Character Competitive Impressions

[LordShade67]

It's not just Brawl. Any time a big character isn't completely trash, people think they're amazing at release. In SCIV and V, people thought Astaroth was top tier, when later he was considered to be mid tier. Pretty sure something similar happened in SFxT and Blazblue as well.

Hugo in SFxT. Then he got hit by nerfs and became worst in the game in the 2013 patch.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What do you guys think of Link? Has he been buffed significantly enough yet to be high tier, and not middle or low tier this time?
That is my question.

He'd be high tier if his grab game actually was good. Link struggles to get significant reward off throws to counterbalance the risk of him playing footsies. His defensive game is okay, and he does have KO confirms off Jab. Just he doesn't open people up easily and has trouble setting up his bigger moves.

Nah. Now that she has bouncing fish she's not bad at all at avoiding juggles.

Oh...right. I keep forgetting Sheik actually has new moves.

 

[AvariceX]

I feel like a lot of characters have Wesker Syndrome right now. Easy characters with effective simple gameplans at a basic level, but a few months down the road we are all going to remember/realize they have very exploitable weaknesses (some may still be strong, but they will never again be as strong as they seemed at release). Bowser and Mac come to mind instantly.

 

[Conda]

Feeling good about falco and fox. Both dont rely on gimmicks anymore (chaingrabs and laser spam), and arent countered by mechanics that existed in Brawl.

Falco is very different but very strong.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I fail to see what's supposed to be good about Falco. Somebody told me that he [as well as Fox] has IASA frames on his side B during which he can buffer moves for quick follow ups but I haven't seen this in action.

 

[Radical Larry]

Falco is outright atrocious now, and I consider him, due to his B-Air, D-Air, Neutral B, Falling Speed, Attack Knockback and Attack Speed nerfs, a low tier this time around. You can't short hop into B-Air or D-Air without landing before the attack comes out, and it's now way too dangerous to use the Neutral B, due to it now having some amount of ending lag.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I fail to see what's supposed to be good about Falco. Somebody told me that he [as well as Fox] has IASA frames on his side B during which he can buffer moves for quick follow ups but I haven't seen this in action.

Falco has a great reflector and a strong midrange game. Seems like a decent character if you ask me just on that alone. Doesn't get camped, and at minimum forces the game to be played around footsies, where he's competent.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Fox feels bad mostly because that voice. I can't even get past it to look at the rest of his kit.

Starting to warm up to Shulk. Very versatile, incredible range, nair's hitboxes are ridiculous and it has low landing lag, solid offstage game (especially with Monado Jump), good throws, excellent survivability, jab1 seems to confirm into upb. His biggest weakness at a glance seems to be poor approach options.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Falco is a better boxer than Lil Mac. Jab too strong. All tilts, most aerials are great.

Bad specials except for his shine. He's definitely been nerfed but not to the point of him being low tier.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Been playing the following characters for the past few days (Really liking them a lot):

Bowser, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Metaknight, Dedede, Greninja, Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Ness, and Jigglypuff.

Here are the pros and cons for some I've experienced so far (not going to mention everyone, mostly ones I've been using a lot):

Bowser (My Main):

Pros:

- Improved recovery
- Improved Edgeguarding
- Lots of kill moves
- Great FSmash, but is unsafe
- Can kill very early
- Great Spacing
- Down-B can break shields
- Great spacing and pressure
- Doesn't die very easily
- Dair now spikes, but risky
- Dash speed is better so he can get in close pretty fast
- Jab combo has better knockback
- Side-B is still great to get early kills, but depends on %

Cons:
- STILL has trouble against campers
- Lots of landing lag on most of his air attacks
- Range on Side-B has decreased.
- Can be comboed pretty easily by most of the cast
- Despite having an improved edgeguarding capibilities, he can still be edgeguarded pretty easily

Little Mac:

Pros:
- Super fast
- gets in your face pretty quickly
- Smash attacks are safe if spaced right.
- Has super armor on all smash attacks
- Great tilts for spacing and punishing
- D-tilt is a great combo starter (You can combo the KO punch after a D-tilt, but it depends on % and you got to be fast)
- Thanks to Roll Cancel Grab, his Grab range is now better.
- Downsmash is a good edgeguarding move thanks to it's reach and super armor. It's also great for punishing rolls.
- Dash attack, while a little unsafe at times, is still great to catch people off guard.
- Jab combo is great for pressure, possibly one of the best in the game.
- Has a good counter move that can be used as a recovery option.
- Great amount of kill moves.

