Character Competitive Impressions

[ChikoLad]

OK, so I didn't mention it here, but for a while, I've been of the opinion that Little Mac needs some changes because right now he rewards poor timing and all around unskillful play WAAAY too much, which is why he is used in FG so much - people don't need to think about what they are doing to do well.

This belief has been solidified though, as what happened to me just now can only be described as bull****:

I was playing as Kirby, FYI.

Thankfully, I still managed to win the match, but that doesn't change the fact that Little Mac was able to totally ignore my Hammer.

Hammer is a slow, close range, powerful move. If I manage to hit you with it, that's because you were being reckless, by using punishable attacks carelessly, and you more than deserve to be sent away by the Hammer.

In this instance, he began charging a Side Smash just as I was already about to hit him (punishing him for something else, not sure what, I just know I started Hammer before his Side Smash). He deserved to be punished in this instance, but no, he's able to shrug of Hammer of all things, and send me flying.

This is a serious problem. Carelessness should not be rewarded like this.

Oh, and he also gets a hefty addition to his Power Meter too, because that gets filled up by taking damage AND dishing it out, both of which he did here.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Ganondorf is at the lowest gonna be mid tier. His biggest buff was the fact that edgehogging is gone, making it much harder to kill him (cuz he's a fatty ). Plus, every single aerial can easily kill offstage if used correctly, and he has tons of edgeguarding options. Ganondorf now has the advantage when his opponent is offstage/on the ledge. And don't forget about that kill power and better range

With customs he gets way better too. His recovery becomes good horizonatally and vertically and things like Side B 3 (I think its 3... whatever the multihit one is) help for approach a lot. Ganon is really not bad (though no one seems to be right now).

 

[_Magus_]

Scrubs is saying Ganondorf is still bad. I love it cuz they underestimate us Ganon mains and play recklessly. XD

 

[Smooth Criminal]

OK, so I didn't mention it here, but for a while, I've been of the opinion that Little Mac needs some changes because right now he rewards poor timing and all around unskillful play WAAAY too much, which is why he is used in FG so much - people don't need to think about what they are doing to do well.

This belief has been solidified though, as what happened to me just now can only be described as bull****:

I was playing as Kirby, FYI.

Thankfully, I still managed to win the match, but that doesn't change the fact that Little Mac was able to totally ignore my Hammer.

Hammer is a slow, close range, powerful move. If I manage to hit you with it, that's because you were being reckless, by using punishable attacks carelessly, and you more than deserve to be sent away by the Hammer.

In this instance, he began charging a Side Smash just as I was already about to hit him (punishing him for something else, not sure what, I just know I started Hammer before his Side Smash). He deserved to be punished in this instance, but no, he's able to shrug of Hammer of all things, and send me flying.

This is a serious problem. Carelessness should not be rewarded like this.

Oh, and he also gets a hefty addition to his Power Meter too, because that gets filled up by taking damage AND dishing it out, both of which he did here.

Have you ever thought of the inverse---that you were punished for carelessly throwing out a move that could be easily stopped by the other character?

Smooth Criminal

 

[ChikoLad]

Have you ever thought of the inverse---that you were punished for carelessly throwing out a move that could be easily stopped by the other character?

Smooth Criminal

No, because I was hitting him already right as he missed me with another move, and he was somehow able to shrug off that flinch.

The game tells you that weak attacks are what are shrugged off by super armour. Nothing else.

Kirby's Hammer does 19% uncharged, and can KO Mac at around 100% on Omega Battlefield.

That's not what I classify as a weak attack. That should have sent him flying. Again, he should not be rewarded for getting hit by such a slow, powerful, and close range attack.

 

[M15t3R E]

The game tells you that weak attacks are what are shrugged off by super armour. Nothing else.

Super armor has been in every SSB game in some form. It was seen more in brawl than in previous titles but it is most prevalent now with Little Mac. He cannot be flinched at all when using a few of his attacks. You could have hit him with the fully charged hammer- it wouldn't have made a difference.

