Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

[Bandit]

You guys must be smoking some pretty powerful stuff.

Wolf's recovery > Falco's >>>> Fox's

Falco's recovery is good because his side-B is very fast and difficult to intercept, but it's still predictable. Fox's recovery is a much slower and slightly longer version of Falco's. Wolf's recovery is good because he has more options available to him and can easily choose to recover to the edge or the stage at will. It's harder to predict where his side-B will end up, plus it can be canceled which changes the trajectory and speed greatly. His up-B is arguably the best of the spacies, and was recently nerfed because of its insane priority.

That said, even though he doesn't need it, I wouldn't want to see the side-B buff go. I've learned how to use it offensively and it's really satisfying to land it.

Everything here is 100% true except the keeping the knee power in part.

I was against this buff when it first came out. I was pretty vocal about it, and the backroom, at the time, told me I was a moron and buffed Wolf even more.

I'm still highly against this move since it was a completely manufactured buff that he doesn't need. The last thing Wolf needed was another killing option, and it does land constantly in his offensive game. I'm not calling for its removal; I just think it should be a move under evaluation from the WBR.

If you think his recovery is bad, you fail at this character.

:bandit:

PS - DD, don't bother flaming my post. I already ignore everything you say anyway.

 

[kirox777]

This idea, while still not something I can do, isn't that bad. The method we will likely use to fix Diddy-esque recoveries will minimize the rage inducing wtf-I-so-sweetspotted-that-s*** death-bounce while still preventing autosweetspotting.

Letting Diddy cancel his up-b in the same way DDD has 2 problems:
1. The up-b could be canceled onstage, this would be a huge recovery buff, and I'd have to eat my words about preserving balance.
2. This change could not be applied evenly to the other characters suffering from a similar recovery.

about those problems,
1. im no expert at project sa but can you set an IF for if in the air or when not charging the upB you can only press the button at that time?
2. just curious who are the other characters with those similar recovery problems because i can think of lucas but he has a tether also for help

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Wolf's Side B goes back to it's previous angle, any on-stage sweetspot with it could be easily punished with a tech into a grab or fast smash or something.

I don't know about anyone else, but sweetspots that are unsafe on hit seem unacceptable to me.

 

[Bandit]

I am not complaining about the safety of the move offensively; I was saying it shouldn't have the kill power it does. It's basically Knee-lite.

Again, it's not a problem. It should just be kept an eye on while this set flexes. It could prove to be insignificant in the long run.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

In which case, your argument becomes much more reasonable.

I apparently can't read today. Apologies.

 

[goodoldganon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Wolf's Side B goes back to it's previous angle, any on-stage sweetspot with it could be easily punished with a tech into a grab or fast smash or something.

I don't know about anyone else, but sweetspots that are unsafe on hit seem unacceptable to me.

Since I was the one that made or proposed this change a long time ago I figured I 'd stop by and tell you what the thought process was. This is what was happening when Wolf recovered. Even if he hit a person (shield or not) he was getting punished. So I talked to Zodiak about what we wanted to do with Wolf. (He was the only good Wolf at the time) This is around the time we tried crazy things like his shine change. I'll admit it was a change happy time where we were much looser in our criteria on what was needed as a change.

After all the shine changes failed we moved on to fixing his recovery. So I just tried switching Falcon's knee over to see what would happen. It had hilarious overpowered results so Shanus dropped it to 80% and we just kind of went with it. I personally don't think it's much of a problem. The change means that you can't be hit by the move while he is recovering and still punish him. I will admit it is probably a little too powerful (it's kind of **** in my team matches if you play with someone who can set you up.) and I am ok reevaluating the change and just addressing the spike hitbox, which is what caused all this.

When we made the initial change I was told that would be the only change Wolf needed to be good besides making his N-air not awful. Of course later down the road he got other buffs (F-air was a big one) and people kind of just forgot about the side-b. In no way shape or form am I saying the change should stay or it should be removed. It's kind of just...there.

 

[CT Chia]

ROB's uthrow was buffed. It definitely kills Lucario well under 190% now.

He still has dash attack -> usmash and dthrow -> nair which both kill at very reasonable %s. Not to mention nair is not terribly difficult to land even without a setup. He's definitely in the lower half of the cast when it comes to kill power, but that's where he should be considering his other strengths. ROB is perfect.