Cons:
- terrible air game (You ain't no air fighter Mac)
- Despite having lots of recovery options, most of them are predictable and are bad for recovery moves
- Doesn't automatically snap on ledges no matter which recovery move is used.
- Can be edgeguarded pretty easily.
- The KO punch won't kill people at 0 to 20% and it can whiff a lot if not used right.
- Has trouble against projectiles.

King Dedede:

Pros:
- Gordos are great for edgeguarding and mix-ups on ledges (Been doing this quite a lot and it's quite effective). you can also get a stage spike with this move if spaced right.
- Nair is good as a combo starter and mix-ups (you can use it as a cross-up, making opponents grab the wrong way).
- Fair is a good edgeguarding move and combo ender as it comes out pretty fast.
- Downsmash now sends opponents to the side of the stage instead of the ceiling. Can also be used to punish rolls.
- Bair is a fantastic edgeguarding move, as well as a kill move, great to get stage spike kills, and has no landing lag if performed early in a SH.
- Dair is now a spike move, but must be in the right position, but can still kill early even if you don't get the spike.
- Uair is great for ceiling KO's and is great for punishing airdodges in the air.
- Up Smash is still the same, but still good as an anti-air and kill move.
- Up-B now automatically snaps onto ledge, but only if facing towards it.
- Amazing F-tilt for damage and punishing moves/rolls
- Down Throw into Fair is a true combo until around 110% on medium/heavy weights or 90% on light weights.

Cons:
- Easily comboed by other characters
- Dash attack, while powerful, is still a very bad move and super punishable
- Gordos is a terrible zoning move and can easily be reflected back
- Forward Smash is still very slow and very predictable.
- Easily loses to campers (DHD) and combo heavy characters (Sonic)
- U-tilt no longer kills early and doesn't have as much reach as before.

Greninja:

Pros:
- Good pressure
- combo heavy and has lots of true combos
- Air mobility is great
- Pretty fast
- Bair and Fair are great edgeguarding moves
- Fair is a good kill move and combo ender
- Nair is probably his best move. Good for shield pressure, crosses up, and by the time you land on the ground with this move, whether it's on shield or not, you can immediatly go for a jab combo for an easy 20% damage.
- Jab combo is good.
- D-Smash is good to punish rolls and a decent edgeguarding move.
- F-Smash is a good spacing move. Can kill at times.
- U-Smash is a fantastic anti-air and by far his 2nd best kill move next to Fair (You can combo into U-Smash after a weak Nair and at certain %, can kill pretty early).
- Dair is safe on block and crosses up, making it hard for opponents to punish. If you do hit the opponent with Dair, you can follow up with either a Fair or Bair depending on where they go or vector. It's a true combo.
- Uair has a meteor effect on the first few hits and is a good anti-air, punishes airdodges, and a good kill move/combo ender.
- F-tilt is great for spacing, very hard to punish and a good use of pivot tilting.
- D-tilt, if spaced right, can be unpunishable, depending on match-up, but is a decent combo starter.
- U-tilt is a decent anti-air and is a decent combo starter. Not the best tilt move he has, but still solid.
- Dash attack, if you land it, can be used to follow up with either a Fair (If you predict an airdodge), or Uair (If you predict a jump).
- All special moves are great. Neutral-B is great for spacing, edgeguarding, and combo follow ups. Side-B is great to approach. Up-B is possibly one of the best recovery moves in the game and it can push opponents away thanks to it's wind box effect, making it hard for opponents to recover. Down-B is a great counter move for recovering and killing. A bit predictable, but most don't expect it.
- Some of the best grabs in the game, as they lead to either combos or sending opponents off-stage.

Cons:
- Dash attack is unsafe
- Because of 3DS controls, you most of the time get Side-B instead of Up-B for recovering
- Dair can be very predictable and dodged easily.
- Down-B is also predictable.
- Trying to perform a SH is hard due to 3DS controls.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

- Dair is safe on block

I've said this many times, this is not correct. It's not safe on block. You can shield (NOT powershield, not necessary), unshield and utilt him with any char with a moderately fast utilt easily. I bet you can even just unshield and uair. I've done this plenty of times with DHD. About to make a thread about shields/shieldstun, actually.

