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Can Marth become top tier again?

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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I'm not sure who's been starting or spreading "Ice vs Falco is massively favoured for Ice" but I'm really not buying it right now. I would be way more convinced if either

A) Europe had a really beastmode Falco player (PP level ideally; Zhu level minimum) and Ice beat this person regularly.

B) Ice completely obliterated the numerous "decent-but-not-top-level" Falcos that exist in Europe; ideally these Falcos are somewhat respectable in the Marth MU and don't claim unfamiliarity johns vs Marth (which invalidates leffen).

I mean, I understand that he's still beating everyone sans Amsah and Armada, and you don't necessarily have to **** someone in order to be effective. At the end of the day, all that really matters is that you have at least one remaining stock and they have none.

But there's just so many little things that stand out as suboptimal in his playstyle vs Falco. I guess it works out because he's still winning, but I really wish his style seemed more refined even at a surface level. Or his competition was a lot stronger. Or something. Maybe he's just one of those people you have to play to understand why they're good and you can't really tell from a video?

I dunno. It's just hard to take in the notion that he's on some higher level vs Falco but then watch him get 3-stocked by Aldwyn. Not to discredit Aldwyn, of course, but I doubt he's a Dr. Peepee or even Zhu level Falco.
 

Roneblaster

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We dont take kindly to ur type around here.

That episode cracks me the **** up every time it comes on.

No but really, ice got 3 stocked by aldwyn?

:phone:
 

Roneblaster

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The space pope IS a reptile.

I cant watch it yet though cuz im on my phone and the youtube phone app is 100% TRASHHHHHHHHH.

:phone:
 

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
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Jan 2, 2005
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Just last No Johns I beat competent sheiks on both Brinstar and KJ64. Both were game 3s. The current stage list is good for Marth, and it keeps getting better. The less CPs, the better. Marth is also underrated on Stadium and Dreamland imo.
I strongly disagree :/

bo3s are awful in general, but particularly for Marth. He gets CPed hard by a lot of the cast (Jiggs/Peach have the Brinstar/Kongo/Dreamland trifecta, spacies have Stadium/Cruise, Sheik has Kongo/Brinstar, etc) and he has no good CPs to counter with. Its a problem when they are getting free wins on Brinstar and you are taking them to Battlefield, a neutral.

Counterpicks decide 2/3rds of the set in a bo3 format. Marth is bad on counterpicks. The ruleset hurts Marth significantly.

(I totally agree that Marth is underrated on Dreamland though. I'm bad on Dreamland cause I'm terrible against hyper camping play on that stage, but I like Marth on it in a ton of MUs. I'm not a fan of Stadium at all, except vs. Peach and Jiggs. I think FoD might be a super secret good Marth CP that we aren't using enough though; hes very good on that stage)
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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CP stages are stupid. I'd be surprised if there were any tournaments that still had them come 2013...









Marth Players:
 

KirbyKaze

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I'm gonna have to teach these scrubby Sheiks how to fight Marth or something.

And by fight I mean run away until he commits to something you can punish (which, thanks to her legs and slap hitbox, is a lot) and do a gigantic massive combo (and, yes, I do mean a gigantic massive one). Kind of like Falcon, but with needles and less dash dancing.
 

Zinth

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Feb 24, 2006
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If PS didn't transform, I would probably go from hating it to liking it. I like the neutral configuration, but the transformation process really seems to interrupt whatever I'm doing at the time, not to mention the transformed stages themselves, which more often than not seem to turn into horrible camp fests, except for the water stage, which feels awkward to play on to me so I don't care much for it, either. However, it is awesome to force a tech on that janky ledge on the rock transformation that can't be rolled away from, getting a guaranteed forward smash, and Marth does seem to be pretty good at camping behind that cliff (though I hate the ceasefire that is often forced by those stalemate situations in the transformations).

