Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

[Veril]

Powershielding being unaffected by the shieldstun code is fine. If powershielding followed the same mechanism in B+ as it did in melee (based on shield input frame rather than shield appearance frame), it would be perfect.


Off topic: Anytime I feel frustrated with anything here I just go read the newest MK-ban-argument thread. So glad we don't have to deal with that.

Powershielding already has advantages. You don't take shield damage, you don't take knockback, and you can choose any attack (even B moves) out of shield instead of being restricted to Up Smash, Up B and Grab.

Dropping a powershield < jumping out of a powershield. Same as with a normal shield. Its just that the difference is much less perceptible.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Powershields are supposed to have the same shield stun was normal shielding.

This is only in Melee.

Perfect shields in any iteration of Brawl are very powerful because they reduce shield stun and pushback to near nothing regardless of the strength of the blow, in addition to allowing IASA on shield release. The Melee equivalent did not lower shield stun compared to normal hard shielding, it only allowed IASA on shield release.

Even with a 1 frame window in +, it's fairly easy to get perfect shields because it can be buffered unlike Melee, and the attack can hit any part of your shield to work, not an inner layer of it. You can easily force a perfect shield to happen crouching against a lingering hitbox that doesn't reach low enough to hit you, then shielding. This is easily observed against projectiles that pass over your head when crouching as shielding is a 1 frame action.

 

[Doval]

Perfect shields in any iteration of Brawl are very powerful because they reduce shield stun and pushback to near nothing regardless of the strength of the blow, in addition to allowing IASA on shield release. The Melee equivalent did not lower shield stun compared to normal hard shielding, it only allowed IASA on shield release.

This is not true; use the debug pause code on vBrawl and you'll find that powershielding any hit incurs the same hit lag + shield stun as normal shielding. The only circumstance in which the numbers won't match is if you just narrowly miss the PS window. Characters are guaranteed to hold shield for a minimum number of frames - if a given character holds shield for a minimum of 7 frames, and you get hit on frame 5, you miss the powershield and still have to wait an extra 2 frames after your stun wears off.

Dropping a powershield < jumping out of a powershield.

Why's that? If you jump you have those 3-5 frames of jump start-up + the dead frame if you're not using buffer + the aerial's start-up. If you drop a powershield you've only got the ground move's start-up. If you have a standard frame 2 jab you can hit the opponent 2 frames after coming out of shield stun (ZSS is crazier with her 1 frame jab and 3 frame uptilt.) I don't think there's any aerial that hits in less than 3 frames, so you're looking at a minimum of 6 frames to hit the opponent out of a jump. You could easily do a tilt in the same amount of time.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

My mistake, was overly thinking in B+.

Where perfect shields can almost be overpowered when you get them because they're not affected by the shield stun code, and how relatively easy they are to get.

 

[Jam23]

I havent read a lot of this topic but I have a small little problem with Fox.

I love everything about him so far except for one thing.... I remember in the 5.0 version fox was able to jab-cancel to a grab which (to me) added a lot of depth in his play style. I wish this would return for the final version.

 

[Alphatron]

I'm all up for a fix to the perfect shields. In every match I've ever had, not once have I not gotten an accidental power shield by just holding the shield button and buffering my shield to come up as soon as my opponent attacks. It's not necessarily easy to do, but I would much rather have control over it than have it happen more often due to an acciedent.

To the above post, you'll be seeing very few changes from this point on, especially changes to characters unless they meet a very specific criteria.

 

[leafgreen386]

There's nothing wrong with shieldstabbing right now. A fix to PSing is long overdue, though. Remove buffered PSing and make it give the same shieldstun as normal shielding, then raise the window back up to 2 frames. It's just... a matter of actually... coding it.

 

[Bandit]

Why would you want it to give the same shield stun as normal shielding? At that point, there is almost no advantage other than no pushback to power shielding.

 

[Rudra]

Why would you want it to give the same shield stun as normal shielding? At that point, there is almost no advantage other than no pushback to power shielding.

You still take no shield damage and have the option of performing any move after a PS though.

 

[Bandit]

Okay, add no shield damage to no push back, but you have the option of performing any move after regular shield. I have been stuck in shield stun where moves keep getting poured on and I actually let go of the controller only to stay in shield. Players do use moves that create frame advantage on shield hit which was why power shielding is used. If you power shield, you get the advantage. Adding the same stun as normal shielding would negate that advantage.

