Brawl+ character balance discussion

[trojanpooh]

As an occasional user of Jigs I can honestly say that no buff to her rest is needed. It was too good in Melee and kept people from actually learning how to use her outside of spamming rest. Why should one character get a near OHKO that is instantaneous while everyone else has to rack up % the old fashion way?

 

[Shell]

You make it sound like there aren't any consequences for whiffing.

 

[Samuelson]

Jiggs is pretty amazing in Brawl+ without her rest that can kill at 10%. She doesn't need her old rest back imo.

I think that you should buff Lucario's grab range slightly.

 

[Swordplay]

Fins and I were working with Link in brawl+ today.

We don't think Link should fall any faster regularly, but we do think his FF could be just a tad faster.

I haven't tested this extensively but it seems to help.

 

[GirugaMarc]

Link needs better recovery

Snake needs nerf bigtime

 

[CountKaiser]

We fixed Link's recovery.

And Snake is already going to be nerfed.

 

[Eaode]

As an occasional user of Jigs I can honestly say that no buff to her rest is needed. It was too good in Melee and kept people from actually learning how to use her outside of spamming rest. Why should one character get a near OHKO that is instantaneous while everyone else has to rack up % the old fashion way?

Jiggs' rest is not nearly as broken as you make it sound. A character having such a drastically different mechanic-- the single riskiest and most rewarding move in the game-- is a great move for character diversity.

 

[Problem2]

Maybe it would be a good idea to update the original post with all the character specific changes that have been made. Also, putting discussion about how character balance is currently right now with each character.

In example, you could mention that Falco's double laser is really close to ground and the lag practically cancels allowing him to do things like double laser grab.

 

[Shell]

*shrug*

As it stands now, Luigi's Super Fire Punch offers substantially more reward for much less risk. Whiffing a rest = a stock; whiffing a SFP = taking an attack, possibly a combo.

Granted, that's not a completely fair comparison since Jiggz can combo into her rest in ways that Luigi can't combo into his SFP.

My opinion, for what it's worth due to my somewhat lacking Jiggz experience, is that right now she's balanced, but if we really want to get everyone up to "A" tier, we should buff the move a little, either with faster cooldown, or a slightly lower kill percent. But, many more experienced Jiggz players have said she doesn't need it, so what do I know.

 

[Oracle]

Just for reference, character balances should all be aiming towards high tier. We shouldn't be nerfing everyone above mid. Just slighter nerfs so their gameplay styles can stay the same.

 

[OmniOstrich]

I think that jiggs rest needs a buff. I feel like if i get a combo ending in resting my opponent at 35-50% it shouldn't end in me being KO'ed by a charged smash. Thats extremely backwards.

I also play Luigi, and Luigi CAN KO at the same percents, and his setups are much easier to pull off (nair>jab>uppercut).

I have actually KO'ed with rest, only to have the falcon player come back and KO me with a knee immediately afterward.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also are grab release combos intended or not? Lucario and Charizard have some really good pummels, especially without decay, and they are also free combos on a lot of characters.

Arrow gimping with Pit is stupid easy, and really good. At 15-25% a simple dtilt>uair>fair/bair or dthrow>uair>fair and then just rain the arrows on them a large portion of the cast stands no chance of getting back.

Snake's recovery is now really bad, if you get knocked offstage you basically HAVE to c4 jump, and it kills you at 100-110% anyways. I haven't tested everyone but im thinking about it now and realizing that a lot of characters probably have similiar issues, except that snake is a heavy, removing his ability to live to higher %s makes a lot bigger difference than for other characters.

I KO'ed bowser off the top with Whorenado after a series of uairs at 75% idk what the intent of lower vertical height was to stop this particular tactic or not but just so you know its very doable.

 

[Problem2]

I don't understand why people don't want Jigglypuff's rest buffed. At the strength it is now, I never see anyone try and use it when there are much better tactics when it reaches KO percents.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

have you seen how strong jigglys fair is

 

[Almas]

The reason why many people think Jigglypuff's rest doesn't need a buff is because Jigglypuff doesn't need a buff.

 

[OmniOstrich]

The reason why many people think Jigglypuff's rest doesn't need a buff is because Jigglypuff doesn't need a buff.

She still gets dominated by any character with disjointed hitboxes, she might be high tier but she has some really hard counters. I just think that fair/bair combos and utilt/uair juggles are pretty standard, rest is a very unique thing and it makes the character a lot more fun, but when you only get punished even if you hit its rather discouraging.

 

[stingers]

Jigglypuff isn't that great.

She's still outclassed by Wario and Luigi if you want floaty aerial people. A buffed rest could be enough to make her equal to them.

 

[Kix]

Buffing rest means speeding it up like Ganon's jab?

 

[goodoldganon]

Buffing rest means speeding it up like Ganon's jab?

I'd be willing to make the move harder to punish, but I don't want another rest that KOs at 40%.

 

[Revven]

I'd be willing to make the move harder to punish, but I don't want another rest that KOs at 40%.

Just making it KO at 50% would be enough.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I really don't think it'd be all that broken if it killed at 40% again, but 50% would work.

It's not as crazy easy to pull off as it was in Melee, and it kills way too late to be of any real use.

As it's been said, Luigi's Shoryuken kills much better and there is much less risk involved.

 

[GameSystem]

Why not just make the wake up animation faster so that the flower effect actually has a use? Maybe like after jiggs uses rest, she only takes 1 second to wake up instead of like 3. Think of rest like a strong combo finisher that adds a chunk of damage and poisons them, and sends them too far away to hit you before you wake up.

 

[OmniOstrich]

Why not just make the wake up animation faster so that the flower effect actually has a use? Maybe like after jiggs uses rest, she only takes 1 second to wake up instead of like 3. Think of rest like a strong combo finisher that adds a chunk of damage and poisons them, and sends them too far away to hit you before you wake up.

I suppose this wouldnt be too bad, id rather it be a KO move but this is a pretty good compromise i think.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Make Link's spin-attack stronger? It has a small hitbox and is weak. Compared to his way-too-overpowered-STRAIiiiiiiiiii! In melee. I don't play him, but i know how long it takes to kill...

 

[Veril]

The reason why many people think Jigglypuff's rest doesn't need a buff is because Jigglypuff doesn't need a buff.

Wait, what?

Are we talking about the same Jigglypuff?