Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

[kirox777]

You guys must be smoking some pretty powerful stuff.

Wolf's recovery > Falco's >>>> Fox's

Falco's recovery is good because his side-B is very fast and difficult to intercept, but it's still predictable. Fox's recovery is a much slower and slightly longer version of Falco's. Wolf's recovery is good because he has more options available to him and can easily choose to recover to the edge or the stage at will. It's harder to predict where his side-B will end up, plus it can be canceled which changes the trajectory and speed greatly. His up-B is arguably the best of the spacies, and was recently nerfed because of its insane priority.

That said, even though he doesn't need it, I wouldn't want to see the side-B buff go. I've learned how to use it offensively and it's really satisfying to land it.

i see people get to speak... so why is it wolf gets even more killing power but characters that can barely make it COUGHsonicCOUGH cant get decent killing potential. wolf gets a CF knee for a recovery and sonic is still making ends meat. please fix sonics homing attack

 

[Daakun]

Sonic is a killing machine, you just have to work for it harder than most.
Just pop someone up at 50+% and they're good as dead.

Sonic's speed, quite obviously, is his largest asset.
You watch the DI, chase accordingly, and MURDER PEOPLE.

 

[Bandit]

I'm going to say this as bluntly as possible...

Homing attack is one of the worst moves in the game. You can see it coming a mile away and unless you are using in the way Cobalt already described to you, you should never, ever be pressing that button.

"Fixing" it would be disabling the attack from being used.

I feel better now...

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

"Whatever you do, don't press the little red button."

Seriously, move is freakin' garbage. >_>

 

[kirox777]

Here's what I see in a majority of B+ matches:

First three stocks of the match are highly aggressive, people make approaches, frequent low percent combos, mid percent strings, taking more risks to seek potential rewards. Things look great at this point.

Last stock for one or both characters, and bam. Camp mode turns on, and both players play overly cautious, there's few combos or strings, and it looks like a less floaty vBrawl. Stocks that already last a good while (120-150%) now get pushed to stupidly high percents (150-200% and higher) because nobody is willing to take any risk.

It's a shame, but then again what else can you expect? Money is on the line, so why wouldn't you play cautiously with very few risks? Those first few stocks are played aggressively because you have room for forgiveness, and the potential rewards for playing aggressively is a nice stock lead. Then once you no longer have that leniency both players sit in a spacing war. I don't know what B+ could do to fix that though really. Even Melee has that problem, though to a lesser degree. There were plenty of Melee matches in Pound 4 that I saw just become total camp fests (very flashy tech filled camp fests) because they were ahead in % or stock, or just because it was the last stock and something is on the line. Though Melee's importance on edgegaurding is a big reason why Melee doesn't hurt from this as much.

add more hitstun. that will defiantly fix it. if you are hit when you have a high percent if it doesnt kill you have to wait for them to come back to try again. when you are 150% you should be dead by now. with the little hitstun now, people just get hit barley go anywhere then easily recover. but i dont think thats something that should even be "fixed" i think we should leave some room so project m will be a different game then brawl+

 

[kirox777]

Everything here is 100% true except the keeping the knee power in part.

I was against this buff when it first came out. I was pretty vocal about it, and the backroom, at the time, told me I was a moron and buffed Wolf even more.

I'm still highly against this move since it was a completely manufactured buff that he doesn't need. The last thing Wolf needed was another killing option, and it does land constantly in his offensive game. I'm not calling for its removal; I just think it should be a move under evaluation from the WBR.

If you think his recovery is bad, you fail at this character.

:bandit:

PS - DD, don't bother flaming my post. I already ignore everything you say anyway.

my, my. it seems you have felt my pain your not calling for its removal but you are against it... just say its a gay move they did

 

[Alphatron]

While Mario is supposed to come off as the balanced character, Kirby seems to do the job better.

Either way, Mario is still good.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

add more hitstun. that will defiantly fix it. if you are hit when you have a high percent if it doesnt kill you have to wait for them to come back to try again. when you are 150% you should be dead by now. with the little hitstun now, people just get hit barley go anywhere then easily recover. but i dont think thats something that should even be "fixed" i think we should leave some room so project m will be a different game then brawl+

No.

