Character Competitive Impressions

[ChikoLad]

Even so, bringing it up to full charge gives Villager a chance to approach Rosalina aerially while getting Luma away from her. I'm not the kind of player to just sit back and let my projectiles do all the work. Unless it's possible to cancel Luma Shot.

If Villager's riding Lloid, he's liable to get smacked by Luma. I wouldn't approach on it.

Villager isn't exactly fast though, so if he's already using Lloid Rocket, he's likely at a distance and can't approach easily.

Even with Villager riding?

I don't think so but in that case hitting Villager himself can do the trick.

I feel as if Link is the only character in this game that can counter Rosalina.

Here's why I think why:
-His Hylian Shield can actually defeat the purpose of the Luma Shot, as the Luma will go through Link without any damage, even while Link walks.
-Link's D-Air and N-Air out-prioritize Rosalina's U-Smash, F-Smash, D-Smash, F-Tilt, Dash and U-Tilt. They are also easy ways to break out of her combos whenever she jumps, especially the D-Air meteor.
-His projectiles, especially his Neutral, can defeat the Luma Shot.
-His F-Air out-prioritizes Rosalina's aerial attacks.
-His U-Tilt, F-Tilt, Dash, U-Throw and Smashes can KO Rosalina very easily.
-He can gimp Rosalina's recovery, meteor it or even predict where she lands and KO her from there.

However, he does have things against him, especially Rosalina's good air speed, fast attacks and grab game. However, not a single Rosalina player has beaten me with Link yet, and I've concluded this information because of such.

Link has a problem in that Rosalina forces him to approach. His projectiles are very telegraphed and stop him in his tracks when used on the ground (and are still telegraphed in the air). Meaning Rosalina can just use her down special on them until he approaches. At this point, you're playing into her hands, because good Rosalina players will already have plans in mind for you on approach (especially since Link's normals are also pretty telegraphed - Dash Attack is a KO move, but you can see it coming from a mile away, and Rosalina's dodge goes really far and turns her invisible to boot, so she runs circles around his normals with it). She can also claim ownership of his Bombs altogether with Down B.

He's also really easy to hit with Luma Shot in the air. And really easy to carry off stage. And while Link can attack Rosalina out of Launch Star (pretty much any character can, so it's not unique to him), only a careless Rosalina would let this happen. Rosalina can actually just angle it above him, rather than climbing up the side of the stage. And if Link has already initiated D-air when Rosalina goes over him, well, have a nice fall.

All these 'Rosy for best character in game' posts and im just sitting here playing Yoshi/Wario and using my air mobility and air grabs to weave around and separate Luma easy mode. Honestly, i cant see Rosy being THE best when she cant deal with air mobility very well. I could easily see Jiggs, and probably Sonic/ZSS beating her as well.

Dont get me wrong, shes probably still a top tier, but with such a weakness to aerial characters who can separate Luma from her well, dont see her as the actual best.

You're probably playing against really bad players then, because Rosalina also has great aerial mobility herself, and the air is one of her most dominant positions, since her aerials are so good.

You're right on ZSS, she is trouble (but is manageable), but it isn't because of her air game.

 

[deepseadiva]

What might be cool is a scatter graph of tier impressions. That would give us a pretty good indication of at least the two extremes of the pool.

Otherwise yall are throwing around Bowser from top tier to bottom tier every other page. At least half of you have no idea. XD

 

[ChikoLad]

Bowser isn't top tier, since he has some obvious poor match ups and exploitable weaknesses, but he's very good, and has a fair share of strengths and favourable match-ups. Not sure how I'd stack him overall, haven't seen him/used him against enough characters to say. I'm considering picking him up though. Would be nice to have a heavyweight to say I'm good with, so why not go with Bowser since he's the heaviest of all, and has seen some major improvements to boot? :V

 

[ChronoPenguin]

What might be cool is a scatter graph of tier impressions. That would give us a pretty good indication of at least the two extremes of the pool.