The Lucario at 190 was in vBrawl I was talking about, giving a comparison to how he was considered a good character back when people didn't know how to DI his uthrow giving him a reliable kill move to now being lower without such a move since now uthrow is pretty bad at killing. I know it was buffed a little in Brawl+, but I feel it could still be better.

The other combos you said are so exactly they aren't reliable one bit. Try and get a dash attack usmash on a reasonably good player, it won't happen. As easy as it seems to be to land nair (which I still abuse on most people), it takes a very long time for the hitbox to get infront of him, which is where it would primarily be used. To quote Fiction: "ROB's Nair is a terrible move, it is so slow that no one should ever get hit by it." That was referring to vBrawl of course, but there are little to no guaranteed combos into it in Brawl+. dthrow to nair requires such precision in following the DI Perfectly to do it as fast as possible, and on a lot of characters the window for it being a true combo regardless of DI at kill percents is insanely small, like a specific 5-10%. I know in 5.0 it was a true combo on MK regardless of DI from somewhere around 89 - 97% or so where it killed, and making sure you get that grab in those exact percents is quite unnerving. I haven't tested it in 6.0 yet really to see if there's been any changes in gravity or something because it was really close as it was in 5.0 and easy for the MK to air dodge or jump out of if the rob didnt time it perfectly, so the smallest change would really F it up.

As for looking at what else ROB is good for, he's god tier at gimps, but guess what - the smarter a player gets, the harder it is - nearing on practically impossible - to get gimps. Some characters get gimped worse than others (those that are required to recover low), but so many characters have things that laugh at it.

ROB's kill moves are quite hard to hit, and there are very few, and probably none on most characters, setups for these kill moves. And in exchange ROB doesn't have insane priority to help him land these moves like other characters have in exchange.

 

[JCaesar]

...I'll give you Wolf's recovery being better than Falco's, but Falco's better than Fox's? Fox's worse than Wolf's? You MUST be crazy. O_o

Falco's with without a doubt the worst of the three. With his Up-B, half the time he doesn't even make it to the platform's ledge. Fox can go to it and past, and it's not slow at all. Plus the fact that it does damage anyways kinda throws that dilemma away. Then there's Wolf. His Up-B. Using it is pretty much asking to die. You're are the bottom of the stage trying to go straight up back to the platform. You use it. Almost half the he'll go past the ledge and do the kick, and then is either open for an attack, to sometimes he just won't latch onto the ledge (though there may be another reason that)

Fox>Wolf>Falco is the way I see it.

But at the same time, Wolf's Up-B does better for attacks and it harder to spike back down than the other two...

Wolf>Fox>Falco

There we go. :3

Sooo not what I was talking about.

Wolf's recovery is the best among the spacies when being actively edgeguarded. Fox's is the best distance-wise, but it's also the easiest to intercept, thus it's the worst. And for all the spacies, up-B is always just a backup option, never the primary recovery method (though Wolf's horizontal up-B to the ledge is pretty **** hard to stop).

Lucas Nair can be SMASH DI'D out of at ANY PERCENT STARTING AT 0%. WOW! And it's supposed to be an approach move!

Lucas Usmash, the only smash usable out of dash without using Dash Cancelling, isn't safe on shields. Isn't. Safe. On. Shields. My opponents frequently live up to 300% until they get into PK Fire death percent because of this horrible attribute.

Lucas Pivot Grab is beat by too many attacks, such as Falco's Neutral B and Marth's Down R. Why would you give characters such insane anti-Lucas Pivot Grab measures? Lucas is already bad enough. The WBR seriously needs to re-look this guy.

I knew you were trollin

The Lucario at 190 was in vBrawl I was talking about, giving a comparison to how he was considered a good character back when people didn't know how to DI his uthrow giving him a reliable kill move to now being lower without such a move since now uthrow is pretty bad at killing. I know it was buffed a little in Brawl+, but I feel it could still be better.

The other combos you said are so exactly they aren't reliable one bit. Try and get a dash attack usmash on a reasonably good player, it won't happen. As easy as it seems to be to land nair (which I still abuse on most people), it takes a very long time for the hitbox to get infront of him, which is where it would primarily be used. To quote Fiction: "ROB's Nair is a terrible move, it is so slow that no one should ever get hit by it." That was referring to vBrawl of course, but there are little to no guaranteed combos into it in Brawl+. dthrow to nair requires such precision in following the DI Perfectly to do it as fast as possible, and on a lot of characters the window for it being a true combo regardless of DI at kill percents is insanely small, like a specific 5-10%. I know in 5.0 it was a true combo on MK regardless of DI from somewhere around 89 - 97% or so where it killed, and making sure you get that grab in those exact percents is quite unnerving. I haven't tested it in 6.0 yet really to see if there's been any changes in gravity or something because it was really close as it was in 5.0 and easy for the MK to air dodge or jump out of if the rob didnt time it perfectly, so the smallest change would really F it up.

