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Character Competitive Impressions

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ChikoLad

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Some melee attacks? Like what? From which character?

Because the melee attacks I've been using (Shulk main) haven't been outprioritized

I don't think Dan mentioned the luma shot in his analysis but it's not like you can spam it all the time
When I say some, I really mean "some". I think it's just weaker ones. Some jabs and such.

Still can useful though, and fully charged Luma Shot is surprisingly easy to use regularly and get a hit, since it doesn't take too long to charge, and you can use short hopping to move while charging (something not many charge projectiles can do).
 
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Ah **** it.


Basically, the luma's useful against projectiles but anyway, I'll just leave this quote here
Yes, Luma is an incredibly useful tool to deal with projectiles, but it's by no stretch a zero-sum game.
 
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ChikoLad

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I was just pointing out another application Luma has against projectiles, since it wasn't mentioned.
 

~ Gheb ~

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I have a feeling that Rosalina might become this game's equivalent to MK. Could easily be that her worst matchups will be even. Right now I can't see any character being better than her or having an advantage against her.

And whoever invented her nair and dash attack must've been on drugs. That stuff is ridiculous.

:059:
 
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Just saying but I still think Rosalina is incredibly strong but she isn't without flaws. She doesn't seem to have any match ups where she'd have trouble against. Regardless, she's really really good

If she does end up being really ridiculous, it's something we'll have to deal with then. Unless, something is done about it
 

ChikoLad

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I have a feeling that Rosalina might become this game's equivalent to MK. Could easily be that her worst matchups will be even. Right now I can't see any character being better than her or having an advantage against her.

And whoever invented her nair and dash attack must've been on drugs. That stuff is ridiculous.

:059:
Well the latter is at least easy enough to punish if it misses.

But I do agree that she's one character who as the POTENTIAL to be broken. But I definitely think she is not that yet.

Unlike Meta Knight, people will need to put a lot of time into Rosalina to get good with her, regardless. I think she's top tier material, without a doubt. However, she also has limitless possibilities it seems, meaning players have an ever evolving meta to keep up with.

She's a stressful character to main in a lot of ways.
 

RWB

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Just a question, since Luma VS Projectiles was discussed a lot:

People are aware that a fully charged Luma Shot negates and goes through almost every projectile in the game, right? And will hit the opponent (KO'ing them too if at decent percent) during their cool down from their projectile?

Uncharged Luma Shot also goes through some projectiles.

Didn't see that mentioned anywhere, but it really shakes up how Luma is used against projectiles. I can't tell you the amount of times this feature has won me a match, especially against characters like Samus, Link, and Mega Man, who use lots of projectiles.
Have you tested how the Mii Swordfighter's Gale Strike effects Luma? That could be big for the Swordfighter vs Rosalina matchup...
 

KlefkiHolder

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Yeah I don't think Rose will reach MK levels. That said, I do think that she is the best in the game. Luma leads to some insane gameplay, but to fully utilize her it requires a lot if knowledge of the character. I would compare her more to Melee Fox, amazing matchup spread, very top tier, but also very technical to use at a high level. This is all just me speculating, though, and the game isn't out for long enough to come close to backing this up, but imo it is a very real possibility for Rose. But yeah, as for her being MK, she is far too technical and not as dominant to become MK.

Edit: also worth mentioning that I don't think Rose will be as dominant as Melee Fox is either. Just if we're comparing, she would fall in line with Fox more.
 
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ChikoLad

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Have you tested how the Mii Swordfighter's Gale Strike effects Luma? That could be big for the Swordfighter vs Rosalina matchup...
No, most of my testing has just been experimenting in For Glory, so unfortunately, no Miis or customs. Can't get anyone to play with me right now either (and I am just about to do the college work I have been procrastinating :V).

A shame for Rosalina too, as well as the Miis. She's one of the best characters for customs, since none of her custom moves are duds (just match-up/preference dependent), and equipment can do some crazy stuff to her. I already have two really cool custom builds for her, but can't make much use of them. I really wish there was a custom lobby online, in "With Anyone". Call it "For Science". :V
 

RWB

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No, most of my testing has just been experimenting in For Glory, so unfortunately, no Miis or customs. Can't get anyone to play with me right now either (and I am just about to do the college work I have been procrastinating :V).

A shame for Rosalina too, as well as the Miis. She's one of the best characters for customs, since none of her custom moves are duds (just match-up/preference dependent), and equipment can do some crazy stuff to her. I already have two really cool custom builds for her, but can't make much use of them. I really wish there was a custom lobby online, in "With Anyone". Call it "For Science". :V
I could probably do the testing with you, but since you're busy, just send me a PM when you are not! I'll PM you my friendcode.
 

GalaxyWaffles

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For Mii Fighter there's no good reason to have a "tall mii" aside from having bigger hitboxes on your attacks. Small seems to be the way to go guys.
 
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For Mii Fighter there's no good reason to have a "tall mii" aside from having bigger hitboxes on your attacks. Small seems to be the way to go guys.
If I recall correctly, I think we're only gonna stick to average sized Miis

There was a thread somewhere about it
 
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Thinkaman

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I don't want to derail this into a FC thread, but I do think the discussion will elevate if we play each other. :)

Anyone here can feel free to PM me for games, I have a really flexible schedule.


As for topics at hand, I too am consistently unimpressed by :4miisword:.

I find :4megaman: surprisingly good. I originally had the stance of "Oh, yeah, well he's not that great, but maybe someone will figure out how to use him" without really believing it. But... No character has improved more for me since Day 1 than Mega Man.