Otherwise yall are throwing around Bowser from top tier to bottom tier every other page. At least half of you have no idea. XD

I'll eat my hat if Bowser is top tier, it baffles me that people still say it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What might be cool is a scatter graph of tier impressions. That would give us a pretty good indication of at least the two extremes of the pool.

Otherwise yall are throwing around Bowser from top tier to bottom tier every other page. At least half of you have no idea. XD

I don't think anyone is saying Bowser is bottom tier. His movepool is clearly too strong for that.

He can't however be stronger than mid tier, because his weaknesses...are just really, REALLY glaring. Poor vertical recovery, bad escapes from juggle traps, HUGE HURTBOX.

Running as fast as Marth and having some of the best ground normals in the game doesn't cut it when you're forced to stop your gameplan when someone starts spamming projectiles. Not to mention you have to deal with a crapton of fullhop spacing that nobody else has to deal with, and it's very hard for you to get back into neutral given poor landing options. Bowser's gameplan is amazing, until you pick things that force him to not play on his terms.

It's also pretty much the same exact deal for Mega Man. Great character until you have a reflector.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I feel as if Link is the only character in this game that can counter Rosalina.

Here's why I think why:
-His Hylian Shield can actually defeat the purpose of the Luma Shot, as the Luma will go through Link without any damage, even while Link walks.
-Link's D-Air and N-Air out-prioritize Rosalina's U-Smash, F-Smash, D-Smash, F-Tilt, Dash and U-Tilt. They are also easy ways to break out of her combos whenever she jumps, especially the D-Air meteor.
-His projectiles, especially his Neutral, can defeat the Luma Shot.
-His F-Air out-prioritizes Rosalina's aerial attacks.
-His U-Tilt, F-Tilt, Dash, U-Throw and Smashes can KO Rosalina very easily.
-He can gimp Rosalina's recovery, meteor it or even predict where she lands and KO her from there.

However, he does have things against him, especially Rosalina's good air speed, fast attacks and grab game. However, not a single Rosalina player has beaten me with Link yet, and I've concluded this information because of such.

I've beaten dair with uair before, so it's probably spacing and timing dependent. In general though I agree Link has a lot going for him against Rosalina.

I've beaten plenty of Rosalinas with D3 over netplay and I still think it's a bad match up.

Smooth Criminal

My biggest issue against Dedede is that I have a hard time hitting the Gordos safely. Jab doesn't seem to work, nor does fair. Ftilt and dash attack work but it's tricky to time it with the bounce, especially online. Luma Shot beats it clean, but again bounce issues. At least Gravitational Pull eats them up.

He also outranges Rosalina with ftilt pretty easily.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Gravitational Pull is a biiiiiig asset in the matchup. Chances are that you'll be out of that move's recovery by the time D3 is able waddle over there.

Smooth Criminal

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Villager isn't exactly fast though, so if he's already using Lloid Rocket, he's likely at a distance and can't approach easily.



I don't think so but in that case hitting Villager himself can do the trick.



Link has a problem in that Rosalina forces him to approach. His projectiles are very telegraphed and stop him in his tracks when used on the ground (and are still telegraphed in the air). Meaning Rosalina can just use her down special on them until he approaches. At this point, you're playing into her hands, because good Rosalina players will already have plans in mind for you on approach (especially since Link's normals are also pretty telegraphed - Dash Attack is a KO move, but you can see it coming from a mile away, and Rosalina's dodge goes really far and turns her invisible to boot, so she runs circles around his normals with it). She can also claim ownership of his Bombs altogether with Down B.

He's also really easy to hit with Luma Shot in the air. And really easy to carry off stage. And while Link can attack Rosalina out of Launch Star (pretty much any character can, so it's not unique to him), only a careless Rosalina would let this happen. Rosalina can actually just angle it above him, rather than climbing up the side of the stage. And if Link has already initiated D-air when Rosalina goes over him, well, have a nice fall.



