Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

[Veril]

I'm not sure about that one actually, mostly it'll just remove the ability to renew jumps from below the stage (with the lip of FD) without needing to snap to the ledge. A fairly pointless but occasionally disruptive glitch.

 

[Daakun]

Will it fix Lucario boucing off to his death?

 

[VietGeek]

That is dependent on whether or not Lucario can scale that type of wall and not go into Special Fall to begin with.

Also want to add that there's a FD glitch where between the "ceiling collisions" and "wall collision" (AKA the innermost part of the lip) is extremely ideal due to it significantly dampening knockback, and can save you from stage spikes (as if ledgeteching was not sufficient?).

There's not much evidence out there, but here's an age-old video of it occurring, conveniently set to the a few seconds before the phenomenon occurs (with annotations):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1ASRgVqKHk#t=3m48s

While the match is notably laggy, notice how that specific moment was only a severe frame-rate drop.

Also notice how no one will really care but this definitely makes for a good post to offset the random ramblings I do on a daily basis out of habit.

 

[MK26]

*insert obligatory "viet is making sense!" joke here*

 

[Veril]

The recoveries that cause characters to bounce off walls and fall to their deaths are being looked at. I mean, Diddy's in particular can land onstage and still lead to death. This actually happened when I was playing friendlies with AlphaZealot... pretty sad since he didn't actually mess up the recovery at all. Its hard to feel sympathy for a genuinely botched recovery, but it really did get him just barely onto the stage and still...

Yeah, so a fix for these recoveries is in the works.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I remember you mentioning it at pound. Care to explain it in greater detail, it sounded pretty interesting.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Get this guys! Last Sunday's tournament, SK92 lost to Xero, Vegas' ONLY Olimar player, and Fow lost to bug, buff Tilin, our awesome Ike. I didn't see the Grand Finals, but Tilin was either 1st or 2nd and SK92/Xero were 2nd/3rd.

Honestly, I'm surprised that SK lost to Xero because he always beats him. Olimar just dominated Falco that game.

Olimar/Ike winning instead of Falco/Ness!? Blasphemy! Olimar is gay cough. =]

 

[CountKaiser]

The only other Olimar+ that I ever knew to exist is AndyG, and I haven't heard from him in forever. It's nice to see another Olimar for once.

 

[stRIP]

changelist : (

 

[Plum]

Get this guys! Last Sunday's tournament, SK92 lost to Xero, Vegas' ONLY Olimar player, and Fow lost to bug, buff Tilin, our awesome Ike. I didn't see the Grand Finals, but Tilin was either 1st or 2nd and SK92/Xero were 2nd/3rd.

Honestly, I'm surprised that SK lost to Xero because he always beats him. Olimar just dominated Falco that game.

Olimar/Ike winning instead of Falco/Ness!? Blasphemy! Olimar is gay cough. =]

So there was more character diversity?
B+ is pro

Spoiler

limar

.

And replays or it didn't happen. Olimar is daaaamn good.

 

[ValTroX]

Hmmm I was looking at the Pound 4 tourney grand finals that JC uploaded and...darn, Ally is good in B+ too. Have you guys asked him what he prefers? B+ or vBrawl?

 

[kirox777]

The recoveries that cause characters to bounce off walls and fall to their deaths are being looked at. I mean, Diddy's in particular can land onstage and still lead to death. This actually happened when I was playing friendlies with AlphaZealot... pretty sad since he didn't actually mess up the recovery at all. Its hard to feel sympathy for a genuinely botched recovery, but it really did get him just barely onto the stage and still...

Yeah, so a fix for these recoveries is in the works.

is it possible to give diddy a button like DDD (down) so he can at will during his upB go into freefall state?
i wanted to try it myself but my laptop is down -_-'

 

[Alphatron]

The few times I play with Diddy, I usually space it so that I overshoot the ledge and land in the middle of the stage, or have the Up B end when I'm near the ledge. It's still a terrible recovery though.

