Character Competitive Impressions

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser Jr like Pac-Man would be insane and probably broken, except he has a tether grab, which of course is a noticeable nerf to offensive mixup.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Unless there's some amazing as-of-yet-undiscovered techniques I don't see Bj placing too high on a tier list when one is finally officially agreed upon. He's got tools, sure, but most of his moves are very punishable and easy to see coming, and his aerials just outright lose to some characters. Not to mention the few actual combos (I'm just talking about the guaranteed ones here) he has start with something really obvious and easy to block/shieldgrab like his kart or his drill. A lot of his moves are pretty strong, his f-tilt is really quick and effective, his cannonball can be useful for edgeguarding, his recovery (using his second jump, the free jump from the kart, and abandon ship) is pretty useful for gimping characters with weaker recoveries, and using his Up B against a really aggressive ZSS is very satisfying, but all players being equal I don't think Bj would win any tournaments.

I'm still maining him because I love the character more than any other Nintendo character and I want to be able to play him to his absolute fullest, but being totally honest I don't think he's the easiest character to pick up and play nor is he the one with the most potential to be unlocked.

Batting back cannonballs never gets old. Speaking of Ness, how do you guys feel he's faring now that we've had plenty of time to play with him?

 

[Kofu]

I played an interesting Zelda earlier who abused her defensive game. That's easily her strength. She also has powerful kill moves if properly used and her Throw seems to set a few of them up (maybe I'm just bad at avoiding follow-ups, wouldn't surprise me). I struggled with her more than I'd like to admit, though I feel that at least one of the kills the player got was assisted by lag causing my shield to come out a moment to late. The only matches I won (out of about five or six) were those that went to time where I won in Sudden Death (thank you based For Glory rules).

tl;dr If Zelda mains are willing to be patient and make the other player approach, they'll do decently. And I'm not talking about spamming Din's Fire.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Can't short hop any of his aerials except for down B. That hurts him quite a bit IMO. Especially when his grounded normals aren't too great and his throw range was brought down significantly (still decent range comparable to most Smash 4 characters tho).

His aerials are still pretty good in the right spots, harder to utilize due to the nature of what he needs to do to make them work but still can get the job done.

His ground game isn't bad.

 

[HiNiTe]

I do have to say that Peach is certainly a sleeping beast in this game. Maybe not top 5, but certainly up there. Most of the problems she had in Brawl are gone; actually, the only reason she was slightly usuable in Brawl was because of her unique ATs no other character had, but she also had a high learning curve due to this.

Again, in this game, she is likely to be the most technical character in the game mechanically. She has new tools that help her game, and she finally has something that she lacked in Brawl -- kill moves. Her aerials don't stale when she floats, a massive unintentional buff to her whole metagame, she can practically spam moves like Dair as much as she pleases and float out if she's unsafe. When damage is high enough, she can finally kill someone with Usmash (side sourspot hitboxes much more powerful), Fair (outranges and out-prioritizes many moves in the game), and her massively improved Fsmash (improved range on almost every weapon and cycles in a set order). Her faster Peach Bomber allows her to go in, she can bounce off shields away or forwards as she pleases too.

The problems she faces now is mostly just how she is as a character. She's still light and is slow on the ground. Being a highly technical character with a steep learning curve, and the 3DS doesn't bode well for her playstyle (she's not the only one with this problem).

Also, a bit unrelated, but I think the best characters in this game are Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Rosalina, Greninja and Yoshi. These five just have so many tools and abilities in comparison to the rest of the cast it's hard to believe, but we are still very early in the game with the Wii U version not released, so I hope to see more developments.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Batting back cannonballs never gets old. Speaking of Ness, how do you guys feel he's faring now that we've had plenty of time to play with him?

There's no Brawl Metaknight or grab releases. Character barely changed, but the game around him is a much tamer place, which makes him in comparison a lot stronger. Probably within the top 15-20 maybe?

His main problem is he still doesn't chase people very well (sorta compensated by PK Thunder traps), and his offstage recovery still isn't great, but his aerial spacing game is still there while most other characters who had better aerial spacing than him previously were nerfed.