You're probably playing against really bad players then, because Rosalina also has great aerial mobility herself, and the air is one of her most dominant positions, since her aerials are so good.

You're right on ZSS, she is trouble (but is manageable), but it isn't because of her air game.

Rosalina doesn't even have to pursue into the air to juggle much of the cast thanks to her absolutely ridiculous UTilt. She has a dominant ground game, even more dominant air game, dominant defensive game thanks to her effective immunity to both grabs and projectiles and the fact that she grants Luma immunity to projectiles as well as long as it's anywhere nearby, and dominant ground and aerial offence thanks to her absolutely insane ENTIRE AERIAL MOVESET and Dash Attack, UTilt, Down Smash, USmash, and Luma's DTilt, not to mention her FSmash which outranges that of many sword-wielders.

Pit in particular has absolutely nothing on Rosalina, other than the vague advantage of being able to actually hit her with a short-hop FAir thanks to her height. For some weird reason, Rosalina automatically breaks out of Pit's jab combo after the first hit at most percents. She can also easily fall out of his USmash for some reason, and is somehow able to shield the second hit of his FSmash even if the first hit connects. Her FSmash and FTilt both out-range Pit's FTilt and DTilt and the first hit of his FSmash, and she has Luma to make that even worse. And, on top of all that, her walking speed is superior to Pit's air speed, allowing her to juggle Pit with UTilt almost indefinitely, especially since the move's range is superior to that of Pit's DAir. Even the Power of Flight isn't fast enough to get Pit out of the way. If, theoretically, there was a flat walk-off stage with no other features (or a flat stage without grabbable ledges), Rosalina would have a 100-0 matchup against Pit as a result of that alone. He can use the Guardian Orbitars to cover his descent, sure, but that just allows Rosalina to immediately grab and UThrow him, then resume spamming UTilt forever. Even if Pit manages to bait a UTilt and use Power of Flight while she whiffs, she can still just pop him back up with Dash Attack and resume juggling him forever because Power of Flight travels just too slowly.

And even though Rosalina doesn't have to take to the air at all to completely outdo Pit's air game, she can if she wants and she'll win there, too. Her BAir flattens her hurtbox out and has reach equal to or greater than Pit's FAir, allowing her to slip the move's hitbox and hit Pit. Her FAir has horizontal reach equal to Pit's FAir with a wider vertical arc, allowing her to easily get past it that way, too. Both her FAir and BAir out-range Pit's NAir, so that's a no-go as well, and they out-range BAir even worse than FAir. Her UAir out-ranges Pit's DAir, and her DAir out-ranges Pit's UAir. In other words, Pit's air game straight-up loses to hers in every way, even without Luma, on top of his ground game losing to hers in every way.

Even if Pit gets her in the air, he can't take advantage of it as her DAir out-ranges his UTilt and seemingly even his USmash, plus Launch Star lets her escape any juggles he attempts by letting her reach the ground before he's able to chase her down.

 

[Radical Larry]

I've beaten dair with uair before, so it's probably spacing and timing dependent. In general though I agree Link has a lot going for him against Rosalina.

My biggest issue against Dedede is that I have a hard time hitting the Gordos safely. Jab doesn't seem to work, nor does fair. Ftilt and dash attack work but it's tricky to time it with the bounce, especially online. Luma Shot beats it clean, but again bounce issues. At least Gravitational Pull eats them up.

He also outranges Rosalina with ftilt pretty easily.

Well, yes, I can see Link outdoing Rosalina in terms of various things, though with his Walking Shield deflecting Luma Shot, making the Luma go through him, you'll pretty much have to run up to him and send him into the air first, which could be predictable. If you use the attack while Link is standing, kiss your Luma goodbye.

Now of course, with Dedede...I'll have to say this:
Throwing back Gordos deal twice as much damage than when they come at you.

Gravitational Pull is a biiiiiig asset in the matchup. Chances are that you'll be out of that move's recovery by the time D3 is able waddle over there.