 

[omegablackmage]

is it possible to give diddy a button like DDD (down) so he can at will during his upB go into freefall state?
i wanted to try it myself but my laptop is down -_-'

I think the problem with this is ddd's recovery doesn't get very good horizontal distance so if he up b's you can stay near the ledge in case he drops out early and react to it. Diddy, if he up b's early a good distance away from the edge attempting to land in the middle or on the other side of the stage would then be able to cancel to the edge when the opponent is trying to chase you down across the stage. This would make his recovery considerably better and I doubt we'll see a balancing change this drastic.

 

[CT Chia]

One of the main problems I'm still seeing with ROB is that he still has a lack of kill power. There's been tweaks here and there, but ROB as a whole has stayed the same for such a long time that as other characters continue to grow at points, ROB continues to just be... ROB.

I think one noteworthy change would be to buff his uthrow. Around the early times of Brawl when people weren't as good at DI'ing yet, uthrow was a somewhat reliable kill move for the otherwise weak robot. Nowadays with DI light opponents can live until 150%, and heavy ones to like 220%. I've uthrown Lucario at like 190% or so and he's lived, and it looks like he could take an ok amount more % as well.

Even though in + ROB can gimp crazy well, once opponents start getting out of the gimp percents, ROB is in a terrible position. Other characters have had major buffs in the kill department such as Ness and Jigglypuff to name a couple, and a similar fix hasn't been found for ROB despite that being his biggest issue atm.

I don't have the data in front of me atm, but I wonder how strong Jiggs uthrow is compared to ROB. Is it stronger?
ROBs needs to be even stronger than a normal killing throw because of how slow the animation is for it, it's extremely easy to DI. Something like Jiggs uthrow is very fast and can be tough to DI, ROB's uthrow takes about 20 minutes to do.

 

[JCaesar]

ROB's uthrow was buffed. It definitely kills Lucario well under 190% now.

He still has dash attack -> usmash and dthrow -> nair which both kill at very reasonable %s. Not to mention nair is not terribly difficult to land even without a setup. He's definitely in the lower half of the cast when it comes to kill power, but that's where he should be considering his other strengths. ROB is perfect.

 

[Veril]

Jigglypuff's up-throw is getting removed. I've said a number of times that it was not intended to kill as well as it does (and it won't kill at all after this, she's got killing throws already O.o). Don't compare other moves against it.

Also... what JC said. Rob is not going to be seeing any new changes.


I'll fill everyone in on the recovery fixes when I know exactly how it's going to work (Guy, respond to my inquiries asap)

 

[kirox777]

I think the problem with this is ddd's recovery doesn't get very good horizontal distance so if he up b's you can stay near the ledge in case he drops out early and react to it. Diddy, if he up b's early a good distance away from the edge attempting to land in the middle or on the other side of the stage would then be able to cancel to the edge when the opponent is trying to chase you down across the stage. This would make his recovery considerably better and I doubt we'll see a balancing change this drastic.

it doesnt necessarily have to completely stop diddy's momentum it can just be an option for like "oh no im guna hit the wall, let me press down so i dont blow up" but is this idea even possible of happening?

 

[RPGsFTW]

So there was more character diversity?
B+ is pro

Spoiler

limar

.

And replays or it didn't happen. Olimar is daaaamn good.

We've always had character diversity here in Vegas, just not a big amount of entrants. We had something like 7 people?

And I can never get replays saved that easily because the people just don't know why I want the replays. They just don't seem to want to just save it for me.

Like I said earlier, I may just be done with B+ in Vegas for awhile. I'm tired of the $6 every Sunday to play a very small amount of people. I asked about changing the $, but the TO doesn't wanna listen to that. I wanna try online tournaments for B+, whenever possible.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Are you guys going to do anything about Charizard's new, 0-KBG, and stupid D-smash and Wolf's knee-powered Forward B?

 

[Veril]

Are you guys going to do anything about Charizard's new, 0-KBG, and stupid D-smash and Wolf's knee-powered Forward B?

With Wolf... no.