And honestly, if you think sideB is good in any way BESIDES countering slow startup projectiles, you're insane. The move is telegraphed beyond belief and the recovery after it's done is pitiful. I have forever to just shield as soon as I see you walking circles/your shadow moves, and stand in place for a year while you flip, then grab you.

What Greninja is good at is creating the huge threat of his running speed and air to air with aerials, I can give him that. Shuriken is great for what it is, so the fact that you have to be patient at times vs Greninja makes it hard with certain chars.

Overall though, I feel like Greninja is a version of Sheik that doesn't work out as well.

 

[stingers]

Shulk is high tier just because of his movement options

 

[north-note]

megaman is surprisingly good in 1 on 1 for glory mode. he can easily handle little mac, even the good one with ranged attack like metal blade and megabuster (charge shot). kirby's still hard to use and depending on opponent, can easily lose. he's still very hard to KO despite his light weight.still great for racking up damage. his biggest nerf is shorten range, making him a risk/reward game

 

[Supermario12]

Wario and Fox both have amazing short hop moves in this game

 

[AlMasterX]

Can I get some GOOD insight on Ness in this game from a few different competitive players? He's always going to be one of my favorites, but he just can't keep up in any game except PM. HELP

 

[Conda]

Falco is outright atrocious now, and I consider him, due to his B-Air, D-Air, Neutral B, Falling Speed, Attack Knockback and Attack Speed nerfs, a low tier this time around. You can't short hop into B-Air or D-Air without landing before the attack comes out, and it's now way too dangerous to use the Neutral B, due to it now having some amount of ending lag.

Falco has mostly superior moves to Fox, aside from nair and uair. Fox's jab is easily escaped (you can shield and roll it easily before the final hit) - falco's is more effective. His reflector trips and can be used out of dash. His bair kill at 90% when Fox's doesn't kill til 120~ and is much harder to hit with.

Falco has a weaker usmash but its just 20% behind in killing power, meanwhile his dsmash and fsmash kill at the same %.

 

[Makaronileo]

How come nobody talks abou the Miis.

They are so cool

 

[Radical Larry]

Competitive In-Depth, Link

• Superior ground game compared to most of the cast.
• Far better air game, due to the jumping height increase and the air speed increase, falling speed decrease.
• Very fast and effective attacks.
• He's much faster on ground now.
• Has very useful ATs that work well for him.
• He can take one hell of a beating, and I'm not joking.
• His shield basically blocks all projectiles.
• Can juggle greatly with U-Tilt.
• U-Smash is a great kill move now, instead of a combo move.
• Dash attack is an amazing kill move, both vertically and horizontally.
• F-Tilt is no longer useless due to its much faster speed.
• F-Smash is much better, though hard for me to read and understand as of yet, due to its now-random nature.
• D-Tilt has its Melee-like meteor, and is also decent for setting up combos.
• D-Smash has higher knockback and a semi-spike now, meaning it's more dangerous than ever.
• N-air is a useful tool for gimping recoveries still, and a useful tool to stop combos.
• F-Air is easier to combo into, and it's also a useful tool to gimp recoveries due to its range.
• B-Air is fast and great for setting up combos into itself.
• U-Air is much more powerful and useful for getting KOs, and even more useful thanks to Link's better air game.
• D-Air is capable of killing, still, thanks to its meteor that actually goes up to the middle of the blade. It's also useful for leading into a meteor combo into itself. It can also break combos, and due to its meteor, you better hope hitstun shuffling is on your side.
• Neutral B is much faster, making him capable of gimping opponents from the opposite side of the stage.
• Side B is great for setting up combos.
• Down B is also great for setting up combos.
• Up B is probably one of his best tools out there, since it has high knockback and works well against other characters, due to being a safe tool for its range.
• His recovery is one of the best once more.
  
• His grab game is not so much good, though better than it was before.
• His weight is still sort of a problem due to juggling.
• He is still somewhat of a fast-faller.
• Lost his DACUS attack, weakening his approach a bit.
• Some attacks deal less damage at the expense of knockback.
• Side B has less range, so does his Down B.

