Character Competitive Impressions

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think his base moveset is fine as is, I have not tinkered with his customs yet too much.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Zard's fine as is, yeah. His up B is a decent kill/recovery move, neutral b is super underrated, especially to cover landings, down b is amazing for getting out of pressure situations, and side b is possibly the best long range punish move in the game. Also, Zard's nair offstage is AMAZING for edgeguarding, his fair is basically a carbon copy of Bowser's fair, which we all know is good, his tilts all have great range, and he's actually decently mobile too. His only real problem is he doesnt have too much safe on block and hes not great at approaching safely. Other than that he's fine.

 

[Smog Frog]

zards fireball cannon(the fire balls fired in a burst)really helps him against camping characters because it has some nice range and it kills projectiles(at least fireballs from mario) and it doesnt deteriorate so you can spam it. makes zard a kinda campy character himself.

 

[InfinityCollision]

This honestly made me laugh. To see someone say they can't play a character because of their voice and then basically follow that with "but I like Shulk". The irony is not wasted on me.

I don't play Shulk, not that I really mind his voice. Probably helps that I've sunk several hundred hours into XBC (two full playthroughs). Good talk though.

Marth... as bad as ever

What in the actual ****. Top 5 in two straight games is pretty bad yo.

I'dve guessed you mistyped "badass", but you mentioned Ike in the same breath and as far as I can tell he's not substantially better (if at all) than his Brawl incarnation.

 

[TiGGesta]

I don't play Shulk, not that I really mind his voice. Probably helps that I've sunk several hundred hours into XBC (two full playthroughs). Good talk though.


What in the actual ****. Top 5 in two straight games is pretty bad yo.

I'dve guessed you mistyped "badass", but you mentioned Ike in the same breath and as far as I can tell he's not substantially better (if at all) than his Brawl incarnation.

As bad as he's ever been, considering he's been top/high tier in every game up until this point where I feel he has trouble killing and lost lots of speed.

 

[Shaya]

In Brawl he was a pretty potent killer in a lot of match ups that mattered. He really only struggled to get the kill in a small select few. Stuff like his neutral air having more kill power the longer it stayed out and down smash being 6 frames and killing well even without tipper covered Marth a lot of the time, it didn't hurt that Dolphin Slash OoS killed most characters as well, it was as simple as someone mispacing on his shield.

Marth's Up Smash in this is a stupendously good kill move on the ground. Tipper Forward Smash is rewarding in this game again (you will be killing people as early or earlier than Bowser's forward smash), back air and up air tippers are great kill moves as well. I don't think he's that much slower, just "laggier" (more cooldown), meaning his risk is higher, but the consistency of the reward is still there.

His game play of being an omnipotent punisher (there really wasn't a thing in Brawl he couldn't punish due to dancing blade + power shields) is still likely there. Losing short hop reactive fairs is a disappointment but he has other tools now (such as dash breaker) and his back air is comparatively a significantly buffed move as well.

I would see me struggling with him if I fell behind in games in a way I wouldn't see as a problem in Brawl. Even without custom moves, he's still firmly capable of handling every character in this game that I've seen, add custom moves and his weaknesses of zoning at a safe distance or being zoned/camped are suddenly evaporated.

"Objectively", the Marth in this game is the worst iteration we've seen. But frame data nerfs were seen across the board (moves are just slower to come out and are laggier, people need to stop focusing on Marth as if he was the only one). The only things he lost option-wise were short hop reactive forward air and his grab game. He has newer options in customs that we didn't have in previous games, and an engine that benefits us; air dodging into the ground being horrendous and edgeguarding/gimping being more relevant (things which he is still better than the entire cast at first glance thanks to MK nerfs). He could still be high tier to be quite honest.

 

[Rajing Clue]

He has newer options in customs that we didn't have in previous games, and an engine that benefits us; air dodging into the ground being horrendous and edgeguarding/gimping being more relevant (things which he is still better than the entire cast at first glance thanks to MK nerfs). He could still be high tier to be quite honest.

I fully agree... His gimp game is very good because of the changes to the engine.

 

[Kofu]

May I ask why everyone keeps saying Fox will be high tier in this game? I haven't really noticed any big changes in his moves that will make his gameplay any more powerful than in was in Brawl. He doesn't get destroyed by as many things as he did in Brawl (like Pikachu's chaingrabs) but as far as his gameplay is concerned it mostly seems the same. Personally I thought he was decent in Brawl, but I haven't seen anything from him in Smash 3DS so far to show me he'll be spectacular this time around.

 

[PKNintendo]

Yeah, Mario is worse in this game. Not only did his recovery get nerfed, he lost Jab cancels, and his combo game is still unreliable and does less damage in this game. Plus he still can't really KO with aerials.

I mean...Brawl Mario could rack some damage decently fast and Jab cancels helped create KO opportunities, but both those things got worse. And meanwhile Yoshi and Rosalina get Jab cancel U-smash...

Though FLUDD got buffed...I think. Seems to be better for actually pushing people away and edgeguarding. Plus Mario sorta benefits from most of the cast also getting universally nerfed. Plus custom moves actually do help him a lot.

Let's hope that customs are widely accepted in tournament play, then.

It seems that many of the characters i'm interested in (Robin, Ness) have some incredibly helpful custom moves. Their legality could make potentially make or break those characters.

