Character Competitive Impressions

[KuroganeHammer]

which is the really strong side b

i hate that move, if it catches you it kills you at 80% or less

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That move made me love him.

I've caught people out so much and killed them across the stage early.

But yeah his aerials are just ok and some are meh. Ground moves are better.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Still haven't figured out if I like it more than Dragon Rush or not.

 

[ChikoLad]

Im playing against people who have been in the Smash scene for almost a decade, they definitely know what theyre doing. Top level players? Probably not, but they're at least high level.

And I never said ZSS was hard for her because of her air game, I didnt even give a reason for ZSS, I just listed her as a probable disadvantageous match up for Rosy along with Sonic without any details. ZSS's speed and mid range zoning with her Paralyzer and Whip are what make her difficult obv.

With ZSS, it's less her speed and whip that's a problem (I'm pretty good at punishing the whip myself).

It's the fact that she can always cripple Luma with Neutral B, and Down B is very annoying since it gets her away from pretty much anything.

I generally play a more defensive game against ZSS, since I can bait and shield her Down B, which leaves her wide open.

Sonic isn't much of a problem though. Yeah he's fast but because of lack of range he is pretty easy to stop in his tracks. Plus, he's not very good against Rosalina in the air (and the fact that he's usually great in the air is a big part of what makes him great in this game in the first place). Just requires some good timing.

@ ChikoLad : The Match-up against Ness shouldn't be ridiculously difficult for you, or at least i'd be surprised if it is. Rosalina's gravitational pull sucks in PK Thunder even if it just catches so much as its tail. While the spinning PKT is now yours and thus can hit ness allowing him to use PKT again, offstage really feels like an uphill battle.

I haven't tested it but i've been led to believe our PK Fire doesn't hit Luma unless we've hit her first. However if we do get a PK fire on Luma then it's more or less a free 10 seconds of one on one time with Rosi until another one pops up. The moves that frustrate me the most in this MU are the dash attack and quite a few of her grounded jabs, tilts and whatnot that have extra range due to Luma. In the air, I have a suspicion both from playing against and playing as Rosi that we win pretty hard; but actually getting you into the air is annoyingly difficult.

If Ness can put Rosi into the air then i'd argue it's in his favour. Camping is reasonably easy for Rosi but probably carries with it a little more risk than in other match-ups. I don't think that would warrant a big change in the MU rating. I think it's probably a +2/-2 in your favour; but I could be wrong...

It's not so much that I think Ness beats Rosalina outright, just that I think he puts up a decent challenge.

I actually disagree with him being better in the air though. I think he should keep her on the ground, as he can mess with Luma, while Rosalina can use Luma in the air to stop Ness' attacks in the air. Also, Ness is a small fry, so he can even crouch to avoid some attacks from Rosalina, I think (I know Toon Link can and he's about the same size as Ness). Stuff like PK Fire is also much easier to use at ground level, plus he can deflect Luma Shots with Side Smash (and I've heard this is apparently a OHKO if you actually hit her with the reflected Luma?).

I admittedly don't know the MU pretty well. I've played a few Ness players, but not under the best conditions, connection or health wise.

 

[Luco]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was, Ness' bat seems to reflect everything at like, double its regular damage and knockback. It's crazy hectic. @.@

I'm going to try and play this MU more before I make the judgement on Ness in the air. I only get it from a gut feeling but i'm not familiar enough as Rosi to really say. :/

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Rosalina does have one really distinct weakness, and that's that she has to be the worst character at getting out of juggles. She's super floaty, not really an outlier in aerial mobility (she's no Jigglypuff or Wario), and her aerials just do a really bad job of protecting her in those situations (or really any situation in which she's already been hit and needs to get back to neutral). I feel like you're going to start seeing some of what you saw back in Brawl with Olimar; she will just win the neutral, but when she does get hit, the opponent is going to have a real chance to really make it count. I still think Rosalina is a very strong character, but I really can't imagine her as the new MK or anything since she has some very real weaknesses and relies an awful lot on controlling the match and maintaining momentum to play her game.

After a lot of play and exploration, I'm finding four characters to be standouts from the rest: Rosalina, Villager, Yoshi, and Sonic. Rosalina can just be oppressive with her minion, Yoshi really does have almost no real weaknesses and can play any fundamental playstyle competently, Sonic is just the scariest rushdown character you could ask for (customs somehow make him substantially even more dynamic), and Villager wouldn't be in this club in general but the counter tree really is just that good of a move, IMO the single best move in the game, and the ability to summon that kind of a fortress wherever he wants makes him just hands down the best character at playing the spatial control game.

