Character Competitive Impressions

[AvariceX]

So, i've been using Link a bunch and improved quite a lot, however:

Any good Combos/Techniques to allow me to get some KO's? I usually rely on my sidesmash/Upsmash, but they're quite low range and if dodged allow them to punish me.

Also, Links Arrow+Boomerang game is quite good. Arrows force them to approach or shield, while the boomerang lets me move into a grab combo or a side smash.

This is probably better asked on the character-specific board for Link, but from what I played of Link I found that ftilt is a little more reliable than fsmash for kills. It kills around the same %'s and you don't have to deal with the silly weak first hit.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I can't judge WFT because I've yet to play against one and the character is so unique.

So much individual tech skill is needed with them, which makes it harder for me to see their full power. Same for the hitboxes.

It's such a personal adjustment which is why I'm more likely not seeing them played, they have a higher skill floor and s lot of it is personal to the character.

 

[ConeZ]

DACUS should remedy some of the difficulty of hitting it in it's intended situation. What's wrong with usmash not hitting next to her?



You can use her 12 frame landing lag airdodge/shield out of deep breathing though.



Eh, it's not terrible. Horizontal hoola hoops is a disgustingly good harassment tool, since she wraps herself in weird *** hitboxes.



SS and customs is amazing. Soccer ball can be controlled by timing though so a good wft would be able to use it in many ways, and the customs are all good as well.



She has 3 spikes (beach ball, dair, fair), and her custom options are all great. She can put on a ton of pressure compared to a lot of the cast with up-B and SS. The biggest problem is really just that she's awkward, but that can be fixed.

I honestly feel like WFT isn't that great much like others that have posted. I haven't had much trouble taking games off her with Falcon, and G&W feels like he straight up counters her because of the bucket and his vastly superior spacing options, and those are my mains.
I mean, I see how you say you can work around a character being awkward, but if you compare her small ass hitboxes to those of more respected characters, you realize, that she can easily be beaten and outspaced, and I don't think she really has that many great options overall.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

This is probably better asked on the character-specific board for Link, but from what I played of Link I found that ftilt is a little more reliable than fsmash for kills. It kills around the same %'s and you don't have to deal with the silly weak first hit.

FSmash seems to have a tipper sweetspot on the first hit that has legit KO power, I think. It's really weird since it almost feels random as to whether you get the high-damage, KO power hit or the weak hit that leads into the second hit.

Another Link trick: At certain percents on certain characters, a short-hop fast-falled late hit NAir can lead into a grab regardless of whether the foe shields or not. At really low percents, you can even do this with good spacing, but as the foe's percent rises you have to be increasingly risky with your NAir spacing to get it to work.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I can't judge WFT because I've yet to play against one and the character is so unique.

So much individual tech skill is needed with them, which makes it harder for me to see their full power. Same for the hitboxes.

It's such a personal adjustment which is why I'm more likely not seeing them played, they have a higher skill floor and s lot of it is personal to the character.

Honestly...I think you're overthinking the character.

WFT has a very standardized gameplan with relatively few gimmicks outside of her quirky airdodge and hitboxes that reach behind her.

Relatively simple but effective projectile zoning. SideB is also a projectile that has some underrated momentum utility. Recovery is predictable but rarely gimpable.

She's pretty much a jack of all trades character that functions in most situations but suffers from below average range and reliance on charge moves to be powerful.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Alright, so regarding Luma blocking projectiles for Rosalina, it's not as cut and dry as is being implied in this thread, time and time again. There's a very deep meta underneath it all, and I'm excited to see how it develops as our players progress in each matchup. Unfortunately, if Brawl was any indicator of how quickly players not using Rosalina will progress, I fear Rosalina's Luma-meta for the Rosalina player will develop significantly faster than the counter-play attached to it... but that's another topic altogether.

When it comes to RosaLuma vs projectiles, there are a lot of variables that comes into play during each interaction and who comes out on top. It's a very sweeping over-generalization to say "Luma blocks projectiles, making them useless." Yes, Luma is an incredibly useful tool to deal with projectiles, but it's by no stretch a zero-sum game.

A more accurate representation of Luma vs projectiles looks more like the following:

Luma acts similarly to Olimar's pikmin (at least in brawl) in that she has her own priority while being attached to the character. Luma has her own hitbox, her own hurtboxes, her own HP, which drops over time when she's hit throughout the match, etc. And without Luma, Rosalina is considerably weaker. Her zone of threat without the inclusion of Luma's additional hitboxes are both awkward for the player and abusable by the opponent.

