Character Competitive Impressions

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well the differences would determine some things, sure. But for instance, Lucina should still be able to control very effectively from what I can see. Her kill setups would be different, sure, and this is something I think would change her position, but not by so much as more than a few spots and certainly not by so much as a tier, right?

Yeah pretty much, she's gonna hover close to Marth.

 

[Sarix]

So far after 2 days of virtually nothing but Samus, here are the conclusions I've come to for her competitive ability:

Pros:
+ Significantly better ground game that can trade at worst with most of the cast
+ Decent to average combo potential
+ Actual kill power and a Usmash that's finally useful
+ Better but not amazing grab game
+ Has the ability to be aggressive

Cons:
- Projectile game got nerfed again
- Nair is rather gimmicky atm
- Air to ground transition is harsher with significantly higher average landing lag on her air normals (from 9 to 19) & Dair changes
- Recovery got a bit nerfed via bomb jumping
- Defensive game is still poor

Samus is in a weird spot this game in that she got some significant gains in her close combat at the cost of her projectile game. Overall she plays like a buffed 64 Samus with a more awkward long range game while having some reliable normals again. Unlike Brawl she can actually play more aggressively with her combo potential and ability to make use of momentum offensively. She still functions somewhat in the Stone Wall archetype being better at taking heavy hits than dealing them back. Currently I would consider her at best a middling character with nothing particularly outstanding or anything extremely bad.

With custom moves however, her potential significantly increases with better mix-ups, approaching, stage control, and overall zoning ability. Relentless missiles and the dense charge shot stand out for giving her lingering hitboxes that have offensive and defensive application that she can approach behind or use to create a wall that sets up ideal punishes on her opponent's approaches. If custom moves become a legal norm then Samus can easily become an above average character at least.

 

[Shaya]

I haven't tested otherwise, but it does make sense based off of observation.
But Lucina's full hop retreating forward air isn't safe on shield, while Marth's is. Tipper or otherwise.

The reason for this is that Marth's attacks all have hitlag modifiers. Untippered hits have less hitlag, making them technically safer on shield than they would be naturally. Tippered hits produce more hitlag, making them less safe but usually evening out to around the same "frame advantage" due to the extra damage tipper attacks have.

Lucina does not seem to gain those hitlag modifications from what I've seen thus far (would explain shield drop dash attack being a consistent punish on my Lucina while miraculously not being the case for Marth :<), making her considerably less absolutely frame safe on shield than Marth in every instance.
This is just a theory right now, I'll likely test later, but it does make sense, and if this is the case, Lucina is definitely a noticeably weaker character than he is.

Even if this is not the case, I think nearly every match up will be 5 to 10 points extra in Marth's favour going by a 100 scale. Maybe not enough to differ an extra +/- 1 in a match up chart but this will likely be the case based off observation/tournament data. The 10-15% difference Lucina gets in kill power on her regular attacks holds nothing to Marth's tippers killing on average 20% lower on aerials and 30-50%+ earlier on smash attacks.

 

[Zigoon95]

Okay, I'm going to make this abundantly clear: Even if one were to apply custom moves, Olimar would still be the worst character in the game--especially since they don't help him or his problems at all one bit. Why? Well, the big reason is thus: Because the Pikmin move at only 30 FPS, that means their effectiveness is doomed right from the get go. The customs cannot possibly help, and the improvements that they do make are minimal at best. People are giving Palutena crap, but at least her custom moves help her; at least she has a usable defensive gameplan. Olimar cannot cover up his weaknesses at all.

Does this mean that on Wii U Olimar will be more viable because Pikmins will move at 60 FPS?

 

[epicgordan]

Does this mean that on Wii U Olimar will be more viable because Pikmins will move at 60 FPS?

That's hard to say at the moment. Olimar still wouldn't exactly benefit from his custom moves, but if the Pikmin are indeed at 60 FPS, then they may potentially move up a bit. But no way they will be top or high tier. My guess is, mid-low would be the best case scenario.

Wii U is at a particularly awkward situation as far as tiers are concerned compared to the 3DS. However, I reckon that the tournament mode of choice would be Wii U, and after that, it's back to the old drawing board when it comes to tier lists.