Metal Blade is definitely one of the most underrated moves in the game, and discovering things like Metal Blade to u-tilt has made him a lot more attractive. "Oh, they can catch your Metal Blade." So? What are they going to do, hold it so you can't use it? They just traded their entire normal moveset for one of your projectiles.

It turns out Leaf Shield is hilarious for gimping, and pellets really constrain options--we'll see how the c-stick works with that them.


My impression of :4robinm: continues to increase. I still think :4wiifit: is formidable as well.

I feel better about :4dedede: than I did, but am still skeptical. Gordos simply do not seem like a great projectile at high level play, and it's a tool he relies on in many matchups.

:4villager: feels solid. Maybe some bad matchups, but most likely plenty of good ones too. I have trouble foreseeing Villager being considered a bad character.



As for Brawl, before the US launch we were all sure that Marth, Toon Link, and Olimar were broken. Then the game came out and we realized the error of our ways; the best characters were obviously Wolf and Snake. Meta Knight was considered a top contender after like a month, and 6 months in was considered slightly superior to Snake at the top of the tier list. Olimar was discounted because no one was really getting good results with him yet. "Oddballs" like ZSS had yet to come into their own.
 

ChikoLad

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For Mii Fighter there's no good reason to have a "tall mii" aside from having bigger hitboxes on your attacks. Small seems to be the way to go guys.
Does it not effect their weight too, though?
Unless that's just defined by their "fat".
 

ChikoLad

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what are peoples thoughts on kirby

i personally think he's kind of underwhelming
For the most part I like him better since he feels a lot more fluid than before.

I don't like how Hammer works in the air now, though. Kills all of your momentum, making it harder to hit with. I loved following up into that move in Brawl, but you cannot really do that here.
 

ChronoPenguin

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The weight difference is negligible.

Mii sword fighter seems meant for speed equip which isn't legal so he won't perform well.

I don't think Kirby is good. I've put time into him, he has been underwhelming. Good tilts, bad range. Bad range is basically the name of the game with him, bad range and laggy specials. Just landing inhale, one of his defining mechanics is a problem and quite a few transforms suck. None of this is really new either, same Kirby problems, better opponents
 
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Tony_

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I have a feeling that Rosalina might become this game's equivalent to MK. Could easily be that her worst matchups will be even. Right now I can't see any character being better than her or having an advantage against her.

And whoever invented her nair and dash attack must've been on drugs. That stuff is ridiculous.

:059:
Anyone with a reflector and/or speed can pretty much get in on Rosalina. Characters without though? Good luck. She's IS top tier, but she's no MK. Luma is what makes her ridiculous along with Nair and dash attack.

Also, IMO, Ganon is a lot better this time around, He'll easily be a high tier like he was in Melee.
 
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ChikoLad

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Anyone with a reflector and/or speed can pretty much get in on Rosalina.
Can't go in depth about this right now, but this isn't an absolute truth at all.

Mario has both a reflector and decent speed, but I still think the match up is well in Rosalina's favour, for example.

Just wanted to chime in on that quickly.

Only real problematic match-up for Rosie right now is ZSS in my opinion, and maybe Ness and Lucario, but even that is manageable.
 
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JamietheAuraUser

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And finally, Mii Swordfighter (:4miisword:) is pretty garbage imo. The only character that I would classify as just straight-up bad, but again, I haven't used him enough to fully say that and would like to see some discussion on that.
WARNING: Wall of Text™ ahead!

The Mii Swordfighter's major problem from what I've played is a reliance on perfect spacing. Everything the Swordfighter does is super punishable on perfect shield or whiff. A perfectly medium-sized Mii Swordfighter has great reach on many moves coupled with decently quick startup and solid damage output, but hefty ending lag and frequently underwhelming disjoint for a sword-wielder. All information listed below (damage values, range approximations, etc.) are for a Mii Swordfighter of perfectly medium build with no custom equipment. Smash Attack damage values listed are for uncharged Smash Attacks. (Multiply by 1.398 to get the damage output of the charged version.)

A medium-build Swordfighter has a slightly underwhelming dash speed, probably a little faster than Link's and the slowest of the Mii Fighter classes, seemingly even weaker than that of the Gunner. Its walk speed is fairly brisk, however, making spacing somewhat easier to accomplish. The Swordfighter has a particularly laggy run-stop and dash-stop, but good traction. The time after stopping from a run or dash during which your only possible action is a dash attack is deceptively long. The Swordfighter cannot get any actual use out of a fox-trot as a result of this trait.

A Swordfighter's midair movement and physics feel strikingly similar to Link's (and thus, deceptively weaker than one might expect when first learning the character), although it generally has slightly greater aerial mobility than Link himself in both horizontal and vertical respects. Notably, the Swordfighter has worse jump height, midair jump height, and aerial mobility than the Gunner, and is also the only class of Mii Fighter that is unable to wall-jump. If playing a Swordfighter, stick to your spacing game and pace your approaches; you aren't going to be leaping wildly around the battlefield either for offence or defence most of the time, barring special moves and a strong commitment. While you have greater agility than Link, you'll probably find yourself wishing you had his Hylian Shield to deal with projectiles for you.

DTilt is Marth's but with longer range (since the Swordfighter doesn't tilt the sword in a weird swipe thing like Smash 4 Marth does) and no tipper. As a result, it's pretty freakin' awesome. Probably comes out the fastest out of any of the Swordfighter's ground moves and also probably one of its safest pokes. Low damage though, and of course it has no vertical reach to speak of. Deals 6% with strong diagonal upward knockback that can send just about anyone into tumble from 0%.

