Character Competitive Impressions

[DJ Arcatek]

Speaking of (semi) clones, how do people feel about Link and Toon Link? In Brawl, the capabilities and advantages Tink had over Link were palpable, but is the hero of time just as good, if not, better than his Toon counterpart this time around?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I think we can all agree that vanilla Mario isn't ass tier.

Smooth Criminal

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's Dtilt is stupid compared to what it was in Brawl lol. I probably should've specified anyways, my bad.

I still don't think Bottom 5. That's TOO extreme for my tastes because then Doc would be lower and I really don't think he's that far down. Unless you think Doc is better?

I used to think Doc was better, until I realized that Doc's mobility is bad. Though his ability to actually KO with aerials is pretty hard to ignore compared to Mario, especially with B-air doing a lot more damage and knockback, meaning Doc unlike Mario sorta can win games by trading hits.

Bottom 5 from what I know about the game imo is Olimar, Luigi, Mario, Doc, and Ganondorf.

You see Mario...on the level of Olimar?

They're both limited characters that don't have good options against traps and aren't very threatening in neutral.

 

[Lukingordex]

I've played a lot with Dedede, Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Robin, Greninja and Bowser Jr. Here are my "pros and cons" write ups.



If I had to say, from what I've played with and against friends, Lucina, Duck Hunt, Sheik and Bowser are looking really strong. I also like Yoshi and Dedede a lot.

I can't believe a person who thinks Yoshi's neutral B is useless received 19 likes

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think we can all agree that vanilla Mario isn't *** tier.

Smooth Criminal

There is no *** tier in this game as far as anyone really knows, especially since there really isn't a god tier in this game. No god tier = fewer things get blatantly invalidated.

Doesn't mean Mario isn't bottom 5 OVERALL on default settings. I will add that it is worth considering that Mario is probably one of the better non-high tier characters at fighting Rosalina, because B-throw.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'd sooner put Dedede down in bottom 5 than I would Mario, dude, and I ****ing main him.

Smooth Criminal

 

[A2ZOMG]

Eh, I could definitely see that at least on the basis of counterpicks. Sucks to be a fat*** in Smash generally speaking.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

My bottom five would be as follows:

5 Regrettably.
4 Lost a lot of its best killing power.
3 My bae, what did they do to you
2 Poor Luigi, he deserves better.
1 He just sucks, let's face it.

And my top five would be:

1 Terrifying.
2 The comeback king.
3 Yet to play against a decent one but the potential is there.
4 Don't even think about trying to get back on stage.
5 / Both have excellent mobility and control you well at early %s.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Pikachu and Falco are nerfed, but by all means are not even close to terrible.

Pikachu still has really stupid shenanigans with QAC that can't be reactively countered, and his excellent recovery and projectiles make him strong at edgeguarding. His grab game is also still above average when U-throw puts people in retardedly bad positions at most percents.

Falco can't be camped, and has some of the best ground normals in the game. Shine even got buffed to be a better poke than before, and Falco's recovery is much stronger in this game, making him more durable overall. SideB even can be used to edgeguard aggressively, which can be scary when it's a long range meteor.

 

[Seagull Joe]

This is honestly the main thing that is making me second guess Falco being super nerfed.

Wolf's Bair was really That damn good in Brawl. I 100% blame Kain/Seagull for me thinking this. Wolf's Bair is a top tier move.

Well, had a fast fall speed and a low jump. 's jump is high and he doesn't fall nearly as fast. 's bair also had shield push and 's currently doesn't...

 

[Lake3ly]

Any info on Megaman?

Weak jabs tbh. But his play style isn't for me unfortunately. I like brawlers a lot more

 

[Lake3ly]

I'm straight up disappointed with megaman. Love his games and his final smash is amazing. But his clunky most projectile play style saddens me. It's very true for his games, just a little disappointing especially when faced against Little mac's side b

 

[ChronoPenguin]

My bottom five would be as follows:

5 Regrettably.
4 Lost a lot of its best killing power.
3 My bae, what did they do to you
2 Poor Luigi, he deserves better.
1 He just sucks, let's face it.