I feel like the game is very well balanced though and that almost anyone can compete with these characters, and if I tried to list all of the generally strong characters I thought were contenders to round out top 5, I'd probably end up listing about 1/3 of the cast. Especially remarkable is that only a few characters seem truly bad; Palutena is the only character I'm pretty sure I'm ready to write off at this point (my hopes for Olimar and Zelda are pretty dim, but they're non-zero). I think we're going to have a very messy topic here for many months more; the volume of stuff in this game that's actually viable just dwarfs what we've had to deal with before.

I will say that the one character I just see tons of potential in but haven't been able to explore meaningfully at all is Peach; I've always been bad with Peach and can't imagine playing a super technical character like her (with ICs gone, maybe the most technical character) on these awful 3DS controls, but everything I understand about how Peach works in the past games I put together with this engine and her massive buffs and fear she may be a sleeping giant in this game. Has anyone really been able to dig into what she can do in this game and see how it plays out overall?

 

[ChikoLad]

Should be noted that Ness' aerials would definitely useful at ground level, using them from short hops. I just don't think he should take to the air too much when against Rosalina.

Also I don't think Rosalina is the worst at getting out of juggles, at all. Her aerial mobility is better than most (I think she would come after Wario, Jigglypuff, and Yoshi honestly, which is still impressive), Launch Star is an effective get-away tool when used correctly, Luma extends her range (and can sneak in on the opponent even if unlinked), and her air dodge can play some hilarious mind games (she turns invisible when she uses it - not as big a deal for ground dodging since the movement distance is fixed, but in the air, she can move about freely while invisible, essentially, and can pop out at her opponent in an unexpected place). Plus, her aerials linger a lot and have excellent range as is. I've never had problems being juggled too much, ever. Even against ZSS, who's excellent at juggling even in the hands of average players.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Still haven't figured out if I like it more than Dragon Rush or not.

Well it's a poweful punisher that can kill, but is perhaps the least safe on shield in the game, vs a move that is at mach tornado levels of safety, safer offstage, and much safer on shield. It's also a pretty safe approach. The loss of that tech chase kill move can be a hefty cost, though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

She can't float cancel, big change you gotta get used to if you play her in PM and/or Melee, I do.

She can auto cancel but it's not the same shield pressure.

She's still good at the main thing that kept her good in past games, she's good against characters that rely on a lot of a ground neutral game, but aren't tanks like Snake with rediculous KO power.

Her edgeguard ing is good since you can go far out. Her turnips are wierd...it's the angle they go at, changed again but still they work.

Her side B is useable now, literally is like Zard's side B only faster on start-up but lacks KO power and if you miss a shield you get punished.

Bair got really nerfed on range, her new air is kinda better to catch people in the air, but lost the KO power her old one had. Dsmash got unnuttered, brawl Dsmash was awful this is actually a lot more useful.

It'll be a bit to judge her though, I Don't like any customs but the Turnips that create pressure traps, slow floaty ones, would still use normal over them.

My personal thoughts on Peach.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Rosalina does have one really distinct weakness, and that's that she has to be the worst character at getting out of juggles. She's super floaty, not really an outlier in aerial mobility (she's no Jigglypuff or Wario), and her aerials just do a really bad job of protecting her in those situations (or really any situation in which she's already been hit and needs to get back to neutral). I feel like you're going to start seeing some of what you saw back in Brawl with Olimar; she will just win the neutral, but when she does get hit, the opponent is going to have a real chance to really make it count. I still think Rosalina is a very strong character, but I really can't imagine her as the new MK or anything since she has some very real weaknesses and relies an awful lot on controlling the match and maintaining momentum to play her game.

Hmm, IDK about the worst (Zelda probably takes that particular title), but yeah, she's definitely bad at escaping aerial pressure. I 100% agree with the rest of it - she's great, but has exploitable weaknesses that prevent her from being totally ridiculous.