Jab is pretty slow to come out compared to many other jabs. I've seen CPUs sidestep- or roll-dodge it reliably. It has one thing going for it though: Jab cancelling. You can't combo into tilts out of Jab 1 or Jab 2, but you can pull out some useful strings with it or punish a roll-around by jabbing in front and FTilting behind. The full jab sequence seems to combo pretty reliably and deals a very solid 12% total. Jab 2 has slightly less horizontal and vertical reach than Jab 1, while Jab 3 has the greatest reach horizontally and similar vertical reach to Jab 1, though it also moves your hurtbox forward. While its damage is solid and it has pretty decent reach for a jab, the launch angle and power of the third hit coupled with its endlag means you won't really be able to get any follow-ups off of it while it also won't KO the opponent at anything remotely resembling a reasonable percent (it still doesn't KO at 185%). On top of that, since it sends the foe primarily upward it also won't keep them off of you for very long, although it does buy you a bit of space.

UTilt is visually similar to Link's. Compared to Link's UTilt, it has a wider arc that grants it significantly wider horizontal reach and seems significantly faster to come out, but deals less damage, hitting for only 7%. It's a nice, quick anti-air move and is decent for juggling, although it doesn't seem to actually be able to true-combo into itself.

FTilt has rather greater reach than it looks like it does, although the amount of actual disjoint is still very lacking for a sword move. The Mii Swordfighter makes a quick diagonal slice in front while leaning forward. It lacks anything resembling decent vertical reach, and while it is fairly quick to come out a foe who predicts it (or a CPU with 1-frame reaction time) can stuff it with a quick jab (or the first hit of Marth's/Lucina's Dancing Blade) due to how much it moves your hurtbox forward. Between the sword and the lean forward, it out-ranges the FTilts of most unarmed characters (as well as Game & Watch and Meta Knight). On the other hand, it has enough endlag to be very easily punishable on reaction and your hurtbox remains shifted forward in the foe's face for quite some time. You could whiff an FTilt on Ganondorf by a few pixels and eat an FSmash on reaction. The attack does 12% damage and can, when fresh, usually KO midweights in the range of 145% (post-hit) if you have stage control (in other words, if you pressure the foe towards edge and launch them from there).

FSmash visually resembles the first hit of Link's FSmash, though has greater minimum damage and greater KO power on the whole. The attack has quite a bit of reach and comes out pretty quickly for the amount of reach it has, though if predicted (or fighting a CPU with frame-1 reaction time) you could find the attack stuffed by a faster FTilt or the first hit of Marth/Lucina's Dancing Blade, as it does move your hurtbox forward significantly. The closer to the tip of the blade you strike the foe, the more damage and knockback it causes. On foes with medium-to-low traction and ignoring tether-grabs and projectiles, hitting with the very tip is safe on shield if not perfect-shielded due to the sheer amount of shield-push it causes. This attack has very, very good reach, as a medium-build Swordfighter's blade is longer than both Link's Master Sword and Marth's/Lucina's Falchion (this puts your hurtbox farther from the foe than Link's is in his FSmash, although his still has greater overall reach due to his larger size allowing him to take a bigger step forward). Again, though, the endlag on this attack is thoroughly punishable and it leaves your hurtbox much closer to the foe during its endlag. Whiffing it or having it perfect-shielded is easily punishable with seemingly everything short of a Warlock Punch. The Swordfighter is able to stutter-step slightly to give the attack slightly greater range. If it is in keeping with the physics of the Brawler, a smaller Mii with faster ground speed will be able to stutter-step farther. The closest (weakest) hit deals 14% and KOs Mario at 138% (post-hit) from the centre of FD with no VI (tested in Training, so no freshness bonus or Rage Effect), while the farthest (strongest) hit deals 16% and KOs Mario at 126% (post-hit) from the centre of FD with no VI (tested in Training, so no freshness bonus or Rage Effect).

USmash is visually similar to Pit's or Meta Knight's USmash, but isn't identical to either of them. The Swordfighter sweeps up from in front and leaps to perform three overhead slashes. The move as a whole has greater vertical reach than UTilt, but less disjoint. It also lacks in horizontal reach. Despite the aforementioned trait, this attack does the most damage when you land it on a foe directly in front of the Swordfighter; the initial upward sweep of the blade has its own hitbox that drags the foe into the triple slash overhead. The first of the overhead slashes is slower to come out compared to many of the Swordfighter's moves, but the move also has noticeably less endlag than the Swordfighter's other Smash Attacks. Uncharged, the attack deals 17% damage if you land all 4 hits, and KOs Mario off the top of FD at 130% (post-hit) with no vertical VI. (Tested in Training, so no freshness bonus or Rage Effect. Training CPUs appear to maybe VI vertical hits slightly, but KO percent was consistent across multiple tests regardless.)

DSmash is pretty bad, honestly. Like most DSmashes in Smash 4, it has worse reach in front or behind than the DTilt has in front. It has the most noticeable startup of the Swordfighter's Smash Attacks, probably as a result of its low reach, which is probably roughly equivalent to the Swordfighter's Jab 1 in terms of horizontal distance from the Swordfighter while being roughly equivalent to DTilt in vertical reach. The move also has absolutely obscene endlag, possibly even greater than that of FSmash. The first hit does not lead into the second hit (unlike the Gunner's), and the second hit comes out noticeably later than the first hit (unlike, for example, Meta Knight's). The overall distance covered by this move is low enough that some characters can get behind you with a forward roll from outside the first hit's range, and end up outside the second hit's range. The hit in front deals 12%, and the one behind deals 15%. The hit in front KOs Mario from the centre of FD at 190% (post-hit) with no VI (tested in Training, so no freshness bonus or Rage Effect). The hit behind KOs Mario from the centre of FD at 161% (post-hit) with no VI (tested in Training, so no freshness bonus or Rage Effect).