Also, guys, trust me when I say that Marth's tippers are a much bigger deal since he essentially becomes that much more difficult to punish and much more effective at punishing in return than Lucina ever could. Not only is she lighter, but her shield breaker cannot break shields unless some nitwit decides to hold it down throughout the entire duration of the full charge rather than, you know, getting out of the way. Lucina can only successfully punish when the enemy makes a mistake and leaves himself wide open. Marth, on the other hand, can punish defensive plays on a whim and control the space and distance between himself and his opponents better. If Marth and Lucina are to remain on the same tier list, it'd only be because with one big exception in the third neutral, Lucina can harness the custom moves a lot better than Marth can. Give her the second neutral, for example, and you help her defensive game much better than you can with shield breaker. And even then, they're the exact same for both characters.

As for Pit vs. Dark Pit, yes, projectile camping has been nerfed. But Palutena's Bow and the varying custom variants are one of the better customs in the game. Not only do they stun, but they are much more easily steered. It's similar to the differences between Marth and Lucina, and it is those little things that make a big difference between who is better. Granted, it isn't as universally inclined as Marth's tippers, but Smash in general has rewarded nimble, strategic characters like Marth and Pit a lot better than their counterparts (Dark Pit might be the same tier as Pit, however, but those little differences in one set of custom specials combined with his better strength and defense at the cost of speed does make him look more like an aggressive up close fighter; at the very least, he makes better use of his side B than Pit does.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You guys are vastly underestimating Falco. You forget that Falco could be played successfully in Brawl as a close-range boxing character. In fact, this playstyle was almost always the correct approach except vs. characters who are either gone or have changed dramatically since Brawl. He lost lasers as an approach tool in this case but his new back air is godly, even if it isn't quite as good as Wolf's. Jab is different yeah but it's still mega good.

The only characters I think are sort of bad are Dr. Mario and Olimar right now... both seem pretty playable though if you're really into them. And I dunno, it's still so early.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Id say bottom 5 is most likely (and in no specific order, Im just gonna go alphabetically) Doctor Mario, Ike, Luigi, Olimar, and Palutena.

 

[Luco]

You guys are vastly underestimating Falco. You forget that Falco could be played successfully in Brawl as a close-range boxing character. In fact, this playstyle was almost always the correct approach except vs. characters who are either gone or have changed dramatically since Brawl. He lost lasers as an approach tool in this case but his new back air is godly, even if it isn't quite as good as Wolf's. Jab is different yeah but it's still mega good.

The only characters I think are sort of bad are Dr. Mario and Olimar right now... both seem pretty playable though if you're really into them. And I dunno, it's still so early.

I haven't payed too much attention to Falco other than his change in playstyle. If he still has those frame 1 jabs and ridiculous setups then he's probably still pretty darn decent. =P

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You guys are vastly underestimating Falco. You forget that Falco could be played successfully in Brawl as a close-range boxing character. In fact, this playstyle was almost always the correct approach except vs. characters who are either gone or have changed dramatically since Brawl. He lost lasers as an approach tool in this case but his new back air is godly, even if it isn't quite as good as Wolf's. Jab is different yeah but it's still mega good.

His close range options are actually a lot weaker than in Brawl. His dair and usmash got nerfed, he can no longer do the gatling combo and bair is a mid-range spacing tool now. There is little potential for mix-up in close range combat for Falco especially since Falco can't do a whole lot out of throws either. Getting grabbed by Falco in Brawl was a lot more dangerous.

 

[Shaya]

I think Falco's Up Throw is really potent, very easy to get back airs out of it, and they chain, for a long time.
His ground game isn't as great, he can't just freely multi jab shields in a cheesy fashion. But his walking speed, forward tilt, down tilt and jab together make for a very very good ground game from what I've seen thus far. Jab 1/2 on shield mix ups are still a thing. If the falco players can garner more respect through spacing with those tools (not really a sure thing, just hypothesising based off my play) then he can start to make grand use of his dash attack, which really does cut the fat in terms of 50/50s in falco's favour if people aren't shield heavy.

I don't think he's going to be high tier, or maybe not even mid. But I think he'll have a niche in a lot of match ups due to having that very good ground game and his reflector, circumventing his really really lacking kill ability (up throw back air, or down tilt -> fair is like... it lol). I think he's perfectly fine (potentially positive match ups on a design level with some) against Greninja, Lucario, Duck Hunt and Zero Suit. The likes of Bowser could go better over time as our ground game is OKAY in this match up, and his bulkyness is a little bit of juggle fodder for us. Yoshi is forced to play honestly with his eggs and Falco's purple custom reflector are really good at swatting his double jump armor and generally wrecking his air game. Diddy could be in a similar boat but I think his normals, ground speed and air abilities are just going to outclass Falco. Rosalina is very hard but feasible with custom reflector as it knocks away Luma properly. I don't have an opinion on Sheik.