Luma can't shield, or airdodge, or roll despite the cute stance she takes when Rosalina shields. :3 She takes damage, and will die after 52 total damage. Blocked projectiles lower Luma's health, and have an indirect impact on the game. The aforementioned impact being when Luma is inevitably killed. Afterwards, Rosalina is quite vulnerable for 8 seconds.
Even though blocked, many projectiles will desynch her from Rosalina, leading to a small time frame during which Rosalina is more vulnerable.

Luma blocks projectiles often times, but she's also got a small hurtbox. Often times projectiles will fly by her and have the chance to hit Rosalina's larger frame. Potentially, this forces the player to either account for that chance to hit her by shielding/airdodging/etc anyways. However, with time Rosalina players will learn to more precisely shield projectiles using Luma or avoid the projectile altogether so that Luma isn't hurt. It's a skill in itself to increase the block/dodge rate to 100% through w/e means- whether that's by jumping as a projectile is launched, spacing correctly so that the projectile and Luma line up, using neutral B, etc. This projectile blocking micro-meta is something both players have access to. It's not going to be completely one-sided. Every time Rosalina is forced to account for something, her overall option count is decreased. Patterns and other windows of opportunity, as tight a punish window they might have, will be exploitable.

Very good writeup and I agree with most of it. I just want to point out that even without Luma, Rosalina is still able to play a competent defensive game between her long range tilts, shield grabs, and Gravitational Pull forcing the opponent to approach her instead of vice versa. Her main weakness without Luma is a lack of KO power (except usmash) and something of a blind spot diagonally above her unless she's really good at using fair. Not to say she's not weaker without Luma, but she's not completely helpless.

The rest of what you say about projectiles still reducing her options is basically spot on.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Lol Diddy Kong got even better in Smash 4 than Brawl.
There are a few standouts in the game, but I feel that its pretty well balanced. I think Ganondorf (while nowhere near as good as his Melee incarnation) is not as bad as many people think. I see Rosaluma, Diddy Kong, Sheik, Lucario, Greninja and perhaps Sonic being the very best. They are just fundamentally faster and have better approach games than most of the other characters. Another thing I find important in this game is recovery. The ledges are like MRI machines, so I feel that which ever character has the greatest ledgesweetspot will also rise through the ranks of one of the better characters. That being said, many characters have absolutely ridiculous recoveries so I think onstage game will matter the most.

 

[Jahordon]

Lol Diddy Kong got even better in Smash 4 than Brawl.
There are a few standouts in the game, but I feel that its pretty well balanced. I think Ganondorf (while nowhere near as good as his Melee incarnation) is not as bad as many people think. I see Rosaluma, Diddy Kong, Sheik, Lucario, Greninja and perhaps Sonic being the very best. They are just fundamentally faster and have better approach games than most of the other characters. Another thing I find important in this game is recovery. The ledges are like MRI machines, so I feel that which ever character has the greatest ledgesweetspot will also rise through the ranks of one of the better characters. That being said, many characters have absolutely ridiculous recoveries so I think onstage game will matter the most.

Why do you see diddy as being so great? The bananas can get destroyed just by attacking them now, and is the rest of diddy's game really good enough to compete with the other characters you mentioned?

 

[Remzi]

Just for some perspective, guys, here is the first Brawl Tier list: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-official-sbr-brawl-tier-list-v1-0.192028/

Top
Meta Knight
Snake
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
R.O.B.

High
Marth
Wario
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Diddy
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Wolf

Middle
Toon Link
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Sheik

Low
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon

This was posted after we had the game, with ideal controls, for 6 months internationally. We're not even 2 weeks in, nothing is even close to solidified yet. Compared to the most recent Brawl tier list, here are some of the most noteworthy changes:

Ice Climbers (+11) (And yes, CGs were already known at this point)
Olimar (+15)
Dedede (-9)
Diddy (+8) (Originally ranked WORSE THAN DONKEY KONG)
G&W (-12)
R.O.B (-12)
ZSS (+12)
Sonic (+12)

So, just be warned, chances are we're gonna look back at a lot of the opinions that we have now and give them a good laugh later. That's not to say that they aren't worth discussing now, but lets not be so assumptive. And to give the guys who put this together in 08 some credit, most of they characters that they thought were flat out bad, still ended up being bad characters. But seeing as this game seems more balanced so far, whose to say where any character could end up.