 

[Luco]

Let's hope that customs are widely accepted in tournament play, then.

It seems that many of the characters i'm interested in (Robin, Ness) have some incredibly helpful custom moves. Their legality could make potentially make or break those characters.

Hmm, i'm not sure how I feel about custom specials on Ness. I play a very aggressive Ness right now (that could change) and the use of Lucas' PK fire means Ness loses much of his combo potential in favour of a more spacey game. The only other good PSI magnet is also Lucas' but, unlike Lucas, Ness doesn't turn around when using it which means... well not much, actually, it's just a change i'm not really enjoying.

PKT can be changed so it always goes through people. While this in itself isn't particularly helpful considering Ness still has a period of time where his PKT goes through peeps, what it does do is remove the other potential method of edge-guarding Ness which IS used more often - a person with a lead or near 0% will jump into his PKT2 path and suddenly Ness stops and doesn't reach the edge. This PKT would certainly mitigate that, yes, but the PKT itself is also slower and iirc Ness falls a little further, thus not recovering much further anyway correct?

And finally all of his neutral specials are like... not good, iirc. His PK Freeze acts like a PK Flash (something I was ultra ultra sad about) so he can't do much with it, sadly.

Don't get me wrong though, Ness is much better than in Brawl, if anything because edge-guarding is way less useful as well as that CGs are much less of a thing. It's just, the custom moves... are they really all that much better? Like i'm genuinely curious, i'm totally open to info you have that I don't at this stage.

Actually i'll test them all out again and see if I can get a significant boon out of them. ^^'

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Falco is outright atrocious now, and I consider him, due to his B-Air, D-Air, Neutral B, Falling Speed, Attack Knockback and Attack Speed nerfs, a low tier this time around.

Wtf. Falco has Wolf's back aerial in this game, right down to the animation. So yes, that means it starts fast, finishes fast, does good damage, has good range for a melee attack possibly including minor disjoint, knockback that likely makes it unpunishable on hit regardless of % and I've heard Falco mains in this game say it's safe on shield if spaced properly.

Wolf's back aerial was one of the greatest poking moves in Brawl (that could even be used to KO if you didn't stale it, which is still true here btw). I personally see this as a buff.

You can't short hop into B-Air or D-Air without landing before the attack comes out

That's not even true. as I said before, Falco's new back aerial has fast startup. In fact, if you perform one as you leave the ground in a SH either you'll finish the move right before you land, or it autocancels. I'm not sure which.

 

[epicgordan]

I'm going to enjoy Sonic and R.O.B. in this iteration of Smash Brothers. Meta Knight and Toon Link too but to lesser degrees. I haven't played much of Lucario yet, but from the looks of things, I'm enjoying him so far. And of course, Pikachu will always be a fun character to play as (I think at worse, all of these characters will be mid tier, with high or top tier appearing to be likely options). Out of my Brawl mains, Olimar and Falco are the ones that disappoint me the most (though I doubt Falco's going to be bottom tier; maybe low tier; probably mid-low tier).

Out of all the other characters including vets and newcomers alike that I'm going to consider as my personal mains (and I'm talking about starters in the casual sense), I am also enjoying Yoshi, Rosalina, Sheik, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Pit, Greninja, Duck Hunt, Ness, Villager, Lucina, and Pac-Man.

I am also currently experimenting with the likes of Mario, Bowser, Link, Zelda, Palutena, Marth, Little Mac, Charizard, Jigglypuff, Mega Man, and the Mii Fighter classes (I think I may have stumbled upon some viable tactics with the Swordfighter).

Now granted, this doesn't have much to do with tiers, but I do believe that the bulk of the characters I'm working on will definitely be considered for top or high tier--at worst, mid tier. Not that I'm saying that none of the characters I listed won't be mid tier or better as I know full well that Robin's likely going to be a preferred counter pick, and I'm not very good with him. Htowever, many of the characters I tried out look viable for low or bottom tier (which is looking to be pretty small compared to top and high tiers). Palutena, even with her custom specials, doesn't look like she will be escaping low tier. Ganondorf, I feel, will still be low tier--maybe mid-low--because his startup and ending lags are still present and he is still very much exploitable. My very own Olimar and Falco, however, appear trapped in that little group, alongside the likes of Luigi, Wii Fit Trainer (is at her very best in group battles), and Ike. Shulk barely escapes low tier, though his Monado Arts and custom moves don't exactly fix some of the key problems with his moveset, particularly the startup and ending lag, the narrow hitboxes, or the fact that his Smash or aerials won't do any damage unless you hit them on the initial strike--even if the beam coming out of the Monado makes physical contact with the opponents.

I think High-Mid will consist mainly of counterpicks, and mid tier will be just about everyone else who's weaknesses do not exceed their strengths. It's looking a bit like this from my own personal experience (and yes, custom moves are being taken into consideration:

Top Tier (4):
High Tier (6):
High-Mid Tier (12):
Mid Tier (16):
Mid-Low Tier (7):
Low Tier (4):
Bottom Tier (2):

 

[Shaya]

Wtf. Falco has Wolf's back aerial in this game, right down to the animation. So yes, that means it starts fast, finishes fast, does good damage, has good range for a melee attack possibly including minor disjoint, knockback that likely makes it unpunishable on hit regardless of % and I've heard Falco mains in this game say it's safe on shield if spaced properly.