 

[epicgordan]

I do have to say that Peach is certainly a sleeping beast in this game. Maybe not top 5, but certainly up there. Most of the problems she had in Brawl are gone; actually, the only reason she was slightly usuable in Brawl was because of her unique ATs no other character had, but she also had a high learning curve due to this.

Again, in this game, she is likely to be the most technical character in the game mechanically. She has new tools that help her game, and she finally has something that she lacked in Brawl -- kill moves. Her aerials don't stale when she floats, a massive unintentional buff to her whole metagame, she can practically spam moves like Dair as much as she pleases and float out if she's unsafe. When damage is high enough, she can finally kill someone with Usmash (side sourspot hitboxes much more powerful), Fair (outranges and out-prioritizes many moves in the game), and her massively improved Fsmash (improved range on almost every weapon and cycles in a set order). Her faster Peach Bomber allows her to go in, she can bounce off shields away or forwards as she pleases too.

The problems she faces now is mostly just how she is as a character. She's still light and is slow on the ground. Being a highly technical character with a steep learning curve, and the 3DS doesn't bode well for her playstyle (she's not the only one with this problem).

Also, a bit unrelated, but I think the best characters in this game are Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Rosalina, Greninja and Yoshi. These five just have so many tools and abilities in comparison to the rest of the cast it's hard to believe, but we are still very early in the game with the Wii U version not released, so I hope to see more developments.

I would add in Diddy Kong, Sonic and Little Mac into the mix as well (the latter, whose heavy armor neutral makes him a difficult character to punish unless you attack from behind). I am still speculating on a couple other options to wrap up the top ten, but it appears that Wario and Lucario will inevitably claim those two spots as well (at least for the initial tier list), but who can say? R.O.B., Ness, Peach, Duck Hunt, and Villager, I feel, would all be honorable mentions. I'd cite Mega Man and Pac-Man as well, though the latter has some easily punishable openings, and the former has some poor matchups too numerous to count (though I am currently feeling it for him much better than I am Toon Link, one of my Brawl mains).

Really, if Mega Man wins up low or bottom tier, it will be due to these matchups. Pac-Man, I'm feeling, will strictly be a counter-pick selection, though to his credit, at least Rosalina's Gravitational Pull won't really have much of an answer for many of Pac-Man's specials...when used properly, anyways (though it could still potentially gimp him off the stage, though the player would need to time it just right).

 

[HiNiTe]

I would add in Diddy Kong, Sonic and Little Mac into the mix as well (the latter, whose heavy armor neutral makes him a difficult character to punish unless you attack from behind). I am still speculating on a couple other options to wrap up the top ten, but it appears that Wario and Lucario will inevitably claim those two spots as well (at least for the initial tier list), but who can say? R.O.B., Ness, Peach, Duck Hunt, and Villager, I feel, would all be honorable mentions. I'd cite Mega Man and Pac-Man as well, though the latter has some easily punishable openings, and the former has some poor matchups too numerous to count (though I am currently feeling it for him much better than I am Toon Link, one of my Brawl mains).

Really, if Mega Man wins up low or bottom tier, it will be due to these matchups. Pac-Man, I'm feeling, will strictly be a counter-pick selection, though to his credit, at least Rosalina's Gravitational Pull won't really have much of an answer for many of Pac-Man's specials...when used properly, anyways (though it could still potentially gimp him off the stage, though the player would need to time it just right).

I do know about Diddy Kong and Sonic, they are very good, but they don't feel "the best" to me. Diddy Kong's only advantage is his setups with bananas and his aerials after grabs, but once you escape and read him, you can usually get in enough damage, and he doesn't do too well off-stage from what I see, but that's just my opinion; he could easily replace Yoshi in my list, I guess. I think Sonic is very predictable, honestly, and his metagame isn't very diverse at this point. Little Mac is not top tier, but he's somewhere up there. He's so easily edgeguardable and you can read his "Counter recovery" after a while. Good Little Macs are interesting, if anything. I think Ness is very good (no bias here, lol), not top, I like that he's finally good.