 

[Terotrous]

So, just be warned, chances are we're gonna look back at a lot of the opinions that we have now and give them a good laugh later.

Well duh, that's the whole point of early tier lists. Note though that they did get Metaknight right from day 1.

 

[Jahordon]

Just for some perspective, guys, here is the first Brawl Tier list: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-official-sbr-brawl-tier-list-v1-0.192028/



This was posted after we had the game, with ideal controls, for 6 months internationally. We're not even 2 weeks in, nothing is even close to solidified yet. Compared to the most recent Brawl tier list, here are some of the most noteworthy changes:

Ice Climbers (+11) (And yes, CGs were already known at this point)
Olimar (+15)
Dedede (-9)
Diddy (+8) (Originally ranked WORSE THAN DONKEY KONG)
G&W (-12)
R.O.B (-12)
ZSS (+12)
Sonic (+12)

So, just be warned, chances are we're gonna look back at a lot of the opinions that we have now and give them a good laugh later. That's not to say that they aren't worth discussing now, but lets not be so assumptive. And to give the guys who put this together in 08 some credit, most of they characters that they thought were flat out bad, still ended up being bad characters. But seeing as this game seems more balanced so far, whose to say where any character could end up.

My biggest fear is spending all my time learning a character that seems good now but will be totally destroyed when better understood. I was placing in locals with G&W in Brawl for the first year, but after that, I could barely make top 20.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Just for some perspective, guys, here is the first Brawl Tier list: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-official-sbr-brawl-tier-list-v1-0.192028/



This was posted after we had the game, with ideal controls, for 6 months internationally. We're not even 2 weeks in, nothing is even close to solidified yet. Compared to the most recent Brawl tier list, here are some of the most noteworthy changes:

Ice Climbers (+11) (And yes, CGs were already known at this point)
Olimar (+15)
Dedede (-9)
Diddy (+8) (Originally ranked WORSE THAN DONKEY KONG)
G&W (-12)
R.O.B (-12)
ZSS (+12)
Sonic (+12)

So, just be warned, chances are we're gonna look back at a lot of the opinions that we have now and give them a good laugh later. That's not to say that they aren't worth discussing now, but lets not be so assumptive. And to give the guys who put this together in 08 some credit, most of they characters that they thought were flat out bad, still ended up being bad characters. But seeing as this game seems more balanced so far, whose to say where any character could end up.

This is very true. However this game is very similar to Brawl fundamentally, but we have more toys to play with. Characters like Diddy Kong are already fundamentally stronger than most other characters, and considering his meta is already extremely well developed in Brawl, he was nerfed in a few areas, but he has been given good hitstun on several of his "string starters/extender" moves in Brawl, making then true combos now. Also the whole dash dancing discovery and the fleshed out pivots make this a lot different. Other characters are fundamentally better than others. I have been calling Sheik's Bouncing Fish the new Shuttle Loop ever since it was announced in April. If anything, I see Bowser not being as good as everyone is calling him out to be, and I can see some of the faster characters in the game taking his places.

 

[RWB]

Well duh, that's the whole point of early tier lists. Note though that they did get Metaknight right from day 1.

It was very close to being Snake on the top of that list. Snake dominated early tournaments until Mew2King went on his his one year dominion with Metaknight.

 

[Terotrous]

It was very close to being Snake on the top of that list. Snake dominated early tournaments until Mew2King went on his his one year dominion with Metaknight.

True, but Snake is very good in Brawl too. The person they were the most wrong about was Olimar (I'm not sure how, IMO it was pretty evident how powerful he was right from the start).

 

[AvariceX]

The character we were most wrong about in Brawl was Zelda, she dropped something like 16 spots. At the start everyone was just really worried about Olimar's recovery in a game where the king of gimping was far and away the best character. It was really obvious to me in the first week that 1) MK was the best character and 2) Olimar would be the best if he had good recovery like MK, but it wasn't clear how bad that recovery would hold him back (as it turns out, not much).

A lot of players (well-known, respectable players) are starting to say Diddy is #1 (Ally made a quip about going from being a top 10 contender with Shulk to being a national threat overnight with Diddy), but honestly that's a good sign to me because Diddy is not that much better than the rest of the cast from what we've seen (if he even is #1).