After a lot of play and exploration, I'm finding four characters to be standouts from the rest: Rosalina, Villager, Yoshi, and Sonic. Rosalina can just be oppressive with her minion, Yoshi really does have almost no real weaknesses and can play any fundamental playstyle competently, Sonic is just the scariest rushdown character you could ask for (customs somehow make him substantially even more dynamic), and Villager wouldn't be in this club in general but the counter tree really is just that good of a move, IMO the single best move in the game, and the ability to summon that kind of a fortress wherever he wants makes him just hands down the best character at playing the spatial control game.

I genuinely think that Villager will likely be mid tier (though probably upper mid rather than lower) later on. His spatial control is pretty damn awesome, but his recovery is a lot easier to gimp than most, his grab is one of the worst in the game and he lacks reliable kill moves; I reckon these three big flaws combined will be enough to keep him from being top 10.

I will say that the one character I just see tons of potential in but haven't been able to explore meaningfully at all is Peach; I've always been bad with Peach and can't imagine playing a super technical character like her (with ICs gone, maybe the most technical character) on these awful 3DS controls, but everything I understand about how Peach works in the past games I put together with this engine and her massive buffs and fear she may be a sleeping giant in this game. Has anyone really been able to dig into what she can do in this game and see how it plays out overall?

The fact that she has actual kill power now is huge in and of itself - USmash and FSmash are orders of magnitude more reliable than they were in brawl, Fair, Bair and Nair are as powerful as ever and she now has dash attack as a kill move too. Her new Uair isn't so good for killing, but given that it's much better at juggling opponents and has a wider arcing hitbox, that doesn't really matter too much. This is in addition to the floating, turnips and pressure shenanigans that she retained from Brawl (Fair is as good as it ever was - you just have to remain floated whilst doing it!)

I still don't see her as top 10, mind, but I don't reckon she'll be terribly far outside of it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

She can't float cancel, big change you gotta get used to if you play her in PM and/or Melee, I do.

She can auto cancel but it's not the same shield pressure.

She's still good at the main thing that kept her good in past games, she's good against characters that rely on a lot of a ground neutral game, but aren't tanks like Snake with rediculous KO power.

Her edgeguard ing is good since you can go far out. Her turnips are wierd...it's the angle they go at, changed again but still they work.

Her side B is useable now, literally is like Zard's side B only faster on start-up but lacks KO power and if you miss a shield you get punished.

Bair got really nerfed on range, her new air is kinda better to catch people in the air, but lost the KO power her old one had. Dsmash got unnuttered, brawl Dsmash was awful this is actually a lot more useful.

It'll be a bit to judge her though, I Don't like any customs but the Turnips that create pressure traps, slow floaty ones, would still use normal over them.

My personal thoughts on Peach.

I think Peach is much better in this game than she was in Brawl. She lost her cheesy 420 noscope MLG dial-a-combos but she can actually seal the deal at 120% or so which makes her more well-rounded. People are gonna do some SICK things with the slow-fall turnips.

Peach in Brawl was really poorly designed. She was completely braindead for the first 70% or so of each stock and utterly flaccid afterwards. Her Smash 4 design is much healthier and she's better for it. Sword characters are also significantly worse which is good for Peach who classically has fewer answers to spaced disjoints from the likes of Marth and Brawl MK.

I still worry about her ability to approach from behind. Peach is very slow and her best approaches are from the air. I mean seriously, people often forget just how slow Peach is on the ground. Maybe it's time to put those heels in the closet and invest in a pair of sneakers. Or alternatively, she can borrow ZSS' jet heels.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

That move made me love him.

I've caught people out so much and killed them across the stage early.

But yeah his aerials are just ok and some are meh. Ground moves are better.

I seem to always end up getting completely mutilated by his aerials. His spike almost always guarantees death and has little startup, his B-Air has a crazy sweetspot, and his U-Air is so strong. Sure, for the most part they're pretty slow, but with a proper read of the opponent's air-dodge they're absolutely devastating.

 

[Luco]

I recently went matched against a fellow who I beat all characters except his Peach. I did beat her most of the time but it was incredibly slim, to the point where twice we timed the match out due to neither party wanting to approach.

Peach's ability to space and dominate her area is incredible and she forces you to respect her bubble. She has plenty of ranging moves which can now kill much earlier and I believe she may have one of the fastest jabs in the game (what was hers in Brawl? One of the quickest i'm sure. I feel this is pretty much the same).

Honestly I think Peach is a beast. No idea where to place her but I don't see her placing any lower than she did in Brawl.