As for looking at what else ROB is good for, he's god tier at gimps, but guess what - the smarter a player gets, the harder it is - nearing on practically impossible - to get gimps. Some characters get gimped worse than others (those that are required to recover low), but so many characters have things that laugh at it.

ROB's kill moves are quite hard to hit, and there are very few, and probably none on most characters, setups for these kill moves. And in exchange ROB doesn't have insane priority to help him land these moves like other characters have in exchange.

Not long ago you said that ROB is top tier in B+ and only has like 2 bad matchups. Well, which is it?

ROB is fine. He should have trouble outright killing because he lives longer than just about anyone else and edgeguards/gimps like a maniac.

 

[RuKeN]

brawl+ no run in my wii

i give a wii 4.1 ES
i use neogamma r8 beta7, backup launcer 0.3 and GeckOS 1.9.1

my brawl is ntsc, but not work

i need help -.-"

 

[CT Chia]

I don't typically say any tiers for B+ characters as it's a lot more even that Brawl and the game is always changing. I did say he probably only has a couple of bad matchups, but didn't really comment on much else. He has more than 2 from some matchups I overlooked (problem matchups that come to mind are Jiggs, Lucario, and DDD (though I haven't played against DDD too much post nerf, but it probably won't be too different)). The main thing I'm seeing is that so many characters are changing a lot while ROB is potentially the same. There honestly isn't much difference from ROB now back to ROB in v4.2 or w/e BtL1 used.

Also, I can already tell the same thing is happening to Brawl+ that happened to vBrawl. As time goes on ROB gets continuously worse. Players get smarter and the metagame advances, and the gimps that ROB relies on so much work less and less as time goes on. Also, ROB isn't that great at surviving. He does a bit better in this game compared to vB with the addition of overB, but it's easier to get edgeguarded from below and with losing gas, that's a big problem. Especially vertically, ROB dies far earlier compared to characters like the heavyweights.

Compare characters like DDD and ROB together. DDD has better combo ability, lives longer, spaces better, better grab range, and kills earlier to name most of the aspects. Yea ROB can gimp better, but relying on gimps is paper thing, and will work less and less as time goes on. He needs more guaranteed things per se like other characters have.

 

[omegablackmage]

I don't typically say any tiers for B+ characters as it's a lot more even that Brawl and the game is always changing. I did say he probably only has a couple of bad matchups, but didn't really comment on much else. He has more than 2 from some matchups I overlooked (problem matchups that come to mind are Jiggs, Lucario, and DDD (though I haven't played against DDD too much post nerf, but it probably won't be too different)). The main thing I'm seeing is that so many characters are changing a lot while ROB is potentially the same. There honestly isn't much difference from ROB now back to ROB in v4.2 or w/e BtL1 used.

Also, I can already tell the same thing is happening to Brawl+ that happened to vBrawl. As time goes on ROB gets continuously worse. Players get smarter and the metagame advances, and the gimps that ROB relies on so much work less and less as time goes on. Also, ROB isn't that great at surviving. He does a bit better in this game compared to vB with the addition of overB, but it's easier to get edgeguarded from below and with losing gas, that's a big problem. Especially vertically, ROB dies far earlier compared to characters like the heavyweights.

Compare characters like DDD and ROB together. DDD has better combo ability, lives longer, spaces better, better grab range, and kills earlier to name most of the aspects. Yea ROB can gimp better, but relying on gimps is paper thing, and will work less and less as time goes on. He needs more guaranteed things per se like other characters have.

Thats probably something to wait and see on. Whether its true or not, no one is really the wiser, as the game ages we'll understand better where rob stands. We should avoid making unnecessary/unwarranted changes especially ones without any data/results to back it up.

