Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

[SymphonicSage12]

@Sonic
It still has some kind of wind that pushes you away and doesn´t really let you punish it unless you do the ground dodge.

The wind only sends you far if you have momentum. So if you have momentum toward Toon Link, you receive significantly less "knockback" from the wind.

And yes, when Toon Link has more players on him, I'm sure he's due for some surprise at some point. Ah, but when is the question. ^_^

Not to mention that is has 30 frames of endlag...


Learn to read, boy

 

[V-K]

Not to mention that is has 30 frames of endlag...


Learn to read, boy

Yup, I know that you have less knockback from the wind with more momentum.
But it´s still hard to punish. Why does he even have that? Bowser for example doesn´t have some kind of wind that helps him when he misses down b.
Imo that wind is a bit unnecessary.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Yup, I know that you have less knockback from the wind with more momentum.
But it´s still hard to punish. Why does he even have that? Bowser for example doesn´t have some kind of wind that helps him when he misses down b.
Imo that wind is a bit unnecessary.

The reason why he has the wind is both logical and canononical.

It's because he is The Wind(box) Waker. He's using his dair winds to guide the King of Red Lions to battle.

Obv.

 

[iLink]

TL is the windwaker. You wouldn't want bowser waking any winds from his rear... would you?

Also I'm finding MK's tornado to be rather useless as of late. Before I could support the horrible end lag it had because it would usually send them high enough to avoid getting punished but everyone I've been playing recently doesn't seem to have trouble DI'ing out of it and punishing me to the point where the attack isn't even worth using because I always get punished for it even on hit.

Does the initial hitbox have some kind of knockback that sends them up? If so, we might want to consider reducing that since that seems to be the culprit for how they jump out of it so soon.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Saying TL Dair endlag is nonpunishable is like saying Falcon Punch endlag is nonpunishable. Aerials, Dash cancel anything, dash attack, spot dodge on reaction, dash dance, SHFF to any ground move. If you can't punish it, try... I don't know... being better?

NO offense.

 

[Isatis]

CHARACTER BOARDS.

 

[MK26]

CHARACTER BOARDS.

SIZE 7 CAPS COLOURED FONT.

and bio is a mod so he can obv do that

 

[JCaesar]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/jcaesar-brawl

We're streaming B+ the rest of the night.

 

[smashmaniac2008]

Is giantpunes updatifier always up to date.

 

[Alphatron]

Try it and see if Final Smashes work. If they do, then yes it is always up to date. You may want to try downloading it off the homebrew browser though. The one currently posted on smashboards IS indeed out of date.

 

[wowoduend]

Try it and see if Final Smashes work. If they do, then yes it is always up to date. You may want to try downloading it off the homebrew browser though. The one currently posted on smashboards IS indeed out of date.

The final smashes doesn't freeze for me anymore. Now it's 100% safe to play with items now for me

 

[Roxas215]

Umm lucas is a beast! That is all!

 

[Alphatron]

If Lucas is a beast, then what is Peach supposed to be?

Though there are plenty of characters that people need to experience in the tourney environment a bit more.

 

[ZacTASTIC]

Sorry if this is the wrong spot to ask this, but is the "disable custom stages" code in the gct important? I have some customs that I like, so if I take it out will my game freeze ever? I'm assuming there's a reason it's in there...

 

[Roxas215]

If Lucas is a beast, then what is Peach supposed to be?

Though there are plenty of characters that people need to experience in the tourney environment a bit more.

Lol i never said Peach wasn't Great. It just surprised me at how good Lucas is. I should have some vids up soon.

 

[Alphatron]

It's there so that there only be one gct. It's not needed unless you're doing the non homebrew method.

 

[Gardevior]

Is there a changelist for this set?

 

[CountKaiser]

Is there a changelist for this set?

No, but one is being worked on.

 

[Bandit]

We should just have as the title:

Brawl+ Official Codeset 6.0 Near-Gold Discussion - No Change List Available

This will stop people from asking at least twice a day.