I also really don't like Dreamland 64. I feel as though it gives my opponents safer recovery options because I can't easily hit with kill moves when they're on the platforms; he can't hit with a tipped forward smash, and while up tilt can hit, the high ceiling on that stage reduces its killing power. His aerials also really don't have the power to kill from those platforms until like 200% or something. Moreover, when Marth recovers onto one of the side platforms, he seems to be even more vulnerable to the aerial kill moves of Sheik, Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Peach, Falcon, Ganondorf, etc. I also feel that Sheik has a really great matchup against Marth there because she seems to be able to use the platforms to camp really well. However, when I think about it, Dreamland does seem like a pretty decent counterpick against Fox and Falco, since it takes longer for Fox to kill off of the top, the size and configuration of the stage seems like it would give Marth some good space for maneuvering around Falco's lasers, Falco's recovery is really gimp there, and the space in the middle of the stage is large enough for a bit of decent chaingrabbing (or at least up-throwing into f-smash if Marth gets a grab there at the right percent). At the same time, however, Fox is so much more maneuverable than Marth and that stage is spread out enough that I feel that Fox would be able to camp Marth and ultimately force a bait and punish, especially since Marth has to commit more than he usually does to throw attacks onto the platforms there.

I also don't feel that Brinstar and DK64 are very good for Marth, either. On Brinstar, not only do I feel that the uneven terrain is more of a hindrance to Marth than to some of his rivals, but the lava will often interrupt whatever I am doing (and, as Marth's offenses can tend to be more elaborate than those of Sheik, this isn't such an uncommon occurrence) and force me to the platforms. If Marth and Sheik are on separate platforms, it doesn't seem safe for either of them to approach to other, but Sheik can at least safely charge and fire needles without fear of punishment. When the lava starts to fall again, I feel that Marth is generally disadvantaged in the return to combat: if Marth took the middle platform and Sheik took a side platform, then I feel that, because Marth doesn't fall very quickly and Sheik can cover horizontal distance pretty quickly, that Sheik can either put Marth in such a situation than he can only really either engage in air-to-ground combat, which isn't generally a good idea, or flee to the ledge, which is kind of a precarious place to be (for this situation, though, I don't feel as though I had really explored the possibility of Marth engaging on an offensive against Sheik when she is on the edge platform and potentially vulernable, so I will have to think about that more -- it doesn't seem too feasible to me right now, though); if Marth took a side platform and Sheik took the middle platform, then Marth will already be in a vulnerable position when the lava subsides. I also feel that, generally, it is worse for Marth to get hit by the lava than it is for Sheik, especially when they both get hit at the same time, since Sheik can easily pick Marth off with one of her aerials, which is something that Marth himself cannot so easily do to Sheik. I feel that this stage might be good for Marth against Fox and Falco (and probably some others, like Falcon), though. Of course, I haven't really spent a whole lot of time on this stage, so this is all just a combination of my limited experience and my thoughts.

As for DK64, I don't like the uneven terrain, the ledges seem to force Marth to be more precise with his recovery, Marth doesn't seem to be able to do much with the revolving platforms (and it seems as though they could also easily break an upthrow chain at low percents, and the fact that they're moving doesn't help a precision-based character like Marth, either), and characters who land on the upper side platforms really seem pretty safe from Marth. It doesn't seem like Marth could benefit from the barrel as much as characters who are better-equipped for travelling horizontally through the air, either, and he seems to have a harder time punishing characters who recover with it than characters who have kill moves that require less precision. However, as with Brinstar, I think that this stage might advantage Marth against Fox and Falco, and perhaps some other characters (Falcon, Ganon?), but I really don't think that isn't a very good stage against Sheik (not to mention Peach and Jigglypuff). Again, though, I haven't exactly put in a lot of time on this stage or read much about it, so I'm open to correction.

Of course, if I have said anything that anyone (or even just the mechanics of the game) disagrees with, please share your ideas/knowledge with me (and the rest of the community, at that).
 

Archangel

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im lovin dreamland versus peach. so much space to run around. :awesome: who cares if she dies at 230% i can run in circles chasing my tail forever.
Same feeling I have now vs Peach and Puff. I don't care about killing them so much as I do about getting ahead in %. Besides I don't think a Marth will ever beat a top lvl peach(armada's peach) Unless they are super patient and space amazingly from the outside.
 

Metal Reeper

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I love DL64. Everyone say's its terrible vs Marth. I don't see it at all. I think he goes even with their against Falco. Fox wins a bit more....Peach is good there. Falcon its 50/50
 

JBM falcon08

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Marth loses to sheik/fox/falco/falcon/maybe peach on dl64. Camping platforms/shooting lasers/ running away to platforms **** him. Marth is just too slow with covering the options.