While Rosalina does seem to have some easily noticeable cons, her moveset makes up for it as a pro tensfold. She's light and has awkward hurtboxes, it's really her only problem, she gets juggled easily. Her somewhat slow ground speed and long animations for her moves (Fair and Gravitional Pull) have incredibly long durations for their hitboxes that it doesn't even matter, and several of her moves modify her hurtbox like Ftilt, Dtilt, Nair and Bair. With Luma, she's almost unstoppable, and without Luma, she has amazing defensive options to wait out for Luma to respawn. The only reason she wouldn't be #1 is because of Greninja, her only losing matchup imo.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ness' particle effects got nerfed hard from Brawl, bottom 10

 

[HiNiTe]

Ness' particle effects got nerfed hard from Brawl, bottom 10

lol yeah ik, such a shame, one of the first things that bugged me when i saw him the first time.

 

[Luco]

Ness' particle effects got nerfed hard from Brawl, bottom 10

It's tragic!

I actually have no idea though. His combos are brutal, like intensly brutal but I suspect as the meta evolves he'll have to find other ways of dealing with particular match-ups. Ness certainly hasn't changed too much; but then again he never needed to. Most people in Brawl said he would have been high tier or high mid if it wasn't for his two big detrimental factors (chain grabs and PKT). With those both mitigated, he's much better. I don't know where he gets this good match-up against Rosalina and I have no idea where to place him personally but it seems like he'll be a really good contender for high from what everyone's saying. Not even mid tier, Ness, you scrub!

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

EDIT: Didn't see the post that already pointed this out nevermind

 

[epicgordan]

I do know about Diddy Kong and Sonic, they are very good, but they don't feel "the best" to me. Diddy Kong's only advantage is his setups with bananas and his aerials after grabs, but once you escape and read him, you can usually get in enough damage, and he doesn't do too well off-stage from what I see, but that's just my opinion; he could easily replace Yoshi in my list, I guess. I think Sonic is very predictable, honestly, and his metagame isn't very diverse at this point. Little Mac is not top tier, but he's somewhere up there. He's so easily edgeguardable and you can read his "Counter recovery" after a while. Good Little Macs are interesting, if anything. I think Ness is very good (no bias here, lol), not top, I like that he's finally good.

While Rosalina does seem to have some easily noticeable cons, her moveset makes up for it as a pro tensfold. She's light and has awkward hurtboxes, it's really her only problem, she gets juggled easily. Her somewhat slow ground speed and long animations for her moves (Fair and Gravitional Pull) have incredibly long durations for their hitboxes that it doesn't even matter, and several of her moves modify her hurtbox like Ftilt, Dtilt, Nair and Bair. With Luma, she's almost unstoppable, and without Luma, she has amazing defensive options to wait out for Luma to respawn. The only reason she wouldn't be #1 is because of Greninja, her only losing matchup imo.

I never said these characters were top tier, but were among the best in the game. Diddy Kong cannot edgeguard as effectively as the big four can, but can rack up some serious combos super quickly. Sonic really doesn't match up well against any of the big four except, possibly Rosalina, and that's only when customs are involved; however, Sonic's focus is mainly a combination of trickery, bluffs, and in-your-face-style of fighting, and as such has some incredibly diverse ways in which you can play him. His unpredictability (especially since his custom specials can definitely take some people by surprise), and he even possesses some edge guarding capabilities.

Of all the characters in the game, a good Sonic player would have the best poker face in the game essentially. But it's much more than that, because good Sonic players make the opponents figure out how they play, and change up their tactics on the fly to keep the opponent guessing. Granted, this applies to everybody in some way, but Sonic does it better than just about anybody. Characters like the big four and Diddy Kong have their primary functions in place, but Sonic can do just about everything except camp. It helps that it isn't so easy to tell apart his side or down specials from one another based on face value, though as for customs, it's usually best to save those to take your opponent by surprise since he is generally at his best with his default moveset.

However, Sonic is at a disadvantage against the big four except for Rosalina (and maybe Sheik). Greninja can neutralize Sonic's air game and push him off the stage with Hydro Pump. Zero Suit Samus, meanwhile, can get away easily in the air and can set up combos with her paralyzer; Sheik might be an even matchup, but even her custom specials can neutralize Sonic better than most characters in general. Rosalina can stop a default Sonic, though custom moves can essentially turn the tide for Sonic and at the very least, even the odds.