And my top five would be:

1 Terrifying.
2 The comeback king.
3 Yet to play against a decent one but the potential is there.
4 Don't even think about trying to get back on stage.
5 / Both have excellent mobility and control you well at early %s.

So far I think Olimar might be worst character in game.

I'll hold out on the rest, but I don't see Olimar moving past bottom 3 so long as customs aren't allowed.
If anything I think the reason more people don't discuss Olimars state is because they forget he's even in the game.

 

[Lake3ly]

So far I think Olimar might be worst character in game.

I'll hold out on the rest, but I don't see Olimar moving past bottom 3 so long as customs aren't allowed.
If anything I think the reason more people don't discuss Olimars state is because they forget he's even in the game.

I completely agree sadly. Very unique character but I don't see him having any potential. I think Fox has got to be bottom 10 like damn he's down there now.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Fox is great.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Olimar and Ike have some safe moves on shield and spotdodge.

Ganondorf...really doesn't except at very specific spacing, and he still suffers from having terrible grab range making his Dash Attack/grab mixup the most telegraphed in the game. Thus Ganondorf is overall the worst character in the game, because he has the fewest options overall to get past defensive games.

 

[Lake3ly]

Fox is great.

To each their own I guess.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

isnt ftilt and dtilt safe on shield?

 

[Lake3ly]

Any thoughts on PAC?

 

[A2ZOMG]

isnt ftilt and dtilt safe on shield?

D-tilt is only safe on shield at maximum range, otherwise his leg can be shieldgrabbed. Considering Ganon's poor walk speed, you will rarely ever be in a position to pressure shields at max range with D-tilt.

F-tilt can usually be punished by most Dash Attacks or F-airs with good range.

Ganondorf's only move that is TRULY safe on block is autocanceled B-air, which doesn't connect on short characters.

SHFF F-air is decent on shields, but some of the really fast DAs can still punish it too. And it's slow enough that Ganondorf does have to worry about it being powershielded.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I keep thinking Lucario is being way overhyped.

Ganon is like Zard where they are read reaction hard punish characters. They operate differently, Zard has a projectile and possibly one of the best side Bs on the Ganon. Ganon has more garenteed frame traps/combos hits overall harder.

Both are still solid, just you can be melee hyper hit shields a lot.

 

[Lake3ly]

I keep thinking Lucario is being way overhyped.

I agree. But I feel that way mainly because I have a hard time with his moveset

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I agree. But I feel that way mainly because I have a hard time with his moveset

The biggest factor to beat him is nailing him when he uses UpB. That and going in on him and never letting up.

 

[Lake3ly]

The biggest factor to beat him is nailing him when he uses UpB. That and going in on him and never letting up.

Very true. A lot if characters can do so. Pac's side b is a great punish move with its aim.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Counter for overagression. Extreme speed can be angled to snap edge or go to the other side of the stage. Few characters have the speed to reliably deal with the option while edge guarding l. Its what Falcon, sonic. Mac and Shulk? You also want to meet it with a kill move. A fed Lucario can kill Shulk ~65% with a back air.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I keep thinking Lucario is being way overhyped.

Ganon is like Zard where they are read reaction hard punish characters. They operate differently, Zard has a projectile and possibly one of the best side Bs on the Ganon. Ganon has more garenteed frame traps/combos hits overall harder.

Both are still solid, just you can be melee hyper hit shields a lot.

I feel like the only reason Ganon can win games is just because he DOES kill faster than anyone on a good read, and nobody gimps him in this game like they did in Brawl. Actually getting there is really difficult though, because he can't really beat anyone in neutral. He just hopes you get hit and then like tries to instakill you with perfect edgeguarding.

Not hopeless, but he is logically the worst character and most likely lacks matchups that are favorable. Now Ganondorf with Drop Kick...that is serious business and potentially makes him the best of the heavies because FOOT DIVE is so top tier.