Wolf's back aerial was one of the greatest poking moves in Brawl (that could even be used to KO if you didn't stale it, which is still true here btw). I personally see this as a buff.


That's not even true. as I said before, Falco's new back aerial has fast startup. In fact, if you perform one as you leave the ground in a SH either you'll finish the move right before you land, or it autocancels. I'm not sure which.

Unfortunately what Wolf had which Falco doesn't is aerial mobility. I didn't really notice it before, but someone said to me "falco's aerial mobility is like luigi's in this game", and after a while I really started to notice; he genuinely has one of the worst in the game. His full hop speed is so massive though that he can still use his back air with great effect. Sakurai truly has made this character have a specific flow of mobility, has a SH FF better than most, one of the best walks in the games (with his tilts he is a fantastic footsies character), likely some of the best rolls and great jump height with fast fall speeds, but he's just a rock in terms of momentum and that really does suck out a lot of potency that Falco having Wolf's back air would achieve. This character being maybe 1/3rd up the list more in terms of aerial mobility class would probably be a demon; a price he probably has to pay for how potent his ground pokes still are. Yeah, Wolf aerial mobility on this Falco would've been a really stupid character with stuff like his neutral air (he probably would've been able to get down airs if he could) and otherwise being able to land into jab/ftilt/dtilt/dash attack.
Now I know just to use side-b to get away every time you're put in the air, you're never going to outspace's juggle attempts on you anything more than once (the jump) :<

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wtf. Falco has Wolf's back aerial in this game, right down to the animation. So yes, that means it starts fast, finishes fast, does good damage, has good range for a melee attack possibly including minor disjoint, knockback that likely makes it unpunishable on hit regardless of % and I've heard Falco mains in this game say it's safe on shield if spaced properly.

Wolf's back aerial was one of the greatest poking moves in Brawl (that could even be used to KO if you didn't stale it, which is still true here btw). I personally see this as a buff.


That's not even true. as I said before, Falco's new back aerial has fast startup. In fact, if you perform one as you leave the ground in a SH either you'll finish the move right before you land, or it autocancels. I'm not sure which.

This is honestly the main thing that is making me second guess Falco being super nerfed.

Wolf's Bair was really That damn good in Brawl. I 100% blame Kain/Seagull for me thinking this. Wolf's Bair is a top tier move.

 

[Signia]

Marth is still great. People are forgetting that he now has real shield breaker and a killer counter. Both carry risk, but the risk/reward is far from unreasonable. Having the fastest walk speed and great ground attacks, he has the ability to play very safe as well. I personally like this design better than previous iterations where Marth was basically a grappler (why???).

Top Tier (4):
High Tier (6):
High-Mid Tier (12):
Mid Tier (16):
Mid-Low Tier (7):
Low Tier (4):
Bottom Tier (2):

The clones should definitely be in the same tier. They really are not very different. At all.

May I ask why everyone keeps saying Fox will be high tier in this game? I haven't really noticed any big changes in his moves that will make his gameplay any more powerful than in was in Brawl.

Combos.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Unfortunately what Wolf had which Falco doesn't is aerial mobility. I didn't really notice it before, but someone said to me "falco's aerial mobility is like luigi's in this game", and after a while I really started to notice; he genuinely has one of the worst in the game. His full hop speed is so massive though that he can still use his back air with great effect. Sakurai truly has made this character have a specific flow of mobility, has a SH FF better than most, one of the best walks in the games (with his tilts he is a fantastic footsies character), likely some of the best rolls and great jump height with fast fall speeds, but he's just a rock in terms of momentum and that really does suck out a lot of potency that Falco having Wolf's back air would achieve. This character being maybe 1/3rd up the list more in terms of aerial mobility class would probably be a demon; a price he probably has to pay for how potent his ground pokes still are. Yeah, Wolf aerial mobility on this Falco would've been a really stupid character with stuff like his neutral air (he probably would've been able to get down airs if he could) and otherwise being able to land into jab/ftilt/dtilt/dash attack.
Now I know just to use side-b to get away every time you're put in the air, you're never going to outspace's juggle attempts on you anything more than once (the jump) :<

This is all true though.

Wolf's air mobility is a partly why his bair was so godlike.

 

[Starline]

The engine for this game seems to be almost identical to Brawl's. Is it even a new one? They said they redesigned the game completely but there's things that returned from Brawl that don't make sense being included intentionally in both games.

Wavebouncing, speed hugging, and reverse/inverse aerials all behave exactly as they did in Brawl. You can still do RAR bair as Falco or inverse fair as MK (although those characters aren't as good this time around). I think ledge hugging will be useful except in this game, you want to get on the ledge after your opponent reaches it, not before. Maybe you can wait for them to up+b to the ledge, then quarter-circle the circle pad right after they get there to kick them off, then drop and hit them with an aerial before they get a chance to return to the ground.

Edit: @ Signia : Fox had more combos in Brawl than he does in SSB 3DS.

Edit 2: I forgot to mention, shield tilting and shield platform dropping mechanics seem to be exactly the same as they were in Brawl, too.

 

[Luco]

I agree. The adjustments on Dark Pit's arrows, the evening of strength throughout Lucina's sword and whatever it is with doc I don't think is enough to place them in different tiers. Even with these differences, most of them will play basically the same, though perhaps at most their differences will be how they space on certain moves. Even in Lucina's case, I would argue she's still in the same tier as Marth because for all intents and purposes, she can space the same as him if she's under pressure and still get a decent reward for doing so.