 

[Bandit]

No matter what you do to ROB, he will still be the campy, projectile spamming character he is. He still spaces on the ground with ftilt, uses his pretty safe nair to approach and kill, and has various gimping strategies. His Uthrow is a kill throw and his other throws set him up. The only thing that is different in vBrawl that I just said is his Uthrow didn't kill like it does in B+. And now, you can spam the crap out of Nair without it degrading.

Also, ROB should have no problems with Jiggs. Fair + Ftilt + Gyro + Lasers = No approach for Jiggs. Camp the crap out of him and win.

 

[iLink]

No matter what you do to ROB, he will still be the campy, projectile spamming character he is. He still spaces on the ground with ftilt, uses his pretty safe nair to approach and kill, and has various gimping strategies. His Uthrow is a kill throw and his other throws set him up. The only thing that is different in vBrawl that I just said is his Uthrow didn't kill like it does in B+. And now, you can spam the crap out of Nair without it degrading.

Also, ROB should have no problems with Jiggs. Fair + Ftilt + Gyro + Lasers = No approach for Jiggs. Camp the crap out of him and win.

ROB can't camp Jigglypuff at all have you tried playing a competent Jigglypuff? They are always in your face and hard to hit with their aerial moment always getting them out of trouble. If anything, ROB has more range with Fair and Ftilt but those aren't exactly easy to land with a Jigglypuff that is always on the move.

As for his KO moves, I think his Nair and Bair are fairly solid considering the duration the hitbox is out. I've never really had much of a problem KO'ing along with his silly gimps with fair.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I was just playing Brawl+ a while ago, and couldn't get Nana to grab anything to save my life.

Has the Sub-climber's grab been removed, or do I just suck with it?

 

[Veril]

Nana's grab was removed.

 

[L-a-t-e-r-a-l-u-s]

Nana's grab was removed.

I deem that bull****.

 

[Daakun]

Unless you make down special push outward again, all the change really does is piss off IC mains.

 

[The Cape]

We discussed it with ICer mains before we made it.

Nana has invulnerability during the old grab frames and she also has an IASA to allow her to move ten frames after the grab (about 5-8 sooner than Popo). This creates another desync option and removes their infinite while keeping good throw and follow up combos. Another good desync option while removing the infinite is a good choice overall to keep the characters playing excellently and without their "you made a mistake and now you lose a stock" bull****.

 

[Daakun]

Why not just have Nana unable to grab during Popo's hold/throw animations, and vice versa?
Still doesn't fix the blizzard issue, but it's better than killing the grab outright.

 

[CT Chia]

No matter what you do to ROB, he will still be the campy, projectile spamming character he is. He still spaces on the ground with ftilt, uses his pretty safe nair to approach and kill, and has various gimping strategies. His Uthrow is a kill throw and his other throws set him up. The only thing that is different in vBrawl that I just said is his Uthrow didn't kill like it does in B+. And now, you can spam the crap out of Nair without it degrading.

Also, ROB should have no problems with Jiggs. Fair + Ftilt + Gyro + Lasers = No approach for Jiggs. Camp the crap out of him and win.

There is so much wrong with this post -_-
Really, OBM is the only one that's said something somewhat insightful with waiting a bit longer and keeping watch before a change is done. I'm just bringing this up because I'm noticing it a lot more as time goes on already, especially when playing against the top of the top players.

But as for this post, no, ROB is not limited to being campy and projectile spamming. I thought one of the main parts of Brawl+ was to have options anyway? There are certain matchups even in vB that require you to go all out offensive and take advantage of the opponents flaws (DK comes to mind). Spacing on the ground with ftilt now is a tad harder now than in vB from everyone's reduced landing lag that ROB could take advantage of in vB. Nair is really only safe while retreating it but that doesn't accomplish anything besides keeping you safe, yet not damaging the opponent either. Staying in place or moving forward can easily get shielding then punished. You're Zelda, so example: shield it then usmash. His uthrow is hardly a kill move compared to most other character's kill moves. His throws hardly do any setups besides low % combos into uair and such.

Also note for his projectiles... do you know the startup lag for his laser? You should check it out, it's pretty horrendous when trying to thwart an oncoming opponent.

 

[The Cape]

Why not just have Nana unable to grab during Popo's hold/throw animations, and vice versa?
Still doesn't fix the blizzard issue, but it's better than killing the grab outright.

We actually tried that and found some grab release issues and such.

We also looked at the blizzard and made it so that it did not pull in nearly as hard so with diligent DI you can avoid D throw > Blizzard > Grab repeats.