Outside of that, the only blatantly poor matchup I can think of for Sonic is Little Mac, and that's because Little Mac has heavy armor in his neutral, and super armor in so many of his others; Sonic, meanwhile, cannot help but get close to him in order to attack. Characters with some sort of counter can also potentially stop Sonic, though that may require some ridiculous timing, in which case, only Lucario and Shulk have those sorts of benefits against him (and even in the latter's case, he can't spam it, either; it gets harder to pull off with each successive use).

Overall, if I were to make a top ten list of best characters right now, it would probably look something like this:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7. (everybody ranked above him can kick his rear, though he has favorable matchups against most others anyways)
8.
9.
10.

Honorable Mentions:

Again, only the top four would be Top Tier in my eyes; everyone else here is looking to be the most viable in the competitive scene with perhaps five or so others thrown in for good measure.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

What's the general consensus on Pac-Man? I feel like he's a bit underrated, imo.

 

[ChikoLad]

My friend of mine who is trying to get more into competitive Smash plays Pac-Man as his main.

I think he's a fun to use character, and in general, he's very solid. His Side Special in particular is really good.

However, he's terrible against Rosalina from what I can tell, and we play as our mains in most of our matches. She can Gravitational Pull his Neutral B and use it against him (even the key is easy to catch since the range on GP is huge), she can GP the Fire Hydrant as well as the water that comes from it, and she can even gimp Side Special with GP (since the Power Pellet is technically considered an item, a healing item to be specific). Pac-Man is also juggled very easily, while Rosalina has plenty of tools to deal with juggling, while also being awesome AT juggling. And his aerials and normals leave a lot to be desired against her, mainly in range (the Smash attacks aren't too bad though).

 

[Berserker.]

F-tilt: One of Shulk's worst moves is still quite good. Its weakness is by far its speed, but it does a reasonable amount of damage and quite powerful knockback at high %. The range is useful when pivotting too.

I feel like f-tilt is the slower and less ranged version of d-tilt :\

Basically, I only use it when I wanna do more damage but that's about it. Despite this, I still throw it out a lot when the opportunity comes.

However, he's terrible against Rosalina

Lol man. He wasn't even asking for that


Oh and Kirby feels the same. Except for his side B, he feels the same

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Shulks ftilt kills, very well in fact, his dtilt does not. This creates edge guard opportunities fairly early and an F-smash alternative. His dtilt allows him to chase to a f-air/Nair and then go for an edge guard and is a good option out of a Nair.
Kind of different beasts. Ftilt is faster than F-smash which is what it is really competing against.

 

[Berserker.]

I really don't care about KO'ing with f-tilt anymore. It's all in air slash. KO'ing at around 85%

I haven't seen much about Wario though. Anyone has any input on him?

 

[ChikoLad]

Lol man. He wasn't even asking for that

So?

99% of my matches against Pac-Man are as Rosalina. So the most informed opinion of him I have is how he fares against Rosalina in particular. Which is, not very well.

I noted that since I was able to go into some actual detail on it. However, I still noted that he's a very solid character in general.

I might ask my friend what he likes about him (since he mains him), and come back with that info later. But I cannot do that right now. He's not available to contact.

Again, like before, I don't see why I'm being singled out on things. It makes sense that people would have more to say in relation to their mains, than on any other character. This includes having better knowledge on how other characters fair against your main, compared to how that character fares in general.

 

[Berserker.]

So?

No malice intended with the post. Just pointing out things when I feel like it but anyway, it's cool

 

[ChikoLad]

In regards to Wario, I think he's an underdog. Doesn't seem to have much appreciation now, but he has tons of potential.

And I've seen some pretty ridiculous stuff done with him. Things I still cannot comprehend. @_@

 

[Berserker.]

Yeah. He looks great so far. I'm just wondering why he doesn't get that much attention

But since this character impressions and I got my own opinions, he feels disgusting. I think this is why I don't like using him *snort*

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Because Competitive farting is all kinds of odd.