(This was not aimed at any one post)

 

[kirox777]

The final smashes doesn't freeze for me anymore. Now it's 100% safe to play with items now for me

did u try captain falcon? he is the only one that froze me.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I was talking to a few of my buddies around my area and they all seem to agree that the shield in it's entirety is rather sloppy.

For two reasons:

The powershielding window, which I am well aware was lowered (to 1 frame?), still goes off on random occasions during shield pressuring. I am convinced that one can still buffer a power shield in advance, and more often than not (at least for my friends and I) it's usually on accident. There's not enough time to react and take advantage of it, however, what usually happens is that, just as accidentally, they end up shield grabbing or shifting the offense to the other player. I feel that it's not necessarily a huge issue, but it's a nuance that will help tighten up the game.

Shield stabbing is too easy. I don't quite understand it myself, but there have been multiple occassions where I've been shield stabbed by Bowser's outer most Fsmash hitbox, I was shielding completely and was far away from him. I guess the easiest solution would be to learn how to tilt your shield more, but I think that this is another nuance that should at least be looked at to help Brawl+ purge more of the (perceived) randomness and attain the tight gameplay that would help this game out immensely.

 

[JCaesar]

I just wish we could have light shielding...

 

[Alphatron]

Agreed with Jiang on shield stabbing being too easy. Or rather, even a full shield is made ineffective against certain moves. Like Peach dsmash for example.

 

[wowoduend]

did u try captain falcon? he is the only one that froze me.

tried him. He doesn't freeze for me.

 

[Isatis]

CHARACTER BOARDS.

Moved the Sonic discussion here.

 

[BadGuy]

I was talking to a few of my buddies around my area and they all seem to agree that the shield in it's entirety is rather sloppy.

For two reasons:

The powershielding window, which I am well aware was lowered (to 1 frame?), still goes off on random occasions during shield pressuring. I am convinced that one can still buffer a power shield in advance, and more often than not (at least for my friends and I) it's usually on accident. There's not enough time to react and take advantage of it, however, what usually happens is that, just as accidentally, they end up shield grabbing or shifting the offense to the other player. I feel that it's not necessarily a huge issue, but it's a nuance that will help tighten up the game.

Shield stabbing is too easy. I don't quite understand it myself, but there have been multiple occassions where I've been shield stabbed by Bowser's outer most Fsmash hitbox, I was shielding completely and was far away from him. I guess the easiest solution would be to learn how to tilt your shield more, but I think that this is another nuance that should at least be looked at to help Brawl+ purge more of the (perceived) randomness and attain the tight gameplay that would help this game out immensely.

Being a Bowser main I'm usually inclined to disagree with you simply because this might effect future shield stabbing in benefit to me, but I agree with Jiang. The shield system is a bit too convenient and simple atm. So far the combat and offense game has been far more advanced and less "cut corners" gameplay, so why don't we take time to iron out the defense aspect as well? Perfect shielding almost never happens on purpose, and is far too easy to perform, i would like to make perfect shielding more difficult to perform and have reflecting perfect shields back as well. Reward good reflexes and timing, punish slow and sloppy controls.

 

[Dark Sonic]

While I don't necessarily support powershield reflecting, I do agree that powershielding is currently sloppy. Even with the current powershielding window (1 frame!), people are getting accidental powershields. Though I know it would take a new code so that powershielding can only happen within a number of frames of THE BUTTON BEING PRESSED, rather than a timing window from when the shield COMES OUT. This should be a fairly simple code though (I hope there are coders willing to help us out with this. Or maybe PSA might be able to handle this by removing powershielding entirely in it's normal form, and then putting it back in the function described above).