 

[victra♥]

falcon is good

 

[SonicZeroX]

Speed Monado + Nair spam is nuts. You have the SHFF Nair speed of Fox but combined with Marth's range. Actually it's even better than Marth's range and you run even faster than Fox.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

No, because I was hitting him already right as he missed me with another move, and he was somehow able to shrug off that flinch.

The game tells you that weak attacks are what are shrugged off by super armour. Nothing else.

Kirby's Hammer does 19% uncharged, and can KO Mac at around 100% on Omega Battlefield.

That's not what I classify as a weak attack. That should have sent him flying. Again, he should not be rewarded for getting hit by such a slow, powerful, and close range attack.

Mac isn't the only one in this game with super armor, you know. Plenty of characters could have tanked that hammer.

Besides, you're presenting it like this one single factor makes the character unreasonable--no one thing makes a character good in a vacuum. A character like Mac has DRASTIC shortcomings in other areas; shortcomings that are all the more obvious when he gets off of FD. Until Mac starts dominating top 8s--and I don't think he will--the character is far from problematic.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Impressions of Pit anyone? I feel like he might end up where he was in Brawl but slightly higher

 

[ChikoLad]

Super armor has been in every SSB game in some form. It was seen more in brawl than in previous titles but it is most prevalent now with Little Mac. He cannot be flinched at all when using a few of his attacks. You could have hit him with the fully charged hammer- it wouldn't have made a difference.

The game literally tells you "weak attacks" outright in the Tips menu. As in, quick things like jabs and tilts, and most aerials.

By the game's logic, I deserved to launch him there since Hammer is far from a weak attack.

I think it's utterly stupid that he can literally attack through a slow, heavy hitting move like Hammer. This goes back to what I was saying about Little Mac not needing to think about things that other characters normally would have to think about. Being allowed to throw fundamental rules out the window.

Besides, you're presenting it like this one single factor makes the character unreasonable

It's not this one single factor, I made a post elsewhere that was more extensive. I just think this personifies my opinion on him perfectly.

My problem is not that I think he is overpowered (I do fine against him with Rosalina), it's that he rewards careless and unskillful play.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Speed Monado + Nair spam is nuts. You have the SHFF Nair speed of Fox but combined with Marth's range. Actually it's even better than Marth's range and you run even faster than Fox.

Only qualm is Shulks follow ups aren't as strong, but he can space well.

 

[Tepip]

I don't know guys but sonic is the best agianst jiggly puff.

​

 

[Tristan_win]

The game literally tells you "weak attacks" outright in the Tips menu. As in, quick things like jabs and tilts, and most aerials.

By the game's logic, I deserved to launch him there since Hammer is far from a weak attack.

I think it's utterly stupid that he can literally attack through a slow, heavy hitting move like Hammer. This goes back to what I was saying about Little Mac not needing to think about things that other characters normally would have to think about. Being allowed to throw fundamental rules out the window.



It's not this one single factor, I made a post elsewhere that was more extensive. I just think this personifies my opinion on him perfectly.

My problem is not that I think he is overpowered (I do fine against him with Rosalina), it's that he rewards careless and unskillful play.

The fact little mac is so strong, fast, and can trade blows with his smashes is the reason why little mac isn't bad. In the next year or so little mac's are going to learn how to abuse their super armor and make it very difficult for any character to approach them while at the same time with ftilt, jabs and overall speed allow him to still approach. To abuse their super armor correctly it's going to take a lot of knowledge and guts so lack of thought wont be a problem.

I agree with you how Little mac is somewhat noob friendly but in the hands of a master a few years from now he's going to be extremely scary.

 

[Shaya]

I'm not sure what is considered super armor breaking.
I know that Little Mac's neutral b charge has super armor, and he'll be hit out of it with any move that does 8% or more damage.

I'd assume other super armor [charge?] moves can have them cancelled.
But it otherwise looks like little mac's forward smash was already coming out during that time, and perhaps could not be clanked with due to whatever property.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I'm not sure what is considered super armor breaking.
I know that Little Mac's neutral b charge has super armor, and he'll be hit out of it with any move that does 8% or more damage.

