Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

[The_Guide]

@Jiang

Wow...did the maturity level in this thread just plummet into oblivion or what? ¦D

If you're going to try to make people understand your point, first make it valid, then make yourself a valid personality, and then we'll talk. ¦3

Says the person who flamed him in the first place.

Edit: Sees IC3R's pic. Feels guilty for giving up the neutrality that lurking provides, over some stupid little e-argument.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Don't feed trolls please, it doesn't help.
-DD

Gotcha. Sorry about that. Had a little too much fun. ¦D;

Edit: @Guide

Flame? Who? So telling people their flaws is flaming now? How sad. :<

 

[PKNintendo]

So, I'm in the dark here. What was the D3/Samus change?

 

[The_Guide]

D3 received a damage nerf to his dair, lost the quake hammer, and had the range of his bair nerfed. I think thats everything.

For Samus, she lost an infinite involving her bombs. I don't know the specifics, as I don't main her.

 

[Plum]

DDD lost short hop double Bair, Bair's hitbox matches the animation, and both Dair and Bair do less damage now. And no more tripping on Fsmash.

Samus had a looping combo of bomb into Fair into bomb into Fair and so on which was removed.

-Ninja'd

 

[Isatis]

Wow @ page 32.

Seriously? -.-

 

[Thunderhorse+]

So, I'm in the dark here. What was the D3/Samus change?

D3 changes:

~bair hitbox shrunk to match animation
~bair IASA moved to 36 from 33 (just makes it barely unable to SHDBair)
~bair damage reduced to 11% from 13% (less shieldstun)
~dair damage reduced to 8% to 17% (1% on all linking hits, 2% for final hit)
~quakehammer removed from fsmash.

Samus changes:

~bomb->fair loop removed

Hope you're a little less in the dark .

 

[Markus Aralius]

can some one let me know the pit changes?

 

[JCaesar]

the main reason is because Wolf has a terribad recovery compared to the other spacies.

Wolf's recovery sucks

You guys must be smoking some pretty powerful stuff.

Wolf's recovery > Falco's >>>> Fox's

Falco's recovery is good because his side-B is very fast and difficult to intercept, but it's still predictable. Fox's recovery is a much slower and slightly longer version of Falco's. Wolf's recovery is good because he has more options available to him and can easily choose to recover to the edge or the stage at will. It's harder to predict where his side-B will end up, plus it can be canceled which changes the trajectory and speed greatly. His up-B is arguably the best of the spacies, and was recently nerfed because of its insane priority.

That said, even though he doesn't need it, I wouldn't want to see the side-B buff go. I've learned how to use it offensively and it's really satisfying to land it.

 

[ValTroX]

I think Wolf is ok as he is now, he's a little hard to edgeguard as JC said, but I think he's where he should be. Now, if I have a complain about a space animal, it is Falco's UpB, it's INCREDIBLY short, if you have yo use it diagonally, you die most of the time because Falco hardly raises his own size. Also, guys, we need to chill around here, I mean, Jiang was just expressing his opinion, if you think he was wrong, well say so in a respectful way(like Falco did), no need to go over the top with first period crap and then come back with"did you design your emo looking avatar". Let me clarify before Veril comes in and ninja my post, I'm NOT asking for a Falco UpB buff, I guess the explanation on it is the same as Diddy, their ground game is good, so they need some weakness.

 

[DarkDragoon]

You guys must be smoking some pretty powerful stuff.

Wolf's recovery > Falco's >>>> Fox's

Falco's recovery is good because his side-B is very fast and difficult to intercept, but it's still predictable. Fox's recovery is a much slower and slightly longer version of Falco's. Wolf's recovery is good because he has more options available to him and can easily choose to recover to the edge or the stage at will. It's harder to predict where his side-B will end up, plus it can be canceled which changes the trajectory and speed greatly. His up-B is arguably the best of the spacies, and was recently nerfed because of its insane priority.

That said, even though he doesn't need it, I wouldn't want to see the side-B buff go. I've learned how to use it offensively and it's really satisfying to land it.

I always felt like Wolf's directional options on his UpB were always too rigid, and it didn't seem to have as many "in-between" angles that Fox/Falco have. Then again, I might just be doing it wrong :3. Fairly certain Wolf's ledgegrab range is a lot smaller than Fox/Falco's too though, which lends a hand to it.
-DD

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

You guys must be smoking some pretty powerful stuff.

Wolf's recovery > Falco's >>>> Fox's

Falco's recovery is good because his side-B is very fast and difficult to intercept, but it's still predictable. Fox's recovery is a much slower and slightly longer version of Falco's. Wolf's recovery is good because he has more options available to him and can easily choose to recover to the edge or the stage at will. It's harder to predict where his side-B will end up, plus it can be canceled which changes the trajectory and speed greatly. His up-B is arguably the best of the spacies, and was recently nerfed because of its insane priority.