 

[bc1910]

Anyone got any thoughts on Diddy Kong? He seems to rack a lot of damage very easily. He can't kill insanely well but his kill potential isn't exactly bad either.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Anyone got any thoughts on Diddy Kong? He seems to rack a lot of damage very easily. He can't kill insanely well but his kill potential isn't exactly bad either.

Some of NYC think he's the best in the game, FWIW

 

[SaucyDancer]

As for Pit vs. Dark Pit, yes, projectile camping has been nerfed. But Palutena's Bow and the varying custom variants are one of the better customs in the game. Not only do they stun, but they are much more easily steered. It's similar to the differences between Marth and Lucina, and it is those little things that make a big difference between who is better. Granted, it isn't as universally inclined as Marth's tippers, but Smash in general has rewarded nimble, strategic characters like Marth and Pit a lot better than their counterparts (Dark Pit might be the same tier as Pit, however, but those little differences in one set of custom specials combined with his better strength and defense at the cost of speed does make him look more like an aggressive up close fighter; at the very least, he makes better use of his side B than Pit does.

Is there actually any truth in the "Dark Pit is stronger and defensively better" claims? Everything I have seen so far shows Dark Pit and Pit are exactly the same in every way besides the arrows and side b.

Also I did a bit of testing and I believe Pit's side b to be the superior. Basically Pit's sideb KOs Dark Pit on final destination at 142% from any where on the stage. Dark Pit's side b only KOs Dark Pit at that percentage at the far sides of the stage and wont do so in the middle. Basically when you get a character to the damage in which sideb KOs, Pit can hit them any where on the stage where Dark Pit needs to get them over to the side.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I have been playing as the Koopalings for awhile now and I am pretty good as them, here are my thoughts:

- They are not high tier but with their unique projectiles (mecha and clown ditching in particular) they are formidable with mind games. What I have been doing against campers is laying a mecha close but not too close to the edge, it either hits or they dodge it and if they dodge it puts pressure on them to approach you because the mecha is now approaching from behind them. When they approach and get close, I launch out of the car and it blows em up and sometimes combos into the mecha behind them.

- The kill move is their hammer after ditching the car. They have an insanely good match up against Bowser because ditching the car into him hardly ever misses and hitting with the hammer is so easy. Big opponents are easier except for Dedede because his up smash actually nullifies the falling car. I haven't had too many fights with Dedede though but I think he is tough.

- His grab really sucks. It might be the worst tether grab in the game because it is so inconsistent. Sometimes you gotta be close, sometimes it works far away. It is a mixed bag and there is lag if you miss. So he may have bad match-ups against characters you gotta grapple to beat.

So to summarize: the Koopalings work best framed around their fake out abandon move, the hammer and mecha mind games. Bigger characters are terrible against them. They live outrageously long time, usually past 150% so you can take a lot of chances with them. FD is a very good stage for them because it makes it easier to hit with the bailed koopa car.

It might be because I am playing scrubs now or I hit my stride, I dunno but I am riding 80% victory for the past 50 games doing this.

 

[DanGR]

I don't understand the Falco sympathy.

He can't use lasers, his previous forms' primary camp -and- spacing ability. His moves have more lag and less range overall. His air mobility rivals luigi's. He can't approach shields from the air with any consistency, full hopped, short hopped, retreating, or aggressing. It's hard for me to take this character seriously. What's the game plan? Walk up to their face with his good walk and ftilt? Jump around and hope they run at you and miss a move? Why jump at all? Where are the mixups? What moves do you threaten with? What tactics can you use to hit people? What are Falco's useable moves?

A b-air with wolf's b-air mechanics... but with atrocious range on a character with incomparable mobility. It may as well have no range or special hitbox mechanics because the only time you'll land the move is on a hard read.

This Falco reminds me a lot of brawl jiggs except reversed, air<->ground strength/weakness. Jiggs had no ground game and had to float around and rely on baiting out moves. Falco in this game seems to have no air game and has to run back and forth, relying on his tilts. Even then, tilts won't combo or set up anything, and his edge guarding game is nonexistent.

Any good Falco players out there? What am I missing.