Smooth Criminal

Ah yes, the Gravitational Pull, something that can be countered by using a projectile attack and then a physical one.

 

[Karuzo]

Sometimes it appears that PK Fire doesn't hit Luma, because he flies too high. That's annoying though.

 

[ChikoLad]

Rosalina doesn't even have to pursue into the air to juggle much of the cast thanks to her absolutely ridiculous UTilt. She has a dominant ground game, even more dominant air game, dominant defensive game thanks to her effective immunity to both grabs and projectiles and the fact that she grants Luma immunity to projectiles as well as long as it's anywhere nearby, and dominant ground and aerial offence thanks to her absolutely insane ENTIRE AERIAL MOVESET and Dash Attack, UTilt, Down Smash, USmash, and Luma's DTilt, not to mention her FSmash which outranges that of many sword-wielders.

Pit in particular has absolutely nothing on Rosalina, other than the vague advantage of being able to actually hit her with a short-hop FAir thanks to her height. For some weird reason, Rosalina automatically breaks out of Pit's jab combo after the first hit at most percents. She can also easily fall out of his USmash for some reason, and is somehow able to shield the second hit of his FSmash even if the first hit connects. Her FSmash and FTilt both out-range Pit's FTilt and DTilt and the first hit of his FSmash, and she has Luma to make that even worse. And, on top of all that, her walking speed is superior to Pit's air speed, allowing her to juggle Pit with UTilt almost indefinitely, especially since the move's range is superior to that of Pit's DAir. Even the Power of Flight isn't fast enough to get Pit out of the way. If, theoretically, there was a flat walk-off stage with no other features (or a flat stage without grabbable ledges), Rosalina would have a 100-0 matchup against Pit as a result of that alone. He can use the Guardian Orbitars to cover his descent, sure, but that just allows Rosalina to immediately grab and UThrow him, then resume spamming UTilt forever. Even if Pit manages to bait a UTilt and use Power of Flight while she whiffs, she can still just pop him back up with Dash Attack and resume juggling him forever because Power of Flight travels just too slowly.

And even though Rosalina doesn't have to take to the air at all to completely outdo Pit's air game, she can if she wants and she'll win there, too. Her BAir flattens her hurtbox out and has reach equal to or greater than Pit's FAir, allowing her to slip the move's hitbox and hit Pit. Her FAir has horizontal reach equal to Pit's FAir with a wider vertical arc, allowing her to easily get past it that way, too. Both her FAir and BAir out-range Pit's NAir, so that's a no-go as well, and they out-range BAir even worse than FAir. Her UAir out-ranges Pit's DAir, and her DAir out-ranges Pit's UAir. In other words, Pit's air game straight-up loses to hers in every way, even without Luma, on top of his ground game losing to hers in every way.

Even if Pit gets her in the air, he can't take advantage of it as her DAir out-ranges his UTilt and seemingly even his USmash, plus Launch Star lets her escape any juggles he attempts by letting her reach the ground before he's able to chase her down.

Jesus...

Poor little Pit.

Well, yes, I can see Link outdoing Rosalina in terms of various things, though with his Walking Shield deflecting Luma Shot, making the Luma go through him, you'll pretty much have to run up to him and send him into the air first, which could be predictable. If you use the attack while Link is standing, kiss your Luma goodbye.

Now of course, with Dedede...I'll have to say this:
Throwing back Gordos deal twice as much damage than when they come at you.



Ah yes, the Gravitational Pull, something that can be countered by using a projectile attack and then a physical one.

Rosalina's attacks are not nearly as predictable as Link's. You act as if Rosalina can't safely approach Link, when really the opposite is true. She can negate his projectiles entirely, which forces him to approach. There is only so much he can do with his telegraphed normals, and Rosalina can get around that no problem, and will probably know his options.

And Link and Dedede are far too slow to be able to rush Rosalina down after Gravitational Pull takes one of their projectile from afar. And we simply don't use the thing at close range, since there are better options there (shield, dodge, Luma meat shield, etc).