We tried increased hitstun in the past. It was known as RC1, and with a few exceptions, it was viewed as a collosal failure.*

Increasing hitstun wouldn't necessarily help the problem at all because hitstun doesn't dictate how far you travel when hit; that's base knockback and knockback growth among other factors (well, I suppose people would be dying 1 or 2 percent sooner due to the inability to act. But that's not nearly enough to rectify the situation). All increased hitstun would accomplish is making you get hit by killing moves in such a way that we don't want to pursue (super guaranteed combos).

You'd still die at the same percents anyway. There'd just be nothing you could do to avoid inevitable death.

 

[Wind Owl]

All increased knockback would accomplish is making you get hit by killing moves in such a way that we don't want to pursue (super guaranteed combos).

Hitstun.

Spoiler

Character minimums are stupid.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Hitstun.

Spoiler

Character minimums are stupid.

Super fail

Spoiler

*goes back to fix it*

 

[cobaltblue]

1. because I sometimes do it right as they snap.

2. Its the principal of it. Sonic shoulent get a get out of jail free card on mario. How many people fear fighting a mario? ever? I'm not talking about boss. (who seems to play marios better half more in + anyway)

Marios not Dan hibiki. Hes not a joke char. Some people seriously play him. His moves should never just Not work on some chars.

You know what I get when I play against someone with mario? "LOL mario?" or some **** about needing to pick up luigi or shiek. I do rock people now and again if they are a gimpable char...

The point is look into mario some more... Gitches an all. I know I have been in psa looking for fixes.

The sonic v mario match up right now is about even or slightly in Mario's favor due to his ability to shut down sonic's ground approaches. Still, I'm with the other guy who says kirby does a better job of being the middleman of the game than Mario. Mainly because for a character who is suppose to be average, Mario's recovery is complete and utter garbage. I have a hard time thinking of any character that has a harder time getting to the edge than him.

I'm going to say this as bluntly as possible...

Homing attack is one of the worst moves in the game. You can see it coming a mile away and unless you are using in the way Cobalt already described to you, you should never, ever be pressing that button.

"Fixing" it would be disabling the attack from being used.

I feel better now...

You say that now, but one day you will fall victim to a point blank HA gimping you on recovery and rule the day you mocked the HA.

And on a similar note think you could post some more B+ Zelda tips in her character thread? I'm really hurting on defense/approach options against characters with multiple jumps in the air.

i see people get to speak... so why is it wolf gets even more killing power but characters that can barely make it COUGHsonicCOUGH cant get decent killing potential. wolf gets a CF knee for a recovery and sonic is still making ends meat. please fix sonics homing attack

Thats the world of Sonic. You knew when you decided to main him that he'd require more skill, precision, and dedication than the rest of the cast to be deadly with but he has the tools to do it.

You can still join the Marths mains though and their quest for the ezmode fixed fair.

 

[GHNeko]

dude, Lucas is like the most similar character to his vBrawl counterpart

Olimar.

@Mario Talk: He's a **** good character imo. He just sucks in important categories such as Recovering and Range/Priority. :/

But Range/Priority can be worked around with player skill. Recovery...not so much. But oh well.

He's more or less one of the "player mirror" characters in the game, except that he's a "player camera"

You know the saying, The camera always adds 10 lbs. :3

 

[matt4300]

Olimar.

@Mario Talk: He's a good**** character imo. He just sucks in important categories such as Recovering and Range/Priority. :/

But Range/Priority can be worked around with player skill. Recovery...not so much. But oh well.

He's more or less one of the "player mirror" characters in the game, except that he's a "player camera"

You know the saying, The camera always adds 10 lbs. :3

Whoa whoa whoa now... I never said he wasent good... I was bringing up the fact that there were 2 threads of people writeing books on Fair, and hardly any time has been given to such a big glitch on mario.. Just blatant bias.I can only think of 3 or 4 people that play mario + let alone help balance him... Almost all if not all of it was done personally by cape. (who did a great job makeing him fun and giveing him so many options)

Though I will admit I do think he will be lowteir for sure (someone has to be) not many chars have as many hard weaknesses as him without being really good in other areas. Hes average at just about everything but gimping (wich is why this glitch needs fixing) on top of that he has Range, priority, damage (yes damage) recovery, and killing ( not nearly as bad as he used to be at it) Issues. He gets by with a nice projectile, gimps, and really quick moves. Though some chars have a nice projectile, really quick moves, gimps, and few to none of the above problems... Which makes you wonder why anyone would risk it with mario when moneys on the line?

