Brawl+ character balance discussion

[Dark Sonic]

please try to stick to the guidelines people, SA is probably not even possible without a major amount of codelines

Yeah I suppose. At first, I was just defending the SA mechanic in general...but I got a bit carried away.

 

[cobaltblue]

Kupa I just wanted to reply to an earlier post about you comparing Zss to Link. Zss has a far better z-air for recovery that has more range. Link's on the other hand is more comprable to a full pikmin olimar.

 

[shanus]

Kupa I just wanted to reply to an earlier post about you comparing Zss to Link. Zss has a far better z-air for recovery that has more range. Link's on the other hand is more comprable to a full pikmin olimar.

If Links Zair was the range of a full pikmin olimar that would be mammoth.

 

[kupo15]

Dark sonic

I guess the whole SA thing is really a matter of opinion and that its hard to really back up either side with solid proof. IMO its a small thing that takes away from the game especially SA on the moves that don't need it but thats just me.

Kupa I just wanted to reply to an earlier post about you comparing Zss to Link. Zss has a far better z-air for recovery that has more range. Link's on the other hand is more comprable to a full pikmin olimar.

Well I mean ZSS has some tricks to come back with but she can't up b to the ledge and fend off ppl at the same time as link. But its whatever

 

[Nakamaru]

Hey guys, within the whole balancing issue. What are the ideas to nerf sheik's f-tilt? Also what properties of moves can you actually change?

 

[Deleted member]

first post people

 

[GameSystem]

Ganon up tilt needs to kill at like 27% like it did in Melee. In brawl people survive it past 100%. Same with Warlock Punch. With such a huge start up, and crap range/priority, it should be stronger. Falcon punch should kill sooner. Make all of Bowser's moves do 2x damage.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Double damage for Bowser?

one Fsmash by Bowser= 66%

well ****

People shoult try to find cost-effective (that use few lines) ways to improve a characters. For example, how about shortening the duration of Link's bombs, so that he could bomb-jump reliably? It's a value modification (two lines at most) and gives his recovery a lot more freedom.

 

[Veril]

1. fix the range on snakes tilts so they don't look like he has some magical force field emanating from his boot. They look f***ing stupid in addition to being stupidly broken.
2. Reduce the priority and increase the cooldown lag for mach tornado. Reduce the knockback of shuttle loop.
3. Give Jiggs back the melee rest. Increase the range and speed of her d-tilt (god that move sucks).
4. fix the grab-release disadvantage of Lucas and Ness.
5. decrease the damage and knockback of GW's smashes.

 

[Almas]

copy/pasted:

I'd like to comment from a hacker's viewpoint.

We don't know the exact extent of what can or cannot be done efficiently with codespace. But some of the requests y'all are coming up with seem a bit excessive.

The easiest things to change will be the knockback (base and growth) of the move and the damage linked to it.

It is probably possible to change the ENTIRE animation speed. Increasing lag at the start or end is very likely to be extremely tricky.

What is NOT possible is hitbox modification. Changing a hitbox in any way will almost certainly require excessive lines of code. This includes the frame it comes out (with the exception of speeding up the entire animation). Priority is a combination of many factors - the most important of these is hitboxes. So changing priority is similarly unlikely. If y'all are extremely lucky, the 'power rating' of an attack is stored as a variable, which means we might be able to change. This would only affect when moves 'clink'.

Anything that doesn't fall in these guidelines is probably possible, but hard to achieve. For example, a suggestion for weakening MK's Tornado was to stop him from being able to go upwards during it. The solution would be roundabout, but achievable. That said, it is one of few methods that seems like it would actually balance out the move somewhat.

Bear in mind through all these recommended changes that we are still working against a line limit. Also, I'd like to state a personal view: that the aim of all of these changes (apart from balancing characters) should be to make every move viable in atleast some situations. We should also strive to reduce hitstun to as low a level as possible while still maintaining combos for every character (with the exception of the super-slows).

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I don't think it is a good idea to talk about individual character balance until an Official Brawl+ Code List comes out. This way, we know how many lines of code remaining we have to work with.

 

[Shadic]

We're most just getting ideas. A lot of buffs and nerfs aren't going to depend on exact values for the codes. (Hello Metaknight, Link, Bowser.)