 

[KlefkiHolder]

True, but Snake is very good in Brawl too. The person they were the most wrong about was Olimar (I'm not sure how, IMO it was pretty evident how powerful he was right from the start).

No it wasn't. I mean, the potential was there, it could be seen, but no one came close to unlocking it early on. You're not going to rank something super high off of potential as that is not indicative of the meta. That would just be silly.

Edit: the above post also has some good points, ones better than mine.

Also Melee ICs and Puff are good examples of characters that took time.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It still destroys my soul that people thought zss was worse than zelda

I lot of it, I can totally understand. GaW would see utterly absurd to me in 2008, for example.

But man ZERO SUIT? seriously? I can't understand why people ever thought she was like 25th in the game, to this day

 

[AvariceX]

I thought ZSS was high/top tier in the beginning, but I also thought Link was mid/high-mid....dem Izaw and Claw combo videos.

I'm excited to see combo videos for this game start coming out, since you know we actually have combos this time.

 

[Remzi]

Well duh, that's the whole point of early tier lists. Note though that they did get Metaknight right from day 1.

More like from day 90. People thought Snake was the best for the first few months of the game, until M2K started tearing **** up with MK.

 

[RWB]

Is there any character Zero Suit Samus doesn't do well against? Even the matches against other top tier candidates look like very even odds. Any character that stands out as problematic?

 

[Tagxy]

More like from day 90. People thought Snake was the best for the first few months of the game, until M2K started tearing **** up with MK.

Bengals pls (December 2007)

lol, youre more or less right. But I still think this is hilarious. Also makes me glad that characters strength seems more controversial now than it did in the beginning of Brawl.

Also you forgot Zelda on your list of changes. Lady dropped 16 spots, think that was the biggest change.

I totally disagree, I think a meaningful custom move definitely should have the potential to change the matchup. That's why you're seeing that there's very few situations where there's more than one viable set and that there's almost no situations why you'd want to counterpick based on the options your opponent chose.

Wobuffet Tree is basically the only custom move that really changes the game, the others are all just the same thing but a little better or worse or they're just flat out useless. I'd want every single custom move to have some interesting applications and be a potential option you'd have to think about when playing against that character.

Sorry to bring up an old topic, but the alternative couldve been much worse. If custom moves got too crazy it was more likely theyd be outright banned. Right now it seems borderline in favor of having them legal. I also think its nothing to sneeze at if a custom move makes an unviable character viable even if its their only good one.

 

[DanGR]

Very good writeup and I agree with most of it. I just want to point out that even without Luma, Rosalina is still able to play a competent defensive game between her long range tilts, shield grabs, and Gravitational Pull forcing the opponent to approach her instead of vice versa. Her main weakness without Luma is a lack of KO power (except usmash) and something of a blind spot diagonally above her unless she's really good at using fair. Not to say she's not weaker without Luma, but she's not completely helpless.

The rest of what you say about projectiles still reducing her options is basically spot on.

Thanks. In my opinion, that blindspot isn't as bad as the range decrease overall. Most aerials aren't that great in this game against grounded opponents anyways. The ones with long range but considerable landing lag are better as a potential threat rather than something that will be used to approach a grounded opponent much of the time. Obviously outliers exist, but I think you get my drift. Not to mention some other things, like Rosalina's own pretty good aerials, excellent fox trot, roll, and dash attack which help alleviate some pressure coming from the air. That dash, turn around ftilt tho. hnng.

 

[Luco]

Who are the biggest competitive players for R&L atm? I'm horrible at them because it feels like if i'm separated from Luma and the opponent gets between us then I can't recall Luma back and punish them for their positioning. =/

 

[Shaya]

Well, I suppose what had people think ZSS was terrible was because she didn't have perceived OoS options, in a meta where everyone thought shielding was broken, and everything was baiting people into hitting your shield for a punish.

ZSS mains focused solely on down smash, and with this whole "long range, but completely useless short range, requires an easy to avoid move to do anything, Mario beats ZSS because he's safe on her shield". That was the perception, and it seemed pretty accurate at the time. Armor pieces were considered a gimmick as well.

ZSS mains went on to develop Jab1 hijinx, laser set ups, buffered dash attack options, power shielding uair and up tilt and a dominating first stock with armor pieces. Eventually power shield down smash was shown to be potent against nearly all the high tier characters due to it's range and respect the opponent had to give it, and ZSS' game play and style became very low commitment in general with huge payoffs on punishments that slowly but surely became not so hard to accomplish.