 

[Scala]

A couple characters I think are really underestimated currently are pit and falco

Falco has a seriously great boxing game, combo potential from dthrow and uthrow, great hitbox that kills on backair, really good recovery, and a fsmash that's very fast and kills with good range and (arguably) the best reflector in a game that's dominated by projectile characters now. His laser is actually useful but you have to take more exacting shots with it and can't just shdl and keep people out. He plays differently and people are only ranking him low because he plays differently than old games.

Pit has really fast and far reaching hitboxes with ftilt, dtilt, fsmash. usmash and uair have a ton of priority. three jumps combined with his high priority aerials means he can chase offstage well. He will recover from almost anywhere (though no hitbox which is unfortunate, but somewhat mitigated by having 3 jumps). And lastly, his ARROWS are INSANE if you can aim well.

Other than that I think Rosalina is probably very nearly the best in the game right now. Luma seems to negate a lot of options that characters rely on to approach, she has some insane disjointed hitboxes and priority, true combos (with luma), a pretty good recovery, and her roll is crazy good. In my eyes she also has the most potential to become a broken character in the future even though she isn't right now.

 

[MM3K]

I had really cool experience a couple days ago, I was playing with Ike in For Glory and not a lot of people seem to know how to deal with him, I was dominating a Falcon and I was even able to take down a pretty competent Rosalina after being beated a couple matches while I was using Marth. I don't really know what to make of it, I'm still pretty puzzled about the whole thing.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Actually...here's a legit reason why Ganondorf may not be the worst character on default settings anymore.

Wait wait wait wait wait.....


Ganon can Dacus now?
https://vine.co/v/OAQtn1qE1L1

He's still gonna need custom FOOT DIVE to properly get around projectiles (not to mention make up for his poor recovery), but this is going to be serious business on the Wii-U.

 

[bc1910]

I keep thinking Lucario is being way overhyped.

I can't help but disagree. The character gets better in almost every way as the fight goes on. You are never truly "beating" him, he probably wants you to hit him. Aura just doesn't make sense to me as a mechanic.

However I don't think Lucario is unbeatable or even the best in the game, because I don't think his moveset is THAT good. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's not a Sheik/Greninja/ZSS moveset in terms of having a ton of amazing moves. Most of his attacks have significant startup, recovery or both. Those that don't tend not to be very threatening in terms of damage or kill potential. His average moveset is the only thing that holds him back though imo. If his moveset was just a shade better I could see him obliterating 90% of the cast.

I think Lucario will only get better as time goes on as well; people will perfect their combos and kill setups to make the most of his moveset.

 

[NintenRob]

How are the characters in my avatar shaping up?

Including customs?

 

[Funtroon]

Any thoughts on the mighty Jiggs?

 

[Z'zgashi]

I personally think Jiggs is borderline Top/High Tier, she's insane.

How are the characters in my avatar shaping up?

Including customs?

Personally, I'd say:
Kirby = Mid/Low Mid ; people seem to be rating him really low for whatever reason (like bottom 5 low), but I dont see it. He's practically a carbon copy of Brawl Kirby, but with slightly more kill power and less good low percent juggles, so overall VERY slightly nerfed.

Rosalina = Top ; Personally, I think shes being VERY slightly overrated (imo she's only barely Top 5, but everyone else seems to think she's Top 3, even possibly the best), but she's most definitely solid. Only reason I dont see her being Top 3 like everyone else is because there are a few characters like Yoshi and Jiggs who can practically nullify Luma if they're played right, and Im sure as the meta evolves some other characters will find ways to deal with her and play safe around Luma, so I'd be willing to bet she'll have a small handful of bad match ups keeping her from Top 3.

R.O.B. = High Mid/Maybe High? ; Just slightly buffed from Brawl, but not much else. Honestly, I havent played as or against ROB enough to know for certain, but he seems solid.