Dash Attack is a simple stab forward. It has good reach and comes out quite fast, but like most Dash Attacks, as well as almost every other one of the Swordfighter's normals, it's very unsafe on whiff or block. Like most Dash Attacks, it's a great punishment tool that can deal pretty decent damage, and it affords the Swordfighter some momentum and stage control. It has a strong initial hitbox and a weaker late hitbox, though even the late hitbox is generally safe on hit. The initial hit does 10% with notable mostly-horizontal knockback that isn't going to KO any time soon, but is at least useful for pressure and stage control. The late hit does only 6% with very weak knockback at a high diagonal. If you land the late hit too early (right when the strong initial hit ends) at too low a percent, it might be unsafe on hit, so be careful of that.

Now onto aerials. NAir is an amazing move. The bad: It only deals 5% damage and has low knockback with no KO power to speak of, along with high endlag in the air. The good: It comes out quite quickly and has a long-duration hitbox that has great reach and covers a very wide arc, along with a very generous auto-cancel window. If an opponent gets too close and air-dodges immediately as the hit first comes out, the hitbox can end up still being out when their air-dodge ends, baiting and punishing in a single move. A "quirk" of this attack's low knockback is that it often launches the foe right back out to slightly beyond footsies distance, which is generally exactly where Swordfighter wants them. The move is excellent simply for its ease of use, spacing, and pressure, allowing the Swordfighter to make small but significant gains in stage control while dealing chip damage to the foe. A good tactic is to perform a rising short-hop NAir, or a full-jump rising NAir and fast-fall as soon as the hitbox ends; this is especially useful for hitting a grounded target with the move, and makes for an alternate option to UTilt in stopping a foe's aerial approach. It can also be useful as a follow-up after a UTilt juggle, though the opponent can air-dodge out of it. As mentioned above, the attack deals 5%. It causes weak knockback at a slightly upwards diagonal angle that generally prevents any aerial follow-ups without the Swordfighter first having to land.

FAir is a triple stab attack in front that almost always combos from one hit to the next properly. It's a good move to use if the Swordfighter has caught a foe in a disadvantageous position in the air. I think it's what they call a "poking" aerial. While it has noticeable startup and a bit of endlag, it covers a good distance in front and does some pretty solid damage, without moving the Swordfighter's hurtbox forward too much. If the Swordfighter manages to pressure a foe all the way offstage, this move can even be used to KO! While its vertical reach is limited, its horizontal reach is usually enough that the Swordfighter can whiff it on an airborne foe and still be out of range of their aerials, and its moderate startup is easily mitigated by the ability to adjust horizontal movement while using aerial attacks. This attack's biggest weakness is that its moderate endlag combined with its moderately strong, primarily horizontal knockback can make chasing tricky against foes with good aerial mobility options, and it does not appear to have an auto-cancel. The move does 11% total, with the final hit causing moderately strong knockback at a high diagonal angle that can, under ideal circumstances, KO foes in the 140% (post-hit) range. The exact angle and intensity of the final knockback varies depending on the Swordfighter's aerial velocity. If done exactly right, it can KO Mario at 136% (post-hit) from the upper platform of Battlefield with no VI (tested in Training, so no freshness bonus or Rage Effect).

UAir is a twisting upward stab. The move's vertical range is somewhat limited by the Swordfighter not pointing the sword perfectly upwards, but that also gives the move somewhat wider horizontal range than one might expect, and its vertical reach is still very respectable. The attack does more damage when it first comes out, buts gets much weaker afterwards. It has noticeable but workable startup and fairly significant but workable endlag. Rising UAir on a full jump gets the hitbox out at the peak of the jump and the endlag finished by the time the Swordfighter lands. The initial hitbox does a whopping 16% and can (sometimes?) KO Mario off the top from the upper platform of battlefield at 116% (post-hit) with no VI (tested in Training, so no freshness bonus or Rage Effect). It's oddly unreliable and sometimes doesn't KO until a few percent later. The late hit deals 9% with rather weak vertical knockback that doesn't KO, but at least keeps the move safe on hit.

BAir is a horizontal slash behind. Probably one of the Swordfighter's least useful aerials, as it has somewhat lengthy startup, endlag, and landing lag coupled with a short range, short hitbox duration, only middling KO power, and a complete lack of any follow-up opportunities. The move might prove to be more useful on the Wii U version, where we'll have a more reliable Control Stick as well as a C-Stick available to us. It deals 12% damage. In terms of KO power, it's a little wonky: If the Swordfighter performs the move while moving towards the foe, it can KO Mario at 175% (post-hit) from the centre of FD with no VI (tested in Training, so no freshness bonus or Rage Effect). If the Swordfighter performs the move while moving away from the foe, it KOs Mario at 182% (post-hit) from the centre of FD with no VI (tested in Training, so no freshness bonus or Rage Effect).