Is that the issue you were addressing?

 

[Zatchiel]

Brawl+? Ive heard of that, its not better than brawl, but its like
Brawl and Melee Fused....

 

[The Cape]

It makes the attempt to bring together alot of the good aspects of all of the smash games to create an alternate game to play for those that were not entirely pleased with brawl and/or tired of Melee.

The + indicates that it is Brawl + changes, not that it is better than Brawl.

Have you gotten to try it out yet?

 

[Rudra]

This isnt the first time he's posted like that.

 

[Bandit]

There is so much wrong with this post -_-
Really, OBM is the only one that's said something somewhat insightful with waiting a bit longer and keeping watch before a change is done. I'm just bringing this up because I'm noticing it a lot more as time goes on already, especially when playing against the top of the top players.

But as for this post, no, ROB is not limited to being campy and projectile spamming. I thought one of the main parts of Brawl+ was to have options anyway? There are certain matchups even in vB that require you to go all out offensive and take advantage of the opponents flaws (DK comes to mind). Spacing on the ground with ftilt now is a tad harder now than in vB from everyone's reduced landing lag that ROB could take advantage of in vB. Nair is really only safe while retreating it but that doesn't accomplish anything besides keeping you safe, yet not damaging the opponent either. Staying in place or moving forward can easily get shielding then punished. You're Zelda, so example: shield it then usmash. His uthrow is hardly a kill move compared to most other character's kill moves. His throws hardly do any setups besides low % combos into uair and such.

Also note for his projectiles... do you know the startup lag for his laser? You should check it out, it's pretty horrendous when trying to thwart an oncoming opponent.

I play JCaesar all the time; he is basically my neighbor, so I am well aware of ROB's capabilities.

Shielding Nair means I have to hold shield because of shield stun which if you auto-cancel correctly leads to dtilt/jab which continues the problem. Ftilt is just as good at spacing as it was before.

ROB's throws are better than Zelda's. She has Bthrow as a kill throw which kills at 130 near the edge with good DI. Otherwise, her throws are garbage. I'm not complaining about them like you are with ROB who has setups at some % unlike Zelda. The only setup I have is Uthrow on fast fallers in the mid %'s.

ROB's pressure game is fantastic, he has gyro and laser, and some pretty safe aerials in Nair and Bair. Not to mention, he has one of the best recoveries in the game. His fair string for side screen gimps is pretty Godly against some characters.

Lastly, B+ was created in a way to promote offense, but it does not eliminate the defensive game. If you are saying ROB is basically the same, you should be playing him in a similar fashion to vBrawl. ROB is a defensive character.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Nana's grab was removed.

If the ICs mains don't object, then I have no reason to either as I don't play them at all. So take this with that in mind.

However, this seems worse than simply leaving the infinite in. This limits so much more than just CGs, and outright removing something this major is...well, the exact opposite of conservative change. That's the biggest change in the game character wise, and really not in a good way as I see it.


Figures. The climbers get figuratively hobbled, and all we hear *****ing about is Marth's f***ing fair. xD

 

[darksamus77]

If the ICs mains don't object, then I have no reason to either as I don't play them at all. So take this with that in mind.

However, this seems worse than simply leaving the infinite in. This limits so much more than just CGs, and outright removing something this major is...well, the exact opposite of conservative change. That's the biggest change in the game character wise, and really not in a good way as I see it.


Figures. The climbers get figuratively hobbled, and all we hear *****ing about is Marth's f***ing fair. xD

qft
10chars

 

[matt4300]

Figures. The climbers get figuratively hobbled, and all we hear *****ing about is Marth's f***ing fair. xD

**** ****ing strait. This is why chars like oli and Mario only have 1 or 2 people looking into them, and really working hard on them... Because everyone else is to busy jerking off the Falcos, Marths, and Foxes of the game. Sigh...

For instance... Anyone got anything they wanna share on mario? Mabey talk about some cape glitches? Ya know that glitch that screws some of the kills that mario could have gotten? No? Ok back to Rarth...

 

[PKNintendo]

Why are people saying Rarth? And Matt, do you mind telling us about the cape glitch.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I play Wolf a bunch. I pick him, Wario, etc at tournaments. Wolf is actually one of the characters I feel safer playing as against people like SK92 and Fow with sometimes. It all depends. I've got experience, but I'm no pro, I guess, haha.