With Charizard: be more specific about the 0-KBG. and... What makes the d-smash stupid? Seriously Jiang, I expect a bit more from your complaints.

it doesnt necessarily have to completely stop diddy's momentum it can just be an option for like "oh no im guna hit the wall, let me press down so i dont blow up" but is this idea even possible of happening?

This idea, while still not something I can do, isn't that bad. The method we will likely use to fix Diddy-esque recoveries will minimize the rage inducing wtf-I-so-sweetspotted-that-s*** death-bounce while still preventing autosweetspotting.

Letting Diddy cancel his up-b in the same way DDD has 2 problems:
1. The up-b could be canceled onstage, this would be a huge recovery buff, and I'd have to eat my words about preserving balance.
2. This change could not be applied evenly to the other characters suffering from a similar recovery.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

With Wolf... no.

With Charizard: be more specific about the 0-KBG. and... What makes the d-smash stupid? Seriously Jiang, I expect a bit more from your complaints.

If you're going to be running this with a more iron fist and removing things in previous builds which may have proved to be unnecessary changes, I implore to be more thorough and least look over these two changes as examples of what I believe to be frivolous changes and at least consider doing something about them. The reason I bring them up because they were both added for reasons which are beyond my understanding.

Can you please justify buffing wolf's forward B to have knee killing power? Jcaesar, a wolf main himself, said it was stupid and would gladly give it up for something else.

Can you please explain why Charizard's dsmash no longer kills? It has no knockback growth. At 999% it doesn't kill mini mushroom jigglypuff. What is the purpose of this move?

 

[Revven]

I can answer both of those to the best of my knowledge.

1. Wolf's Side B was given that power because the way it was before never really worked out at all, it didn't kill anyone even though it spiked. But that's not the main reason at all (more like a side reason), the main reason is because Wolf has a terribad recovery compared to the other spacies. His Up B is predictable and pretty much every move in the game beats it out I'm quite sure (it's also slow start up so anyone can just hit him before he can even Up B). SO the Side B sending more horizontal and having roughly the same stats as the knee (and yes, it's roughly because shanus said that it wasn't the exact stats, it's why it doesn't kill anyone below 80% from the middle of the stage) helps defend against edgeguarders by pushing them away from him rather than spiking them. Basically, it was to bandage his recovery. It also allows him a coool combo finisher (just a bonus) if someone fails to DI Dair or something to avoid Side B (not that anyone seriously uses Dair > Side B in a tournament match).

Sure with his scraping it is kind of ridiculous but, when you're playing against Wolf you should be predicting the Wolf user to scrape through the edge if it's a stage they can do it on. There are only a few select of these stages though so it's not a truly nasty side effect as one would expect. It just overall helps his recovery a little bit without going overboard like giving Ike no special fall on Side B is.

2. Charizard's Dsmash is now supposed to basically set up for Uair juggles if you use it to techchase with. All it is is an option for Charizard and adds a set up for what he does best in: techchasing & juggling. Dsmash was a move you wouldn't use for killing because by the time they were at killing percents for it, Dtilt, Ftilt, Fair, and Bair are far better, safer, and more guaranteed KO options than Dsmash is. So, basically, it just adds to his techchasing repertoire. I don't really see why it's unnecessary, it's not really breaking anything.

But, yeah, those are what the answers are as far as I know. If anyone else that was around for these two changes, feel free to add input where I forgot anything.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

...Some people don't know how to be grateful. I happen to low Wolf's current Forward-B. It makes the move actually USEFUL. Before it was just a crappy move that was likely to get you killed. -.o

 

[leafgreen386]

About the only thing I can say about charizard's dsmash is that a move like that having zero growth is very... awkward. It feels very unnatural for moves that aren't 1) multihit before the final hit, 2) a special, or 3) a throw to have set kb. You expect for them to have at least a little bit of growth, so foes don't end up getting launched exactly the same way every time.

 

[Markus Aralius]

does any one have any likes or dislikes to the new pit? i havn't been able to get NG yet.

 

[cobaltblue]

I have a question regarding snake, was there any particular reason why his weight was never changed to match that of say Ganon? It seems odd that he has a weight near that of DK and Bowser yet has way better recovery options.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I can answer both of those to the best of my knowledge.