DAir is a spinning, multi-hitting downward stab. The entire point of the move is actually the landing impact, which does additional damage with actual knockback. The attack has good vertical reach and a bit of horizontal range, but this is marred by the move's long duration and endlag. The move has both high endlag and high landing lag, and is unsafe on hit if the Swordfighter doesn't land during it. It can grant good stage control with some okay damage output if it hits early in the move, but is very unsafe to whiff. One of the optimal times to use this move, if at all, is to shut down a vertical chasing attempt by an opponent with a relatively short-range UAir, as long as the Swordfighter can catch the juggle attempt early. The other would probably be near the peak of an approaching short hop against a grounded foe, using the move's downward reach to "net" the foe, drag them along with the multiple hits, and then shove them away with the landing impact. Using it in his fashion is very risky, but if successful causes both the Swordfighter and their opponent to cover quite a lot of ground, putting much of the stage behind the Swordfighter and thus under their control. In some ways, DAir can be said to be similar to NAir in function, but with higher reward (greater gain in momentum and stage control for landing it) in exchange for much greater risk. Overall, it probably isn't worth it more often than not. Although, if you can "net" a foe with it as I described above and drag them right off the edge of the platform, you can combo it into a footstool. Each of the multiple hits deals 1% or less, while the landing impact deals 5%. It appears to total at 11% damage. The landing impact causes respectable, mostly-horizontal knockback that has no real KO power (it KOs Mario at around 185% from the centre of Battlefield in Training Mode), but does make the move safe on hit and often leaves the foe just outside footsies range.

As far as throws go, the Swordfighter seems to get a noticeable increase in grab reach with a Boost Grab. The Swordfighter's throws are overall very weak and don't give much in the way of follow-ups, so they're really only useful to stop a foe from shielding too much. They're all "safe on hit" so to speak, so there's that at least.

UThrow is visually identical to Link's, but for some reason makes a standard punch/kick sound instead of a slash sound on hit. It does only 5% with middling vertical knockback, no KO power, and enough endlag to, combined with the strength of the knockback, stop the Swordfighter from actually being able to take advantage of the airborne foe.

FThrow is also visually identical to Link's. It does only 6% with middling mostly-horizontal knockback and no KO power, but at least it can be useful to push a foe offstage and start harassing them with projectiles. Not really good enough to get an aerial chase out of though.

BThrow is, yet again, visually identical to Link's. It does only 6% with weak knockback at a high diagonal and no KO power. Unlike FThrow, this move's knockback is too weak and its endlag too great for the Swordfighter to get any real mileage out of it.

DThrow is visually identical to Ike's. (Gasp! It's not Link's!) It does a whopping (note sarcasm) 4% damage with weak, primarily-vertical knockback. It's also got the shortest endlag of all the Mii Swordfighter's throws, so it's possible (if somewhat unlikely) for the Swordfighter to get an aerial follow-up out of this throw.

I could do an analysis on the specials as well, but I think they've already been fairly well-covered in the Mii Swordfighter character discussion. Do go take a look if you're interested. As for my personal opinion: Gale Strike/Blurring Blade, Chakram, Skyward Slash Dash, and Blade Counter make for the best loadout. The neutral special is really a take-your-pick kind of thing, but Gale Strike and Blurring Blade seem noticeably better than Shuriken of Light. Chakram is just too amazing, being angleable and piercing and having the option of a "normal" long-range version that does a reasonable 6% or a short-range, multi-hitting one to trap foes who try to roll or sidestep through. The multi-hitting one can get you guaranteed follow-ups if they get caught by it just wrong and it's just awesome. Skyward Slash Dash gets you the most versatile recovery without other mobility specials, so that was an obvious pick. Blade Counter is a great way to stop a foe's momentum and turn around a match that's not going in your favour, and can get KOs if you can counter something like a Smash Attack.

Overall, the Mii Swordfighter is a little different from most other sword wielders in terms of playstyle. While characters like Marth in Melee and Meta Knight in Brawl throw out hitboxes on a regular basis to force you to respect their space, the Mii Swordfighter wants you to respect the potential for a hitbox to appear at any given moment, as its moves tend to be quite quick to come out for the amount of reach they have. The Swordfighter, with the exception of things like UTilt juggles, wants to keep the foe in neutral as that's where most of its damage-dealing and KO potential lie. Most importantly when playing the Swordfighter, however, is to not miss. This cannot be stressed enough. Punish any foe who enters your space immediately, but don't throw attacks when out of range because you will leave yourself wide open. The only moves you can really afford to miss with are DTilt, NAir, jab, and projectiles like the Chakram. Other than that, don't throw out moves that you aren't certain will hit.

I'm fairly certain that Zelda, King Dedede, and Sonic will be within the top 7 when all is said and done.

I can also say with some confidence that I believe Rosalina and Little Mac will NOT be within the top 7. Rosalina is limited a lot more than people know. When firing off Luma with neutral B, she is locked in her position. This makes her extremely predictable. I can't begin to tell you how many punishes I've gotten off her trying to position Luma. Also, it's quite obvious that Little Mac has trouble with recovering. That's his biggest flaw as he's easy to gimp, but he also has terrible aerials. Just approach him from above or be ready to shield when he approaches and you're basically Mike Tyson to him.
When Custom Moves get involved, Little Mac's recovery gets a little less laughable. One of his Jolt Haymaker customs, Guard Breaker, is super armoured from startup all the way until the punch comes out. Unlike the Jolt Haymaker, which loses its intangibility if started from the air, the Guard Breaker retains its super armour even if initiated while airborne. As a result, you have to send Little Mac a fair bit farther offstage to get rid of him, instead of knocking him just barely offstage and then poking him lightly, as he'll just super armour right through your gimp attempt. It gets very slightly less horizontal distance than the Jolt Haymaker, but it really does make him that much more difficult to gimp because you can't follow and poke, you have to actually launch him all the way off.