Toon Link is better against Rosalina than Link is, if you ask me. Has pretty much all of the relevant tools Link has against her, only he is faster, smaller, better in the air, better range on his specials, etc.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Gravitational Pull is a biiiiiig asset in the matchup. Chances are that you'll be out of that move's recovery by the time D3 is able waddle over there.

Smooth Criminal

The most irritating Gordo for me to deal with is the one that bounces more or less in place. It's close enough that I don't really feel safe using GPull since ftilt has pretty good range. I need to practice hitting them back properly, I think.

 

[ChikoLad]

The most irritating Gordo for me to deal with is the one that bounces more or less in place. It's close enough that I don't really feel safe using GPull since ftilt has pretty good range. I need to practice hitting them back properly, I think.

Or just wait for it to disappear. Might even get a good "Mmhmmmm" in while you're at it!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Or just wait for it to disappear. Might even get a good "Mmhmmmm" in while you're at it!

Maybe I've just met all the good Dededes online but that's just begging to eat a smash attack.

But yes Sassalina(TM) taunt is top tier.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ah yes, the Gravitational Pull, something that can be countered by using a projectile attack and then a physical one.

Hey, that's great that Link can cover his own ass like that after he throws ****. More power to him.

It's not quite as easy with D3. Long range default Gordo shenanigans are out of the question. Rosalina'll just banish that stuff to the ether and, by the time I get there, will probably be controlling the space between us with her Luma. Midrange approach is iffy because she's more than capable of using one of her normals, aerial or not, to bounce it back. Luma's there too, swinging if I get careless. Close range approach, probably as a punish or a wakeup option, I might be able to get away with it...? Hard to say.

The most irritating Gordo for me to deal with is the one that bounces more or less in place. It's close enough that I don't really feel safe using GPull since ftilt has pretty good range. I need to practice hitting them back properly, I think.

See above. The "pullback" Gordo is more or less beaten by a quick move. Hell, if any move has enough active frames, range, and/or speed, you'll beat it clean and bounce it back, which more or less will force me into shielding, acting before interaction between you and the Gordo occurs, or resetting the situation (possibly in your favor). Waiting it out is another option, but chances are that the D3 will be on the move before it vanishes, and you're giving them enough time to do, well, something.

Like I said, it's a tricky proposition. I have to rely on D3's other tools, and while not entirely lackluster, it forces me to cede a lot of the stage control I normally have. It also could be stage dependent as well.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ChikoLad]

Maybe I've just met all the good Dededes online but that's just begging to eat a smash attack.

But yes Sassalina(TM) taunt is top tier.

The part about the taunt was a joke, (feel free to try though!) but waiting for the thing to disappear is basically a neutral state. Again, this is all part of Rosalina being great at forcing an approach attempt out of her opponent. Just react to whatever he does next.

 

[The Real Gamer]

This is random but thanks to @ KuroganeHammer 's weight/running speed lists I recently realized Zard is the only character who is top 10 in both weight and running speed, which is a pretty cool niche.

Combine that with his multiple jumps + Flare Blitz and you could make the argument that he's the most difficult heavyweight in the game to properly pin down with projectile camping/zoning, in theory at least.

Just some food for thought...

 

[BSP]

Mario and Doc are both bottom 5 in contrast. Mario is slightly better off due to superior mobility and FLUDD giving Mario extra stage control/edgeguard options. Both however have terrible neutral games and negative states, and neither is strong at scoring KOs really easily.

Cosigning this, for Mario at least. I think Doc is a bit worse, but I haven't given him as much time. I don't know about bottom 5 per say...but bottom 10 for sure.

Mario's still too basic for his own good. His range is still crap and he can't reliably keep up with the good characters in this game. Sheik and Diddy are nearly straight upgrades to him IMO. Yoshi too.