And that's all I can really find about Link due to my experience online and against others. He's a very fun to play character, his learning curve is better, and he overall feels much better, and feels like he can be played well. He feels more fluid to me, and I have almost never lost a match with him. While I admit he has some very bad things to him, mainly the loss of his DACUS and his attacks dealing less damage, he's still got enough pros to outweigh the cons, and he feels like he can be played at a high tier to top tier level, if given to the right players, enough time and enough experience.

So far, Link's feeling really amazing, and with his new pros, along with the buffs, I'm pretty sure more and more people will be playing him a lot.

My so-far impressions on his MU (left is Link's MU, right is the opponents'), which are subject to change once more of the metagame develops. This is just my preliminary MU:

Spoiler

Hard Counter ------------------
Soft Counter------------------
Soft Counter ------------------
NeutralNeutral
------------------Soft Counter
Hard Counter------------------
------------------Med. Counter
Heavy Counter------------------
NeutralNeutral
NeutralNeutral
Soft Counter------------------
------------------Soft Counter
Hard Counter------------------
------------------Med. Counter
------------------Heavy Counter
Hard Counter------------------
NeutralNeutral
Soft Counter------------------
NeutralNeutral

------------------Hard Counter
NeutralNeutral
Heavy Counter------------------
Hard Counter------------------
------------------Soft Counter
Intense Counter------------------
Soft Counter------------------
NeutralNeutral
Heavy Counter------------------
------------------Hard Counter
------------------Soft Counter
Hard Counter------------------
Soft Counter------------------
NeutralNeutral
Soft Counter------------------
NeutralNeutral
NeutralNeutral
Hard Counter------------------
------------------Hard Counter
Soft Counter------------------
NeutralNeutral
Heavy Counter------------------
Intense Counter------------------
NeutralNeutral
Med. Counter------------------
Med. Counter------------------
Hard Counter------------------
------------------Soft Counter

Once I can find a definitive answer with researching more, I'll come up with a more accurate version of this, and hopefully it's far more reasonable next time around.​

 

[SoulOfKhaos]

I'm liking the Pits so far. I like chaining Nair multiple times to juggle my opponent and rack up damage then follow with a Fair or a Bair.
I also like Marth/Lucina because I'm used to play Roy and Marth. Also can Lucina can do some sort of Ken combo? Because her Fair launch the enemytoo far to follow with a Dair, so does that work with a Bair?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

How come nobody talks abou the Miis.

They are so cool

Brawlers good, sword sucks, Gunner is inbetween.
/discussed.

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm liking the Pits so far. I like chaining Nair multiple times to juggle my opponent and rack up damage then follow with a Fair or a Bair.
I also like Marth/Lucina because I'm used to play Roy and Marth. Also can Lucina can do some sort of Ken combo? Because her Fair launch the enemytoo far to follow with a Dair, so does that work with a Bair?

Her B-Air has nearly the same knockback as the F-Air, though with more vertical distance added to it, so chaining up a Ken Combo with her is unlikely to happen at higher percentages. The best bet for her is N-Air > D-Air, since the N-Air can chain to other attacks.

 

[dansal]

Brawlers good, sword sucks, Gunner is inbetween.
/discussed.

apparently 3112 mii gunner is pretty ridiculous IRT spamming projectiles all day.

 

[Luco]

Can I get some GOOD insight on Ness in this game from a few different competitive players? He's always going to be one of my favorites, but he just can't keep up in any game except PM. HELP

I'm yet to use him in tournament, so my advice would be iffy at this stage. Have you checked the Ness boards yet? It's probably easier to get character specific help there.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-psi-powered-youth-game-play-general.367167/page-3

 

[Emblem Lord]

Brawler feint jump is better than anything the other miis have. and most of the regular cast for that matter

 

[PK Gaming]

Brief thoughts on the characters I main:

• Robin seems ok. Middle of the road type character with clear strengths and flaws. Much more of a threat when customs are legal.
• Wario is super super super good. The Wario Waft is literally a game changer and KOing him is extremely difficult.
• Shulk seems so-so, but I imagine he'll improve once Monado art cancels are fully explored (Buster art is a crutch)
• Pit seems like a solid character at first glance, but his inability to consistently KO really hurts him. Really feeling that Bair nerf.