The other thing is that I would have swapped the positions of R.O.B. and ZSS. I don't know enough to comment on the rest of the tier list at this point in time, however.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Doc is the only one that should be in a different tier as he is very functionally different from Mario in everything down to movement speed. A few of his stuff is the same but I think he's mid-low top of the low tier in this game (Doc, I mean)

 

[Z'zgashi]

Mario and Doc are WAY different lol. Like, they dont even feel like clones tbh. Just play Mario for like 5 games and just make a combo video, then go Doc and nothing you did as Mario will work, theyre actually VERY different.

 

[ZombieBran]

I thought Lucina had faster fairs/bairs and Marth had faster smashes? Or was that another rumor disconfirmed?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wow, in this game Ness is really good.

This coming from someone who is indifferent to him as a character.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Good Ness players make me a sad penguin online.

I have a sinking feeling it'll be the same thing offline.

Smooth Criminal

 

[dansal]

Are you THE Smooth Criminal?

 

[Luco]

Mario and Doc are WAY different lol. Like, they dont even feel like clones tbh. Just play Mario for like 5 games and just make a combo video, then go Doc and nothing you did as Mario will work, theyre actually VERY different.

Hm, didn't notice this when I tried the two of them before. Doc is a (definitively) worse mario with Luigi's downB (but worse, I was actually versing Luigi and he outranged me with his) who relies more on power than combo-ability (upB out of shield is like Marth's but much worse).

Doc feels to me in some ways like he'll be played for the bair. Mario has the bair but also has more going for him as viable options from what I can see, so it's obvious to me and everyone apparently that mario beats doc on the tier list. But by how much is still unapparent. From what I can see of him, I think with optimal play he would be a tier below Mario; not two. His grabs still seem to put him in a more or less advantageous situation and he can kinda kill with a punish... to be honest i'm not sure how viable that upB is grounded.

As for his match-ups, I have no idea, but I didn't enjoy versing Sheik. :/

Wow, in this game Ness is really good.

This coming from someone who is indifferent to him as a character.

Gosh darn it Red. :D


EDIT: @ Smooth Criminal ! Why haven't I added you yet? =P

 

[popsofctown]

Doc gets Luigi's recovery with custom specials. Even then he's probably still worse, sadly. Maybe Mario mains will play him with the recovery build in certain matchups though.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thoughts, with specific input on customs now that I have them all:

I can't bring myself to climb on board the negative nancy Mario pity train, not with those customs. Nominal nerfs, while almost everything else in the engine seems good for him. I just cannot currently view Mario as a disadvantaged character.
Yoshi is indeed really strong. Gains almost nothing from customs though, compared to others.
Rosalina is potent, but she suffers more from custom moves being enabled than anyone else. Tons of people rely on specific customs to deal with Luma better--some they might not use in any other matchup.
Bowser Jr. is still a wild card. He never feels helpless or shut out to me. Customs help him significantly, and give him 3 very compelling kart options. I've been using 2, but all 3 are very promising moves...
Diddy, like Yoshi, is really strong on a base level but has unimportant custom options.
Link is not impressive, but far from a joke. His customs are formidable and have a lot of matchup-specific promise.
Every time I think Zelda is bad, I play her and do really well. Phantom is crazy underrated; it stuffs so much stuff. All 3 versions of it are useful, some in more matchups than others.
Sheik feels like easy mode, but I do have trouble killing. Her customs are interesting but not great, especially when you realize how nice her default up-b is as a kill option.
Ganondorf is a good character in this game, full stop. Customs boost him a ton, especially the incredible Wizard's Dropkick.
Palutena seems pretty awful to me right now. Customs probably boost her move than anyone in the game though. Super Speed is a legitimately good move. Her bair and nair are also nothing to scoff at.
Ike is depressingly mediocre. Then you put customs on, and he's really mobile and formidable.
I thought Robin was great, then awful, then great again. Thunder+ is a must. 31% Thoron! With Arcfire wearing down shields, a 31% Thoron is devestating. Did you know that throwing a sword/book is 15%/18% respectively, and really strong kill moves?!?
DDD I thought was awful at one point, but now I have some respect for. Top notch jab now, air game's changes still take getting used to. Armored Jet Hammer and Bouncing Gordos benefit the character immensely.
Little Mac is no flash in the pan. He is here to stay. I'm continually surprised how much I don't mind Battlefield or Yoshi's on him, compared to FD. It's not like sitting on a platform about Little Mac is actually a good idea, after all. His dashing counter custom is a pivotal asset for helping some of his otherwise polarized matchups.
I am totally off the Falco-is-the-worst-character train. His jab is still godly, and is down-b is probably the best reflector in the game. (And now an improved, safer move period.) Wolf bair is still a great move. Being able to Phantasm aggressively off-stage is non-trivially valuable. His recovery is now great, especailly with up-b 2! Lasers and chaingrabs, who needs 'em.
Right now Charizard is a popular guy to dismiss, and I staunchly disagree. Charizard still has the best grab in the game (with Olimar out of the picture), a great jab, and respectable range and power. What's more though, his customs are INCREDIBLE. Side-b 3 is a fantastic move in a dozen ways. Side-b 1 is also underrated; the armor may make it a useful, reliable, costly punish in some matchups. Fire Fang was my biggest surprise--I was SURE it was garbage, but it's safe on block for non-tethers! It just rips through shields. Rising Cyclone is fast, works OoS, is armored on startup, does 22%, and kills really low. With 2 jumps and Side-b 3, Charizard is not lacking for recovery. And Rock Smash is still Rock Smash.
I'm not looking at Jiggs until I get a better controller. I keep accidentally turning around in the air, defeating the point of the character.
If I were to make a list of the top 20 specials in the game, all 3 of Duck Hunt's cans would be on that list. Seriously, all of them are incredible. Giant Gunman is a valuable asset in out-camp matchups, and up-b 3 improves his recovery.
Ness still feels like a top character to me. Side-b 3 is a nice tool, and up-b 2 may help him avoid certain bad matchups based solely on his recovery.
I think I'm less impressed with Falcon than most people. Everything feels a little off to me. But then again, I'm the guy who thought Brawl Falcon was the most fun and satisfying smash character of all time. YMMV. For what it's worth, I think Lightning Falcon Kick is clearly the best option.
Villager benefits a lot from customs. Timber Counter is disgustingly good. His recovery is actually garbage when low--it's trivial to just jump out and hit him with anything, he literally can't stop you--but Extreme Balloon Trip fixes this. Garden is a shockingly good move. 10% base, and poisons, on a good hitbox?
Olimar feels irredeemably bad to me. Don't overlook his pivot grab though, he's still got it going on there. And his recovery is solid now, obviously.
The character we all slept on. WFT is good. Really good. Who needs range when you have those zoning tools? WFT has the curious distinction of being the only character with 3 compelling options in all 4 special slots. Literally all of them are good and worth considering for some matchups/stages.
I win consistently when I play Mega Man, to the surprise of me more than anyone else. It's funny; he's the character that early on we all THOUGHT would improve the most from specials. After all, his defaults besides Rush are terrible right? But it turns out Metal Blade is amazing, and it turns out Leaf Shield is actually useful for gimping and stuffing projectiles. Huh. Still a werid character, but LOL at anyone who thinks he's terrible.