 

[Terotrous]

Some more thoughts on the top 3 from watching last week's shockwave:

Sheik honestly might be the second best character in any Smash Bros game (after Brawl MK obviously). She has everything. Great speed, power, mobility, extremely safe on everything, the best combos in the game, fantastic throws, one of the game's best projectiles, and fantastic recovery to boot. She's definitely much stronger even than she was in Melee, in a game where almost everyone else who was a big threat in Melee is much weaker. She is #1 for sure, no one else even has a chance of dethroning her because she has no weaknesses whatsoever.


Rosalina is also way up there. She's basically a better Ice Climbers, retaining all of their strong points (except instadeath chaingrabs) but with all of their weaknesses removed. Unlike Sopo, Rosalina is a top 5 character even without Luma, she has incredible power, hitboxes, and recovery even when her little pal is dead or separated from her. (and he respawns ludicrously fast even when he dies). Luma just serves to make her inordinately difficult to approach or grab because she can punish after you land a legitimate hit. Comebacks are virtually impossible against her because even if you play solid and win the neutral Luma is going to land a few stray hits on you sooner or later.


Little Mac rules the ground, but I'm becoming increasingly convinced he is #3 after those two simply because he actually does have weaknesses and his survival is generally fairly bad against most characters (though he makes up for it by killing super early). He would probably be fine if not for KO Punch. He gets at least 3 per match, and if he lands even one, he will likely win because it just gives him such a huge advantage in the damage race. It's not in any way difficult to land, either, he has multiple options for comboing into it and it's also unblockable, making it absurdly risky to shield against him when he has it since he can dash in and jump cancel into it.


Anyway, it's way early to be talking about fixes, but I'm going to do it anyway. Here's what I would like to see in the balance patch that will clearly never come because Nintendo never does balance patches.


- If Down B does not hit, Sheik becomes helpless

This significantly weakens her recovery (it's now only slightly better than Melee) and also makes her off-stage chase game less ridiculous. You can still attempt Fair to DownB, just be prepared for the fact that you might die if done at the wrong percents. The move is still fairly safe if used to recover on-stage, or if used in a combo above the stage.


- UpB consumes Luma (it transforms into the launch star, like in Galaxy), cannot be used if Luma is not nearby
- Luma's respawn time increased to 20s (up from 10s)

This gives her a significant incentive to keep Luma alive and with her, if Luma dies Rosalina's recovery is the worst in the game, akin to Sopo. Luma also no longer respawns as quickly, so once again you have to be more careful with how you use Luma.


- KO punch does significantly less knockback (kills around 70% on most characters)

A pretty obvious fix really. No comboable attack should be killing at 30%, particularly not on a character who's already super strong. This really isn't a huge nerf, Little Mac is still super strong without KO punch, this is just what pushes him over the top.


It's quite likely that some bad characters also need some buffs, but that's a topic for another time.

 

[andalsoandy]

Robin is most certainly not S-tier, lol

I saw a lot of people immediately assume he was high tier and I didn't really see why not so I just put him there lol.

I don't know a whole lot about the guy so I played it based off of a couple of other opinions.

Dude, Rosalina is Top 5 easily. How did you come to the conclusion she was high-mid?!

idk I don't really see why everyone hypes her up. She's really slow IMO and it seems a little too difficult to control Luma properly.

No, tier lists really are not allowed. However, if you are providing significant amount of information/reason behind your opinions I'll likely let it slide (or if its more like an end note and you make it blatantly obvious its just that).

The moment you just freely make a list of opinions without any backing, is the moment you get the replies of

"

Which I honestly want to infract all of them.
But I know I did let that one person post a "full list" without this message, but I didn't do anything about it because people weren't replying to it like the above two quotes. And I was so so so happy people didn't take the opportunity to go "MY OPINION > YOUR OPINION" from it was essentially why I didn't bother.
Soooo what does this all mean.

Discussing self-opinionated tier lists in this thread is against the rules. Do me a favour and delete it or heavily revise and justify verbosely every reason for your ideas.

Wait, didn't I justify at least most of them with the explanations I provided below the actual list?

okie dokie I'll fix it anyway.