 

[Emblem Lord]

People sleeping on pits ground game. It rivals Marths

 

[Shaya]

I'm playing a lot of Pit (well Dark Pit) because he feels a lot more like Marth does in this game. Definitely very competitive range (he does actually out range Marth on the ground, but our disjoints are a bit longer still).

 

[PK Gaming]

I did a quick scan through thread and noticed that a decent amount of posters were taking custom moves into account when talking about character viability. Am I to believe that competitive Smash 3DS will consider custom moves in default play?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well pit leans in alot for his pokes thus extending his hurtbox. Bad for footsies but fine for pressuring blocking opponents.

 

[Luco]

What is the new style of play for Pit? I've been versing some people and I get a sense of stuff he can do and at other times I feel like much of his stuff is so laggy and punishable.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I did a quick scan through thread and noticed that a decent amount of posters were taking custom moves into account when talking about character viability. Am I to believe that competitive Smash 3DS will consider custom moves in default play?

That's the hope, anyway.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Shaya]

What is the new style of play for Pit? I've been versing some people and I get a sense of stuff he can do and at other times I feel like much of his stuff is so laggy and punishable.

Pit's basically a reactive zoner, much like Marth is. Great dash attack out of shield for covering the mid to long range. Great kill power, great grab game.

I'm practising primarily against a Dark Pit as well; I'd say that match up almost feels like a ditto when playing Lucina. M/L vs [D]P is probably one of the most even match ups in the game.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Man, people play Dark Pit?

Anyway, anyone talking about custom moves as a balance consideration ( @ Shaya ) you might consider chilling out with that. It looks like the New Jersey Brought To You By Apex (tm) Smash Douche Squad is planning on banning them if my facebook feed is any indication.

It's really funny, actually; there's not a single custom move better than (nor as good as) Meta Knight's Tornado from Brawl, tbh. New Jersey; banning everything but Meta Knight, as usual.

 

[Emblem Lord]

eh? I been talking to my NJ brethren and they seem cool with custom moves. I think Richard(Keitaro) might be acting like an loser and wants to ban them which is stupid. I will talk to them about it cuz its dumb if they do.

Or you might be talking about Alex Strife who is not NJ but NY.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

eh? I been talking to my NJ brethren and they seem cool with custom moves. I think Richard(Keitaro) might be acting like an loser and wants to ban them which is stupid. I will talk to them about it cuz its dumb if they do.

Or you might be talking about Alex Strife who is not NJ but NY.

Most people are fine with them, if you want to keep them I'd talk with your local tournament organizers. They (unfortunately) have a lot of pull, if they use a ruleset for Apex points the country will follow them.

 

[Shaya]

I've seen things which may be aggressively as potent as Tornado, but no where near as good if shielded/has huge ways to punish them.

Like MK's tornado is genuinely still quite good in this game, it now hits a lot of times in a way enemies cannot DI/air dodge out at all for a lot of damage. Still beats most projectiles. But can I retreat it on shield? No. What happens if an opponent shields it? I take a smash attack basically.

I'm yet to see a custom special that isn't "bugged" (Yoshi) that doesn't have quite large drawbacks to their strengths. I'd say Marth's dash breaker has hitboxes like Brawl MK's tornado but is a dash + transcended priority like Brawl Falco's phantasm. However, it's a 20 frame start up move with a lot of time for punishment if you shield it, it's a set length thing so people can space optimally to deal with it. Still is an amazing move that allows me to break zoning/camping/keep away, but I cannot just "free win it", it shouldn't shut down any character unless they truly have suboptimal frame data.

 

[Emblem Lord]

juice.doom has been using them in his locals and hes been running weeklies since the japanase version came out. if IC's can be legal i dont see why custom moves cant be. It only makes the tiers closer from what I played and tested.

 

[Dekillsage]

customs are fun
fun/10
if they're banned I'm going to be so done with you guys p l e a s e

 

[Emblem Lord]

If they get banned **** it. Im not going to have a main. I will just counter pick all day and if I'm not sure who to pick, I will just bust out Sheik.

 

[HonorBasquiat]

I would love to hear a current analysis of Roslina ana Luma. The pros and cons, the best movies and biggest weakness, and why or why not she is a serious threat. They seem good, but I'm probably missing something.