Can Marth become top tier again?

[Divinokage]

Well theory crafters can talk out of their *** all they want, it's complete bull**** compared to experience. <3

 

[Max?]

Despite my interactions with Mow in the past, I actually agree with some things he says. I might not like his demeanor or egotistical attitude, but this is the internet so who cares? The best part about his posts are other peoples reactions to them.

 

[Divinokage]

No johns man, 2011.. son.

 

[crush]

why did he say "my famous 2v1v1 scenario"?

 

[Max?]

Kage, I agree, dude is out of date and shouldn't be talking **** (especially in the way he handles himself on the boards), but his "theory" is right in certain regards.

From my experience in this game, theory rarely pans out on paper.

 

[Palpi]

I honestly don't read any of his posts. I am just ****ing crazy.

 

[crush]

i usually just read the first sentence or two and then get bored.

 

[Strong Badam]

you're all full of ****, ICG theory is the future of Melee

 

[Max?]

ICG truly was a revolutionary.

Too bad he was obsessed with masturbating with blood.

 

[crush]

whos icg?

 

[Divinokage]

Kage, I agree, dude is out of date and shouldn't be talking **** (especially in the way he handles himself on the boards), but his "theory" is right in certain regards.

From my experience in this game, theory rarely pans out on paper.

Maybe some of it, and yes I agreed with him at some points in RL.. but.. still.. lol. The things that happen in teams is always moving and changing at an extremely fast pace, and you gotta recognize what's going on really quickly and apply your tactics. 1 second of losing your attention can get you both killed easily.

 

[Druggedfox]

Theory only doesn't pan out on paper if either: 1)one doesn't apply the theory correctly, or 2) there is something inherently incorrect with the theory.

If neither of those two are the case, then it makes 0 sense to say that theory doesn't pan out on paper. Also, a 2v1 doesn't necessarily imply that both opponents are sitting right next to m2k easily within range for both of them to get faired; you can be applying the pressure of a 2v1 from easily 1/3 of FD away. To say "I just fair them and m2k shields" is like...a hilarious misunderstanding of the strategy.

The never take friendlies seriously mentality is also ridiculous. If mango and PP sit down, and they sit down to compete with each other because it's rare that they get to play someone else on their level... I would imagine that 9 times out of 10 they'll both be playing seriously. Also, the majority of good players will get annoyed to some extent or another if they're getting beat by a noticeable margin by a player they believe is worse; at that point they usually are like "okay enough playing around". Sure players aren't always trying seriously, but usually the tone of the matches is pretty clear to both players as they're being played. There's a difference between me playing yayuhz and us laughing our ***** off while playing and doing ******** ****, and two players sitting down getting salty at each other at every turn cuz they want to kick the other dudes ***.

Not all friendlies are "friendly".

 

[Niko45]

Sheik is easily one of the best characters in teams, tho admittedly she is not Fox or Puff level of good. She's a great zoning character with very swift low risk edgeguarding (I mean, she can bair from the ledge into an immediate regrab for christ's sake. 5-10 seconds? Maybe for a really elaborate low % gimp but in general she's sick from the ledge.)

She does struggle to get into the fray to break up a 2v1, but then again, so do puff and peach.

Easily a top 5 teams character imo.

I agree that friendlies don't mean nothing. Friendlies can play an important psychological effect because if you do well in friendlies against a player that is better than you, they will be more fearful and less confident against you in tournament. Confidence is a big deal.

 

[Divinokage]

It's not a misunderstanding, if M2k is shielding it means he's being pressured by someone inside him because he wouldn't really do it otherwise, which is why I will hit him with the others on him. I have all my tactics in my head though I have a really hard time explaining things in x10000 words because I can't really do that, it's simple in my head and there's no need to over-complicate things either.

Well as for friendlies, you would have first to understand the relationship between the 2 players. I mean if they are already friends but still are playing seriously somewhat.. it doesn't really affect the confidence or wtv outcome the match brings.

 

[Niko45]

Also, there's nothing wrong with theory crafting, as long as you understand that it's just THEORY. It is not the law of the land, so don't talk to people like it is.

 

[t3h Icy]

Theorycrafting is Gengar Tier.

 

[Max?]

Also, there's nothing wrong with theory crafting, as long as you understand that it's just THEORY. It is not the law of the land, so don't talk to people like it is.