The thing about dreamland is its not really a battle of stage control for fox/falco its more of a bait with lasers to punish marth's sword (as KK said). Spacies don't have to have stage control because Marth doesn't deliver the proper pressure to keep the spacies from camping. Marth loses in these situations because he's forced to eventually approach, and approaching isnt safe when you dont have the advantage.



Jman plays this style in most matches i watch of him.
 

Winston

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The thing about dreamland is its not really a battle of stage control for fox/falco its more of a bait with lasers to punish marth's sword (as KK said). Spacies don't have to have stage control because Marth doesn't deliver the proper pressure to keep the spacies from camping. Marth loses in these situations because he's forced to eventually approach, and approaching isnt safe when you dont have the advantage.
Huh? Why does this magically work on Dreamland? just because the platforms are slightly higher? That doesn't really stop Marth from controlling the space above and in front of him in neutral when you willingly corner yourself in exchange for very marginal damage gains.

In fox's case lasers are best used for incidental damage, or to counteract Marth being excessively campy. Being excessively campy yourself with them isn't particularly good. The stage is definitely good for Fox in the matchup, but its not a big advantage, and it's not because of lasers. I'd argue its the ability to use mobility camping more in tactical situations, rather than making laser camping your strategy. Fox can take advantage of it more when he's at least partially on the offense. Marth also has a less threatening punish game there, but it's still more than good enough for him to hold his own.

The example you cited of jman is more... jman just being an exceptionally good player with the style, I'd argue. And fundamentally he still has to win the RPS situations in order to win.

Vs. Falco, considering that Marth is the one that needs mobility to counteract Falco's control, the stage is perfectly fine for him. Whose favored on that stage in that matchup is probably more dependent on player styles.
 

JBM falcon08

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Winston

DL64 is huge and Marth's stage presence isn't that great on it(he doesn't cover very many options well).

Also I will never approach a fox unless he lasers. If a fox is stubborn enough to do mobile camping i will do the same or camp the ledge. You play like a F@g I play like a *****.
 

Winston

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That's the vaguest thing I've ever heard >_>

He doesn't cover very many options well?

And yeah its fine to say you'll never approach fox unless he lasers, but at the same time he shouldn't pure laser camp unless you hardcore camp, so most people just skip that business and just get to the fighting.
 

Roneblaster

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Crush the stat-man.

I got what jbm meant winston. Compared to most other stages, marth can cover significantly less options in any given situation.

:phone:
 

Archangel

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So, you're saying that you think that Peach ultimately has the advantage in the matchup against Marth?
not what I meant. In terms of a head an aggressive thoughtless fight you'll lose if you try it against top level peach. read the whole thing ;).


Peach isn't that bad I just give a few things up when fighting her on some stages. the priority of some of her attack and the speed is just...silly. Gotta be careful on certain stages.

Main ones I'm worried about FD and DL64.

I can play it but i don't' like too DL64 she never dies and FD....turnip gayness....
 

Zinth

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not what I meant. In terms of a head an aggressive thoughtless fight you'll lose if you try it against top level peach. read the whole thing ;).
Word, my bad. I did read the whole thing, but I interpreted it differently than you meant because you capitalized "unless" which made me think that it wasn't part of the first sentence and thus was an exception to the idea in (what I thought was) the first sentence. I'm not saying that it's your mistake, though; I'm a computer science person and so my interpretations of symbolic language strongly conform to formal paradigms (which really isn't applicable to internet forums, where language isn't ever formally consistent). And I mean, the fact that you presented a condition in which Marth can win logically contradicted my interpretation of what you were saying, but my adherence to form ultimately led me astray. Anyway, I do agree that patience and tight spacing (both of attacks and position) are essential to winning the matchup.

I don't think that the fact that Marth has lots of space to move around on Dreamland really helps him out much, mainly, I think, because of the fact that he lacks projectiles and so the actually amount of the stage that he can offensively control is rather limited. For instance, if Marth tried to camp Fox, Falco, or Sheik on that stage, they could easily outcamp him because they have projectiles and are more mobile, so if neither played approached for the entire game Fox/Falco/Sheik would most likely win at time-out because they would likely have dealt safe damage with their projectiles while avoiding all (or adequately enough of) Marth's attacks. Of course, the ultimately consequences I have just speculated about are very theoretical and do not consider human error, but I think that Fox/Falco/Sheik can make better use of the breath of the stage than Marth can. Basically, it would seem that I agree with JBM.