1. Wolf's Side B was given that power because the way it was before never really worked out at all, it didn't kill anyone even though it spiked. But that's not the main reason at all (more like a side reason), the main reason is because Wolf has a terribad recovery compared to the other spacies. His Up B is predictable and pretty much every move in the game beats it out I'm quite sure (it's also slow start up so anyone can just hit him before he can even Up B). SO the Side B sending more horizontal and having roughly the same stats as the knee (and yes, it's roughly because shanus said that it wasn't the exact stats, it's why it doesn't kill anyone below 80% from the middle of the stage) helps defend against edgeguarders by pushing them away from him rather than spiking them. Basically, it was to bandage his recovery. It also allows him a coool combo finisher (just a bonus) if someone fails to DI Dair or something to avoid Side B (not that anyone seriously uses Dair > Side B in a tournament match).

Sure with his scraping it is kind of ridiculous but, when you're playing against Wolf you should be predicting the Wolf user to scrape through the edge if it's a stage they can do it on. There are only a few select of these stages though so it's not a truly nasty side effect as one would expect. It just overall helps his recovery a little bit without going overboard like giving Ike no special fall on Side B is.

Wow, quite a wall of text to justify a rather random change. Lots of excess text here.

You said that wolf's recovery was bad compared to the other spacies so you guys wanted to give him something to make up for it.. on what grounds? Just because he's a spacie? The spacies doesn't exist in a vacuum.. there are other characters out there. That kind of logic is flawed. Just because X has a trait that is similar yet not as powerful to Y doesn't mean that they need to be equal. And as I read the rest of your paragraph, you also go on to state that Wolf's recovery is also terrible compared to rest of the cast (See what I mean by excess text?) , leading you guys to the hasty conclusion that it must be buffed accordingly by giving it a rather ridiculously powerful hitbox.

I've seen this rubbish argument far too many times, and let it be said that just because a character has a disadvantage in one field compared to the rest of the cast doesn't mean that it needs to buffed.. In most cases, that weakness is what defines that character's play style.

And honestly the answer is more testing and less changing. Not enough time is spent letting people actually play characters against each other without throwing down random changes. Wolf's sideB was a random change which was added for really no reason other than lack of knowledge. I think we can even agree that Wolf does fine without it, if anything it's just annoying to die to it.

2. Charizard's Dsmash is now supposed to basically set up for Uair juggles if you use it to techchase with. All it is is an option for Charizard and adds a set up for what he does best in: techchasing & juggling. Dsmash was a move you wouldn't use for killing because by the time they were at killing percents for it, Dtilt, Ftilt, Fair, and Bair are far better, safer, and more guaranteed KO options than Dsmash is. So, basically, it just adds to his techchasing repertoire. I don't really see why it's unnecessary, it's not really breaking anything.

1. Have you actually used it in practice? His dsmash doesn't feel fast or big enough to tech chase with.. Not to mention Charizard isn't exactly that maneuverable.

2. See bolded statement. That is a stupid argument. DDD's quake hammer wasn't "breaking anything", therefore by your logic it should stay in, but was removed as an effort to weed out many of the random and silly changes added to the game. Please don't fluff up your posts with unnecessary comments.




Oh. One more thing. Aura on Toon Link's dair. Looks stupid. Plz remove.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

...Jiang, you seem to be VERY full of yourself. It sounds more like you just think whatever is in your head is correct and whatever anyone else says that conflicts with it is wrong. And obviously we can't agree that he does fine without it since more people seem to like him with it. I'm surprised you're not complaining about his Forward Air instead. Now that move is a bit overpowered.

Just because you think something is stupid doesn't mean everyone should stop what they're doing to remove it. But I doubt any of this is going to even reach into your head, so this post is pretty much futile. >_>

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

...Jiang, you seem to be VERY full of yourself. It sounds more like you just think whatever is in your head is correct and whatever anyone else says that conflicts with it is wrong. And obviously we can't agree that he does fine without it since more people seem to like him with it. I'm surprised you're not complaining about his Forward Air instead. Now that move is a bit overpowered.