I'd assume other super armor [charge?] moves can have them cancelled.
But it otherwise looks like little mac's forward smash was already coming out during that time, and perhaps could not be clanked with due to whatever property.

Mac's Neutral B Charge has Heavy Armor. Heavy Armored moves have a certain threshold where they will eventually receive knockback, while super doesnt (iirc). F Smash, D Smash, Up Smash have Super.

http://smashboards.com/threads/invincibility-and-armor-list.371822/

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What weaknesses does ZSS have? I can name them for everyone else who people are calling goid but I struggle to think of ones with her outside of, sone punishable lag on start-up cooldown/no real answer to a legit camp game.

 

[Locke 06]

What weaknesses does ZSS have? I can name them for everyone else who people are calling goid but I struggle to think of ones with her outside of, sone punishable lag on start-up cooldown/no real answer to a legit camp game.

Kill moves?

 

[kyxsune]

Kill moves?

naw she has 3 , 6 above 150% for most charachters

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

In terms of strongest kill moves? A lot of characters can beat her out in that area. But she still has some solid kill moves with other attributes.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

What weaknesses does ZSS have? I can name them for everyone else who people are calling good but I struggle to think of ones with her outside of, sone punishable lag on start-up cooldown/no real answer to a legit camp game.

I don't get it some of her issues are well exploitable enough to discuss.
The easily shield grabbed Dash, the laggy grab, delay between projectile shots. Her well ranged attacks (whip) have notable durations for exploitation. I get she's combo friendly but how many options does she *really* have against well spaced Swords. Granted her Flip being invincible is ********.

 

[BBC7]

What weaknesses does ZSS have? I can name them for everyone else who people are calling goid but I struggle to think of ones with her outside of, sone punishable lag on start-up cooldown/no real answer to a legit camp game.

ZSS can't kill early. That's a big weakness and you exploit it as much as possible for your character.

 

[FierceFox]

Have you ever thought of the inverse---that you were punished for carelessly throwing out a move that could be easily stopped by the other character?

Smooth Criminal

Exactly what I was thinking. Little Mac is not a cheap character in my opinion at all. I have no problem whooping up on him. I love it when people choose him in For Glory mode.

As for Diddy, I don't understand why he's so good. I'm off to the Diddy section to learn a few things as a lot of people say he's quite amazing. Also, in addition to my current list of great or better characters (Zelda, Sonic, King Dedede), I'd like to add Greninja. He can be hard to handle in the beginning, but seems to be one of the better characters in the game.

To the person who mentioned Ganon being buffed quite a bit, I couldn't agree more. He seems like he'll be in the upper half (although not near the top). Probably around where my Jiggs will land.

Edit: I also stick with my previous message. Rosaluma won't be top 7. She's overhyped to the max.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Exactly what I was thinking. Little Mac is not a cheap character in my opinion at all. I have no problem whooping up on him. I love it when people choose him in For Glory mode.

As for Diddy, I don't understand why he's so good. I'm off to the Diddy section to learn a few things as a lot of people say he's quite amazing. Also, in addition to my current list of great or better characters (Zelda, Sonic, King Dedede), I'd like to add Greninja. He can be hard to handle in the beginning, but seems to be one of the better characters in the game.

To the person who mentioned Ganon being buffed quite a bit, I couldn't agree more. He seems like he'll be in the upper half (although not near the top). Probably around where my Jiggs will land.

Edit: I also stick with my previous message. Rosaluma won't be top 7. She's overhyped to the max.

Could you explain a bit more why you think Zelda and Dedede are "great or better?" I think they're definitely "okay," but "great" seems a bit of an overstatement to me (as a Zelda player) - especially with the claim that Rosalina isn't as great as she's chalked up to be. Just curious. Zelda is who I'm mainly fishing for here - I don't particularly understand what would make Dedede super great either, but I also don't play him enough to have a solid view on him so I can't really argue.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Could you explain a bit more why you think Zelda and Dedede are "great or better?" I think they're definitely "okay," but "great" seems a bit of an overstatement to me (as a Zelda player) - especially with the claim that Rosalina isn't as great as she's chalked up to be. Just curious. Zelda is who I'm mainly fishing for here - I don't particularly understand what would make Dedede super great either, but I also don't play him enough to have a solid view on him so I can't really argue.