Right now, I'm still playing half the cast sort of equally. But when I really don't want to lose, I find myself leaning towards Ganondorf, Little Mac, Charizard, and Ness.

People who benefit from custom moves the most, in rough order:


People who benefit from custom moves the least, in rough order: (gain the least, others gain tools to deal with them)


and are in weird limbo; they gain a lot, but other people gain specific tools to deal with their unique combat.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Hm, didn't notice this when I tried the two of them before. Doc is a (definitively) worse mario with Luigi's downB (but worse, I was actually versing Luigi and he outranged me with his) who relies more on power than combo-ability (upB out of shield is like Marth's but much worse).

Doc feels to me in some ways like he'll be played for the bair. Mario has the bair but also has more going for him as viable options from what I can see, so it's obvious to me and everyone apparently that mario beats doc on the tier list. But by how much is still unapparent. From what I can see of him, I think with optimal play he would be a tier below Mario; not two. His grabs still seem to put him in a more or less advantageous situation and he can kinda kill with a punish... to be honest i'm not sure how viable that upB is grounded.
EDIT: @ Smooth Criminal ! Why haven't I added you yet? =P

I was a Doc main in Melee and this is pretty much my opinion. While I think Doc is not as far away from Mario as a whole tier, he's certainly weaker. I argue that Doc's main tools are his down-B, bair and uair, while his throws are extraordinarily useful to his otherwise bleh character. I was hoping I wouldn't have to say this but Doc is one of the weaker clones, at least when put up against Lucina and Dark Pit.

His up-B is much shorter range than Mario's, his one-use aerial cape stall has been removed from Melee, his pills seem to bounce higher making them less useful for sprinters like Greninja/Shiek/Little Mac, his fair has had a significant knockback nerf and his aerials without the c-stick are considerably weaker (I don't think he'll take a much higher position in Wii U but it'll maybe bump him up one or two slots). However, when he does hit his aerials he can rack up damage quite well, his down-B has surprisingly strong priority and combos from a non-vectored down-throw, his up-B has more killing potential than before and his smashes are very quick and slightly more powerful than Mario's. I'm not quite sure about his back-throw yet, can anyone confirm if it's anywhere near as good as Melee's?

His main problem is really his matchups. I have quite a few Doc games played in For Glory and his best games are usually against heavyweights like Dedede, Ganon and Ike while he seems to perform well against super-lightweights like Kirby and Jiggly as well. Everything in between seems to wreck Doc hard. I just can't have good games against any quick characters like Little Mac or medium-weights like Link - he's not built for that.