EDIT: On the topic of Ness vs. Rosalina, I can't see Launch Star as doing anything beneficial for Rosi. It launches her far very quickly but Ness can juggle that for sure, if not by his decent mobility then through PKT.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

(I think she would come after Wario, Jigglypuff, and Yoshi honestly, which is still impressive)

Please do not use terms like "I think" when referring to character stats.

Also Palutena is fine guise, she's just hard to play effectively.

 

[Luco]

Please do not use terms like "I think" when referring to character stats.

Also Palutena is fine guise, she's just hard to play effectively.

Hehe, soz aero. =) Has a thread with all character frame data been compiled and put up yet or is that still far off in the works?

 

[ChikoLad]

Please do not use terms like "I think" when referring to character stats.

Also Palutena is fine guise, she's just hard to play effectively.

I thought this was the "Character Competitive Impressions" topic, not the "Make Sure Everything You Post Is 100% Objective And Thoroughly Researched Before Saying a Word u scrub" topic.

My general impression from memory was that her aerial mobility is passed by Yoshi, Wario, and Jigglypuff, and everyone else is either on par or below her in this regard. And this has always helped me a lot when I play as her.

That may not be exactly right and people can feel free to correct me with statistics and what not, I'm just posting from memory. Regardless of where her aerial mobility stacks up in comparison to other characters, my point is that she has enough aerial mobility, and other tools, to make herself difficult to juggle. Don't know where this "worst character for being juggled" nonsense is coming from when she clearly has the tools to deal with juggling, some of which being unique to her.

Don't see why I'm singled out here either, since there are so many other posts here using "I think" or "probably" in the same manner, since that's what the topic title implies we can post - just our impressions.

EDIT: On the topic of Ness vs. Rosalina, I can't see Launch Star as doing anything beneficial for Rosi. It launches her far very quickly but Ness can juggle that for sure, if not by his decent mobility then through PKT.

You can angle the move as far as 45 degrees though, meaning you're sending her right to ground level. Ness wouldn't catch up to such speed horizontally. Plus, Luma can actually protect her while she's helplessly falling too.

 

[Berserker.]

I thought this was the "Character Competitive Impressions" topic, not the "Make Sure Everything You Post Is 100% Objective And Thoroughly Researched Before Saying a Word u scrub" topic.

Character stats are not subjective. I think that's what he's talking about

 

[ChikoLad]

Character stats are not subjective. I think that's what he's talking about

I know that, but not everyone can have objective information on hand every time they post. We're only human, we have lives. I'm posting from college right now, so I can't exactly go labbing right now. That's why I said "I think". To let people know my information was just from memory and not fully backed up.

Most posts here are just "from the top of my head" posts, and it's fine to post like that since the topic title implies that's what we should be doing:

impression
ɪmˈprɛʃ(ə)n/
noun
plural noun: impressions

1. 1.
   an idea, feeling, or opinion about something or someone, especially one formed without conscious thought or on the basis of little evidence.
   "his first impressions of Manchester were very positive"
   synonyms:feeling, sense, fancy, suspicion, sneaking suspicion, inkling, intuition,hunch, apprehension

 

[Luco]

Luma can but won't always, and 45 degrees isnt necessarily enough to protect her from Ness' (or quite a few characters') range depending on the situation. When being juggled she would have to move below the level of the stage. If above me and using launch star she really is dead meat. I just tested it then, if she launch stars, I will catch up to her and I will punish her.

In the case of the bot I have no way to tell if my aerial game beats hers or not. The only decent measure I could get was the couple times she actually used her upB in the situation you described. I was able to punish. :/

 

[Smooth Criminal]

On the other side of the coin, you are posting in a forum where everybody can see what your "impressions" are. Lot of room for fact-checking and counterpoints there.

@ KuroganeHammer , play nice.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ChikoLad]

Luma can but won't always, and 45 degrees isnt necessarily enough to protect her from Ness' (or quite a few characters') range depending on the situation. When being juggled she would have to move below the level of the stage. If above me and using launch star she really is dead meat. I just tested it then, if she launch stars, I will catch up to her and I will punish her.

In the case of the bot I have no way to tell if my aerial game beats hers or not. The only decent measure I could get was the couple times she actually used her upB in the situation you described. I was able to punish. :/

Bots are terrible for testing against Rosalina. They do not know how to use her at all. Often let Luma wander aimlessly, do not know how to use him for spacing, among tons of other things (including not knowing how to use Launch Star in smart and tricky ways).