Just a question, since Luma VS Projectiles was discussed a lot:

People are aware that a fully charged Luma Shot negates and goes through almost every projectile in the game, right? And will hit the opponent (KO'ing them too if at decent percent) during their cool down from their projectile?

Uncharged Luma Shot also goes through some projectiles.

Didn't see that mentioned anywhere, but it really shakes up how Luma is used against projectiles. I can't tell you the amount of times this feature has won me a match, especially against characters like Samus, Link, and Mega Man, who use lots of projectiles.

It also can go through some melee attacks, I believe. Fully charged Luma Shot seems to have really high priority, and he doesn't seem to take damage unless that priority is broken.

The range of Gravitational Pull is also big enough to potentially protect a wandering Luma.
I personally have yet to see a projectile that didn't stuff the Luma Shot outright, either during charge or when fired. Pit's arrows go right through, at least at most charge levels, and I've never seen an Aura Sphere get out-prioritized by a Luma Shot. On top of that, almost all "piercing" custom variants of projectiles, such as Chakram or Piercing Aura Sphere, have overwhelming priority that will beat out anything that isn't a piercing projectile itself. (Although Chakram has unique interactions with physical attacks and solid projectiles like Gordos that cause it to clash with them at best.)

Edit: As for Mii Fighters, there's absolutely no good reason to make a tall Mii if you're using the Swordfighter. For the Brawler, the advantages/disadvantages of increasing height are as follows:
Benefits:
Slight weight increase.
Increased reach due to longer limbs.
Increased ground traction.

Deficits:
Lower ground speed and horizontal air mobility.
Increased startup and endlag on all attacks.
Increased hurtbox size.

Whereas for increased width, the advantages/disadvantages look like this:
Benefits:
Slight weight increase.
Increased damage output.

Deficits:
Lower jumps and increased fall speed.
Slightly increased hurtbox size.

But then you get to the Mii Swordfighter, where increasing width also increases the length of your sword.

Increased width benefits/deficits for Swordfighter:
Benefits:
Slight weight increase.
Increased damage output.
Increased disjoint on sword attacks.
Increased reach on sword attacks.

Deficits:
Lower jumps and increased fall speed.
Slightly increased hurtbox size.

Increased height benefits/deficits for Swordfighter:
Benefits:
Slight weight increase.
Increased reach due to longer limbs (outdone by the increased sword length from the Mii's width).
Increased ground traction.

Deficits:
Decreased ground speed and horizontal air mobility.
Increased startup and endlag on all attacks.
Increased hurtbox size.

As a result, the absolute worst thing you can do with a Swordfighter is play a tall and skinny Mii. You will have lower damage output than a default-size Mii, lower attack speed than a default-size Mii with drastically increased endlag, shorter attack reach than a default-size Mii, lower horizontal mobility than a default-size Mii, and your hurtbox will be closer to the foe when you attack than for a default-size Mii, and your weight will likely average out to about the same. Your only, very slight advantage is that you have better jump height and grab range.
 
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ChikoLad

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Well, off the top of my head, Dedede's Gordos are out prioritised by Luma Shot even at weakest charge.

It also works against Aura Sphere (just tested it against the CPU). The level of charge you need likely depends on Lucario's Aura level, though.

Like I said, there are a lot of projectiles that it can go through.

And if "other characters have a lot of piercing customs" is brought in, then all that's needed is Rosalina use Luma Warp instead.
 

Tony_

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Can't go in depth about this right now, but this isn't an absolute truth at all.

Mario has both a reflector and decent speed, but I still think the match up is well in Rosalina's favour, for example.

Just wanted to chime in on that quickly.

Only real problematic match-up for Rosie right now is ZSS in my opinion, and maybe Ness and Lucario, but even that is manageable.
My bad, should have mentioned characters with above average speed like Fox, Falcon, etc. Characters like those can get in easily. Then again, as I probably should have admitted, I still don't understand Rosalina well enough yet, but that's the impression I get when fighting her, even against someone in For Glory who is OK at the game.
 
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SamuraiPanda

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I have discovered the most incredibly boring and inane matchup that Smash 4 could possibly have.

Wii Fit Trainer mirror match.

Friends don't let friends play Wii Fit Trainer dittos.
 

Novice_Brave

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As a tentative "top 5," I would say I have to give the honors to Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Greninja, and Yoshi. Bowser is just shy of that, though.

All 5 of those characters have incredible tools to deal with so many situations, are great at racking damage, have at least one or two easy kill moves, and make at least some matchups very hard. They are often just simply overwhelming with their speed and/or spacing abilities.

Bottom 5 is a bit more difficult to puzzle out, I think. But as of right now I'm looking at Ganondorf, Palutena, Mega Man, Ike, and maybe Wii Fit Trainer. Ike and Ganondorf are still far too slow and punishable and - from what I can tell, note: I'm not playing around with them personally a whole lot - barely improved from Brawl whereas every other veteran seems to have been beefed up considerably more than them.

Palutena has a pretty nice air game, but her ground game just feels positively maddening. Miss ANYTHING and they get to do whatever they'd like to you. Even if you do hit, the reward isn't incredibly wonderful - she has a difficult time following up on most things and most of her moves don't do a lot of damage by themselves. She has plenty of moves that can kill - all her smashes, uair, bair... but it's super difficult to land a lot of those moves when their startup is slow as all get out. Uair feels like the best option there. I dunno, I don't think she's actually too bad, but definitely underwhelming compared to many other characters. I still love to play her though.