That said, even though he doesn't need it, I wouldn't want to see the side-B buff go. I've learned how to use it offensively and it's really satisfying to land it.

...I'll give you Wolf's recovery being better than Falco's, but Falco's better than Fox's? Fox's worse than Wolf's? You MUST be crazy. O_o

Falco's with without a doubt the worst of the three. With his Up-B, half the time he doesn't even make it to the platform's ledge. Fox can go to it and past, and it's not slow at all. Plus the fact that it does damage anyways kinda throws that dilemma away. Then there's Wolf. His Up-B. Using it is pretty much asking to die. You're are the bottom of the stage trying to go straight up back to the platform. You use it. Almost half the he'll go past the ledge and do the kick, and then is either open for an attack, to sometimes he just won't latch onto the ledge (though there may be another reason that)

Fox>Wolf>Falco is the way I see it.

But at the same time, Wolf's Up-B does better for attacks and it harder to spike back down than the other two...

Wolf>Fox>Falco

There we go. :3

 

[stingers]

Jigglypuff > Wolf > Fox > Falco

> Lucas

Why does Lucas suck so much? Worst character in the game

 

[[TSON]]

Who's Lucas? ;p

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Who's Lucas? ;p

Exactly. :3

 

[Veril]

I just read the last page and it made me sad. You're tearing this family apart! "cries"

lucas+ thoughts: get rid of his neutral B, just make nothing happen like solo pokemon down b. it would make lucas 50x better

I want to do this... so bad. You don't even know. Well, you do... F*** pk-freeze! Useless garbage. Lucas will be benefiting from the recovery-death-bounce removal though. That's the only reason I haven't used Lucas in tourney anyway, he's fine otherwise.

 

[stingers]

Lucas Nair can be SMASH DI'D out of at ANY PERCENT STARTING AT 0%. WOW! And it's supposed to be an approach move!

Lucas Usmash, the only smash usable out of dash without using Dash Cancelling, isn't safe on shields. Isn't. Safe. On. Shields. My opponents frequently live up to 300% until they get into PK Fire death percent because of this horrible attribute.

Lucas Pivot Grab is beat by too many attacks, such as Falco's Neutral B and Marth's Down R. Why would you give characters such insane anti-Lucas Pivot Grab measures? Lucas is already bad enough. The WBR seriously needs to re-look this guy.

 

[ValTroX]

hey hey hey! stop the Lucas crap or I'll look for you and slash you up (I'm a Lucas main). Lucas is a great character and I use him pretty well, I'm sure theremust bo other Lucas players around o.O, they are just really hard to find.
EDIT: I wouldn't mind a Nair buff cause stingers is right
EDIT EDIT: Lol at you only being able to kill with PKfire dude, thats just wrong, Fair is your friend and he's dying to meet you

 

[Veril]

Lucas Usmash, the only smash usable out of dash without using Dash Cancelling, isn't safe on shields. Isn't. Safe. On. Shields. My opponents frequently live up to 300% until they get into PK Fire death percent because of this horrible attribute.

Is this a joke?

 

[stingers]

a) The answer is: I main Lucas too! omg

b) That was REALLY unnecessary <_<

 

[DarkDragoon]

I main Lucas too! omg

Most entertaining post of the year award.

Don't do it again >_>;
-DD

 

[ValTroX]

The thing about Lucas that charms me is that I can space VERY well with him and Stingers...Everyone's Upsmash is the only smash usable out of dash w/o cancel. Anyways, I love when people underestimate Lucas, because when the match starts and I start r4ping, you can look to the side and see a surprised face
EDIT: LOL at DD

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Anyways, I love when people underestimate Lucas

...Since when do people underestimate Lucas? He's nowhere near being a pushover. O_o

I know I don't underestimate him anyway. He's a great fighter. I just completely hate Lucas as a character in every aspect, that's all. I don't hate Lucas's moveset, I hate Lucas. XD

Also...stingers is too hilarious, and DD's comment just made it better. :3

 

[Sulfur]

Lolz at that post.
One of my good friends plays Lucas, and I really do think that he's balanced. He's got a great pressure game and can really mess with your head with wavebouncing and such.

 

[ValTroX]

...Since when do people underestimate Lucas? He's nowhere near being a pushover. O_o

I know I don't underestimate him anyway. He's a great fighter. I just completely hate Lucas as a character in every aspect, that's all. I don't hate Lucas's moveset, I hate Lucas. XD

Also...stingers is too hilarious, and DD's comment just made it better. :3

Well, I used to play vBrawl and when I chose Lucas, people would laugh(my guess is that they are underestimating him as a character). Anyways he's not bad...at all. And don't hate on Lucas or I'll own you with PK Freezes(joke)
EDIT: Lucas is probably the only character in B+ that I use almost as I use him in vBrawl, most, if not all other characters metagame changed in the transition.

 

[GHNeko]

Removing PK Freeze will increase Lucas' Matchups by 10 points.