I'll throw in my two cents for Ness too - he's awesome, and one of the few characters that has true high-damage combos. He takes skill, patience and knowledge of the game and rewards it very nicely. His main flaw is his weight.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Thoughts, with specific input on customs now that I have them all:

I can't bring myself to climb on board the negative nancy Mario pity train, not with those customs. Nominal nerfs, while almost everything else in the engine seems good for him. I just cannot currently view Mario as a disadvantaged character.
Yoshi is indeed really strong. Gains almost nothing from customs though, compared to others.
Rosalina is potent, but she suffers more from custom moves being enabled than anyone else. Tons of people rely on specific customs to deal with Luma better--some they might not use in any other matchup.
Bowser Jr. is still a wild card. He never feels helpless or shut out to me. Customs help him significantly, and give him 3 very compelling kart options. I've been using 2, but all 3 are very promising moves...
Diddy, like Yoshi, is really strong on a base level but has unimportant custom options.
Link is not impressive, but far from a joke. His customs are formidable and have a lot of matchup-specific promise.
Every time I think Zelda is bad, I play her and do really well. Phantom is crazy underrated; it stuffs so much stuff. All 3 versions of it are useful, some in more matchups than others.
Sheik feels like easy mode, but I do have trouble killing. Her customs are interesting but not great, especially when you realize how nice her default up-b is as a kill option.
Ganondorf is a good character in this game, full stop. Customs boost him a ton, especially the incredible Wizard's Dropkick.
Palutena seems pretty awful to me right now. Customs probably boost her move than anyone in the game though. Super Speed is a legitimately good move. Her bair and nair are also nothing to scoff at.
Ike is depressingly mediocre. Then you put customs on, and he's really mobile and formidable.
I thought Robin was great, then awful, then great again. Thunder+ is a must. 31% Thoron! With Arcfire wearing down shields, a 31% Thoron is devestating. Did you know that throwing a sword/book is 15%/18% respectively, and really strong kill moves?!?
DDD I thought was awful at one point, but now I have some respect for. Top notch jab now, air game's changes still take getting used to. Armored Jet Hammer and Bouncing Gordos benefit the character immensely.
Little Mac is no flash in the pan. He is here to stay. I'm continually surprised how much I don't mind Battlefield or Yoshi's on him, compared to FD. It's not like sitting on a platform about Little Mac is actually a good idea, after all. His dashing counter custom is a pivotal asset for helping some of his otherwise polarized matchups.
I am totally off the Falco-is-the-worst-character train. His jab is still godly, and is down-b is probably the best reflector in the game. (And now an improved, safer move period.) Wolf bair is still a great move. Being able to Phantasm aggressively off-stage is non-trivially valuable. His recovery is now great, especailly with up-b 2! Lasers and chaingrabs, who needs 'em.
Right now Charizard is a popular guy to dismiss, and I staunchly disagree. Charizard still has the best grab in the game (with Olimar out of the picture), a great jab, and respectable range and power. What's more though, his customs are INCREDIBLE. Side-b 3 is a fantastic move in a dozen ways. Side-b 1 is also underrated; the armor may make it a useful, reliable, costly punish in some matchups. Fire Fang was my biggest surprise--I was SURE it was garbage, but it's safe on block for non-tethers! It just rips through shields. Rising Cyclone is fast, works OoS, is armored on startup, does 22%, and kills really low. With 2 jumps and Side-b 3, Charizard is not lacking for recovery. And Rock Smash is still Rock Smash.
I'm not looking at Jiggs until I get a better controller. I keep accidentally turning around in the air, defeating the point of the character.
If I were to make a list of the top 20 specials in the game, all 3 of Duck Hunt's cans would be on that list. Seriously, all of them are incredible. Giant Gunman is a valuable asset in out-camp matchups, and up-b 3 improves his recovery.
Ness still feels like a top character to me. Side-b 3 is a nice tool, and up-b 2 may help him avoid certain bad matchups based solely on his recovery.
I think I'm less impressed with Falcon than most people. Everything feels a little off to me. But then again, I'm the guy who thought Brawl Falcon was the most fun and satisfying smash character of all time. YMMV. For what it's worth, I think Lightning Falcon Kick is clearly the best option.
Villager benefits a lot from customs. Timber Counter is disgustingly good. His recovery is actually garbage when low--it's trivial to just jump out and hit him with anything, he literally can't stop you--but Extreme Balloon Trip fixes this. Garden is a shockingly good move. 10% base, and poisons, on a good hitbox?
Olimar feels irredeemably bad to me. Don't overlook his pivot grab though, he's still got it going on there. And his recovery is solid now, obviously.
The character we all slept on. WFT is good. Really good. Who needs range when you have those zoning tools? WFT has the curious distinction of being the only character with 3 compelling options in all 4 special slots. Literally all of them are good and worth considering for some matchups/stages.
I win consistently when I play Mega Man, to the surprise of me more than anyone else. It's funny; he's the character that early on we all THOUGHT would improve the most from specials. After all, his defaults besides Rush are terrible right? But it turns out Metal Blade is amazing, and it turns out Leaf Shield is actually useful for gimping and stuffing projectiles. Huh. Still a werid character, but LOL at anyone who thinks he's terrible.

Right now, I'm still playing half the cast sort of equally. But when I really don't want to lose, I find myself leaning towards Ganondorf, Little Mac, Charizard, and Ness.

People who benefit from custom moves the most, in rough order:


People who benefit from custom moves the least, in rough order: (gain the least, others gain tools to deal with them)


and are in weird limbo; they gain a lot, but other people gain specific tools to deal with their unique combat.

To add to that, Bowser also has extremely good custom moves, ones which improve his recovery, options in footsies, and let him potentially camp back against characters who normally would shut him down otherwise by camping. Also, didn't you discuss earlier that you found Samus's customs impressive?

Marth and Lucina are kinda in a similar position to Duck Hunt and Villager in that while they have good customs, the addition of custom moves makes it easier for other characters to check them.