His "combos" aren't really that reliable, and he can't kill well at all outside of gimps or hard reads with Fsmash. The only things that got better about Mario from brawl are FLUDD and Dtilt. Fair is half and half because of meteors being techable on the ground, but it will definitely KO offstage. Everything else got nerfed in damage, and the combos don't really make up for it IMO.

That being said, I don't think he has any unwinnables, but he's definitely going to struggle.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Cosigning this, for Mario at least. I think Doc is a bit worse, but I haven't given him as much time. I don't know about bottom 5 per say...but bottom 10 for sure.

Mario's still too basic for his own good. His range is still crap and he can't reliably keep up with the good characters in this game. Sheik and Diddy are nearly straight upgrades to him IMO. Yoshi too.

His "combos" aren't really that reliable, and he can't kill well at all outside of gimps or hard reads with Fsmash. The only things that got better about Mario from brawl are FLUDD and Dtilt. Fair is half and half because of meteors being techable on the ground, but it will definitely KO offstage. Everything else got nerfed in damage, and the combos don't really make up for it IMO.

That being said, I don't think he has any unwinnables, but he's definitely going to struggle.

If you want to talk high tier matchups, the main one Doc probably does better in is Lucario where having aerials that actually KO is especially noticeable. Other than that, I would likely give the nod to Mario, particularly against Rosalina and Yoshi, where extra mobility to chase them down can be critical.

I think they both get owned by Sheik, ZSS, and Diddy pretty hard to the point where it probably doesn't matter. Even if those matchups are somehow winnable, they're just fundamentally not fair for either character.

 

[Z'zgashi]

You're probably playing against really bad players then, because Rosalina also has great aerial mobility herself, and the air is one of her most dominant positions, since her aerials are so good.

You're right on ZSS, she is trouble (but is manageable), but it isn't because of her air game.

Im playing against people who have been in the Smash scene for almost a decade, they definitely know what theyre doing. Top level players? Probably not, but they're at least high level.

And I never said ZSS was hard for her because of her air game, I didnt even give a reason for ZSS, I just listed her as a probable disadvantageous match up for Rosy along with Sonic without any details. ZSS's speed and mid range zoning with her Paralyzer and Whip are what make her difficult obv.

 

[OldShadow00]

If you want to talk high tier matchups, the main one Doc probably does better in is Lucario where having aerials that actually KO is especially noticeable. Other than that, I would likely give the nod to Mario, particularly against Rosalina and Yoshi, where extra mobility to chase them down can be critical.

I think they both get owned by Sheik, ZSS, and Diddy pretty hard to the point where it probably doesn't matter. Even if those matchups are somehow winnable, they're just fundamentally not fair for either character.

Using Mario definitely feels like an uphill battle with most characters in this game. Is there any character that plays similarly to him but doesn't suck?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Using Mario definitely feels like an uphill battle with most characters in this game. Is there any character that plays similarly to him but doesn't suck?

What in terms of utilt spam?
Kirby - no wait hes not good.
Fox

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

What in terms of utilt spam?
Kirby - no wait hes not good.
Fox

The Mii Brawler is probably most similar to Mario in terms of ground normals, difference being that the Mii Brawler's normals are actually good and the Brawler has a much more damaging jab combo.

 

[OldShadow00]

This saddens me. Both mario and marth feel like crap in this game. I guess I now know what all the falcon mains felt when brawl came out.

 

[Signia]

This saddens me. Both mario and marth feel like crap in this game. I guess I now know what all the falcon mains felt when brawl came out.

Can you tell me what's bad about Marth without referencing past games?

 

[Luco]

@ ChikoLad : The Match-up against Ness shouldn't be ridiculously difficult for you, or at least i'd be surprised if it is. Rosalina's gravitational pull sucks in PK Thunder even if it just catches so much as its tail. While the spinning PKT is now yours and thus can hit ness allowing him to use PKT again, offstage really feels like an uphill battle.