Marth vs. Peach on DL64 is a bit more interesting to think about, though. Obviously, Peach should outlive Marth by a significant margin on that stage, but she isn't able to cover space and maneuver around platforms as well as Marth can and, while she does have a projectile, the on-stage range it covers is rather limited (as far as top/high tier projectiles go). Moreover, I would say that Peach is significantly more disadvantaged by being on the platforms above Marth than Marth is disadvantaged by being on the platforms above Peach. However, it is also worth noting that Marth's killing options take a blow on that stage, while Peach's killing options remain pretty intact, and maybe I'm underestimating Peach's ability to deal with Marth's camping game on that stage. I think that there are other stages that are better for Marth in that matchup, but I also think that Marth has some things going for him on that stage.
 

KirbyKaze

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DL64 is balls because Marth can't cover as much on the lower platforms with U-tilt and he can't reach the top platform with a short hop like he can on FOD and YS.

So if space animals retreat there, he doesn't do damage as effectively as normal.

That's all that's really wrong with it, though. Otherwise it's a fine level.
 

Winston

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But he doesn't need to cover the lower platforms with Utilt; sh uair does just fine. Afaik it's just as fast and it's approximately the same lag. It makes his punishment worse by a bit but that's manageable and partially compensated for by the middle area letting him CG a bit.

Battlefield suffers the same issue with the top platform being too high to cover with a SH but it's regarded as a fine stage for Marth.

Ofc it's a good stage for Fox in the mu but I think the advantage isn't big. And vs. Falco, the extra space serves him well, so that makes up for the bit he loses in coverage.

I don't really know anything about Marth/Sheik so not touching on that.

I just interpreted "he doesn't cover options as well" to imply that it's drastically different for him there somehow as opposed to Battlefield; that's what im arguing against. It doesn't make pure camping from spacies suddenly a dominant strategy just because the stage is a bit bigger
 

KirbyKaze

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Uair is fake-CCable for a significantly larger range than tipped up tilt. My point was that in certain situations his punishment is slightly worse on that level because of the platform height. But beyond that, it's still a good level for him. You brought up a good point with middle ground being good for CGs.

Battlefield is different because you can do gay up tilts that cover a bunch of options and tip smashes through the platforms and it's a smaller stage so repositioning is harder. Mostly because the platforms are a lot closer together.

Camping space animals are gay on Dreamland but it's not really broken or OP or anything. Just annoying.
 

Winston

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Hmm, isn't there a range though where you can fake-CC the tipper uair, but if you do it late and fastfall and utilt immediately after then the utilt hits before they get out? (not sure, asking)

Yeah I agree with all that other stuff though.
 

Niko45

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Marth vs Sheik isn't noticeably any worse on DL64 imo because her platform stuff is much ****tier there than it is on other stages. Her movement and approaches in general are more telegraphed so you can swat and poke her pretty well.

I think she also loses some of her **** combos like some of her up air KOing and up smash KOing ones which is cool.

On the other hand, she can actually just recover straight to a platform and not have to worry about being tippered or anything too devastating so that is a bit of a pain.
 

Teczer0

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Marth vs Sheik isn't noticeably any worse on DL64 imo because her platform stuff is much ****tier there than it is on other stages. Her movement and approaches in general are more telegraphed so you can swat and poke her pretty well.

I think she also loses some of her **** combos like some of her up air KOing and up smash KOing ones which is cool.

On the other hand, she can actually just recover straight to a platform and not have to worry about being tippered or anything too devastating so that is a bit of a pain.
I actually think DL64 is one of her great stages. She still maintains a great poke game under platforms, and for the most part her platform game remains unchanged.

Her main kills on this stage are edgeguarding KOs so for me, the size of the stage rarely affects me. In the sheik vs marth MU I feel like she gains more than Marth *shrugs*

What are your reasons for saying DL64 isn't that bad for marth? I'm actually curious because I would almost always pick sheik on this stage.