It's also true for training against bots as Rosalina. They often don't seem to register Luma as a threat. Either that, or they keep dodging back and forth around him.

 

[Luco]

... I put the bot in the exact situation you were describing and it did what you described and I punished it... where's my ice cream prize? But alright then.

In a couple days my exams will be finished and i will have time to test this at leisure. I will happily go online with you and test all of these scenarios out.

Alternatively i'll look around the character boarda and see where this match-up has been played before.

 

[popsofctown]

So are people using that turnip cancel thing with Peach for massive shield pressure? Seems like you would be able to z-drop->dair->turnip cancel->dair in a loop and obliterate a shield, but I'm not technical enough to try it. Does that not work, or will it kinda require a GC controller, or what?

 

[DavemanCozy]

I don't think anyone is saying Bowser is bottom tier. His movepool is clearly too strong for that.

He can't however be stronger than mid tier, because his weaknesses...are just really, REALLY glaring. Poor vertical recovery, bad escapes from juggle traps, HUGE HURTBOX.

Running as fast as Marth and having some of the best ground normals in the game doesn't cut it when you're forced to stop your gameplan when someone starts spamming projectiles. Not to mention you have to deal with a crapton of fullhop spacing that nobody else has to deal with, and it's very hard for you to get back into neutral given poor landing options. Bowser's gameplan is amazing, until you pick things that force him to not play on his terms.

It's also pretty much the same exact deal for Mega Man. Great character until you have a reflector.

All very true. I played against a Mega Man last night that took me to losers. I then fought him again after climbing my way up the bracket, switched to Fox, and wiped the floor with him. The fact that his f-tilt, f-smash, and jabs can be reflected (at higher power and knockback, mind you) simply destroy his gameplan.

I do think, however, that even though these characters have noticeable flaws, their disadvantages aren't as glaring as, say Luigi vs MK in Brawl. I'm very happy with the balance of this game so far, there doesn't seem to be anyone that gets absolutely owned in a matchup, at least not yet.

 

[Radical Larry]

All very true. I played against a Mega Man last night that took me to losers. I then fought him again after climbing my way up the bracket, switched to Fox, and wiped the floor with him. The fact that his f-tilt, f-smash, and jabs can be reflected (at higher power and knockback, mind you) simply destroy his gameplan.

I do think, however, that even though these characters have noticeable flaws, their disadvantages aren't as glaring as, say Luigi vs MK in Brawl. I'm very happy with the balance of this game so far, there doesn't seem to be anyone that gets absolutely owned in a matchup, at least not yet.

Quite literally the only character that has a giant amount of counters.

 

[adamlon1]

Pac Man is amazing he can KO easily using his down special as it pushes your opponent off the edge and if that doesn't work his down smash has decent range (For a smash attack) and can KO at 80 or 90%. I don't really have any issues with Pac Man other than the fact that his down smash makes his forward smash useless since the down smash has more range. But other than that Pac Man seems almost perfect and his forward Special is also amazing with it being good recovery wise and attack wise.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hmm, IDK about the worst (Zelda probably takes that particular title), but yeah, she's definitely bad at escaping aerial pressure. I 100% agree with the rest of it - she's great, but has exploitable weaknesses that prevent her from being totally ridiculous.

Zelda is one of THE best characters in the game at getting back to neutral.

Good aerial mobility + teleport? Get out of all juggle and edge traps free.

Probably the only characters more silly at resetting back to neutral are like...Pac Man and Pikachu imo. Oh and probably Sonic for that matter.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Wario is easily one of the best at getting back to neutral due to his momentum shift:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdpmXxQ5TIk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO8frGPnyJw

 

[PKNintendo]

So does Palutena still suck with customs enabled? How disappointing.

That's actually confirmed now.
Lucina is literally/objectively less safe on every single move she has [on shield] than Marth is (some special attacks may run even as they have the same damage/properties).

(Please do not argue with me if you don't know what literally/objectively means... like some on the lucina boards :<)

Game over.

EDIT:

Super Speed + one of the best grab rewards in the game? I think not.

That special is actually good?Are we talking about Lightweight or Super Speed?