 

[Nakamaru]

An idea on sheik's f-tilt. Give it more knock back. No so much so that they are sent flying, but enough so it can't link into itself. Or even just so it wont link at higher %s like 50 or above.

This way its kind of like a pseudo chain grab, but still not able to take people 0-death with no problem.

 

[leafgreen386]

An idea on sheik's f-tilt. Give it more knock back. No so much so that they are sent flying, but enough so it can't link into itself. Or even just so it wont link at higher %s like 50 or above.

This way its kind of like a pseudo chain grab, but still not able to take people 0-death with no problem.

*cough* we're already doing this *cough*

We're bumping up the base knockback on the move so that it sends you into the tumble sooner (allowing DI and teching) but otherwise retains most of its same properties.

 

[Nakamaru]

*cough* we're already doing this *cough*

Sorry. : /

Since specifics aren't posted its kind of hard to know whats exactly going on.

 

[Rudra]

Hmm...

Squirtle: Make Water Gun have a little more push.

Ivysaur: I can't really think of anything for Ivy. The best I can think of is giving Razor Leaf an "energy" like property so that it can't be jabbed. (and that may not be workable)

Charizard: I'm not too sure if he really needs it, but maybe a Flamethrower Cancel? (Maybe Bowser could use it too.)

Meta Knight: Reduction in overall knockback (like having all of his moves stale as someone suggested)

Bowser: Faster UpB (like Leaf suggested), and maybe do more damage to make up for his inability to combo excessively. Like 1.3-1.5 more damage.

Ness/Lucas/Wario/ect: Fixed Grab Release

Samus: More knockback from power missiles/charge shot, and a special SH height.

That's all I can think of at the moment. =/

 

[Nakamaru]

One big problem with bowser is his recovery is momentum based. There may not be any way of fixing that without a ton of code, but giving him a slightly different gravity on his recovery might give him a slightly better up-b.

For samus charge blast. Instead of giving it more knockback. Just give it the +fresh bonus. Its perfectly fine otherwise IMO.

 

[GameSystem]

Double damage for Bowser?

one Fsmash by Bowser= 66%

Can you imagine how cool that would be? Well anyway, since all of bowser's move suck at comboing, it would make sense to have them all hit really hard since he can't follow up anyway. Not exactly 2x, but you know what I mean.

 

[hyperhopper]

Make wolfs blaster autocancel!

how do you usually cancel it
?

 

[Rudra]

how do you usually cancel it
?

It doesn't Auto Cancel lol. I think he meant that he wants it to opperate like Fox/Falco's do in that there's no landing lag after they use their SHL or SHDL.

 

[The Cape]

This is what I have found that I think may need to be considered if possible to fix.

Bowser:
Momentum Based Recovery needs fixed
Decrease stun received from moves
Up and B come out faster
Remove landing bounce from up and B
Forward B suicide always kills opponent first

Captain Falcon:
No stale and fresh on Falcon Punch

Diddy Kong:
Make bananas disappear faster

Ganondorf:
Increase short hop height a bit to allow for thunderstorming
Speed up jab a bit
Forward B suicide always kills opponent first

Jigglypuff:
Increase knockback on rest (No decay + fresh, and a bit more) (Kill around 70 on FD)

Link:
Longer range grapple
More height on up and B (remove increased gravity on Link)?
No stale + fresh for all moves

Mario:
Increase up and B range
Increase knockback on down and B

Marth:
Slow down forward B combo

Meta Knight:
Slow down down smash
Decrease Stun given by all moves

Pikachu:
Increase knockback on D throw (stops CG)
Samus:
Stronger Nair, bair, U smash, missiles, and Charge Blast

Sheik:
increase knockback on F tilt

Snake:
Make it easier to DI out of dair and nair

Sonic:
Stronger D smash

Toon Link:
Increase landing lag on down air

Yoshi:
Stronger D smash

 

[Shell]

Cape, I didn't know you played Brawl+. I'd love to see your Mario if you ever get a chance to capture some matches.

Right now KB or damage increases are the easiest tweaks to do. Adjusting animation speed is also possible, although probably more line intensive. We can also tweak the damage a character receives, as well as their dash speed / jump height. Anything else is still possible, but unlikely.