And as for Mario, you can expect me to whine and complain about him for a while when for the most part, I'm not in a position to attend tournaments and really play this game beyond For Glory mode...and I guess with friends online. Default settings, Mario is probably bottom 5. Customs undeniably address his biggest problems. Currently, I see two viable sets on Mario.

Ideal default:
Neutral-B 2
Side-B 3
Up-B 3
Down-B 1

The above set gives Mario much needed combo damage and an aerial KO option from Explosive Jump Punch while Gust Cape simultaneously addresses Mario's recovery, making it harder to directly intercept. Fast fireballs also give Mario something to do in midrange where he previously didn't have great options.

Edgeguard/Recovery oriented:
Neutral-B 1
Side-B 2
Up-B 2
Down-B 3

This is a survivability and offstage KO oriented set, which requires you to obviously run Up-B 2 to maximize. High pressure FLUDD synergizes with Up-B 2 well for offstage pressure (it is worse than regular FLUDD if you're primarily using the ability from onstage). Regular Fireballs are preferred for pressuring low recoveries. Electric Cape is the preferred option on this set because if you are chasing people offstage, the extra KO potential from the move is a bit more valuable.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Default settings, Mario is probably bottom 5.

LOL no, Mario is just fine. He has some of THE best low percent combos, some of THE safest moves on block, and the general physics changes to the game buffed him immensely from Brawl, this character is NOT bad. Hes no Top Tier, nor do I think he's High tier, but imo hes a solid Mid and so long as he doesnt end up having any ridiculously bad MUs, he should be perfectly viable.

 

[Mr. Keebs]

Not a huge fan of custom moves. I don't mind them but I probably won't use them. I like to keep things simple haha...

 

[A2ZOMG]

LOL no, Mario is just fine. He has some of THE best low percent combos, some of THE safest moves on block, and the general physics changes to the game buffed him immensely from Brawl, this character is NOT bad. Hes no Top Tier, nor do I think he's High tier, but imo hes a solid Mid and so long as he doesnt end up having any ridiculously bad MUs, he should be perfectly viable.

Mario's low percent combos are garbage without Explosive Jump Punch.

You can easily interrupt them or jump out of them unless Mario starts them at very specific percents. LITTLE MAC CAN N-AIR OUT OF MARIO'S COMBOS.

Mario does have some moves that are pretty safe on block (so does Sheik, Diddy, and Rosalina, for that matter), but his moves are generally really terrible in midrange, which is unacceptable in Super Footsie Bros for the 3ds/Wii-U. Let's add that Mario does below average damage per hit, and can't kill you with aerial attacks without customs. It's very problematic that he has short range.

Mario lost Jab cancels (meanwhile Yoshi and Rosalina got Jab -> U-smash...) and Cape Stalling (which he needs Gust Cape for). He can't confirm KOs in close range nearly as reliably or safely, and furthermore his recovery is one of few that is strictly worse from Brawl. And Mario still has the problem of getting gimped if he's hit out of his midair jump.

Mario is also really bad at getting out of juggles and getting up from the ledge, and his edge trapping and juggles are not that scary when he doesn't have many ways to kill you quickly if you don't get gimped by him or get hit by F-smash.

The two real buffs that Mario got were that the top tier was nerfed, and that FLUDD pushback appears to be a little better.

 

[Mr. Keebs]

LOL no, Mario is just fine. He has some of THE best low percent combos, some of THE safest moves on block, and the general physics changes to the game buffed him immensely from Brawl, this character is NOT bad. Hes no Top Tier, nor do I think he's High tier, but imo hes a solid Mid and so long as he doesnt end up having any ridiculously bad MUs, he should be perfectly viable.

I agree wholeheartedly! Mario has been beautifully buffed from Brawl (along with Link, haha)

 

[Mr. Keebs]

I'll post some impressions too. Overall the game feels pretty balanced, I hope it's just not the new game effect.



Luigi got nerfed IMO. And why exactly would they do that? I feel once the dust settles he'll fall to rarely used. His forward smash is a shadow of its Brawl self, it's not a stupid-strong move anymore and I really feel like Luigi needed the super strong gimmick in order to not be a mediocre Mario. Then his recovery also took a hit, and it really shouldn't have since it's a very predictable recovery that lacks priority in the first place. Now that I got the negativity out of the way - I'm loving Luigi! I've played as him the most since getting the game, he's still combo-happy and hard reads are rewarded with early KOs. It's a shame only Mario got a projectile range buff and not Luigi, though.


I love what they did to her. Feels way more solid and capable of actually scoring a KO than her pitiful Brawl self, but I don't understand why they changed Pound so that you completely freeze in the air after you do it. It was an incredible move in Brawl and it's now somewhat less safe, but still one of her best moves.



He's one of the characters I played the most since the release of Brawl, there's something I don't quite love about him now. Less range on his cutter projectile and weird knockback for his throws. It's a matter of getting used to him, I guess.


Overall he clearly got nerfed, but for entirely new reasons I think he's a very solid and fun character. His projectile is great, but also can't be spammed since it can be reflected very easily. I love his new down tilt, almost makes up for the removal of his godly Brawl back air. He has a spike now! And I feel his neutral air is better now. One of my favorite characters so far.