All of them.


But seriously. I think Lucas is extremely versatile from what I've personally seen and experienced. I just think people should dedicate some more time to him and experiment with what he can do.

 

[ValTroX]

I don't know if you guys are joking about removing the PK Freeze(at least I think you are) but it has been mentioned a couple of times now and it's bothering me. I NEVER use PK Freeze, not even by accident, it's something that is there just to take up some space in the movelist. If you really wanna do something about it, buff the crap out of it and make it have a KB like Ness PK Flash

 

[stingers]

lol in all seriousness

Lucas is a great character, excellent at racking damage but hard to kill with like shiek or peach, you know. he's really balanced, which is kinda why people don't play him in +, but I love him anyway lol

his recovery will be fine after you remove that wall bounce thing so that will take away the only problem I had with him really. i might start taking brawl+ seriously again because the little dude is so fun, we'll see @.@

 

[Veril]

Lucas is a "gold" character other than the recovery issue. I keep saying I'm gonna put the effort into learning the kid again, but the recovery bs has dissuaded me.

Glad you're liking the adorable psychic coward :D

 

[stingers]

i feel like lucas' entire game is to SHAD to move around the stage because his lack of range means he has no other viable approach options. but once you get in you can do a lot so it makes it worth it. I just wish there was more to him :/ adding in the zair really really helped though, lucas was entirely 1 dimensional before that but now you can cancel the AD with a zair so it's a great surprise but then people start running out of zair range and it becomes a huge guessing game as to when you should jump

but anyways

good work on the lucas man :3

 

[Markus Aralius]

any information on pit's changes?

 

[HeroFalcon7]

Info on Falcon changes in 6.0?

 

[ValTroX]

There's no changelist yet Markus, your best bet is to go and experience Pit by yourself. I was trying to find a video I saw a couple of weeks ago(A really good GSH2 Pit) but i can't seem to find it.
EDIT: @Hero, Falcon feels incredible in 6.0, the most noticeable change since GSH2 is that you get your jump back after Falcon Kick

 

[The Cape]

The changelist from Brawl to current is in the works in detail. Please be patient.

 

[Markus Aralius]

well shoot... alright thanks any way

 

[Alphatron]

Lucas was the character who I attempted to main in vbrawl before I discovered one with superior psychic power.

Also, Princess Peach is probably the most rage worthy character in the whole game. Not even Ganondorf punishes the lack of DI with that kind of damage(35% uncharged dsmash, shield poker). And if I have to see that stichface one more time...

 

[GHNeko]

And if I have to see that stichface one more time...

Spoiler

infractiondodger

on-topic post: tbh, Peach is no where near the most rage worthy character in the whole entire game, even though she gets pretty **** close sometimes.

idk what it is about Peach, but she's a lot easier to deal with in this version. Probably because of the lowered hitstun and the adjustments that she went through.

Also is it just me, or is the life-expediency of the character's higher than what I think it should be? ie around 120% for lights and 150% heavies. Looking over Pound 4 vids. I notice characters living to Brawl percents. That and it's STILL pretty easy to recover in Brawl+

 

[CountKaiser]

Lucas was the character who I attempted to main in vbrawl before I discovered one with superior psychic power.

What are you talking about? Mewtwo isn't in brawl.

lol, jk.

What about Ness, you guys?

ib4 "No ***** *** ness"

 

[Plum]

Also is it just me, or is the life-expediency of the character's higher than what I think it should be? ie around 120% for lights and 150% heavies. Looking over Pound 4 vids. I notice characters living to Brawl percents. That and it's STILL pretty easy to recover in Brawl+

Here's what I see in a majority of B+ matches:

First three stocks of the match are highly aggressive, people make approaches, frequent low percent combos, mid percent strings, taking more risks to seek potential rewards. Things look great at this point.

Last stock for one or both characters, and bam. Camp mode turns on, and both players play overly cautious, there's few combos or strings, and it looks like a less floaty vBrawl. Stocks that already last a good while (120-150%) now get pushed to stupidly high percents (150-200% and higher) because nobody is willing to take any risk.

It's a shame, but then again what else can you expect? Money is on the line, so why wouldn't you play cautiously with very few risks? Those first few stocks are played aggressively because you have room for forgiveness, and the potential rewards for playing aggressively is a nice stock lead. Then once you no longer have that leniency both players sit in a spacing war. I don't know what B+ could do to fix that though really. Even Melee has that problem, though to a lesser degree. There were plenty of Melee matches in Pound 4 that I saw just become total camp fests (very flashy tech filled camp fests) because they were ahead in % or stock, or just because it was the last stock and something is on the line. Though Melee's importance on edgegaurding is a big reason why Melee doesn't hurt from this as much.

 

[GHNeko]

Even still, the poke fest continues well into 10-40% of the character's normal range, and really, I've seen some matches start off like a ballet. *coughglickguruvanzcough*