Edit: I should add that I haven't messed around with his custom moves.

 

[Shaya]

Side B to get out of bad situations, even if it takes you off stage.
Use custom specials. He has a reflector with high base knockback, massive range, transcended priority and reflects and deals 9%. Won't ever kill but it gives him a lot of keep away game that somewhat compensates laser gutting. I don't think there's a way to save him with lasers, they're all kinda bad.
Can have a side-b that functions as complete invincibility apparently, which may come to be worthwhile so he has his get out of jail free card being the most usable. He has a custom Up-B that is slower to start up, but has a much larger hitbox surrounding it and goes probably 2x the distance of his default but is a rock in freefall, I think with proper customs, you aren't gimping Falco's recovery.

Grab people, up throw them, use the fact you reach the top of the screen with a full hop in like a 1/6th of a second and have a pretty scary uair/back air for that frame trap combination.

Don't kill them, because that would make it too easy.
You can go off stage for edge guards, I assure you.

But yeah, definitely overnerfed. It wouldn't take much to probably tip him back towards high tier though. Just way too many ideas put into Falco to curtail him all thrown in at the same time, and all together are pretty damaging. I really can see how all of his aerials are really good, just ... Luigi in the air no please

 

[DanGR]

It seems like instead of pointing out things that are legitimate strengths, you're hoping the very situational uses of his specials will lead to a not-awful character. This is first step of Sonic Syndrome. You oughta know the signs by now. This is an exact repeat of the first 6 months of Brawl Sonic discussion and progression. Next thing you know you'll appear like genie at the mere mention of Falco's name on smashboards.

But seriously. His initial setup option pool just isn't there. You can't rely on reflector spacing, dashes, and tilts to get the job done.

And I disagree about the offstage game, but that discussion can wait for when we find out what recoveries he'll primarily try to gimp. The meta picks' recoveries afaik seem to be able to bypass Falco's ledge game rather easily. Good recoveries abroad.

 

[Shaya]

He's fine in match ups that his strengths are abusable. And I'm pretty sure I'm making it obvious I think he's mid tier at best.

 

[Lenus Altair]

I'm a bit late to the release party, and have only gotten to play Pit for an extended amount of time. Still, wanted to throw out my thoughts:


*Pit is no longer a camping capable character. Reverse input B's are still great and key to some spacing/keep away games, but his arrows are gimp-tool-only more so now.

*The comparison to Pit's ground games being like Marths/Lucinas apt. His tilts cover a surprising range (though his hurtbox moves with them usually) and his grab options are solid for positioning and low percent combos.

*Most of his air moves have had their range/hitboxes enlarged, and their multihit nature punish the weaker airdodging mechanics well. Nair and Fair are very easy to cancel. Bair nerf makes me sad . Mixed feelings about Fair being multi hit now.

*F-Smash and U-Smash are solid killers (Especially Fsmash.) Though their multi hit nature will be exploited more and more as time goes on.

*Smash arm is a great punisher that kills Okish (though platforms boosts that a lot) but can cut through attacks your opponent commits to. Best saved for when it will kill.

*Recovery is great, but may suffer predictability (since the "best" use of Up B is to aim under the stage and ride up to guarantee a ledge grab.)

*Edge guarding champ.

*Still has killing issues (he's an angel after all.)


He seems solidly in the mid tier and with the potential for the low end of high. Basically, the same spot he was in brawl . He is much more a direct sword user-character now akin to Marth/Lucina that traded kill moves for recovery/off stage pursuit options (and a reflector.) How his custom specials work into this or the finesse of a gamecube controller down the line, not sure.

Also, R.I.P. arrow looping

 

[DJ Arcatek]

So back to my Link vs Tink discussion, who do you guys feel is the better Link this time around?

 

[bc1910]

With Link, I personally don't think he has many advantages over Toon Link. It'd be really nice if Link got the landing lag cancels with bombs and Toon Link didn't, because that'd give him a distinct advantage, but Toon Link even gets that (and due to the trajectory of Toon Link's arrows, Toon Link's arrow -> bomb throw combo works more consistently than Link's). People have told me Link's Zair is better than Toon Link's but I personally have trouble seeing that, Toon Link's seems to be more effective in neutral because it's so much easier to hit with. This isn't to say Link has no advantages though, I personally think his aerials are really solid. Nair and Bair can be used to get some nice follow-ups and ironically have very low landing lag, especially for a heavy character like Link. Toon Link seems to have more trouble landing safely overall and he really feels the nerf to his Bair (which would have chained monstrously with actual hitstun).