 

[V-K]

I played B+ 6.0 a bit and I must say it´s a really great work. But there are still some things I don´t like:

- Toon Link Dair is overpowered because of almost no lag
- Sonic has still no real finishers
- Olimars Fsmash is still overpowered
- Links Fair is bad

Wel just my opinion.

 

[matt4300]

I played B+ 6.0 a bit and I must say it´s a really great work. But there are still some things I don´t like:

- Toon Link Dair is overpowered because of almost no lag
- Sonic has still no real finishers
- Olimars Fsmash is still overpowered
- Links Fair is bad

Wel just my opinion.

- Yehh... whatcha gonna do though?

There was a point nearing his completion in + where a few others an I were saying WTF at teh tlink boards... They took away some of the totally ridiculous buffs some mains (viet!) had in there pacs. Don't think the endlag speed up or the larger push got in... might have though.

- Fsmash, gimp, uair off the top

Similar to Mario... Your gonna need to gimp. Im sure you have heard all that before, but you should also expect it as a sonic player.

- Im sure hes gonna get some kinda nerf when people actually start playing him later.

There are a few things besides fsmash about olimar that just scream Nerf me.. Kinda like pikachu... I'm still holding out hope man.

- **** you.... (that fsmash was my idea... )

This was one of the link brigade's (Shadic, zxeon, SP, Me, ehhh roughly lol) first buffs to him. His first being Semi spike spin attack.
How are you using it? Its pretty versatile compared to his old hit it and quit it Fair... It also has more kill power on the second hit, But just like most of links moves your gonna have to commit to it if you use it. Which means your probley gonna get punished if you miss, or hit on shields. Thats link for ya.

 

[VietGeek]

Endlag speed-up? Rofl and I thought I was good at pulling sh*t out of my ***. Because 50% ALR just wasn't enough for even the most power-hungry individuals. Rest assured Toon Link mains, it was the fact that Down-Air was just too laggy (20 frame landing lag OMFG) that we deemed the move severely flawed in its design.

But no, neither proposed buff made it in. Or if it did, it was no longer my doing.

Most TLs will try to abuse D-Air though. Shielding it is futile (shield + Links' dair = No), instead try dash-canceling moves or spotdodge react, or even pivot grab. The wind only sends you far if you have momentum. So if you have momentum toward Toon Link, you receive significantly less "knockback" from the wind.

And yes, when Toon Link has more players on him, I'm sure he's due for some surprise at some point. Ah, but when is the question. ^_^


Oh yeah, Wolf's side-B.

Keep the hitbox attached to his body at the current level. The hitbox not attached to his body (the weaker side hits in vB) were ALSO given the same stats as the "sweetspot." Being largely disjointed, this is considered somewhat ridiculous. Simply make the disjoint flub weaker. Instead of the approx. 77-78% knee, go for say, 70-72%.

 

[Seris]

Regarding the Death bounce problem, does anyone know if it is related to the game physics/stage ledge or to the specific character recoveries?

 

[Bandit]

And on a similar note think you could post some more B+ Zelda tips in her character thread? I'm really hurting on defense/approach options against characters with multiple jumps in the air.

If you send me a PM of the characters you are having a problem with, I'll see what I can do to help out (I may have videos depending on the character). This weekend will probably be when I get to the Zelda+ thread to start posting the 6.0 guide.

-----

On a side note, whenever someone plays sonic and lands a HA, everyone just starts laughing at the guy who got hit.

 

[The Cape]

- Toon Link Dair is overpowered because of almost no lag

This made me chuckle since it has 30 frames landing lag (highest aerial in the game).

 

[ValTroX]

Now that you mention Link's Fair, I've been holding that for a long long time. It should be made like melee(strong first hit and weak second hit). I hold it because no one uses Link anyways, but it gives him a good horizontal killing move since landing the second hit is kinda troublesome.

 

[The Cape]

Now that you mention Link's Fair, I've been holding that for a long long time. It should be made like melee(strong first hit and weak second hit). I hold it because no one uses Link anyways, but it gives him a good horizontal killing move since landing the second hit is kinda troublesome.

See I agree with this as it gives Link actual sheild pressure and spacing with it.

Link mains threw a **** fit about it (surprise surprise) and it got reverted. Oh well, his fair can continue to suck on stage then.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

Link mains threw a **** fit about it (surprise surprise) and it got reverted. Oh well, his fair can continue to suck on stage then.