Also, many of us have moved to a code that eliminates move decay, but preserves a bonus for the first time a move is used.

 

[The Cape]

Cape, I didn't know you played Brawl+. I'd love to see your Mario if you ever get a chance to capture some matches.

Right now KB or damage increases are the easiest tweaks to do. Adjusting animation speed is also possible, although probably more line intensive. We can also tweak the damage a character receives, as well as their dash speed / jump height. Anything else is still possible, but unlikely.

Also, many of us have moved to a code that eliminates move decay, but preserves a bonus for the first time a move is used.

I just got into Mario.
I play mostly Wolf, Lucario, and Sonic right now.

I am using Kupo's set without the fresh bonus to the moves. Thats is what I based all of the things on. I think that with a few of these changes it may make the game alot better.

I have also been working on a tourney ruleset for Brawl+ if anyone is interested. With the stage freezes it actually makes more of the stages viable.

 

[Shell]

Well, your Melee Mario is epic, so I look forward to seeing what you can do with Mario+.

Also, I can't wait for the first tourney with a bit more finalized code set. I have a lot of respect for the Kishes for running the first Brawl+ tourney/side event, but when I look back on the code set available back then... well, it certainly left a lot to be desired.

Cape, I suggest you check out our new Brawl+ forums:

http://z13.invisionfree.com/BrawlPLUS_Brigade/index.php?

You should start a thread somewhere to generate discussion on Tourney settings.

 

[The Cape]

Well, your Melee Mario is epic, so I look forward to seeing what you can do with Mario+.

Also, I can't wait for the first tourney with a bit more finalized code set. I have a lot of respect for the Kishes for running the first Brawl+ tourney/side event, but when I look back on the code set available back then... well, it certainly left a lot to be desired.

Cape, I suggest you check out our new Brawl+ forums:

http://z13.invisionfree.com/BrawlPLUS_Brigade/index.php?

You should start a thread somewhere to generate discussion on Tourney settings.

Gonna join those forums. Sounds like a good time.

Should I post these balancing ideas there as well?

 

[Shell]

Yeah, just keep in mind what I said about what tweaks are more feasible. We have separate threads for most of the characters we're talking about so you'll have to organize your suggestions, but it's always good to get more input.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

If they can, all of Snake's spoken sound bytes should be changed to an enthusiastic and energetic "METAL GEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111". Or at least one of them. This may not have to do with character balance, but it would be freaking awesome. =D

On topic -
Give all of DDD's moves - including his dthrow - more knockback. That way he loses his chaingrab but becomes a character similar to DK in that he hits hard at good range, but is somewhat slow. DK is on the high side of the middle of the tier list so that would be a good direction to move in in terms of balance.

 

[The Cape]

If they can, all of Snake's spoken sound bytes should be changed to an enthusiastic and energetic "METAL GEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111". Or at least one of them. This may not have to do with character balance, but it would be freaking awesome. =D

On topic -
Give all of DDD's moves - including his dthrow - more knockback. That way he loses his chaingrab but becomes a character similar to DK in that he hits hard at good range, but is somewhat slow. DK is on the high side of the middle of the tier list so that would be a good direction to move in in terms of balance.

The increased gravity actually kills his CG as is. Everyone falls over from the down throw.
And with the L cancels he is actually very very fast.

 

[Revven]

The increased gravity actually kills his CG as is. Everyone falls over from the down throw.
And with the L cancels he is actually very very fast.

I'd like to add that Falco and DDD mostly lose their CGs due to hitstun and not the gravity but, the gravity helps.

 

[The Cape]

I'd like to add that Falco and DDD mostly lose their CGs due to hitstun and not the gravity but, the gravity helps.

I wasnt sure what caused it, but good call.

Most CGs seem to be gone. (Except Pika V.V) and I think Wolf wallshine is the only one that can infinite (if at all).

Fox shine knocks over.

 

[Eaode]

Falco's dthrow is still good though b/c it leads into dash attack and other stuff, which is a lot more exciting than chainthrow :D

 

[Plum]

I just love the machine Falcon has become.

He was made for a game with more hitstun. His priority issues are put on the backburner when he is stringing hits together, and actually landing knees for a change.
Still has counters though

 

[kupo15]

I just got into Mario.
I play mostly Wolf, Lucario, and Sonic right now.