 

[wm1026]

I know this is off topic. Sorry :/So to be honest I really like using little mac. I honestly don't think he will be that bad of a character although by no means is he broken. So I'm just wondering what you all think of him? The only thing I would want to change is that his up b and side b went as far in the air as they do when he is in the ground. It that were that way I would be 100% sold on him being my main. So I guess my real question is, is he competitively viable at all?

 

[TokinXDaily]

Falco feels different

 

[WieldyMinotaur]

Is it just me or does Dr Mario have worse recovery than Mario?

Then I also played Pac-Man against lvl 9 CPUs for a while. I understand why people thought he would be low tier. I do not find him to have any great kill options other than smash attacks, charging his side B or hit with the key. And the key takes long to get. His hydrant can be used against him too and his A-moves do not seem that great. I got better with him though.

 

[Unregistered HyperCam2]

Is it just me or does Dr Mario have worse recovery than Mario?

He's always had a worse recovery, it's sort of his gimmick; he hits harder but it slower / has less mobility.
He can walljump as opposed to his Melee counterpart so that can help him a bit.

 

[DavemanCozy]

After playing some matches between work and more work during the weekend:

• Fox for singles
  
• Shulk for doubles
• Bowser all day every day

 

[epicgordan]

Is there actually any truth in the "Dark Pit is stronger and defensively better" claims? Everything I have seen so far shows Dark Pit and Pit are exactly the same in every way besides the arrows and side b.

Also I did a bit of testing and I believe Pit's side b to be the superior. Basically Pit's sideb KOs Dark Pit on final destination at 142% from any where on the stage. Dark Pit's side b only KOs Dark Pit at that percentage at the far sides of the stage and wont do so in the middle. Basically when you get a character to the damage in which sideb KOs, Pit can hit them any where on the stage where Dark Pit needs to get them over to the side.

Pit and Dark Pit are a bit of a strange case. They're like Shulk with Monado Smash and Monado Buster respectively.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Id say bottom 5 is most likely (and in no specific order, Im just gonna go alphabetically) Doctor Mario, Ike, Luigi, Olimar, and Palutena.

Palutena on default settings at least gets to do cheesy things against other zoning characters. Her matchups against Duck Hunt and ZSS don't look terrible simply because her reflector is good and she can force them to not rely on some of their strongest options in neutral which brings them down to a level where they can be contested reasonably. Against ZSS, teleport is also a pretty big deal because it gives her options to escape traps that most of the cast doesn't have.

It's also worth keeping in mind that even though Palutena is mediocre in neutral overall, her grab reward is VERY good. She has one of the most efficient pummels in the game in terms of raw DPS, and her throws offer very practical setups for combos.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Pit and Dark Pit are a bit of a strange case. They're like Shulk with Monado Smash and Monado Buster respectively.

No... The only functional differences are their Side B's and arrows. I heard some stuff about Pit having a stronger FTilt too.

Thats it, iirc. But I do know for sure (at least according to their character boards) that there is no mass knockback or damage difference.

 

[mimgrim]

Is it just me or does Dr Mario have worse recovery than Mario?

They're about the same. Mario's Uspecial goes high and his cape halts his momentum. Doc's Uspecial doesn't go as far but his Dspecial gives him an extra boost in vertical recovery and gives him better horizontal recovery and his cape doesn't halt momentum. And they can both wall jump.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So back to my Link vs Tink discussion, who do you guys feel is the better Link this time around?

Hard to say right now.

More people are leaning on Toon Link being better but I'm not certain on it with the changes Link got.

 

[The Real Gamer]

As of now I'm pretty confident with my top 5 list. In no particular order...
-Sheik
-ZSS
-Diddy
-Yoshi
-RosaLuma

Lucario barely misses the cut at #6 but the difference w/ him is that he needs percent before he becomes scary. The above 5 are scary at all times throughout the match for a variety of reasons.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yoshi isnt top 5, Sonic, Lucario, and maybe a few others (possibly Greninja and Jigglypuff) are better than him.

He is most definitely top 10 though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yoshi isnt top 5, Sonic, Lucario, and maybe a few others (possibly Greninja and Jigglypuff) are better than him.

He is most definitely top 10 though.