Just because you think something is stupid doesn't mean everyone should stop what they're doing to remove it. But I doubt any of this is going to even reach into your head, so this post is pretty much futile. >_>

Hey, I'm glad we agree that this post you just made is completely pointless.

So why did you post it?

 

[DarkDragoon]

Wow, quite a wall of text to justify a rather random change. Lots of excess text here.

You said that wolf's recovery was bad compared to the other spacies so you guys wanted to give him something to make up for it.. on what grounds? Just because he's a spacie? The spacies doesn't exist in a vacuum.. there are other characters out there. That kind of logic is flawed. Just because X has a trait that is similar yet not as powerful to Y doesn't mean that they need to be equal. And as I read the rest of your paragraph, you also go on to state that Wolf's recovery is also terrible compared to rest of the cast (See what I mean by excess text?) , leading you guys to the hasty conclusion that it must be buffed accordingly by giving it a rather ridiculously powerful hitbox.

I've seen this rubbish argument far too many times, and let it be said that just because a character has a disadvantage in one field compared to the rest of the cast doesn't mean that it needs to buffed.. In most cases, that weakness is what defines that character's play style.

And honestly the answer is more testing and less changing. Not enough time is spent letting people actually play characters against each other without throwing down random changes. Wolf's sideB was a random change which was added for really no reason other than lack of knowledge. I think we can even agree that Wolf does fine without it, if anything it's just annoying to die to it.

That's a larger wall of text to deal with a smaller wall of text. Wolf's recovery sucks, and the team felt it was necessary change. If its annoying to die to it, then don't get hit. Its not hard to shield, or know when its coming. Its such a painfully obvious attack. There is no issue here other than you making one.

1. Have you actually used it in practice? His dsmash doesn't feel fast or big enough to tech chase with.. Not to mention Charizard isn't exactly that maneuverable.

2. See bolded statement. That is a stupid argument. DDD's quake hammer wasn't "breaking anything", therefore by your logic it should stay in, but was removed as an effort to weed out many of the random and silly changes added to the game. Please don't fluff up your posts with unnecessary comments.

What did you want to use DSmash for? A kill move? If it isn't fast or maneuverable, why would you want it for a killing move? He already said that Charizard has tons of superior killing options, so this was an aim to make a useless move useful. Obviously, if you're complaining about not being able to kill with the DSmash, you're able to hit with it, so how about you use it as intended and techchase that hit.

Oh. One more thing. Aura on Toon Link's dair. Looks stupid. Plz remove.

No.
Have a nice day.
-DD

 

[stingers]

jiang got his first period today guys =) congratulations on becoming a woman

lucas+ thoughts: get rid of his neutral B, just make nothing happen like solo pokemon down b. it would make lucas 50x better

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

jiang got his first period today guys =) congratulations on becoming a woman

That title under your name is right, you ARE a hero! XD

This post is making me laugh too hard to bother responding to him...her...that? O_o;

 

[The Cape]

lol @ Stingers.

Too funny **** there.

 

[Daakun]

Solo Pokemon down special should be made into an extra taunt! >_>

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

That's a larger wall of text to deal with a smaller wall of text. Wolf's recovery sucks, and the team felt it was necessary change. If its annoying to die to it, then don't get hit. Its not hard to shield, or know when its coming. Its such a painfully obvious attack. There is no issue here other than you making one.

I fight fire with fire.

And you are ignoring the point. Please reread my post and get back to me ASAP.

What did you want to use DSmash for? A kill move? If it isn't fast or maneuverable, why would you want it for a killing move? He already said that Charizard has tons of superior killing options, so this was an aim to make a useless move useful. Obviously, if you're complaining about not being able to kill with the DSmash, you're able to hit with it, so how about you use it as intended and techchase that hit.

Umm.. I'd like to follow the new philosophy and only change what is needed. And to abide by that philosophy is to remove any frivolous changes in the past and make the changes according to tourney results and or extensively friendlies. That change I believe was made with good intent but in the end doesn't really provide much.