Mega Man has too many horrid matchups - a ton of characters have reflectors which can essentially negate a huge portion of his moveset. I honestly think he's pretty bad as a whole. Good fair and bair... decent smash attacks (unless you're against a reflector, then fsmash becomes your own worst nightmare) but that's about it.

WFT - ah, the poor girl. I know that a lot of people will argue that her "awkward" hitboxes just mean she has a higher skillcap and can pull off some good hits that other characters can't - and I'd agree somewhat. But I don't think they're even just "awkward" and something you have to get used to - they're just bad angles for attacks. They become very limited and situational, and her range on most attacks is rlly gross. Sure her smashes can kill, but again, she's another character who's got a really long startup time on them - and they're very slow to end, so you'd better hit or else! Uair can kill but it's somewhat difficult to get a good hit with it, and bair kind of needs the sweetspot to kill well. Ftilt is okay, but it only starts killing without a DB at percents much higher than you want and towards the edges of stages. I can see someone proving this wrong and learning how to wreck face with her, I guess, but I just don't see it right now. I like playing her though, she's one of my favorites!
 

Radical Larry

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Doctor Mario can dish out ~60% damage in one fell combo, such as this:

D-Throw > U-Smash > U-Smash > U-Smash

This is thanks to his Melee properties passing over, where he has little knockback the lower the opponent's damage was.
 

ChikoLad

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Is there any way to beat Rosalinas as Ness? -.-
Ness is actually one of the better characters against Rosalina:

-PK Fire can catch Luma for a while. If Luma is linked to Rosalina and it hits Luma, it catches Rosalina too. Since she's big, she can't escape from it so well if caught in the center.

-The Baseball Bat (Side Smash) can reflect Luma Shot.

-His quirky and floaty aerial movement and attacks are a nice even match for Rosalina's.

He has one big downfall against her though - Rosalina's Down Special can gimp Ness's recovery. PK Thunder is a projectile, so Gravitational Pull can just eat it up. At which point, Ness will just fall to his doom in a helpless state.

And when Ness uses PK Thunder offensively, if Rosalina gets close, she can use Gravitational Pull on it and on the way around her, the bolt can actually hit Ness and send him into his electric spin animation, potentially sending him right off stage to fall helplessly to his doom. I won against a Ness once by doing this. I did it by complete accident though (was only intending to get rid of PK Thunder), so I don't know how easy it is to do intentionally. I haven't been a situation where I could test it further all that much.

-----

Also I actually don't think Ganondorf is that bad in this game. Seems to have some small changes that help him out a lot. Most notably the insane Super Armour on Warlock Punch. That outright scared me when I first discovered it.
 
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Kofu

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Well, off the top of my head, Dedede's Gordos are out prioritised by Luma Shot even at weakest charge.

It also works against Aura Sphere (just tested it against the CPU). The level of charge you need likely depends on Lucario's Aura level, though.

Like I said, there are a lot of projectiles that it can go through.

And if "other characters have a lot of piercing customs" is brought in, then all that's needed is Rosalina use Luma Warp instead.
Gordos are a bad example, since the weakest of attacks will send them back at Dedede (such as G&W's Chef lol). I believe Villager's Lloid Rocket also stops Luma regardless of charge. I'd be interested to see how his Pushy Lloid custom interacts with Luma shot; if it pushes Luma back, it'd be quite powerful in the MU.

On the topic of Villager, I feel he'll be mid-tier. He has a reasonable zoning game, and clever use of Pocket can make opponents with powerful projectiles think twice about using them haphazardly. However, his attracts tend to have short range, especially his kill moves (barring Timber, but it's really telegraphed and only reliable as a ledge trap). He has trouble with characters that can rush him down, like Captain Falcon, as they get into his bubble and stop him from doing much. His default recovery is very telegraphed and interceptible (customs are helpful though). Reflectors also can give him trouble since much of his moveset can be returned to him, especially FAir, BAir, and Lloid Rocket. Palutena especially gives him trouble with Reflect Barrier, due to its size, duration, and pushback. His grab is also slow which makes shielding very effective against his direct attacks (there's not very many of his normals that are safe on shield).

His strengths, aside from zoning, lie in gimping and juggling. His aerials, Lloid Rocket, UTilt, and USmash are all great at racking damage on an airborne opponent. His gimping is unique in that he often doesn't need to leave the stage to threaten and limit their recovery options. Lloid Rocket, FSmash, and Timber are all brutal threats, especially on a for recovering low.
 

Kofu

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They don't. Fully charged Luma Shot goes right through it.
Even so, bringing it up to full charge gives Villager a chance to approach Rosalina aerially while getting Luma away from her. I'm not the kind of player to just sit back and let my projectiles do all the work. Unless it's possible to cancel Luma Shot.

If Villager's riding Lloid, he's liable to get smacked by Luma. I wouldn't approach on it.
 
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Radical Larry

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I feel as if Link is the only character in this game that can counter Rosalina.

Here's why I think why:
-His Hylian Shield can actually defeat the purpose of the Luma Shot, as the Luma will go through Link without any damage, even while Link walks.
-Link's D-Air and N-Air out-prioritize Rosalina's U-Smash, F-Smash, D-Smash, F-Tilt, Dash and U-Tilt. They are also easy ways to break out of her combos whenever she jumps, especially the D-Air meteor.
-His projectiles, especially his Neutral, can defeat the Luma Shot.
-His F-Air out-prioritizes Rosalina's aerial attacks.
-His U-Tilt, F-Tilt, Dash, U-Throw and Smashes can KO Rosalina very easily.
-He can gimp Rosalina's recovery, meteor it or even predict where she lands and KO her from there.