 

[KingBroly]

The biggest issue I see with ZSS is her Down+B when it hits an opponent. It's a HUGE recovery time for that move from what I've seen and I can't seem to figure out how to cancel out of that animation, assuming there is a way.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Alright, I haven't seen like any mention of this guy since release so.... Thoughts on Mega Man () ?

I know that during the demo the general consensus was that he was very underwhelming as a character, but no one has talked about him much since. I've messed around with him some and he actually is quite decent. Got some great mid-range options, good weight, fine aerials, but overall he seems average. Not too good, but not too bad. However, I haven't used him enough to form a full opinion, so I was just wondering what others thought.

Also Kirby () is another character who'd I say is very decent, not too good, not too bad. I haven't touched him much either so I'm looking to get some opinions of him too.

And finally, Mii Swordfighter () is pretty garbage imo. The only character that I would classify as just straight-up bad, but again, I haven't used him enough to fully say that and would like to see some discussion on that.

 

[ConeZ]

Alright, I haven't seen like any mention of this guy since release so.... Thoughts on Mega Man () ?

I know that during the demo the general consensus was that he was very underwhelming as a character, but no one has talked about him much since. I've messed around with him some and he actually is quite decent. Got some great mid-range options, good weight, fine aerials, but overall he seems average. Not too good, but not too bad. However, I haven't used him enough to form a full opinion, so I was just wondering what others thought.

Also Kirby () is another character who'd I say is very decent, not too good, not too bad. I haven't touched him much either so I'm looking to get some opinions of him too.

And finally, Mii Swordfighter () is pretty garbage imo. The only character that I would classify as just straight-up bad, but again, I haven't used him enough to fully say that and would like to see some discussion on that.

People haven't talked about them because they are nothing special. :x

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Megaman is so annoying to play against but you still don't really lose to him. He's like Brawl Yoshi or something.

 

[KingBroly]

Mii Brawler is legit though.

Mega Man is the Dan of the Smash Bros. Scrub Tier. But at least Dan is ridiculous and fun to play as.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Also Kirby () is another character who'd I say is very decent, not too good, not too bad. I haven't touched him much either so I'm looking to get some opinions of him too.

Decent how?
Unless I missed something I don't see Kirby in a good light. I've put in a couple of runs with him and am displeased. His tilts are good, but in general Kirby drastically lacks Range. WFT without the zoning potential. His specials are nothing to write home about and are all particularly punishable. He doesnt have jigglypuffs air speed. The aerials have value but their range with his aerial movement significantly holds him back, the majority of the time playing Kirby is spent wondering why I don't just grab puff and get much of the same.

IMO Kirby's going to find it hard to operate with the tools he has. Despite the positive qualities of his tilts and aerials.

 

[Terotrous]

I played some Mega Man yesterday and my thoughts on him are the same as the first time I saw him played in tournament. He may be decent overall but he requires you to work really hard for every single hit, let alone for kills. I think he's just a character that very few people are going to want to master because there's a lot of characters who can achieve the same results for much less work (Sheik, Yoshi, ZSS, etc).

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

I actually think Wii Fit Trainer could be among the very worst in the game. Very awkward hitboxes [Up smash doesn't even hit opponents right next to her], cannot kill unless she has breathing done [which is a pain to pull off during a 1v1 match], her recovery is very mediocre [a mix of horizontal and vertical, both short], sun salutation is pretty great, but soccer ball is not very accurate...there's just nothing there's outstanding about WFT to me. I think she's pretty bad next to Olimar and Charizard for me.