I feel like Fox sorta has Yoshi's gameplan, except he doesn't suffer from a tether grab when he needs to make offensive plays. KOing with Fox is slightly less safe when he doesn't have Yoshi's Jab confirms, but simultaneously easier with his still hilariously strong running U-smash.

Plus reflector.

Yoshi I think atm is kinda Snake status. Kinda scary numerically, strategically not quite as much.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I'm a bit biased towards Yoshi since I've had the most MU experience against him than any other top character thus far, but for now I don't see a case for placing Greninja and Jiggs higher. At worse I'd put him at #7.

I feel like Fox sorta has Yoshi's gameplan, except he doesn't suffer from a tether grab when he needs to make offensive plays. KOing with Fox is slightly less safe when he doesn't have Yoshi's Jab confirms, but simultaneously easier with his still hilariously strong running U-smash.

Plus reflector.

Fox is gimp fodder offstage while Yoshi might be the hardest character in the game to gimp thanks to eggs + armor on his 2nd jump.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm a bit biased towards Yoshi since I've had the most MU experience against him than any other top character thus far, but for now I don't see a case for placing Greninja and Jiggs higher. At worse I'd put him at #7.



Fox is gimp fodder offstage while Yoshi might be the hardest character in the game to gimp thanks to eggs + armor on his 2nd jump.

Fox...getting gimped?

You high man? SideB doesn't put him in freefall anymore, and Shine Stalling is still good for mixing up recovery options. If you're getting gimped as Fox, you did something terribly wrong. Fox's recovery in both Melee and Brawl has been one of the most reliable and solid recoveries in the game. That much hasn't changed in Smash 4 either, in fact his recovery even got better.

It's also worth noting that Yoshi's recovery doesn't benefit from the ledge mechanics, making him noticeably more vulnerable on the ledge than a lot of characters when he actually has to worry about edge trapping. Fox has superior options for getting up from the ledge safely in contrast.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Hard to say right now.

More people are leaning on Toon Link being better but I'm not certain on it with the changes Link got.

I'm of the impression Link is better.Toon lacks potency. Feels like his specials are all better than toons in practice. Range is longer to boot.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm of the impression Link is better.Toon lacks potency. Feels like his specials are all better than toons in practice. Range is longer to boot.

On default settings, Toon Link has superior Bombs, better mobility, better aerials, a better recovery, and better throws. Plus his floaty physics make him better at winning spam wars than Link.

Both are pretty terrible at setting up KOs. Link does slightly better securing KOs due to Jab confirms, but he doesn't actually kill much earlier than TL.

 

[Terotrous]

To me, top 3 is fairly obvious:

Sheik
Little Mac
Rosalina & Luma

These three have by far the most tournament wins right now and just generally seem to have very strong tools. Beyond this it gets much more debatable, there's about 10 characters I could potentially see rounding out top 5 (Mario, Yoshi, Bowser, Greninja, Pac-Man, ZSS, Toon Link, Diddy, Lucario, etc)


As for the bottom end of the roster, Zelda is there for sure. She somehow managed to get worse compared to Brawl in a game where every other low tier got better. I could also see Dedede, as I feel he got loads worse compared to Brawl, too, in particular I hate the loss of Bair and Dair. I would also probably consider DK, but for some reason I seem to do bad vs DKs so maybe he has some secret goodness that I'm not seeing.

 

[A2ZOMG]

As for the bottom end of the roster, Zelda is there for sure. She somehow managed to get worse compared to Brawl in a game where every other low tier got better. I could also see Dedede, as I feel he got loads worse compared to Brawl, too, in particular I hate the loss of Bair and Dair. I would also probably consider DK, but for some reason I seem to do bad vs DKs so maybe he has some secret goodness that I'm not seeing.

Zelda is like...1000x better in this game than she was previously, and easily mid tier.

*Jab is faster and actually great for pressure and starting combos.
*Airdodge and ledge mechanics give Zelda legitimate free KO setups, and she hits HARD.
*Grab is normalized and actually viable in footsies
*Up-B is much better for recovery, a GREAT tool for getting out of juggle and edge traps FOR FREE, and the reappearance hitbox kills. This means if Zelda knows where you are landing at you are at 100%, you can't just simply DI away from her and expect her to be unable to chase you. She WILL kill you for landing in this game.

Zelda in this game survives a long time and hits hard. She also has good tools against zoning characters and has great footsies. Suffers somewhat against high mobility characters that can get past her footsies, but isn't unplayable against them.