 

[A2ZOMG]

So does Palutena still suck with customs enabled? How disappointing.

Super Speed + one of the best grab rewards in the game? I think not.

EDIT: I probably meant Lightweight. I still haven't learned all the custom move names, my bad. Either way, when you get one of the fastest run speeds in the game and also happen to have the best pummel in the game + legit throw combos, yeah. Palutena is probably quite good with customs.

 

[RWB]

I've tested Swordfighter's Gale Strike vs Luma, and he didn't even react to the attack(it just passes through and hits Rosa, Luma doesn't even flinch, I believe).

EDIT: Wrong of me. Luma's hitbox apparently wasn't positioned right for Gale Strike to hit. He gets launched the same way any character would.

Still need to test Gale Strike vs Luma Shot.

Edit: As far as I can tell, Gale Strike will send an uncharged Luma flying, but higher charges will just have Luma shrug of the Gale... and the Gale will just continue past.

Not that it's that good a tool anyway with Gravitational Pull, but still.

 

[-Mars-]

Zelda is one of THE best characters in the game at getting back to neutral.

Good aerial mobility + teleport? Get out of all juggle and edge traps free.

Probably the only characters more silly at resetting back to neutral are like...Pac Man and Pikachu imo. Oh and probably Sonic for that matter.

No she doesn't. Good aerial mobility would be characters like ZSS, Sheik, Wario, Yoshi, Pac Man, Diddy etc characters that can either quickly change trajectory in the air while remaining safe or those that have good horizontal aerial movement in the first place.

Zelda using Farores wind to get back to the ground is laughable. Move has significant startup and is easily baited and punished. Furthermore you can only teleport down once you get to a certain threshold in the air or else you'll appear above the ground and have even more recovery.

 

[epicgordan]

Quite literally the only character that has a giant amount of counters.

Let's see:



That's a lot of counterpicks for Mega Man. Last I checked, the only non top 4 candidate that can counter Rosalina was Ness (and custom moves pending, possibly Sonic).

Edit: Actually, from the looks of it, a competent Duck Hunt player can probably play Rosalina down to neutral. Neutral special is really the only reliable option to use Gravitational Pull on, and even then, most DH players will use it mainly for baiting purposes. Side special can use Gravitational Pull on it as well, but it's not the Clay Pigeon Rosalina players should worry about; it's the invisible shots that GP has absolutely no answer for. That's why down special is so potent, as well as all of Duck Hunt's options. What hurts him in his matchup is his recovery, which Rosalina can punish easily (and yes, Duck Hunt can attack in one of his custom recoveries; not exactly going to help against Rosalina's disjointed aerials).

Really, at this stage, it'd be foolish to deny Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, or Rosalina the position of Top Tier. Greninja, I can somewhat understand, but he gets there due to his massively impressive matchups across the board and having arguably the best edgeguard in the game thanks to his recovery (though it will require a ton of practice in order to pull off successfully). Give him some FD versions of various stages, and he becomes all around a terror to be reckon with.

A lot of people will also cite characters like Yoshi, Sonic, and Diddy Kong as among the best in the game. And while I can see where they're coming from, Rosalina forces them to play her game, and Greninja has a much better offstage came than either of them. Those three will make high tier simply due to their combo potential and because they currently lack harsh counters anyways.

 

[A2ZOMG]

No she doesn't. Good aerial mobility would be characters like ZSS, Sheik, Wario, Yoshi, Pac Man, Diddy etc characters that can either quickly change trajectory in the air while remaining safe or those that have good horizontal aerial movement in the first place.

Zelda using Farores wind to get back to the ground is laughable. Move has significant startup and is easily baited and punished. Furthermore you can only teleport down once you get to a certain threshold in the air or else you'll appear above the ground and have even more recovery.

Zelda is good at changing directions in the air naturally, not completely unlike Wario or Yoshi. That's the part you missed. I shouldn't have to explain how much of a difference this makes when chasing a character in the air, as it's the primary reason Ness is relevant competitively and not bottom tier. She is not Ganondorf in the air. She actually has respectable air mobility.

Zelda gets back to the ground for free if she sees you jumping AT ALL or committing to ANY MOVE and she Up-Bs. If you're trying to capitalize on Zelda in the air, this effectively forces you to stay grounded to attempt to trap her landing, which as stated, is far from simple when trying to trap someone that easily is able to alter their trajectory midair on demand. This is ignoring that your opponent can almost never realistically cover all the directions you can teleport towards.