Shield stabbing is also kind of aggravating at the moment, because it's as if moves don't even have to be spaced to get the shield stab. In melee getting shield stabs required you to have a hitbox hit their exposed hurtbox WITHOUT ALSO HITTING THE SHIELD. It seems almost as if in brawl you get shieldstabbed if your hurtbox is exposed AT ALL, and an attack just happens to pass through that area during it's swing. Perhaps a larger initial shield size (coupled with faster deterioration to compensate, leaving the same total shield duratino) would mitigate this. It should really be looked into though

 

[XSilvenX]

Shield stabs happen a lot but only if you're being really defensive and campy. You deserve it ^_^. Means your shield is at around 60% or less and you blocked one too many hits. But hey that's just in my experience, I play super aggressive so I never block for more than one or two hits anyway..it's safe to say, the ease of shield stabbing is sort of good since it negates the ridiculously easy defensive gameplay tactics that vBrawl is known for. Staying in shield is not exactly "safe" all the time. I don't know about you guys but I like it. It's never gotten to the point where I'm being pressured THAT much where I literally have to keep my shield up. There's way too many options in Smash for that. Obviously I RARELY get shield stabbed. It happens to my opponents though, a lot..but maybe that's just my playstyle. And not only with Ike, with Link and Marth also so it doesn't seem confined to one character just being too good at shield stabbing. It's definitely a playstyle issue imo if you're getting shield stabbed a lot. Also you guys forgot that you can tilt your shield to cover where you suspect to get stabbed right? That's how people killed MKs in Brawl remember? Block and tilt up so the tornado doesn't shield stab you. Another skill dependant game mechanic...go figure :-\


Agreed with the powershield window though, although I can't really see how you guys would pull it off so that it's actually confined to one frame and not buffer-able ( as it seems now). To be honest though from what I see when it comes to random powershielding it was because the person was simply holding the shield and coincidentally the first frame the shield was up is the first frame the attack touched which resulted in a no effort powershield. No timing effort on part of the defender, just stupid luck. If you can make it so that you have to "PRESS" the shield button within the frame instead of having to be able to have it held from previous frames then that would pretty much solve the problem. Am I being clear enough? It's kinda tough to explain but I think you guys know what I mean.

 

[Daakun]

I don't see the problem with how powershielding is right now.
One frame is one frame no matter where you put it.

 

[sffadsad]

I don't see the problem with how powershielding is right now.
One frame is one frame no matter where you put it.

I know it's frowned upon to make a Melee comparison, but if you powershield in Melee it's completely different from powershielding in vBrawl and Brawl+. The way it's set up in both Brawl games is more of a timer rather than actually being a one frame event.

To make a more direct comparison to Melee, if you remember the way to tech in vBrawl and compare it to the way it is in Brawl+ the difference is pretty noticeable.

 

[Daakun]

I don't notice any difference in teching aside from a shorter window since it's frame based instead of distance; always just teched as I hit the ground and it didn't affect me much.
If you mean the shield works in a distance sorta manner too, **** yeah that needs changed.

 

[Alex 615]

I don't see the problem with how powershielding is right now.
One frame is one frame no matter where you put it.

Not exactly

In Melee, you would only powershield if you pressed shield on the frame that the attack was in your shield bubble.

In Brawl+, don't have to press shield frame 1, e.g., you're stunned on the ground and holding shield, your opponent comes in to attack, but you come out of stun on the frame that your opponent's attack should connect, and your shield automatically comes up, giving a "free" powershield.

 

[Daakun]

Oh, so the startup animation itself has the powershield right now?
So long as the timing is still normal for unbuffered shielding, it's all good. xd

 

[goodoldganon]

Accidental powershields and other similar fighting game mechanics are just a sad part of the genre. I find myself getting more powershields then say I got in Melee but I wouldn't call it a significant margin. You can't tell me you haven't laughed at an accidental power shield in Melee when it reflected a Samus charge shot and kills her. Ya that's not a reason to keep the system and if it is possible to fix that's awesome but I'd hardly consider it a problem. It's just a function of the genre.

On shield stabbing I both agree and disagree. I agree with basically all of Silven's point which is that the only time I get lots of shield stabs is on overly defensive players. Many of my shield stabs are around 70-60% shield strength. But I do agree that there are some moves that just seem to be nearly unshieldable and the sword users (sans Tink) seem to be stupid good shield stabbers. We have hex codes (and probably PSA ones now too) to edit shield values so it's something I guess the WBR and B+ designers could look at.

I've always wanted to test a setup where the shield takes less damage but doesn't regenerate nearly as fast. It's probably beyond the scope of a light change though. Either way, for the most part shield stabbing punishes overly shield campy players and that's fine. But, there are some moves (Peach's D-smash and Bowser's F-smash) that stab way too well and some characters are really good at it.