I think that, if absolutely necessary, I wouldn't mind if Wolf's Side-B was made weaker, however, I think it should still be able to kill eventually. Just not too badly.

Also, I think that Wolf's Side-B SHOULD NOT spike again due to the possibility of Wolf getting punished for recovering. I think of it like this:

Wolf Side-Bs -> Enemy gets spiked onto the stage -> Enemy techs! -> Enemy follows up his/her tech, if possible, and punishes Wolf for recovering correctly.

Weaker horizontal hitting Side-B is fine with me, but I'd definitely prefer against a spiking Side-B.

 

[matt4300]

Why are people saying Rarth? And Matt, do you mind telling us about the cape glitch.

Rarth = marth+roy+marth mains *****ing to make a point... kinda like the Meta knight minus thread but not funny.


Everyone should know about the cape glitch... where if you cape someone as the snap to they ledge they flip around and grab through the ledge backwards. Someone mentioned it a page or 2 back, but was quickly shut out by horny marth mains and other various marth debaters

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Mario's cape is also dumb for the fact that if you Cape a Sonic/Lucario/G&W after they've used their up-b already, they get it back. I believe that this wasn't in vBrawl, but I could be mistaken.

EDIT: Well, either way, it's a pretty stupid thing...

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Everyone should know about the cape glitch... where if you cape someone as the snap to they ledge they flip around and grab through the ledge backwards. Someone mentioned it a page or 2 back, but was quickly shut out by horny marth mains and other various marth debaters

Does this affect anything other than the straight vertical recoveries? Like, Spacies or Sonic going straight up?

EDIT

Mario's cape is also dumb for the fact that if you Cape a Sonic/Snake after they've used their up-b already, they get it back. I believe that this wasn't in vBrawl, but I could be mistaken.

This was in vBrawl.

 

[matt4300]

Does this affect anything other than the straight vertical recoveries? Like, Spacies or Sonic going straight up?

EDIT


This was in vBrawl.

Ive done it to gannon and falcon mulitiple times, and if I recall zelda.

Mario's cape is also dumb for the fact that if you Cape a Sonic/Lucario/G&W after they've used their up-b already, they get it back. I believe that this wasn't in vBrawl, but I could be mistaken.

EDIT: Well, either way, it's a pretty stupid thing...

That recovery get back thing also happens with snake...


Honestly things like this shouldnt be overlooked just because mario wasent high teir in melee. Gimping IS marios game... Its just as important as marths fair. This makes some matchups like snake very difficult. This is ALL mario has on snake, or atleast should have. When its all hes got in some matchups you shouldent have to pray it doesnt glitch up when you hit with it.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Ive done it to gannon and falcon mulitiple times, and if I recall zelda.

That recovery get back thing also happens with snake...

Why are you capeing those two on the edge anyway? o.o

And more importantly, why are you capeing Snake ever?

 

[matt4300]

Why are you capeing those two on the edge anyway? o.o

And more importantly, why are you capeing Snake ever?

1. because I sometimes do it right as they snap.

2. Its the principal of it. Sonic shoulent get a get out of jail free card on mario. How many people fear fighting a mario? ever? I'm not talking about boss. (who seems to play marios better half more in + anyway)

Marios not Dan hibiki. Hes not a joke char. Some people seriously play him. His moves should never just Not work on some chars.

You know what I get when I play against someone with mario? "LOL mario?" or some **** about needing to pick up luigi or shiek. I do rock people now and again if they are a gimpable char...

The point is look into mario some more... Gitches an all. I know I have been in psa looking for fixes.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

That recovery get back thing also happens with snake...

I actually originally put Snake, then I went to test it, and it doesn't refresh Snake's Cipher, so I edited it...

 

[matt4300]

I actually originally put Snake, then I went to test it, and it doesn't refresh Snake's Cipher, so I edited it...

@_@ I could have sworn... But yeh I was also doing some testing... and realized it doesn't how did we both skrew this up... I play mario all the time... Not against snake that much though.

Regardless our points about other chars still stand. Just replace all the "snakes" in the last post to " lucario" or "sonic"

VVV Lucas is very similar to Vbrawl... Hes just faster in some respects.

 

[prOAPC]

i like this project a lot, but i hate you all because of what you did to Lucas, now he's a completly different character

btw, have you made the game slower comparing to version 1.0?

 

[ValTroX]

dude, Lucas is like the most similar character to his vBrawl counterpart