However, he does have things against him, especially Rosalina's good air speed, fast attacks and grab game. However, not a single Rosalina player has beaten me with Link yet, and I've concluded this information because of such.
 

Z'zgashi

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All these 'Rosy for best character in game' posts and im just sitting here playing Yoshi/Wario and using my air mobility and air grabs to weave around and separate Luma easy mode. Honestly, i cant see Rosy being THE best when she cant deal with air mobility very well. I could easily see Jiggs, and probably Sonic/ZSS beating her as well.

Dont get me wrong, shes probably still a top tier, but with such a weakness to aerial characters who can separate Luma from her well, dont see her as the actual best.
 
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deepseadiva

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Greninja is probs #1 really. Rosalina might be like #4.
 

A2ZOMG

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As a tentative "top 5," I would say I have to give the honors to Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Greninja, and Yoshi. Bowser is just shy of that, though.

All 5 of those characters have incredible tools to deal with so many situations, are great at racking damage, have at least one or two easy kill moves, and make at least some matchups very hard. They are often just simply overwhelming with their speed and/or spacing abilities.

Bottom 5 is a bit more difficult to puzzle out, I think. But as of right now I'm looking at Ganondorf, Palutena, Mega Man, Ike, and maybe Wii Fit Trainer. Ike and Ganondorf are still far too slow and punishable and - from what I can tell, note: I'm not playing around with them personally a whole lot - barely improved from Brawl whereas every other veteran seems to have been beefed up considerably more than them.

Palutena has a pretty nice air game, but her ground game just feels positively maddening. Miss ANYTHING and they get to do whatever they'd like to you. Even if you do hit, the reward isn't incredibly wonderful - she has a difficult time following up on most things and most of her moves don't do a lot of damage by themselves. She has plenty of moves that can kill - all her smashes, uair, bair... but it's super difficult to land a lot of those moves when their startup is slow as all get out. Uair feels like the best option there. I dunno, I don't think she's actually too bad, but definitely underwhelming compared to many other characters. I still love to play her though.

Mega Man has too many horrid matchups - a ton of characters have reflectors which can essentially negate a huge portion of his moveset. I honestly think he's pretty bad as a whole. Good fair and bair... decent smash attacks (unless you're against a reflector, then fsmash becomes your own worst nightmare) but that's about it.

WFT - ah, the poor girl. I know that a lot of people will argue that her "awkward" hitboxes just mean she has a higher skillcap and can pull off some good hits that other characters can't - and I'd agree somewhat. But I don't think they're even just "awkward" and something you have to get used to - they're just bad angles for attacks. They become very limited and situational, and her range on most attacks is rlly gross. Sure her smashes can kill, but again, she's another character who's got a really long startup time on them - and they're very slow to end, so you'd better hit or else! Uair can kill but it's somewhat difficult to get a good hit with it, and bair kind of needs the sweetspot to kill well. Ftilt is okay, but it only starts killing without a DB at percents much higher than you want and towards the edges of stages. I can see someone proving this wrong and learning how to wreck face with her, I guess, but I just don't see it right now. I like playing her though, she's one of my favorites!
Bowser and Megaman are about equally bad/effective. They're almost certainly mid tier. Here's the thing about these two characters. They have excellent gameplans. They have AMAZING tools for controlling neutral. Problem is, both of them are very easily countered because of fundamental flaws.

Bowser can dominate you in footsies until you pick something that's good at projectile camping him and taking advantage of the fact he's the largest character in the game. Then his mobility and pokes don't mean jack ****. Link isn't as solid of a character as Bowser overall, but projectile camping is so good against Bowser that Link beats him.

Mega Man's projectile zoning is legitimately amazing. Until you pick someone with a good reflector, then he loses his best options. Palutena is bottom tier on default settings. Beats Mega Man with her Side B and Neutral B, which forces Mega Man to rely on his grab game to make plays, which is not nearly as rewarding as Palutena's (seriously, Palutena's grab game is legit amazing. Best pummel in the game and throws that are able to combo).

WFT I'd say is pretty good overall. She has very good projectiles that give her very easy edgeguard and juggle setups into KOs, a solid recovery, and very good and practical aerials. Yeah she has short range, though her ground moves are generally quick including her DA and tilts, and she has an extremely low crouch.

Ike is better off in this game than in Brawl. Tilts are more viable for spacing, making his midrange much more versatile, whereas in Brawl, he really only could do anything to you when you were in range of Jab or B-air. Ike's D-tilt is honestly really good. I assume around frame 9-11ish in this game, good damage, hits people out almost horizontally, and has a low enough hitbox to shield poke easily. Physics changes also give Ike different guaranteed combos off D-throw and N-air at early percents. It's also easier for Ike to trap people into U-smash and U-tilt in this game. I'd argue lower end mid tier. His biggest weaknesses are mostly a poor DA/grab mixup and limited offstage edgeguard options, but I'd say his spacing game overall is quite viable with the buffs to his tilts.

Mario and Doc are both bottom 5 in contrast. Mario is slightly better off due to superior mobility and FLUDD giving Mario extra stage control/edgeguard options. Both however have terrible neutral games and negative states, and neither is strong at scoring KOs really easily.
 
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