I haven't tested it but i've been led to believe our PK Fire doesn't hit Luma unless we've hit her first. However if we do get a PK fire on Luma then it's more or less a free 10 seconds of one on one time with Rosi until another one pops up. The moves that frustrate me the most in this MU are the dash attack and quite a few of her grounded jabs, tilts and whatnot that have extra range due to Luma. In the air, I have a suspicion both from playing against and playing as Rosi that we win pretty hard; but actually getting you into the air is annoyingly difficult.

If Ness can put Rosi into the air then i'd argue it's in his favour. Camping is reasonably easy for Rosi but probably carries with it a little more risk than in other match-ups. I don't think that would warrant a big change in the MU rating. I think it's probably a +2/-2 in your favour; but I could be wrong...

 

[OldShadow00]

Can you tell me what's bad about Marth without referencing past games?

IMO he doesnt seem to have enough reaction time or range to react to certain situations. Other characters seem to outrange him easily and have better reaction time to boot.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I haven't tested otherwise, but it does make sense based off of observation.
But Lucina's full hop retreating forward air isn't safe on shield, while Marth's is. Tipper or otherwise.

The reason for this is that Marth's attacks all have hitlag modifiers. Untippered hits have less hitlag, making them technically safer on shield than they would be naturally. Tippered hits produce more hitlag, making them less safe but usually evening out to around the same "frame advantage" due to the extra damage tipper attacks have.

Lucina does not seem to gain those hitlag modifications from what I've seen thus far (would explain shield drop dash attack being a consistent punish on my Lucina while miraculously not being the case for Marth :<), making her considerably less absolutely frame safe on shield than Marth in every instance.
This is just a theory right now, I'll likely test later, but it does make sense, and if this is the case, Lucina is definitely a noticeably weaker character than he is.

Even if this is not the case, I think nearly every match up will be 5 to 10 points extra in Marth's favour going by a 100 scale. Maybe not enough to differ an extra +/- 1 in a match up chart but this will likely be the case based off observation/tournament data. The 10-15% difference Lucina gets in kill power on her regular attacks holds nothing to Marth's tippers killing on average 20% lower on aerials and 30-50%+ earlier on smash attacks.

Thanks for this post. I've pretty much all but put Marth away for good, but I have a knack for playing favorites. I pick Lucina because I liked her in Fire Emblem: Awakening and was excited to see her in this game. But it sheds more light on which character is better and make me consider using Marth again in the future.

 

[Shaya]

That's actually confirmed now.
Lucina is literally/objectively less safe on every single move she has [on shield] than Marth is (some special attacks may run even as they have the same damage/properties).

(Please do not argue with me if you don't know what literally/objectively means... like some on the lucina boards :<)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ ChikoLad : The Match-up against Ness shouldn't be ridiculously difficult for you, or at least i'd be surprised if it is. Rosalina's gravitational pull sucks in PK Thunder even if it just catches so much as its tail. While the spinning PKT is now yours and thus can hit ness allowing him to use PKT again, offstage really feels like an uphill battle.

I haven't tested it but i've been led to believe our PK Fire doesn't hit Luma unless we've hit her first. However if we do get a PK fire on Luma then it's more or less a free 10 seconds of one on one time with Rosi until another one pops up. The moves that frustrate me the most in this MU are the dash attack and quite a few of her grounded jabs, tilts and whatnot that have extra range due to Luma. In the air, I have a suspicion both from playing against and playing as Rosi that we win pretty hard; but actually getting you into the air is annoyingly difficult.

If Ness can put Rosi into the air then i'd argue it's in his favour. Camping is reasonably easy for Rosi but probably carries with it a little more risk than in other match-ups. I don't think that would warrant a big change in the MU rating. I think it's probably a +2/-2 in your favour; but I could be wrong...

PK Fire will hit Luma, but since the projectile is rather low to the ground and Luma tends to float, I can see it possibly whiffing at the edge of its range, or if Luma is doing utilt or some other move where it jumps briefly. In general though, PK Fire puts a serious damper on the strategy of just dashing in with Luma in tow and letting it sponge a projectile hit for us. It stuffs Luma Shot for basically the same reason.