Anyone that's able to land trap Zelda consistently would have to inherently be ridiculously good at land trapping universally.

 

[ChikoLad]

Oh yeah, I unlocked all of Sonic's customs the other day, and they are very interesting.

There are one or two duds though. "Auto Spin Charge" may be a nice nod to the original Sonic CD, but it doesn't seem to make any difference to the move other than the charge method. I guess if you'd REALLY prefer to hold the button down rather than tap it Sonic 2 style, then you'd pick this move, but I don't know anyone who would. Especially since the default still allows for a potentially faster charge if you have a quick thumb. Default also allows you to hold a particular charge level for a second.

I also don't see the point in the Double Spring Jump. Even using both jumps right on top of each other, you don't go as high. So the intended purpose of the move seems to be that it would be better for horizontal recovery...except it really isn't. Sonic doesn't move fast enough from side to side in the air to be able to capitalise on the two jumps, meaning it's just an easy to gimp version of the move. Default also gives you invincibility frames on the way up, so it's just a lot better in every way.

The Spring Jump Attack (that probably isn't it's actual name, I can't remember off the top of my head) might actually be even better, since, well, it hurts opponents. It probably doesn't give you the invincibility frames though. However, I haven't been able to test that yet.

Other than that, they all seem pretty cool, especially Side B. Burning Spin Dash is super strong when Sonic rams into the opponent and seems great for ground level combos. Hammer Spin Dash is amazing for chasing opponents into the air, and you can also use it to bury opponents, like with DK's Side B.

 

[Cherubas]

Please do not use terms like "I think" when referring to character stats.

Also Palutena is fine guise, she's just hard to play effectively.

You forgot to quote about 60 other people. "I think" is showing up in about 2 out of 3 posts in this thread. I think it makes sense though, since the thread is Character Competitive Impressions, right? Impressions are more or less opinions.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

So I've played quite a few Shulk games since the game came out and here's a quick move-by-move analysis of what I think his strengths (many of them indeed) and weaknesses (also many) are.

Jab: Simple, combos from Buster Pummel. Quite slow, but useful to build up damage against foes like Mac who often bounce over your d-tilt.

F-tilt: One of Shulk's worst moves is still quite good. Its weakness is by far its speed, but it does a reasonable amount of damage and quite powerful knockback at high %. The range is useful when pivotting too.

D-tilt: Very fast, potentially Shulk's fastest aside from his jab, and quite spammable if the enemy is at long range and/or is a ground fighter with high aerial hitboxes like Bowser or WFT. Not very damaging though, but the hitstun is nice enough to allow you a roll away or prepare a smash and force them to evade.

U-tilt: Combos from Buster up-throw, lots of damage with Buster enabled and quite a good range too. I'm not sure about priority but it seems quite good against aerial fighters if you're not fighting back in the air yourself.

F-smash: Everyone knows that spot dodgers get rekt by this move, so it's not hard to evade in all honesty once you know what not to do, but it easily makes up for its bad speed with the tiltability (you can fail a KO at really high %s by not tilting the smash up when you hit them with the hilt) and sheer power of the move. With Monado Smash activated, you can KO pretty reliably at around the 80% mark, which with Buster is not a hard thing to get at all.

D-smash: Execution is key for pulling off this move as it's the widest opening of all Shulk's attacks. It's slower than Sonic's d-smash in Brawl, and has a pathetically lowhitbox, but it's more scary to run up against than even his f-smash. It's got a faster windup than his f-smash, which is certiainly a point in its favour, but the fact that it has the potential to hit three times on both sides is devastating unless you're a fighter with a good dair or get the timing just right.

U-smash: Beautiful. Monado Smash DACUS is devastating on unsuspecting opponents. It's also less punishable than his other smashes, and knocks up the enemy with the first hit, so works as a sort of slower but harder-hitting ROB Usmash. Buster Usmash also does huge damage too.

Nair: One of Shulk's most usable moves and one I often spam, fullhop nair autocancels and covers an INSANE area around him (roughly 240 degrees, i'd estimate) while doing great damage, having brilliant range and being arguably one of the best offstage controllers in the game. Dear god, this move is unbelievable.