I am using Kupo's set without the fresh bonus to the moves. Thats is what I based all of the things on. I think that with a few of these changes it may make the game alot better.

I have also been working on a tourney ruleset for Brawl+ if anyone is interested. With the stage freezes it actually makes more of the stages viable.

Sweet your on board with us! Your Mario is awesome btw! It seems like you are using an old code set of mine if you don't have the fresh bonus. I am going to updating my codeset soon as well

 

[MookieRah]

Still has counters though

He's still allergic to swords.

 

[goodoldganon]

Ugh...my friend's Ike was giving me hell with Falcon the other day...

 

[Shell]

Lucario is a potent counter.

 

[Phantom7]

Yeah, this game was too unbalanced. Everytime I fight my brothers, I'll pick Ganon, then they pick Marth or Fox, and I'll have to change my character to keep from losing.

 

[Shadic]

I've never played Squirtle until now, but is it just me, or is he amazing now?

Granted, I wasn't playing against the best person, but I was all over the stage stringing hits together like madness. I think I'm going to pick him up now.

 

[MuBa]

Do not give Snake any ground to air momentum boost or else he'll be ultra broken >_>

 

[Osi]

Took a while to go through the characters and see what I would change if anything at all. I left olimar/sonic off the list simply because I suck with them and never got good enough to add info for them on this list. I left off any changes I would do to jump/SH height to fix them, or changes I felt were minor/unneeded that I wouldn't use the space on.


Bowser-

• 
  [*]Up B has some added vertical

Falcon-

• Turning on another jump after down B would be nice. He is fine to me otherwise.
• Reverse knee hits

Diddy-

• 
  [*]Make the up B slide up walls.

DK-

• 
  [*]Add a little more vertical to the up B.

Falco-

• 
  [*]Fine to me.

Fox-

• 
  [*]Make the shine connect earlier so it can be used as a melee counter.

GW-

• 
  [*]Fine to me.

Ganon-

• 
  [*]See falcon.

IC-

• 
  [*]Fine to me.

Ike-

• 
  [*]No fixes for him I can think of.

Jiggly-

• 
  [*]The down B could use a little knockback added.

Dedede-

• 
  [*]Allow the canceled up B to grab faster.
  [*]More knockback on forward tilt.

Kirby-

• 
  [*]Fine to me.

Link-

• 
  [*]Up B can use a bit more vertical.

Lucario-

• 
  [*]Fine to me.

Lucas-

• 
  [*]Needs the grab release fixed.

Luigi-

• 
  [*]Fair could use a bit more priority.

Mario-

• 
  [*]Make fludd knockback stronger.

Marth-

• 
  [*]Fine to me.

MK-

• 
  [*]Less priority/range on side and up B
  [*]Lower down smash knockback
  [*]Less stun on the tornado

Ness-

• 
  [*]See lucas.

Peach-

• 
  [*]Higher knockback on forward smash
  [*]More knockback on forward throw
  [*]Allow the up B to grab backwards without canceling it

Pikachu-

• 
  [*]Fine to me.

Pit-

• 
  [*]Can't find any fixes I'd agree with... maybe give back a single jump after hit during up B?

PT-

• 
  [*]Allow Ivy to up B faster when someone on the edge blocks it. Maybe shorten the animation.

ROB-

• 
  [*]Fine to me.

Samus-

• 
  [*]More charged shot knockback
  [*]Allow air attacks after bouncing on a bomb
  [*]Make bombs explode on contact
  [*]Speed up the super missile animation or add a ground cancel to allow lower SH missiles

Sheik-

• 
  [*]Add more knockback to the nair
  [*]Add more knockback to the fair
  [*]Remove the ftilt lock

Snake-

• 
  [*]Fine to me.

Tlink-

• 
  [*]Fine to me.

Wario-

• 
  [*]See lucas.

Wolf-

• 
  [*]Add more grab range on the up B.

Yoshi-

• 
  [*]Allow him to jump out of shield, maybe trigger the break animation not to play when up is used.
  [*]More height on the second and third use of up B.

Zelda-

• 
  [*]Fine to me.

ZSS-

• 
  [*]Same up B fix as ivy
  [*]More nair knockback
  [*]Further sideways push on the down B jump