WTF I totally missed that. What was the reasoning behind it anyway? :/

 

[Roxas215]

I kinda play mario+ but all his disadvantages really makes me not want to play him. What ghneko said is true. His flaws can be countered by player skill. But his lack of recovery is just mind boggling. I should have some mario+ vids up soon if i can get chibo or someone to record them for me.

 

[GHNeko]

I personally just wish Dair wouldnt be so easy for opponents to get out. It's like...

SH Dair. Success! Okay. Let's combo from thi....oh what the ****? They SDI'd out...AGAIN!?

Proceed to be punished or put in a disadvantaged position.

That and more momentum in air. I can't count the amount of times I try to follow up with an aerial that I know I have enough frame advantage for, but can't because Mario is too slow.

I wish Throw > KOBE was 100% legit.

 

[Roxas215]

I personally just wish Dair wouldnt be so easy for opponents to get out. It's like...

SH Dair. Success! Okay. Let's combo from thi....oh what the ****? They SDI'd out...AGAIN!?

Proceed to be punished or put in a disadvantaged position.

That and more momentum in air. I can't count the amount of times I try to follow up with an aerial that I know I have enough frame advantage for, but can't because Mario is too slow.

I wish Throw > KOBE was 100% legit.

Can't dair combo into well dair?

And lol at throw>KOBE

 

[GHNeko]

Dair is a super good combo tool that combos into so many moves, its just that sometimes, characters nautrally just fall out of dair or sometimes when you predict it coming, you can SDI out of it without too much difficulty, and because of the lack of KB/Stun on the move before final hit, you're put in a disadvantaged position and can be punished because you're stuck committing to the rest of the move and they're already out of it and out of stun.

It's just one of those things that make you go :|

And Throw > KOBE is my favorite combo with mario atm. Because it's just so god **** amazing and because I'm a doc second in Melee.

 

[Daakun]

I use Link's shff fair for miiindgaaames.
They expect to get knocked away horizontally so they get their DI ready, instead I land a dair, dsmash, etc.
Heck, it combos into itself if your opponent expects the second hit.

 

[Revven]

Think of Mario's Dair as how Pikachu's Dsmash is incredibly easy to SDI on reaction in vBrawl and only take 6%. It's worse than that though because you can even just get out subconsciously, without realizing you SDI'd.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Falco400, then shouldn't Mario's Dair be tweaked a little? And, Neko, what the hell is KOBE? I mained Doc in Melee and I can't tell, for the life of me, what the hell that stands for.

Also, why does following a fireball into a Fair seem so bad in +? I used to pill -> Fair with Doc all the time. Hell, I even Fthrow -> Fair'd sometimes, and it'd work! And, of course, Dthrow -> Fair. But, now that I think of it, how is B+ Mario's Dthrow -> Fair? Does it work, or even kill, for that matter?

 

[GHNeko]

Throw > KOBE is a refernce to a post Mango made about Doc in Melee. Which is basically a Dthrow > Fair kill combo.

Fireball to Fair doesnt work that well because of the stun that fireball affords vs the options the victim has in air, imo.

Mario's Dthrow gets the job done. What's good about it is that when you mix it up with uthrow, both throws benefit from the mix up because they both have different forms of DI needed to minimize mario's follow up. But the forms are so different that good DI on one throw is bad DI on the other.

Dthrow > KOBE is really good when they do anything other than perfect DI. And even then, at certain percents, Dthrow > KOBE can manage to work, though with perfect DI, Dthrow > KOBE success sometimes ends before the percents of which Doc Fair can KO at.

 

[matt4300]

Falco400, then shouldn't Mario's Dair be tweaked a little? And, Neko, what the hell is KOBE? I mained Doc in Melee and I can't tell, for the life of me, what the hell that stands for.

Also, why does following a fireball into a Fair seem so bad in +? I used to pill -> Fair with Doc all the time. Hell, I even Fthrow -> Fair'd sometimes, and it'd work! And, of course, Dthrow -> Fair. But, now that I think of it, how is B+ Mario's Dthrow -> Fair? Does it work, or even kill, for that matter?

No more char changes means mario will remain pretty useless tourney wise. (better pick a stage you wont have to recovery in) Hes still **** fun otherwise. As long as you know your not gonna have to fight someone with a good recovery or good range on there attacks. You can go mario and have a chance.