Zelda at least has an excellent way of escaping bad situations in Farore's Wind. She can use it to return to the ground, reverse positioning relative to the edge, or skip over any amount of projectiles and suddenly be in your face. It helps that the new edge mechanics prevent her from being edgehogged, so she's more viable offstage too.

That's really the only part of her kit I'm familiar enough with to comment on. Her normals are no doubt changed from Brawl but I'm not as knowledgeable on them as I'd like.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Dedede is good, not great. Trust me. He's gonna have to work extremely hard in most of his matchups.

Smooth Criminal

 

[The Real Gamer]

Just curious what's the general consensus on Zard atm?

Game hasn't been out long enough to draw definite conclusions but based on my play and results thus far I have a REALLY hard time seeing him being bottom 5 like quite a few seem to think.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You already know how I feel about 'Zard. ****ING FLARE BLITZ!

Real talk, 'Zard is good. I have a hard time believing that he isn't at the top of this middling tier-pile that's concocted by the community. He's heavy, he's mobile, he's got pretty decent normals, and a lethal punish game.

Smooth Criminal

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Yeah but what happens to his punish game when he takes Dragon Rush over flare blitz? Most people that looked at his specials agree that it should at least be used the majority of the time, for reasons. (have I mentioned its safe?)

 

[Novice_Brave]

Zelda at least has an excellent way of escaping bad situations in Farore's Wind. She can use it to return to the ground, reverse positioning relative to the edge, or skip over any amount of projectiles and suddenly be in your face. It helps that the new edge mechanics prevent her from being edgehogged, so she's more viable offstage too.

That's really the only part of her kit I'm familiar enough with to comment on. Her normals are no doubt changed from Brawl but I'm not as knowledgeable on them as I'd like.

Farore's is a great move, good for punishing the generally laggy projectiles that get thrown around a lot - but it's not a great move for just moving about the stage. The lag upon reappearance is way too high to think about just teleporting about and expect to do so for free. Zelda's safest option to return to the stage in most cases is simply using Farore's into the ledge (which, yes, thankfully it can finally grab without going the full distance!)

Not enough to make her "great" though imo. She's pretty much a walking kill move depository, which is good in that she has plenty of options that she can use to net early KOs in a game where early KOs are a good gift to have... but bad in that she can't effectively rack damage to GET to where those moves can kill, in that most of those are difficult and unreliable to hit (4 of them require sweetspots - 1 requires fully charging a move, uair is quite slow and fsmash can whiff if you mess it up), and that her general stat spread is rather unfortunate. She's got a large-ish hurtbox, she's still in the lower 1/4 of weight, and among the slowest dash speeds in the game.

Zelda is mostly held back just by effect of her still being Zelda. Her moveset is rigid, she has a sorry stat spread, and she's got more than a few moves that leave her very vulnerable.

Now, that's not to say I think she's the worst here anymore. Her ground game is fairly good - pretty solid tilts, strong+fast dash attack and a jab you can act out of very quickly allow her to put a good amount of hurt on people in short bursts at a time. Her f/b/dair sweetspots are all better, and nair is much more reliable for chaining all the hits together. Phantom can be a decent tool if used effectively, Nayru's is good for punishing someone for missing something close to you, then sends them packing in a sort of quick GTFO move. Her smashes are all solid kill moves that come out quickly and do good damage. And yes, Farore's Wind has seen some very major improvements that are delightful. It's a bit tricky, but it can even pull off a pretty much guaranteed kill if you combo it into itself past ~80% or so on most characters! It punishes projectiles well, makes people play quite cautiously around it, and is now just wonderful for getting back to the stage/ledge. With the improvements she's seen along with the simple fact that this game's physics benefit her, I think she's become a pretty decent fighter in her own right.

