restricted neutral and can possibly camp the lead, but at a deficit will have close to 0% ability to amass a comeback), but custom specials are proving to give characters a lot more options in general to even up things further, so who knows.

The question is whether we're going to get balance patches in any way in the future, or if the WiiU version is going to have slightly different numbers running on characters.

 

[Funtroon]

I've been asking this question for a while now but no one seems to answer me.

Are any of the characters considered to completely obsolete and not winnable?

 

[Tristan_win]

I've been asking this question for a while now but no one seems to answer me.

Are any of the characters considered to completely obsolete and not winnable?

The reason why your not getting a answer is because no character has demonstrated yet to be outstandingly worst then everyone else. Even Zelda is showing promise and she's always been near the bottom of the tier list. Sure she wont be top tier but she's obviously isn't bad, the same could be said about falco.

So as of right now the best answer your going to get is 'Currently No.'