1. Work around the awkwardness my friend. It is very possible. She'll have a high learning curve since you'll need to know the placement of these "awkward" hitboxes. Up smash does hit beside her just on certain characters if I'm not mistaken. Also there's nothing wrong if it doesnt. Not the end of the world.
2. She CAN in fact kill. Bair, Dair, Uair, Ftilt, Forward smash, Header spike & SS are all kill moves for her. DB just helps her kill a little earlier (maybe a lot; it's debatable). It's also not hard to pull off cause the first DB is very quick and you can cancel it. You can do many things to pull off a succesful DB like doing one offstage, in the air or when the opponent is offstage.
3. Her recovery is average. Mashing B makes her go faster and higher (literally nobody knows this sigh) and she can wall jump which will definetly help her recovery.
4. SS is great and so are the customs for it!
5. Soccer ball can be angled and can help with mixups. It can be used to edgeguard while also providing ledge shenanigans offstage. Customs for soccerball are soooooo good.
6. 4 spikes, ISA frames on Dtilt, pivot Ftilt (super fast), DACUS, invincibility on Up smash (her hands), pit/grounded jab combo (first part of jab it's behind her), great air game, great air and ground movement speed, best crouch in the game (her hurtbox becomes super small and she can crawl), throws have good angles on them (Dthrow almost always guarantees a Bair follow-up), good setups that can lead to combos, different properties on attacks (hand of Ftilt pushes forward while foot launches upward & foot of Down smash has more knockback than hand), can cancel idle animation of Dtilt (the crouch) into ANY other attack. Great customs.

Maybe if you bothered to give WFT the time of day and actually went into the lab with her you'd see that yes she has faults but also has a lot of things that will improve her meta in the future. You're ruling her out way too early by already claiming her to be among the worst. It's too early for that. I don't see her going down past high mid-tier. She can and will (mark my words) hold her own as the meta progresses.

 

[san.]

I think Ike is one of the ones who will vary by matchup. I think Eruption 2 and 3 will prove dominant (mostly 2, probably), Quick Draw 2, Aether 2, and Counter 1 and 3. I'm unconvinced that Eruption 1 or Quick Draw 3 will ultimately prove the best option for any/many matchups, but it's possible.

san? Thoughts?

Ike's vary by matchup, what other custom moves he's using, and personal preference. I suppose it's more up to preference since Ike never had the opportunity to use his specials offensively all that much until this iteration, and many are comfortable to use the ones that complements their playstyle. None of them are that bad except for Counter3.

After using these specials for the last week and a half or so, here are my overall thoughts on some of his best customs, and I agree that it's 2,2,2,2 though all of his defaults bar Eruption have some traits that may be preferable in other situations.

Eruption 2- Tempest:
I think this is his best custom. The windbox is very powerful and completely shuts down recoveries that don't sweetspot the edge correctly or covered by projectiles. The longer it's charged, the larger the radius on the windbox and the longer it lasts. With just this, it's a powerful gimmick, but it's true utility lies offstage. You can spam it offstage with impunity because it lifts you up the longer you charge or if you're rising upon release while blowing away those nearby. This allows you to use it 3-5 times offstage before returning back and allows you to mix it up with your own aerials. Double jump + eruption2 doubles its height, so you can go quite far offstage and spam windboxes and aerials at your opponent. It also has an okay-ish hitbox underneath to retaliate against other attacks and tethers.

Once it's nearly fully charged and beyond, super armor activates upon release, making it even more useful. You can shield and air dodge the windbox, but a fully charged blast lasts longer than the air dodge, making it a little difficult to avoid in some situations when launched in the air.

I truly think that Eruption2 is a dumb/unfair move. If it doesn't gimp, it's highly disruptive and at least sets up for various other attacks and methods.

Eruption 3 has a huge and long-lasting hitbox, and I still think that Eruption 2 is going to be more useful on average.

Quick Draw 2- Close Combat:
People mentioned that it has more cooldown, but that's a little incorrect. There are lingering hitboxes almost until you're able to act again when used on the ground, dealing 3-7% and knocking the opponent slightly behind Ike. It also appears to be faster than QD1 and active for a farther distance. There's really not much to say. It's chargeable and holdable, beats most aerials and specials, beats or clanks with most grounded attacks (if you can time such a thing), and can trade with a good amount of attacks that usually beat it.

Aether2- Aether Drive:
I think this disappointed me a little bit with its vertical reach, but it has some nice properties. Mixed with Eruption 2 and QD 1 or 2, you can attack offstage and recover without worry because of the many high priority/super armor recovery options. It also combos at mid to middle-high %s, dealing a notable 27%. It can be combo'd into from nair at mid % depending on the enemy's size and rage/VI for ~33-34 damage.

Counter2- Paralyzing Counter:
I've never been much of a counter person, so a really situational one that leads to a partially charged upsmash or grab is much more valuable to me than the default despite it being overall buffed. There are times where I'll probably never use it in a match, but a threat of a KO after 100 with a single read on any hit is too good to pass up that implicit danger.

To go through the other ones quickly:
-Eruption2 is weak against teleporting, projectiles, and DK's upB, while Eruption3 excels in most edgeguarding situation at the cost of power and a % penalty when halfway charged and over.