I think Kobe is Dthrow Fair, And no there are only a few chars it works on in 6.0, but not at kill percents (wich is 115-lights 140-heavys)

Fireball Fair is still possible but you gotta be **** near perfect ... There is very little stun on fireballz... They are about like falcos lazer stun.. Cept mario isent nearly as fast as falco, and can't fast fall them.T_T

New Fthrow is the ****. So good at setting up gimps, and pretty good for tech chases.

 

[GHNeko]

Mario? Useless tourney wise?

u bes be trollin.

He's more than capable of getting far in a tourney alone.

 

[PKNintendo]

Mario has always been tourney viable, just most of the players here never used him lol.

It's like that one mod (Umbreon) proclaiming that Wario sucked and that Ike was better than him. LOL

 

[matt4300]

Mario? Useless tourney wise?

u bes be trollin.

He's more than capable of getting far in a tourney alone.

Really neko. I hate to admit it. But I thought that at first. Playing a char with range/recovery/killing weaknesses is a REALLY bad idea when everyone is trying just as hard as you to win. Just the recovery weakness will easily **** you over before you get far. You fight a char like lucario/marth/ jiggz (big fan favorites) and your done. Marth is the one you have the best chance on.. You better Gimp him or your done though.

You wont go far useing solo mario. I would love to be proved wrong, But I dought anyone has the ballz to throw there money away like that. You are just gambleing when you pick him. Not to say he doenst have some good matchups like falcon, Shiek, Sonic, Link. But luigi takes them all down much harder.

 

[GHNeko]

Mario doesn't have any killing weaknesses. And his range weakness are worked around with skill.

I mean, I used to ***** about his range, but I got better and I utilize his tools a lot more throughly. And what do I have to show for that? I consistently get in my opponents face with little fear and minimal opportunities for punishment.

A mario that is consistantly on the ground and in the air. In your face or in your face 3 miles away. Never giving you room to breath, and when he does, he makes you dance to his beat. Good mario. Switching up between multiple playstyles and staying comfortable and efficient is how he should play.

And that style of play profits extremely well, even against his bad match ups.

I really only lose to Falco and D3, with Falcon being nothing than a personal match up issue rather than a character match up issue. D3 and GaW is the only thing Mario should be afraid of. GaW can be dealt with by abusing fluud and just being really patient, and now with the D3 nerfs in place, there is generally nothing Mario should fear. Not MK. Not D3. Not Falco. Not Marth. Not GaW. No one.

He has the tools and the only thing that keeps him from success is the player's inability to carry mario with the extra weight his recovery adds on to the player.

 

[Roxas215]

I have a personal matchup problem with falcon as well with mario. But then again i main peach and peach ***** falcon so i shouldn't be playing falcon with mario anyway lol.

 

[Shadic]

Link mains threw a **** fit about it (surprise surprise) and it got reverted. Oh well, his fair can continue to suck on stage then.

Not all of us, though. Hell, I proposed the change first right after PSA came out and I made some test sets.

Actually what I wanted was the Fair to work more like the Smash64 incarnation, where it was (IMO) the best.

 

[smashmaniac2008]

Is giantpunes updatifier up to date?

 

[V-K]

@Sonic
Yes he can gimp pretty good actually. But if you play chars with very good recovery (for example TL) then sometimes you have to bring your opponent near to 200% to finish him.
The thing I don´t really like is that Sonic is a fast character like Falcon, but weaker.

This made me chuckle since it has 30 frames landing lag (highest aerial in the game).

It still has some kind of wind that pushes you away and doesn´t really let you punish it unless you do the ground dodge.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Sonic
Yes he can gimp pretty good actually. But if you play chars with very good recovery (for example TL) then sometimes you have to bring your opponent near to 200% to finish him.
The thing I don´t really like is that Sonic is a fast character like Falcon, but weaker.

You're killing the wrong way <_<. Sonic kills most characters off the top by comboing into up B->uair or up B->bair.

Also, f-smash may be weak, but it's also very, very safe. It's prettydisjointed (seriously, just try beating moves with it, you'll be suprised how many attacks it goes through) has very little end lag, and has A LOT of range. Combine that with Sonic's good initial dash for pivoting and you've got a very annoying move.

Also...TL's is not hard for Sonic to edgeguard <_<. Sweetspot dair off stage kinda wrecks him. Send him low off stage with d-throw. If he's recoverying high, harrass him with uairs (TL is pretty light and uair->up B uair is a really good kill combo.


I'm pretty satisfied with Sonic atm.