No.
Have a nice day.
-DD

I'm sorry, who are you again? Doesn't that magenta name mean even less now?

jiang got his first period today guys =) congratulations on becoming a woman

k bro dude you are the most pimpin e-thug man i wanna be like u when i grow hair down there

That title under your name is right, you ARE a hero! XD

This post is making me laugh too hard to bother responding to him...her...that? O_o;

hey man that sonic with the emo hair is pretty sweet did u design that yourself

lol @ Stingers.

Too funny **** there.

cape you make me so hot

 

[Thunderhorse+]

On Charizard's dsmash:

1. Have you actually used it in practice? His dsmash doesn't feel fast or big enough to tech chase with.. Not to mention Charizard isn't exactly that maneuverable.

I certainly have, and on a certain point you're right: it is peculiarly slow and the hitbox isn't as large as some of the other tech-chasing options you're used to. in fact, I believe his grab has about 2x the range of the dsmash (if not moreso. Obviously not calculated to the exact decimal point). However, SMK neglected to mention one very important thing about it: it leads into alot more than simply uairs. Oh it can if you want, but if you so desire, it can also lead into a grab...usmash...Rock Smash...hell I've even landed a forward smash directly off of it. See, it can be followed up with **** well near everything, and that's the beauty of it. And before you cry about guaranteed/easy combos, it is nothing like 5.0 combos. Nothing. Because it's so **** hard to hit with in the first place. It's risk vs reward: taking a huge gamble on a tech chasing move that by most accounts is completely inferior to...well, any other option you have. But if you manage to score a hit at 70% or 90%, you can easily take a really early stock off with a fsmash/Rock Smash follow up. Not only does that bring something new to Charizard and give purpose to his dsmash, it fits Charizard's playstyle to a tee.

Also aside from the air, Charizard isn't THAT immobile His ground speed is 7th fastest in the game, tied with Pikachu. And I doubt you'll be using much of dsmash in the air.**

Oh. One more thing. Aura on Toon Link's dair. Looks stupid. Plz remove.

This I actually agree with though. It looks mad silly. But it doesn't affect balance, so meh.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

@Jiang

Wow...did the maturity level in this thread just plummet into oblivion or what? ¦D

If you're going to try to make people understand your point, first make it valid, then make yourself a valid personality, and then we'll talk. ¦3

 

[DarkDragoon]

On Charizard's dsmash:



I certainly have, and on a certain point you're right: it is peculiarly slow and the hitbox isn't as large as some of the other tech-chasing options you're used to. in fact, I believe his grab has about 2x the range of the dsmash (if not moreso. Obviously not calculated to the exact decimal point). However, SMK neglected to mention one very important thing about it: it leads into alot more than simply uairs. Oh it can if you want, but if you so desire, it can also lead into a grab...usmash...Rock Smash...hell I've even landed a forward smash directly off of it. See, it can be followed up with **** well near everything, and that's the beauty of it. And before you cry about guaranteed/easy combos, it is nothing like 5.0 combos. Nothing. Because it's so **** hard to hit with in the first place. It's risk vs reward: taking a huge gamble on a tech chasing move that by most accounts is completely inferior to...well, any other option you have. But if you manage to score a hit at 70% or 90%, you can easily take a really early stock off with a fsmash/Rock Smash follow up. Not only does that bring something new to Charizard and give purpose to his dsmash, it fits Charizard's playstyle to a tee.

Also aside from the air, Charizard isn't THAT immobile His ground speed is 7th fastest in the game, tied with Pikachu. And I doubt you'll be using much of dsmash in the air.**



This I actually agree with though. It looks mad silly. But it doesn't affect balance, so meh.

x_x Thank you.

@Jiang

Wow...did the maturity level in this thread just plummet into oblivion or what? ¦D

If you're going to try to make people understand your point, first make it valid, then make yourself a valid personality, and then we'll talk. ¦3

Don't feed trolls please, it doesn't help.
-DD

 

[IC3R]

gg