I agree.

Idk, I just can't take a lot of the "Theory Crafting" people seriously. I can't count how many times people have said to me "Doc can't grab space animals if their tech skill is on" or something of that nature.... well if you watched me vs. Jman at the last No Johns you might wanna reevaluate that stance.

 

[Druggedfox]

I don't think anyone's denying that sheik is a top 5 teams character, but look at characters like peach, puff, falcon, or ganon. Sheik's edgeguarding on such characters just takes a long time; has anyone ever watched sheik edgeguard ganon or falcon? It usually involves bairing/fairing infinity times until they're just too far to recover. That's a far cry from the speed at which fox can be like "oh falcon's below the stage? *shine*", or falco's ability to just throw a dair out and have them instant die. Even if sheik's edgeguarding doesn't take as long as mow makes it out to take, its still clearly not fast enough for an opponent to be incapable of helping out.

Peach has less trouble getting into the fray than sheik; peach is a very destructive character naturally in teams. Puff? Exactly. Puff is as susceptible to the 2v1 strategy as sheik is. The lack of approaches that both characters have is easily one of their biggest flaws in teams. The lack of approaches makes them relatively easy to wall off from their teammate through simple means such as fox's bair. The argument is simply that when you're relatively equally skilled with fox and sheik, and you have to pick a character to use in teams.... there's very little reason not to choose fox >_>

Lmao "Doc can't grab space animals if their tech skill is on" is a perfect example of awful theory crafting; I can't believe you're legitimately comparing a solid analysis with a statement like that. That statement implies that if you were to play technically perfectly that somehow you're able to never get read by your opponent, among other faulty things. As I said before, theory is *always* accurate if its implemented correctly, and there isn't a flaw with the theory...that's simply by definition, I don't see how you could see it otherwise. If the theory isn't 100% applicable to ACTUAL gameplay, then there's obviously something wrong with the theory.

What do you mean by "just theory". Yes, it is theory. If the theory isn't working out for you, you're doing it wrong, or the theory's wrong. Instead of just objecting to the fact that it's "theorycrafting", why not just point out something incorrect about the theory? If it doesn't apply to real gameplay, then you should easily be able to point out a flaw, right?

 

[Max?]

Fox > Sheik in teams any day of the week.

 

[Divinokage]

Ummm... it depends.. It's not every character that can work well with Fox. The other team that is good against Fox can bring on the pain pretty damn fast if you aren't careful. But Ya I agree Fox overall is better. Like even M2k/Mango's Fox got hammered hard by me and Axe before so.. you know? If you know what to do, it's tough.. because I mean even most Fox teams has a hard time winning too.

 

[crush]

fox>everyone

 

[Niko45]

Fox is the best teams character by a wide margin imo. You can put just about any character with Fox and its a legit team.

 

[Divinokage]

Fox is the best teams character by a wide margin imo. You can put just about any character with Fox and its a legit team.

Marth is terrible though in teams, unfortunately for him.. =/

 

[Niko45]

This is why I hate teams. I may train my fox up to be able to compete eventually.

 

[Max?]

Marth has to play way too passively in teams to be effective and not get *****. That's a big problem.

 

[Strong Badam]

i just bair a lot?

 

[crush]

marth is good, but not good enough. its possible to make him top tier, but it would require lots of time and money and the help of government officials. (hillary clinton, barack obama, **** chainey, sarah palin) you know in the original digimon movie how like the whole world was a computer and someone hacked into it? you would need to hack into the worlds iso file and change every melee disc to give marth zelda's down-B. it would be possible, but it could be stopped by other government officials that dont want the government officials that are hacking into the whole entire world to change the melee discs to change anything because they might replace the audio files for arnold schwarzeneggers voice

say it once, say it again^its not impossible for marth to be top tier.

 

[Divinokage]

In teams it's impossible, Ganon > Marth in teams. They kinda switched spots from the 1v1 and 2v2 tier list if there was one. =P The ability to save a Ganon or Falcon in teams is just beastly, letting either of those have another chance to one shot kill the opponent or combo to death is awesome lol.