GW = High ; He can combo into anything from throws and his aerials are cray cray, hes real good.

 

[epicgordan]

Okay, I'm going to make this abundantly clear: Even if one were to apply custom moves, Olimar would still be the worst character in the game--especially since they don't help him or his problems at all one bit. Why? Well, the big reason is thus: Because the Pikmin move at only 30 FPS, that means their effectiveness is doomed right from the get go. The customs cannot possibly help, and the improvements that they do make are minimal at best. People are giving Palutena crap, but at least her custom moves help her; at least she has a usable defensive gameplan. Olimar cannot cover up his weaknesses at all.

Now, as for my controversial move to keep the clones in separate tiers from their original counterparts, the minimal changes are a very big deal especially when it comes to tactical uses. For example, Lucina is nimbler, but lacks a tipper; Marth possesses one. Dark Pit, meanwhile, cannot change the trajectory of his neutrals as well as Pit can, but his side special has electric properties, whereas Pit does not (Dark Pit is also slower, yet stronger than Pit). And lastly, do I need to mention the many differences between Mario and Dr. Mario? It's these little things that ultimately changes the way each of these clones would have to be played, even with the implementation of custom moves.

Let me use Lucina as a big example. Because Lucina lacks a tipper in her attacks (and since the hitboxes for both of these characters are not as good as they were in past games), it means she cannot zone and control the space as effectively as Marth can. As a result, the best course of action with her is to adopt a more defensive gameplan; wait for the opponent to make the mistakes, and then let them have it. Custom moves benefits Lucina better than Marth does, with the exception of the third neutral, however.

Dark Pit is a bit of a different animal from Pit, but Pit is designed to be more of a tactical fighter and thus will get more leeway off of custom moves than Dark Pit (though not as much leeway as, say, Lucina would in comparison to her counterpart); Dark Pit, meanwhile, feels more like a beatdown type of character, which doesn't exactly help this sort of character. At least Lucina's placement is disputable compared to Marth's, but Pit just screams better fit for a more fitting plyastyle (you can't exactly play tactics very well with Dark Pit).

I could go on and on with Mario and Dr. Mario, but I think the general consensus has it that Mario is simply much better this time around.

And while I have yet to unlock all of everyone's custom moves, keep in mind that Marth and Lucina share all of the same moves; and Pit and Dark Pit have the same specials save for the sides (and even there, it's consisting mainly of different properties). And I already have all of Lucina's and all of Pit's.

 

[Deathcarter]

Now, as for my controversial move to keep the clones in separate tiers from their original counterparts, the minimal changes are a very big deal especially when it comes to tactical uses. For example, Lucina is nimbler, but lacks a tipper; Marth possesses one. Dark Pit, meanwhile, cannot change the trajectory of his neutrals as well as Pit can, but his side special has electric properties, whereas Pit does not (Dark Pit is also slower, yet stronger than Pit). And lastly, do I need to mention the many differences between Mario and Dr. Mario? It's these little things that ultimately changes the way each of these clones would have to be played, even with the implementation of custom moves.

Pit and Dark Pit are nearly identical:

http://smashboards.com/threads/two-...t-dark-pit-meta-game-discussion.369080/page-6 (second post)

Literally the only differences between Pit and Dark Pit are different arrows and a different side-B. I feel Pit is slightly better due to more controllable arrows but these minute differences do not constitute an entire tier difference. I can't speak on Marth/Lucina and Mario/Dr.Mario.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I haven't seen benefit to Dark Pit over Pit. Ignoring Side B's it's all in the arrows and pits are far more practical.
I just see it as another 8 skins for your Pit with an arrow nerf attached to a different hair color.

 

[Luco]

Let me use Lucina as a big example. Because Lucina lacks a tipper in her attacks (and since the hitboxes for both of these characters are not as good as they were in past games), it means she cannot zone and control the space as effectively as Marth can. As a result, the best course of action with her is to adopt a more defensive gameplan; wait for the opponent to make the mistakes, and then let them have it. Custom moves benefits Lucina better than Marth does, with the exception of the third neutral, however.