 

[goodoldganon]

I agree with Bandit. Placing same stun on powershields as normal shields seems counter intuitive to the point of a PS. The point of timing a PS is to get the frame advantage. The ability to not get pushed back. no damage, and any more out of shield drop is hardly worthwhile for a PS in my opinion.

 

[Doval]

but you have the option of performing any move after regular shield

Not quite. Your only options directly out of shield are grab, jump, or jump-canceled up-smash/up-B. Anything else, you'll have to wait an extra 7 frames (about twice as much in Melee) while your shield drops, killing your frame advantage if you had one. When you powershield, you can attack during those 7 frames, which means you can do, say, an up-tilt as early as you're allowed to grab, and 7 frames earlier than you would normal shielding.

The point of timing a PS is to get the frame advantage.

That's only ever been the point in Brawl+, because it never worked that way before.

I'll be honest: it may or may not be game-breaking. I'm not sure what the ALR is set to as of the latest build. However, the frame advantage wasn't an intentional buff to powershielding; it's a bug in the game. If we were to leave it as a deliberate game mechanic, we should at least have a way to control the frame advantage it gives so it's not set to some arbitrary value. The stun difference between vBrawl and Brawl+ is huge; the stun difference between a shielded hit and a powershielded hit right now can go up to 10 frames on top of being able to do anything out of shield. For instance Samus can counter a short hopped Mario f-air with a charged shot out of a power shield.

And even then, such a mechanic should in my opinion only be in place if the problems with how powershields trigger are fixed. Otherwise, we're forced to leave the window impractically small to offset how easy they are to do and it becomes a moot point since no one's crazy enough to go for frame-perfect blocking.

 

[Veril]

The lowered block advantage on powershield has been a part of B+ since its inception. Having powershielding actually be dependent on the input frame for shield would shift it towards being more skill dependent. Anyone who has to break through projectile spam is very aware of the advantages of powershielding, and I'd like for that to remain intact.

The combination of shield canceled dashes and powershielding is an integral part of dealing with projectile spam, and altering powershieldstun would strengthen something that I absolutely have no intention of improving.

 

[Bandit]

*Ignore* *Ninja'd* Veril posts better than I do

 

[Veril]

Where did any of this powershield talk even come from? It's a mechanic that actually works so why "fix" it?

The only problem with powershielding is having random powershields arising from buffering shield during a move. This could be fixed if powershielding was based on the input frame rather than the frame the shield appears on. That's the only alteration that could be done without physically altering powershields + it would have no real impact on balance because nothing about intentional powershielding would be altered. No other powershield change is really feasible.

 

[Doval]

@Veril: Fixing the powershield window wouldn't affect defense against projectiles in any way. Fixing the window simply prevents "buffered" or accidental powershields, which don't come into play when your character is free to act at any time, like when you're trying to close the gap between you and your opponents. It's also dubious that removing the frame advantage would have a meaningful impact on being able to approach projectile spammers, because all spammable projectiles have a low % and thus low shield stun to begin with. The difference would be 5-6 frames. Plus, if Project M's code for returning the reflect effect on powershields works, then that's a big enough advantage to the powershielder.

it would have no real impact on balance because nothing about intentional powershielding would be altered.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the high frequency of accidental powershields is the main reason that the window of opportunity got nerfed down to 1 frame when it used to be 4 in Melee and vBrawl.

 

[Bandit]

Removing the advantage of PS is not necessarily against spammy projectiles. It is for punishing aerial approaches, smashes and other moves that gain a hit advantage when they hit someone's shield. You are thinking too narrowly about the impact of the frame advantage.

 

[Veril]

@Veril: Fixing the powershield window wouldn't affect defense against projectiles in any way.

I specified that changing powershielding to be based on the input frame rather than the shield appearance frame was something I supported. I'm not completely sure what you're even arguing at this point...

Powershielding has no problem other than that it happens exactly when it shouldn't. Being one frame over the window to punish lag or whatever shouldn't be innately worse than being 2 frames off. That is the only true issue. You can't argue that a lowered frame advantage on block against a projectile is insignificant. Well, you can, but I do not accept it.

 

[Doval]

It is for punishing aerial approaches, smashes and other moves that gain a hit advantage when they hit someone's shield.

Isn't that the entire point of these moves? To be safe? Having safe options encourages offence instead of camping.