I was planning on maining him as soon as he was revealed, and I'll definitely play him a lot, but he doesn't feel very... useful. There are things I really don't like about him at close range, and while his smashes are powerful they're definitely tricky to land. Still a fun character, and I'm kind of glad he won't become overly popular to be honest

The buff! This is clearly Bowser's best SSB incarnation yet (not really hard to achieve, I guess). I miss his more "wild" look in Brawl and particularly Melee, but now that he's fully "humanoid" he can dropkick you to your death at very early %. I find myself missing his old up and back air (because of range and knockback respectively) but they're still great. It's likely that he'll keep being one of my most used characters, I can say I'm happy with Bowser. Plus his blue color is awesome.

I can't think of anything better to say about Dr. Mario other than, he feels safe and effective. And quite strong.

What the heck happened to his down and back air? There are some changes I really don't get. Also, his back throw is not as strong as before. Why? :/

So. Much. Fun. I find him a bit hard to use, mostly because I'm somewhat grab happy and his grab is so slow. At the moment I feel like his projectile is a novelty, and while he has a really interesting up-B that I'm guessing will end up being very abusable. But he has very solid normals, his smashes are quite strong. Also he doesn't die too quickly. Again, just really fun to use.

Upgrade from Brawl, I think. Crown slap is again a reliable kill move (I'm not sure if it's just me, but it not only feel stronger, the range seems quite great now) and she's still a tricky, versatile character. Peach Bomber can be used sometimes now! I miss glide toss but I'll live with it. Back air got a big nerf, but I guess I can't complain when forward air is so great now.

I also like Lucina, Robin and Mario, but I can't think of anything to say about them.

Its a shame Luigi got nerfed. He was my main in Brawl. But I agree, still super fun to play! Luigi players ftw!
Also Pac-Man is incredible!
Smash 4 Mains:

 

[TTTTTsd]

The two real buffs that Mario got were that the top tier was nerfed, and that FLUDD pushback appears to be a little better.

FSmash got buffed actually. Believe it or not the sourspot is almost or very closely as effective as the sweetspot (incredibly weird change but perfectly okay with me).

Dtilt is incredibly stupid now and everyone should abuse the **** out of it. Most of Mario's buffs were this game's mechanics favoring how he works moreso than Brawl did, really.

I still disagree with the bottom 5 analysis because that is an extremely loaded statement. No he's not incredibly godlike but I'd like to see where he goes before I dismiss him entirely.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Feel quite confident Mario is in a good place.

 

[Thinkaman]

To add to that, Bowser also has extremely good custom moves, ones which improve his recovery, options in footsies, and let him potentially camp back against characters who normally would shut him down otherwise by camping.

Bowser claws are pretty great, yeah.

Also, didn't you discuss earlier that you found Samus's customs impressive?

No one I've played against plays Samus. I have played some, but my Samus is so poor that it's hard to infer anything. I politely left her out of my conclusions.

Marth and Lucina are kinda in a similar position to Duck Hunt and Villager in that while they have good customs, the addition of custom moves makes it easier for other characters to check them.

I can see that.

Electric Cape is the preferred option on this set because if you are chasing people offstage, the extra KO potential from the move is a bit more valuable.

I haven't messed with it much; is the extra KO potential actually useful?

 

[A2ZOMG]

FSmash got buffed actually. Believe it or not the sourspot is almost or very closely as effective as the sweetspot (incredibly weird change but perfectly okay with me).

Dtilt is incredibly stupid now and everyone should abuse the **** out of it. Most of Mario's buffs were this game's mechanics favoring how he works moreso than Brawl did, really.

I still disagree with the bottom 5 analysis because that is an extremely loaded statement. No he's not incredibly godlike but I'd like to see where he goes before I dismiss him entirely.

Keep in mind, bottom tier in this game is nowhere nearly the same as it was in previous games. Ganondorf even got far in some Japanese 3DS tournament and almost beat a high level Diddy Kong not too long ago unless I'm mistaken (it's on youtube somewhere), and he's almost undeniably the worst character in the game overall on default settings.

F-smash doesn't look much different to me compared to Brawl. Brawl F-smash also had good knockback on all parts of the move.

Mario's D-tilt is stupid? I don't think you've seen Little Mac, Diddy, or Zelda's D-tilt. THOSE are really, REALLY good D-tilts, I mean especially in Mac's case, he can get an instant death combo from it. Mario's D-tilt is just alright. Too bad Mario can't kill with aerials, and has to KO you with Smashes or gimps.

I haven't messed with it much; is the extra KO potential actually useful?

Usually...no. Electric Cape still does more for Mario either in matchups where he almost absolutely isn't going to gimp but needs to fight in the air (take Jiggs for example), or in my opinion, by running it with Up-B 2 for offstage chasing where direct KOs are usually a bit more practical than gimps. Not that you can't successfully run Gust Cape with that set either, though I believe High Pressure FLUDD does most of the work that Gust Cape would be doing and more in this situation.

I haven't seen people B-reversing Electric Cape, but from what I infer of it's mechanics, it is probably also one of Mario's better B reverse options due to the way it alters his momentum horizontally.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Mario's Dtilt is stupid compared to what it was in Brawl lol. I probably should've specified anyways, my bad.

I still don't think Bottom 5. That's TOO extreme for my tastes because then Doc would be lower and I really don't think he's that far down. Unless you think Doc is better?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Default settings, Mario is probably bottom 5.

You see Mario...on the level of Olimar?