 

[Daakun]

The ones that stab good are the ones that swing in with their hitboxes instead of just popping up somewhere.
And some like Peach's dsmash that are just so close to the bottom you can't help but stab.

 

[JCaesar]

I'd be pretty disappointed if shield-stabbing was weakened. It's one of the few really nice anti-camping mechanics in the game. If you're good enough at shield-tilting you should never be getting shield-stabbed anyway.

 

[THO]

I agree with JCaesar. Shield tilting is a mechanic of the game that actually adds some depth and already exists.

Despite that, shield stabbing is an excellent strategy. At high level play it usually takes some form of trickery to get off a hit. Things like shield pokes, sacrificial hits and invincibility frames have a much bigger influence and are usually much trickier to pull off.

Shield poking can get rather annoying, but good tilt practice can eliminate most of the problems.

 

[Doval]

Accidental powershields and other similar fighting game mechanics are just a sad part of the genre. I find myself getting more powershields then say I got in Melee but I wouldn't call it a significant margin. You can't tell me you haven't laughed at an accidental power shield in Melee when it reflected a Samus charge shot and kills her. Ya that's not a reason to keep the system and if it is possible to fix that's awesome but I'd hardly consider it a problem. It's just a function of the genre.

Not quite. In Melee you had to time the powershield; any powershield that was "accidental" in Melee was only accidental in the sense that you simply wanted to protect yourself and happened to react right in the nick of time. You can get an accidental powershield in Brawl and Brawl+ without timing it because the window for powershielding in Brawl starts when the shield comes up, not when you hit the shield button.

Consider this scenario: you whiffed a smash attack. Your opponent was slow to react, so he tries to punish, but he didn't manage to hit you before your shield came up. Let's say the events unfolded as such:
Frame 1: You hit L or R while your Smash was still in progress.
Frame 11: Smash attack's IASA frame, shield came up.
Frame 12: Enemy's attack hits your shield.

If this happens in Brawl, you get a powershield - the window of opportunity started on frame 11, the frame your shield came up. If this happens in Melee, no powershield happens - the window of opportunity happened on frame 1, when you hit L or R. The window came and went before your attack ended.

Additionally, in Brawl the attack could just barely graze the outside of your shield and a powershield would happen. In Melee, the attack has to penetrate a certain distance into your shield. (Incidentally this is why reflecting slow projectiles would sometimes fail in Melee - often the projectile wouldn't end up deep enough into your shield on the frame it reached you, negating your powershield even if the timing was right.)

There's also a 3rd problem with Brawl+ powershields that as far as I know hasn't been fixed: powershields aren't being affected by the shield stun code. Powershields are supposed to have the same shield stun was normal shielding. However, if for a given attack the vBrawl shield stun is 4 frames, and in Brawl+ it's 12 frames, a powershield will only get 4 frames of stun when it's supposed to have 12, giving you a huge frame advantage that's not supposed to be there.

If you're good enough at shield-tilting you should never be getting shield-stabbed anyway.

I'm not advocating that we weaken shieldstabbing, but this isn't entirely true. During shield stun, the shield will revert to its neutral position no matter what you do. So if you get hit by a multi-hit attack, you can't tilt your shield for any hit after the first.

Then there's the fact that you can't quickly tilt without getting an accidental dodge unless you have an insane amount of control to tilt the stick in 1-2 frames without overshooting the halfway mark. (Only exception is tilting up if you have Tap Jump Off, since you can smash that without adverse effects.)

The best solution is still to not waste your shield (i.e. not leave it up when not being attacked) and don't let it take that much damage.

 

[Daakun]

Powershields are supposed to have the same shield stun as normal shielding.

I see that as more of an advantage for getting a powershield instead of tossing it up whenever.

 

[Doval]

I see that as more of an advantage for getting a powershield instead of tossing it up whenever.

Powershielding already has advantages. You don't take shield damage, you don't take knockback, and you can choose any attack (even B moves) out of shield instead of being restricted to Up Smash, Up B and Grab.