-Aether3 is quick and deals great shield damage. It's spammable against opponents in the air and retains some super armor even after landing. This is good as a quicker option against gimpers, while aether2 can be good against everyone. If you have Aether3, you may want QD1 for an easier recovery or QD2 if you're confident enough.

-Quick Draw 3 is just another kill move available that can be easier to use than counter. If you don't use QD much to recover, it's a good option. It's also decent against those who like to gimp with aerials since QD3 will super armor any of their attempts. You're almost guaranteed the edge if you're close enough.

-Counter1 is what it is. It's quicker in this game and can kill at high percents when countering smashes. The existence of an easy counter option may be more comfortable than the tougher read that Counter2 requires. You could also argue that the initial frames are the most important anyways and the lingering counter active frames are lost against a good player.

 

[OldShadow00]

How does Marth stack up to the rest of the cast? I feel like he is at a disadvantage against most of the characters in the game. I main both Mario/Marth and I seem to have more success with Mario. Mario is fun to use, but he is definitely not as good as other characters like Rosalina, and Pit.

 

[Signia]

Why do you see diddy as being so great? The bananas can get destroyed just by attacking them now, and is the rest of diddy's game really good enough to compete with the other characters you mentioned?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOmXa_ZWyzI

 

[FierceFox]

I'm fairly certain that Zelda, King Dedede, and Sonic will be within the top 7 when all is said and done.

I can also say with some confidence that I believe Rosalina and Little Mac will NOT be within the top 7. Rosalina is limited a lot more than people know. When firing off Luma with neutral B, she is locked in her position. This makes her extremely predictable. I can't begin to tell you how many punishes I've gotten off her trying to position Luma. Also, it's quite obvious that Little Mac has trouble with recovering. That's his biggest flaw as he's easy to gimp, but he also has terrible aerials. Just approach him from above or be ready to shield when he approaches and you're basically Mike Tyson to him.

As far as Jiggs, I believe she's definitely a competitive character in this game, which is AWESOME for those who mained her in Melee. Her rest is easy to land and kills at about 70%. I don't think she'll break the top 7, but I think she'll be at least in the middle if not a bit higher.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm fairly certain that Zelda, King Dedede, and Sonic will be within the top 7 when all is said and done

I respect your opinion about Zelda and Dedede being in top 7. Sort of.

Diddy's amazing btw. Easily one of the best characters right now. All his normals are just so good >__>

 

[ChikoLad]

Just a question, since Luma VS Projectiles was discussed a lot:

People are aware that a fully charged Luma Shot negates and goes through almost every projectile in the game, right? And will hit the opponent (KO'ing them too if at decent percent) during their cool down from their projectile?

Uncharged Luma Shot also goes through some projectiles.

Didn't see that mentioned anywhere, but it really shakes up how Luma is used against projectiles. I can't tell you the amount of times this feature has won me a match, especially against characters like Samus, Link, and Mega Man, who use lots of projectiles.

It also can go through some melee attacks, I believe. Fully charged Luma Shot seems to have really high priority, and he doesn't seem to take damage unless that priority is broken.

The range of Gravitational Pull is also big enough to potentially protect a wandering Luma.

 

[RWB]

And finally, Mii Swordfighter () is pretty garbage imo. The only character that I would classify as just straight-up bad, but again, I haven't used him enough to fully say that and would like to see some discussion on that.

I've played him a fair bit, and I agree for the most part. He has some awkward hitboxes, his recovery is either bad or just predictable, he can't really pile on the damage, and he has issues killing- FSmash is his only decent kill move outside Airborne Assault, I believe, and both have major drawbacks. F-Smash is a bit slow to come out and has notable cooldown. AA has the special fall problem, andis also rather unsafe on guard. Still, AA packs a ton of punch...
I would say one great thing about him is Gale Strike, though. It thwarts other projectiles, can push the enemy, and is decent at doing damage, and it's also a decent projectile in it's own right.

 

[Berserker.]

It also can go through some melee attacks, I believe. Fully charged Luma Shot seems to have really high priority, and he doesn't seem to take damage unless that priority is broken.

Some melee attacks? Like what? From which character?

Because the melee attacks I've been using (Shulk main) haven't been outprioritized

I don't think Dan mentioned the luma shot in his analysis but it's not like you can spam it all the time