Lucina's sword is stronger overall, or perhaps it would be more correct to say, spread more evenly throughout the length of the sword - so although she doesn't get as much as Marth out of a tipper for obvious reasons, I see absolutely no reason why she cannot zone more or less as effectively as him.

Don't get me wrong, clones certainly have differences that matter competitively - In Brawl there was a massive discrepancy between falco and wolf/fox, as well as lesser differences between Mario and Luigi, captain falcon and ganon and so on. Yet the difference here is, in the case of Lucina and D. Pit, these are alternate character models that have been separated and given slightly different stats. Just because Lucina's strength is distributed evenly along the sword and Dark Pit's arrows cannot be manouvered nearly as well as Pit's (this WOULD be a big difference if pit camping in this game actually meant anything anymore lol, sorry Pit ), I don't feel these differences are enough practically to differentiate them so.

The reason it did in Brawl for characters like Fox and Falco is because falco had flinching (still has obviously) on his lasers and fox didn't. Due to Falco's lagless landings with laser (another thing that differentiated them), he had incredible combos and options over Fox's classic Dair ---> Utilt

These differences were really big. But if, on the other hand, Falco and Fox in brawl both had flinching properties on their lasers and lagless landings with them and whatnot and for all intents and purposes they were total clones except Fox's phantasm had an electric elemental hitbox and falco's sideB had a fire elemental hitbox and maybe even Fox's lasers didn't go quite as far... they'd still probably be in the same tier because practically, their playstyle would be the same with negligable nerfs to Fox in this case.

I can understand if Dr Mario is quite a few places below mario or even a tier; but Lucina and D. Pit appear to me to have incredibly similar qualities in many areas that doesn't affect their style. Correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucina's sword changes how she kills and how she can link moves together since knockback and damage is different.

Pit and Dark Pit, heck if I know.

 

[A2ZOMG]

R.O.B. = High Mid/Maybe High? ; Just slightly buffed from Brawl, but not much else. Honestly, I havent played as or against ROB enough to know for certain, but he seems solid.

GW = High ; He can combo into anything from throws and his aerials are cray cray, hes real good.

My prediction is as the game evolves and people learn to edgeguard more efficiently, R.O.B.'s competitive value will go down considerably. He is a character that is directly hurt by the general changes to edges, and also benefits relatively little from the airdodge physics. R.O.B.'s neutral game is passable (worth keeping in mind R.O.B. also lost dominance in footsies due to nerfs to his tilts), but I do not believe it makes up for his noticeably horrible negative state and his relatively limited KO setups. R.O.B. needs to land relatively telegraphed moves like U-smash, U-air, or B-air to KO, and R.O.B.'s physics make him relatively bad at air pressure and also very vulnerable to being juggled. R.O.B. also has one of the most easily intercepted low recoveries in the game, which as I stated does not benefit from ledge mechanics, while ledge mechanics prevent R.O.B. from edgeguarding most other characters unless he has Gyro.

G&W's aerials are okay. Most of them aren't super safe in this game minus SHFF F-air. G&W's ground game got some buffs and nerfs. D-tilt most noticably got nerfed, making his midrange game riskier, though G&W's punish options on the ground are better with his new DA. G&W still has trouble killing in this game, rather he has more trouble KOing due to Smashes getting nerfed and aerials overall not hitting as hard. And he doesn't benefit from Bucket Braking in this game. Hard to say he's really high tier atm.

 

[Luco]

Lucina's sword changes how she kills and how she can link moves together since knockback and damage is different.

Pit and Dark Pit, heck if I know.

Well the differences would determine some things, sure. But for instance, Lucina should still be able to control very effectively from what I can see. Her kill setups would be different, sure, and this is something I think would change her position, but not by so much as more than a few spots and certainly not by so much as a tier, right?