But she's still Zelda, and I just cannot see her being called "great" and for real, she's sweetspot city.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zelda is a solidly mid tier character comparable to Bowser. Has a sound and solid gameplan that has feasible win conditions, but is vulnerable to being countered by specific things. Zelda in specific has limited OOS options making high mobility characters uphill matchups for her.

Outside of high mobility characters who can prevent her from playing conventional footsies, Zelda honestly isn't vulnerable to most lame things. She has a reflector, and she's difficult to trap in a game where 90% of setups revolve around landing and edge traps, which Zelda has some of the best tools in the game to avoid (seriously. Good aerial mobility + Teleport? You should be surviving to 150% as Zelda most stocks if you're playing right because virtually nobody can cheese you if you know what you're doing). To round things out, the raw KO potential and range of her Up-B makes Zelda a very scary character to land against when she has great options for scoring KOs off land traps.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

You already know how I feel about 'Zard. ****ING FLARE BLITZ!

Real talk, 'Zard is good. I have a hard time believing that he isn't at the top of this middling tier-pile that's concocted by the community. He's heavy, he's mobile, he's got pretty decent normals, and a lethal punish game.

Smooth Criminal

Can't short hop any of his aerials except for down B. That hurts him quite a bit IMO. Especially when his grounded normals aren't too great and his throw range was brought down significantly (still decent range comparable to most Smash 4 characters tho).

 

[New_Dumal]

Impressions of Pit anyone? I feel like he might end up where he was in Brawl but slightly higher

I feel like Pit will be in somewhere like "the worst of the high tier" or " the best of mid tier"...
He is pretty solid, but suffers from some MU's and has kill power problems, again.
But is a very good character in general, and as in Brawl, his overall options/tools are a bless.
I got serious problems to fight Rosalina with Pit ...

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Can't short hop any of his aerials except for down B. That hurts him quite a bit IMO. Especially when his grounded normals aren't too great and his throw range was brought down significantly (still decent range comparable to most Smash 4 characters tho).

His kit is at least good enough for him to play a decent neutral game, which is better than the likes of quite a few characters that aren't Rosa and Co. Being able to punish hard is a really good attribute in this game too, imo.

His grab range is better than ****ing D3's. *grumbles.*

Smooth Criminal

 

[SamuraiPanda]

His kit is at least good enough for him to play a decent neutral game, which is better than the likes of quite a few characters that aren't Rosa and Co. Being able to punish hard is a really good attribute in this game too, imo.

His grab range is better than ****ing D3's. *grumbles.*

Smooth Criminal

And his throw follow up options pale in comparison :X

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Who? D3's? Or 'Zard's? D3 gets great rewards off of his grabs.

...at low percents. Or when the opponent doesn't DI/vector properly.

...

Sigh. @ SamuraiPanda , y u do dis.

Smooth Criminal

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Can't short hop any of his aerials except for down B. That hurts him quite a bit IMO. Especially when his grounded normals aren't too great and his throw range was brought down significantly (still decent range comparable to most Smash 4 characters tho).

You can rising short hop zards Nair and fair.

 

[Lord Exor]

Any opinions on Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings?

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Any opinions on Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings?

They piss me right the **** off but besides that no.

 

[Cherubas]

Unless there's some amazing as-of-yet-undiscovered techniques I don't see Bj placing too high on a tier list when one is finally officially agreed upon. He's got tools, sure, but most of his moves are very punishable and easy to see coming, and his aerials just outright lose to some characters. Not to mention the few actual combos (I'm just talking about the guaranteed ones here) he has start with something really obvious and easy to block/shieldgrab like his kart or his drill. A lot of his moves are pretty strong, his f-tilt is really quick and effective, his cannonball can be useful for edgeguarding, his recovery (using his second jump, the free jump from the kart, and abandon ship) is pretty useful for gimping characters with weaker recoveries, and using his Up B against a really aggressive ZSS is very satisfying, but all players being equal I don't think Bj would win any tournaments.

I'm still maining him because I love the character more than any other Nintendo character and I want to be able to play him to his absolute fullest, but being totally honest I don't think he's the easiest character to pick up and play nor is he the one with the most potential to be unlocked.