 

[Max?]

marth is good, but not good enough. its possible to make him top tier, but it would require lots of time and money and the help of government officials. (hillary clinton, barack obama, **** chainey, sarah palin) you know in the original digimon movie how like the whole world was a computer and someone hacked into it? you would need to hack into the worlds iso file and change every melee disc to give marth zelda's down-B. it would be possible, but it could be stopped by other government officials that dont want the government officials that are hacking into the whole entire world to change the melee discs to change anything because they might replace the audio files for arnold schwarzeneggers voice

say it once, say it again^its not impossible for marth to be top tier.

This kids a ****ing genius.

 

[crush]

In teams it's impossible, Ganon > Marth in teams. They kinda switched spots from the 1v1 and 2v2 tier list if there was one. =P The ability to save a Ganon or Falcon in teams is just beastly, letting either of those have another chance to one shot kill the opponent or combo to death is awesome lol.

Ganons u tilt is also great in teams.

 

[Strong Badam]

marth is good, but not good enough. its possible to make him top tier, but it would require lots of time and money and the help of government officials. (hillary clinton, barack obama, **** chainey, sarah palin) you know in the original digimon movie how like the whole world was a computer and someone hacked into it? you would need to hack into the worlds iso file and change every melee disc to give marth zelda's down-B. it would be possible, but it could be stopped by other government officials that dont want the government officials that are hacking into the whole entire world to change the melee discs to change anything because they might replace the audio files for arnold schwarzeneggers voice

say it once, say it again^its not impossible for marth to be top tier.

lol im ****ing dead right now.

 

[Deleted member]

1. sheik is ****ing great in teams, but she's not fox/puff. i also value peach really high in teams, but i think fox and puff are slightly better. the ability to break up a fight with a CF knee or ganon's fist or fox nair or peach dash attack is a great asset to saving your teammate, and one that sheik really lacks.

2. kage i'm not saying you're a bad player. ganon is good in teams and you do well in tournaments. but your posts are, frankly, bad. take the criticism as constructive, I'm not trying to bash you.

it's a general good team strategy to separate your opponents. this lets you "camp" the one with worse approaches while you can both try to 2 vs 1 the other. So for example, if you're fighting a falco/sheik team for whatever reason, it's a good idea to 2 vs 1 the falco and to keep sheik "outside" of the fight because she'll have a hard time saving falco. this is what happened when m2k and dr pp teamed. Kevin told me on aim that Jason didn't help him enough and Jason told me that he carried Kevin hard. And they're both right even though those are conflicting ideas. this is my 2 vs 1 vs 1 idea, you make one of the opponents effectively useless and gain a huge advantage over the other one.

you're a good player at a character that gets much better in teams. you could make GREAT use of it if you wanted to. or you could keep bashing me for being old and consistently get 5th instead of 1st or 2nd. it's your wallet.

3.

Marth has to play way too passively in teams to be effective and not get *****. That's a big problem.

Yeah, that and he gets ***** anyway sometimes just for being in the wrong place. Marth is garbage in teams.

 

[crush]

please stop posting mow

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I wonder if a moderator will ever come here to keep this thread nearly on track? Or maybe the O/P should be changed.

edit- forgot necessary SlayerS_Dragon gif

 

[crush]

When threads get off track and I start posting in them they often get 20% cooler.

 

[Veetaak]

When threads get off track and I start posting in them they often get 20% cooler.

Duuuuude. You are posting way too much on the boards (especially since 90% of your posts are off topic and 10% are just trolling)

I see you in every thread with troll comments etc

Unless you're getting paid to do this then I suggest you do something productive aswell

 

[crush]

Duuuuude. You are posting way too much on the boards (especially since 90% of your posts is off topic and 10% is just trolling)

I see you in every thread with troll comments etc

Unless you're getting paid to do this then I suggest you do something productive aswell

like 2% of my posts are off topic, and i am not a troll, unless your definition of troll is "a great poster on SWF who provides valuable insight in every thread he posts in".

 

[Divinokage]

You aren't Mike Haggar, stop trying to be someone you are not.

 

[crush]

You aren't Mike Haggar, stop trying to be someone you are not.

I am not trying to be mike haggar and I am nothing like him. Mike haggar is mean and yells at people about how good Sweden is while I provide valuable posts and outlooks on things that people have never seen before. Some claim that I am "trolling" when in reality they are afraid that my creative ways of looking at life and this game will cause more people to follow in a manner similar to twitter and eventually lead to a new religion developing and overshadowing theirs: Crushtianity.

 

[HondaFoo]

lol Crush is awesome