 

[Shaya]

No point doing that now friend, time has moved quite forward

 

[andalsoandy]

No point doing that now friend, time has moved quite forward

ick where the heck did time go

alright. thx for letting me go scott free.

 

[Luco]

Due to her less safe aerial game on shield Shaya, how do you feel about Lucina's placement and in what match-ups or circumstances do you think this will affect Lucina the most?

this is directed at anyone who has a good idea of it, I realise it's just something you're interested in and have knowledge on. :o

 

[kyxsune]

Wait I thought a shiek vs ZSS is a favorable match up for ZSS?

 

[Berserker.]

I'm pretty sure Lucina is still viable. It's just that there's pretty much 0 (Or nearly 0) reason to use her over Marth. Unless you like the character or find her pretty or whatever.

 

[ChikoLad]

idk I don't really see why everyone hypes her up. She's really slow IMO and it seems a little too difficult to control Luma properly.

I don't see why everyone says Rosalina is slow when her dash speed is above average (i.e. faster than Mario's), as is her horizontal aerial speed.

When she fast falls, she falls at an average pace (as in, still faster than most normal falls), which isn't too bad.

And her attacks come out very quickly (as do Luma's). They last a long time, but that's more a good thing than anything, especially since she has lots of priority. These moves protect her. They are punishable if not used correctly though.

Also her rolls are quick and have some of the best distance in the game, and make her invisible to boot (since she is "warping").

As for Luma being "difficult to control", he's actually simple to control. Mastering the applications of that control is difficult, but that just means Rosalina takes more skill to play properly. It doesn't mean she's worse off, since she just takes time. Some people are right at home with her from the get go, though.

 

[Terotrous]

As for Luma being "difficult to control", he's actually simple to control. Mastering the applications of that control is difficult, but that just means Rosalina takes more skill to play properly. It doesn't mean she's worse off, since she just takes time. Some people are right at home with her from the get go, though.

To be honest, I don't think Rosalina takes any more skill than anyone else, because you don't have to know what you're doing with Luma. You can just keep him with you the whole time and never use any of his specific moves and Rosalina is still a fantastic character. This is one of the biggest problems with her, you should have to know what you're doing with Luma for her to be a solid character, but since Rosalina's own properties are so good you can basically just ignore him and still do quite well.

 

[ChikoLad]

To be honest, I don't think Rosalina takes any more skill than anyone else, because you don't have to know what you're doing with Luma. You can just keep him with you the whole time and never use any of his specific moves and Rosalina is still a fantastic character. This is one of the biggest problems with her, you should have to know what you're doing with Luma for her to be a solid character, but since Rosalina's own properties are so good you can basically just ignore him and still do quite well.

I disagree with that, since Luma is relatively easily removed if the opponent is good, and one of Rosalina's biggest strengths is being able to have that damage sponge and extra unit that is Luma, to control space. In most match-ups, there is no reason to not use this.

And even Rosalina herself is tricky to use. I admittedly didn't understand the hype for her aerials for a while until I went out of my way to practice them. You can't just use them like it's nothing, they require finesse. As do her Smash attacks.

If you want to be a good Rosalina player across the board, you do have to put a lot of work in, and not many people can say they are good at using her across the board.

I think she is potentially the best character in the game, since she is improvisation incarnate thanks to Luma and as a result her meta will never stay still and be easily defined, and she rewards all kinds of skilled play styles. However, it's down to how the player can apply her.

I don't think she's like Little Mac and ZSS though, where virtually anyone can pick them up and do OK with them.

 

[ZombieBran]

She's really slow IMO and it seems a little too difficult to control Luma properly.

She really is not slow.
Her moves come out fast and aren't laggy -especially considering their great reach- and she has average walk speed and above average dash. Her aerial mobility is also very good.

I suspect you mean "floaty" when you say slow. Because she does have a slow fall speed.

 

[Terotrous]

And even Rosalina herself is tricky to use. I admittedly didn't understand the hype for her aerials for a while until I went out of my way to practice them. You can't just use them like it's nothing, they require finesse. As do her Smash attacks.