We also can't absorb PK Flash although I'm not really sure what use that is outside an edgeguard.

 

[Signia]

IMO he doesnt seem to have enough reaction time or range to react to certain situations. Other characters seem to outrange him easily and have better reaction time to boot.

I don't think reaction time is a property of a character... do you mean his attacks are too slow?

 

[Luco]

PK Fire will hit Luma, but since the projectile is rather low to the ground and Luma tends to float, I can see it possibly whiffing at the edge of its range, or if Luma is doing utilt or some other move where it jumps briefly. In general though, PK Fire puts a serious damper on the strategy of just dashing in with Luma in tow and letting it sponge a projectile hit for us. It stuffs Luma Shot for basically the same reason.

We also can't absorb PK Flash although I'm not really sure what use that is outside an edgeguard.

Yeah i've noticed Pk Flash can't be absorbed; but Ness mains very rarely use it, even less so now that PK thunder juggling and harassment for offstage is so great.

I'd like to play around with PK Fire and Luma shot more. If it works out, that'd be great, but i'm not sure if the MU would be any closer to even for it. I've never found Rosi's camping to be Ness' problem in this match-up. :/

 

[OldShadow00]

I don't think reaction time is a property of a character... do you mean his attacks are too slow?

I dont think the initial attack is slow, but he can't react as quickly after attacks as a light character with his range and power should. An example of a character that can react quickly would be Mario. You can pretty much short hop nair into anything once he lands.

 

[Signia]

I dont think the initial attack is slow, but he can't react as quickly after attacks as a light character with his range and power should. An example of a character that can react quickly would be Mario. You can pretty much short hop nair into anything once he lands.

So Marth is bad because he has long landing lag/recovery animations, got it.

Anybody else? Doesn't Marth outclass everyone on the ground except Little Mac?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Outclass Rosaluma? Dont think so wtf is with that girls range and dash attack.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Using Mario definitely feels like an uphill battle with most characters in this game. Is there any character that plays similarly to him but doesn't suck?

Sheik plays Mario's game except with better normals and projectiles and a superior recovery. Only thing she doesn't have is FLUDD.

 

[Shaya]

So Marth is bad because he has long landing lag/recovery animations, got it.

Anybody else? Doesn't Marth outclass everyone on the ground except Little Mac?

Marth can outclass everyone on the ground (particularly if he uses the air a little too ), as in, he has the capacity to do so. Does he actually outclass people on a baseline level? I'd say not, option-rich? Always. Actually better? Probably not. haha

Outclass Rosaluma? Dont think so wtf is with that girls range and dash attack.

I've on multiple occasions avoided the second hit of her dash attack after taking the first, hopefully I can semi-consistently get the Smash DI/Shuffling down :D. *Don't get hit is outdated; take the hit the way you want to for victories*
But yeah, Marth doesn't beat Rosalina on the ground from the ground with Luma around. He can punish any ROSALINA (not Luma) attack on his shield reliably but Luma will obv get in the way in a lot of situations. Fortunately our fair still beats her aerials; thank god thank god.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's actually confirmed now.
Lucina is literally/objectively less safe on every single move she has [on shield] than Marth is (some special attacks may run even as they have the same damage/properties).

(Please do not argue with me if you don't know what literally/objectively means... like the people on the lucina boards :<)

This is depressing.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This is random but thanks to @ KuroganeHammer 's weight/running speed lists I recently realized Zard is the only character who is top 10 in both weight and running speed, which is a pretty cool niche.

Combine that with his multiple jumps + Flare Blitz and you could make the argument that he's the most difficult heavyweight in the game to properly pin down with projectile camping/zoning, in theory at least.

Just some food for thought...

except his aerials suck so unless you're a god at baiting things with multiple jumps then you're screwed

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Every Zard I've played against has a very risky playstyle

It caught me off-guard at first but if you just wait they eventually kill themselves >_>