Fair: If you want a faster nair with a little more knockback but more lag and less range, fair is perfect. Hits hard and fast, especially with Smash, and is a delightful kill when you can pull it off without getting in range for a large up-B hitbox like Link's spin attack.

Bair: I think this is too easily telegraphed to be really useful, but its knockback power can't be denied. This HURTS. Even without Smash activated this'll kill you in the early 100's, maybe before. Its lag is a bit of a problem though.

Uair: Another move which I think is too easily telegraphed, and not powerful enough to compensate for it. If you have Monado Speed and down-throw a high % into a shorthop uair you might get some use for it, but it's unlikely. My least-used move on Shulk, easily.

Dair: This move is REALLY good when it connects, but it has a super-narrow and super-short hitbox which don't do it any favours at all. Fortunately spike properties which now lead to huge combos and Monado Jump can set up some good situations for accurate players with this.

Neutral B - Monado Arts: List of most useful arts, from most used to least.
1: Buster
2: Smash
3: Shield
4: Jump
5: Speed

This isn't to downplay the lower arts in the slightest as Speed is insanely useful against quick characters like Falcon and Fox while he can also juke slower characters around well, but the truth of the matter is all of them are just SO GOOD that I was tempted to make a list with one bullet point. Without them, Shulk would be mid-bottom tier, maybe bottom. With them, he is a real force to be reckoned with.

Side B - Back Slash: I use this perhaps too often, but I find its huge range, great power and fantastic priority are more than enough reasons to spam it when you're just getting back to stage. You can also pull a tiny fakeout where you can change direction ofthe Slash mid-jump, but it's quite a small window for change so isn't that great. You might make some use of it against super-twitchy players but not much else.

Down B - Vision: This might just be the longest counter in the game, up there with Lucario's. I've fooled a LOT of people (not intentionally) by having them attack me on the very last frames of the animation and still have a huge blow to the face as a result. Of course the easiest way to ignore counters is to grab and the long length of Vision doesn't help that fact as well as its huge lag, but getting off a Smash Vision is SO satisfying.

Up B - Air Slash: A friend of mine said it's the second weakest recovery in the game outside of Little Mac's. I am laughing in his face right now. Air Slash is by far not the strongest recovery, but it is certainly a decent one, as combined with Monado Jump it's hard to get in its way to spike it out of the air... at least during the first attack. We'll ignore the second one cause it's so horrible. Or is it? Air Slash is actually one of Shulk's better killing moves when combined with Monado Smash, as it has a very quick startup and huge knockback on the second blow assuming the player can't SDI out in time. Just make sure you hit it... miss and you've pretty much guaranteed a strong smash attack for the enemy. Ouch. Monado Shield could also be used here, in the case that you think you might miss. It's perhaps like Rest, in that sense.

I have nothing else to say, except that Shulk is actually a more serious candidate for high tiers than people were expecting, I believe. I think that his many flaws do rest him below the top tiers, but his strengths are enough to put him in the top of the Mid tier, or bottom of the high one. I think his matchups list will be very impressive for what I assume will be a mid-tier candidate as he can deal wth Luma very effectively, as well as out-juke Little Mac and to an extent Greninja. Only time will tell, I guess!

I also wanna chip in slightly on the Palutena discussion: I think she's a lot better than I first imagined, but still no higher than the bottom 10 characters. Her grab game is really strong and her aerials are really impressive - it's just gonna be the use of her customs which define her as a semi-decent character of a below-average one.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

The only related thing I know is that luma shot or whatever it's called can't touch WFT when she's crouching.

 

[_Magus_]

Ganondorf is at the lowest gonna be mid tier. His biggest buff was the fact that edgehogging is gone, making it much harder to kill him (cuz he's a fatty ). Plus, every single aerial can easily kill offstage if used correctly, and he has tons of edgeguarding options. Ganondorf now has the advantage when his opponent is offstage/on the ledge. And don't forget about that kill power and better range

 

[Radical Larry]

Ganondorf is at the lowest gonna be mid tier. His biggest buff was the fact that edgehogging is gone, making it much harder to kill him (cuz he's a fatty ). Plus, every single aerial can easily kill offstage if used correctly, and he has tons of edgeguarding options. Ganondorf now has the advantage when his opponent is offstage/on the ledge. And don't forget about that kill power and better range

And the Flame Choke Suicide buff.
Last stock, Flame Choke off the stage, automatic Ganondorf win.