I'm not really sure how you didn't see the hype. They have gigantic hitboxes (likely with disjoints, uair and dair definitely have big disjoints) and are very strong. Her aerials are basically like Zelda's aerials, except way better.

Her ground normals are also great, her dash attack is easily one of the best in the game, utilt, ftilt, usmash, and fsmash are also very good, and she has solid throws. There's honestly just nothing too complicated here, she's a very solid character even without Luma. She's certainly not like the Ice Climbers, who have terrible range and a lot of startup on most of their normals.


And yes, Luma's easy to kill, the problem is that killing him confers no advantage because Rosalina is still really good without him and he comes back almost instantly. That's why I think the way to fix her as a character is to make her more dependent on Luma being alive and make him come back slower.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I don't get it some of her issues are well exploitable enough to discuss.
The easily shield grabbed Dash, the laggy grab, delay between projectile shots. Her well ranged attacks (whip) have notable durations for exploitation. I get she's combo friendly but how many options does she *really* have against well spaced Swords. Granted her Flip being invincible is ********.

Half of these things aren't actually weaknesses. Also you talk about "well ranged attacks" but have you SEEN her tilts and aerials? Her ftilt has approximately the same range as Marth's dtilt and her dtilt matches his ftilt. She does fine against swords. Also don't forget, that laggy grab can catch you from almost halfway across FD if boosted or roll canceled.

What weaknesses does ZSS have? I can name them for everyone else who people are calling goid but I struggle to think of ones with her outside of, sone punishable lag on start-up cooldown/no real answer to a legit camp game.

Lack of an offstage game/average vertical recovery is the first thing that comes to mind, she should never get an early kill against anyone with a half decent recovery. Anything else beyond what you've said is only debatably a weakness right now I think. She's got enough range to protect her on block (and she does have options that are decent on block), she generally relies on setups into kill moves (especially for up-b) but she can definitely get those setups, etc.

Can you tell me what's bad about Marth without referencing past games?

His attack range doesn't really stand out relative to the rest of the cast (see the above for just one example of many) and his frame data lacks sufficient speed to give him a reasonable amount of safety. His disjoint is his primary means of safety, but he has to work hard to make the best use of it. His landing lag is average to slightly high; fastest option has 15 frames landing lag and his autocancel windows where they exist come long after the active frames. Grab game is probably averageish (okay range if roll canceled, low damage, sets up for his traps, uthrow kills at high percents). Tippers don't link well on his multihit moves (nair/db), limiting his reward from them.

He's still a solid character, but he's not without flaws this time around.

 

[Fex13]

sheik is the beast of this game and i hope that the wii u version wont change anything and she will have all her combos she does have now.

sleeper of this game at the moment:

 

[mimgrim]

People keep on citing Mac's recovery as the reason he isn't top tier. .-.

I guess Olimar is Brawl isn't top 3 because he is the easiest character to edge-hog in the game, pathetically easy. And I guess Melee Falco isn't top 2 because his recovery is also horrible.

I can understand why he might not be top tier, but goddamn, stop citing his recovery as the reason. Bad recovery isn't a big deal when a character has a good on-stage game, which Mac has in spades.

>_>

 

[_Magus_]

Exactly what I was thinking. Little Mac is not a cheap character in my opinion at all. I have no problem whooping up on him. I love it when people choose him in For Glory mode.

As for Diddy, I don't understand why he's so good. I'm off to the Diddy section to learn a few things as a lot of people say he's quite amazing. Also, in addition to my current list of great or better characters (Zelda, Sonic, King Dedede), I'd like to add Greninja. He can be hard to handle in the beginning, but seems to be one of the better characters in the game.

To the person who mentioned Ganon being buffed quite a bit, I couldn't agree more. He seems like he'll be in the upper half (although not near the top). Probably around where my Jiggs will land.

Edit: I also stick with my previous message. Rosaluma won't be top 7. She's overhyped to the max.

...King Dedede?

*face palm*

And thank you for agreeing. XD

 

[_Magus_]

Only flaw I can find with Ganon is one he's always had: pressure. Sure he can deal with it more easily now, but that's not saying much. If a character has a decent projectile, Ganon has trouble. Not unwinnable, but harder.