I specified that changing powershielding to be based on the input frame rather than the shield appearance frame was something I supported. I'm not completely sure what you're even arguing at this point...

My bad. I read one of your posts too quickly.

Being one frame over the window to punish lag or whatever shouldn't be innately worse than being 2 frames off. That is the only true issue.

What do you mean by this?

 

[Bandit]

They are safe unless someone power shields. This is why spacing is still very important in offense. If you take that away, people would blindly charge forward with little remorse.

No defense is just as bad as no offense.

 

[Doval]

This is why spacing is still very important in offense. If you take that away, people would blindly charge forward with little remorse.

How would spacing help against a powershield? The opponent's not going to move, you're going to continue to move closer to him until you land, the opponent has frame advantage, and he can still hit you if you land behind him. You would need an attack with more range than all of the opponent's grounded attacks, or a character that can reverse direction in mid-air before landing like Wario, Squirtle or Jigglypuff.

 

[Veril]

Being one frame over the window to punish lag or whatever shouldn't be innately worse than being 2 frames off. That is the only true issue.

What do you mean by this?

If you are attempting to punish a whiffed move, and you are 1 frame off when a person buffers a shield, they will powershield, where as if you were 2 frames off you would have the typical blockstun. The fact that actually having better timing is worse makes no sense to me.

 

[Doval]

Oh, that. Yes, I agree.

 

[stingers]

veril your sig is hilarious

 

[MK26]

my opponents were in pk fire death percents at 175%, bro

lrn2lucas

 

[ForteEscape]

is it just me, or is it impossible for ganon to ledgehop?

 

[Revven]

He can ledgehop, you just need to time it right.

 

[Cia]

does anyone know what's going on with the chat on the b+ site? It just says "connecting to server" but nothing ever happens..

 

[omegablackmage]

ledge hopping with ganon becomes a lot easier when you do an aerial with it for some reason.

 

[Roxas215]

does anyone know what's going on with the chat on the b+ site? It just says "connecting to server" but nothing ever happens..

Yea whats going on with the chat?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

not sure if this was on purpose or if anyone pointed it out before bit Ness's neutral a combo does not work, i was playing a friend i was bowser standing in neutral position and my friend who was playing ness tried his neutral a combo and i was able to jab him before his last hit came out, and it was not a one time thing this repeated multiple times.

 

[Isatis]

Might be worth trying http://gamesurge.net/chat/BrawlPlus

Not even sure what's going on because I can connect fine, but I use Trillian Astra for IRC, not Mibbit.

 

[CountKaiser]

not sure if this was on purpose or if anyone pointed it out before bit Ness's neutral a combo does not work, i was playing a friend i was bowser standing in neutral position and my friend who was playing ness tried his neutral a combo and i was able to jab him before his last hit came out, and it was not a one time thing this repeated multiple times.

To be honest, I knew about this, but didn't think it to be a huge problem.

But if you could stop the jab combo consistently then it's worse than I thought.

Nothing a small KB increase can't fix.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

^yea it happened a lot and started to annoying my friend a good deal, i am sure he would appreciate the change.

 

[Alphatron]

Good to know the jab problem wasn't just me. Yeah, Ness' jab can be consistently interrupted or blocked in between the 2nd and last hits. I wouldn't mind so much if he had awesome jab cancel options, but...

 

[Dark Sonic]

Same thing happens to Sonic.

However for him it's more of a "if you didn't start the jab while pretty much INSIDE them then the second hit won't reach"

Don't know if that's worth a fix or not, but Sonic's jab 1 isn't exactly stellar in the first place (it doesn't give a frame advantage at all <_<. I've been jabbed back after doing a single jab and trying to shield)

Maybe I just won't use bad jabs <_<

 

[cobaltblue]

Jab can't combo for crap as sonic. I've worked it in as more of a breathing room tool as it comes out faster than his tilts or smashes and allows for a retreat.

 

[Veril]

Sonic's jab has a terrible design. Having a jab combo that doesn't "combo" even without DI cause the second and first jabs are in the wrong order... so dumb. Switching the first and second jabs would fix that but decrease the initial jab range. This isn't quite as bad as his up-smash glitch, but its sloppy as h***.

Convince me... in the Sonic thread plz. Gogogo!

 

[ChronicleX]

Convince me... in the Sonic thread plz. Gogogo!

Sonics poke with tilts not a single neutral A. That is the only reason you need.

 

[PKNintendo]

What's the Upsmash glitch?