Also, for this weekend Alex Strife I think is holding some random party or something is that easier for you to go to? I'll prolly stay there or w/e so we can literally play all day =3. If not lemme know or w/e
 

OverLord

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I would be way more convinced if either

A) Europe had a really beastmode Falco player (PP level ideally; Zhu level minimum) and Ice beat this person regularly.

B) Ice completely obliterated the numerous "decent-but-not-top-level" Falcos that exist in Europe; ideally these Falcos are somewhat respectable in the Marth MU and don't claim unfamiliarity johns vs Marth (which invalidates leffen).

Maybe he's just one of those people you have to play to understand why they're good and you can't really tell from a video?

I dunno. It's just hard to take in the notion that he's on some higher level vs Falco but then watch him get 3-stocked by Aldwyn. Not to discredit Aldwyn, of course, but I doubt he's a Dr. Peepee or even Zhu level Falco.
A) We ain't got a DrPP level Falco, that's sure. :(

But I'd say:

B) Ice actually ***** all of the Falcos in Europe :O. You, rightfully, are saying "but he got 3-stocked by Aldwyn". That's true, but I can tell you two things I know for sure: Ice plays mostly on punishing and reaction, so he needs a bit of time to figure out how to **** someone (especially if he's "goofing around", he likes to do fun and cool stuff while playing), after few matches he usually gets a solid advantage; second, Aldwyn is probably one of the best Falcos against Marth world-wide. He knows perfectly how to deal against Marth in the current metagame, so I don't think it's something to be ashamed to get 3stocked by him in that match-up once in a set.

I know it seems I'm ****-riding Ice way too much, but the way he plays really impressed me, more than every player ever.
 

Riddlebox

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KK posting

Since your reply is based off traits that aren't really communicable through videos, I'm not going to bother with a real response. There's no real point to doing so.

I'm going to, instead, restate that I really wish Ice's style looked more effective at least a superficial level. I am also going to add that, upon figuring Aldwyn out, I would have expected a lot more viciousness and **** from a Marth that's supposed to be eons ahead of every other Marth in this MU. Like, a lot more. It really looked like Aldwyn started doing really stupid things out of desperation (ledgehop Dair like a million times?) and tried to force KOs he shouldn't have gone for, since he seems capable of setting kills effectively enough safely (his ability to setup F-smashes is actually really good).

On a side note, I'm not sure why so many Falcos seem awful around the edge despite his invincible ledgedash, ability to scare people into doing stupid crap like blocking because of LHDL, and other things but I guess when your character can get by certain situations off crutch tactics you never really need to develop strong fundamentals. So then when they can counter the crutch tactic, life sucks.

But yeah, this looks like too much of a real reply so I'm gonna defer to: Taj is better vs Falco than Ice, Ice would get rocked by Mango and Zhu, all Ice does on FD is wait > powershield > grab on approaches and Aldwyn never adjusts to it, and Taj *****. Ice, if you ever read this, know that I mean no disrespect to you. You are probably very good. I wish your fanboys weren't so vocal with (what seems like) nothing to base it off.
 

JBM falcon08

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I've watched videos of Ice recently. In his gameplay he seems sharper in the situations he wins and he's being more creative with his mixups. I feel he is lacking in others i thought he had an amazing way of using.

I feel that he has gotten a tad too aggro with Marth. His DDing used to be amazing and now he's not so much using it. I like that he goes for reads but it almost seems obvious when he falls for the dd bait for him to throw fair and miss. I saw it way too much with falco and I never thought I'd see Ice be opened up like that.

I like watching Ice more than other Marth mains thats for sure, but i feel i've seen him play better in the falco matchup.
 

KirbyKaze

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Ok man, lol, whateva, you'll see if you ever get to play him, lol.
He's going to Sheik ditto me or go Fox if we play. How the hell does that prove anything about Ice in relation to the Marth vs Falco metagame?

If anything, I'm gonna watch him play PP, get rocked, and then say "Wow, Taj really is better at the MU". From there, Eurofanboys are gonna get defensive and say that Ice was having an off day and it's unfair to judge Taj vs "sickly-PP" to Ice vs "healthy-PP". At which point I'm gonna laugh hysterically because if he's actually EONS ahead of EVERYONE in this MU, then it shouldn't matter.

:awesome:
 
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