Brawl+ character balance discussion

[kupo15]

I didn't read it all but Falcon could uses his reverse knee (there is no reason why that is the only move that can't be reversed)

 

[Revven]

DK-

• 
  [*]Add a little more vertical to the up B.

He doesn't need this, he's fine as is with his recovery, Bowser would need this more than him.

 

[Osi]

I didn't read it all but Falcon could uses his reverse knee (there is no reason why that is the only move that can't be reversed)

Edited mine to have this, great idea kupo.

Added the bowser up B too

 

[kupo15]

Edited mine to have this, great idea kupo.

Added the bowser up B too

I dont think falcon and ganon need the down b reset. Falcon just needs the better up b recovery at all times and the reverse knee.

 

[hyperhopper]

i dont get a few things

A why people use down+b when recovering as falcon, and then want another jump

B what is a reverse knee

C poeple are talking what falcon has become, so the codes are out already? where? is falcon noo longer bottom?

 

[Osi]

i dont get a few things

A why people use down+b when recovering as falcon, and then want another jump - Doing a down B use to give falcon back a jump and aid in recovering, it also adds more options to return to the stage.

B what is a reverse knee - Watch some old melee videos where the knee has a hitstun well behind it, but currently on brawl+ you have to pass all the way through the opponent until the tip of the knee passes into their collision to connect when traveling backwards. This makes the knee bad when used during RAR or jumping backwards for things like hitting someone on a platform up/behind you.

C poeple are talking what falcon has become, so the codes are out already? where? is falcon noo longer bottom? - Brawl+ codes have been out for a while now, check out the brawl+ threads on the front page

Added some responses to the quote.

 

[Archangel]

Not only is falcon not bottom but to me he's pretty close to the high middle or low high tier. At least overall as good as he was in Melee. Not sure if Marth or Falco will ever be where they where. By the end of Brawl+ will I ever see a match like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXWfubQPwB4&feature=related

 

[Zodac]

can you make certain moves like raptor boost not go into helpless mode?
So then falcon can have high tier recovery with raptor bost + falcon dive?

 

[Archangel]

can you make certain moves like raptor boost not go into helpless mode?
So then falcon can have high tier recovery with raptor bost + falcon dive?

I don't think they'll make helpless animation go away because alot of characters would be able to effectively fly back to the stage even those with out wings...lol. However there is talk about adding a second jump back to Falcon's and Gannon's Kick. They may be able to add it to the Side B moves for them as well. I don't know.

 

[Zodac]

better than nothing

 

[The Cape]

The only moves that would need to not go into helpless are moves like Olimar up and B and Ivysaur up and B. All other grapples can be used multiple times, why cant theirs?

With the new beta 3 coming out soon alot of these issues have already been addressed amazingly enough.

Metaknight is a bit easier to kill, Bowser is a bit floatier, but still has weight (easier to get out of combos), Ganon can thunderstorm and ledgehop, etc

Big fixes that definetly need fixed (IMO) are Pikachu down throw because it can 0 to death everyone, Sheik F tilt (same thing, lesser extent), and Metaknight tornado (punishable plz).

Please try to consider things like that, things that are so stupid broken that they absolutely need fixed prior to fun little things like Falcon side B doesnt go into helpless state. (Not that having a wealth of ideas is a bad thing)

 

[Archangel]

I don't like Lucas's Usmash and Kirbies Fsmash. I think they need to be nerfed a bit so they don't kill people 50% and under.

 

[Veril]

I don't like Lucas's Usmash.

You've gotta be kidding me. If you get hit by that often enough to be upset by it than you fail at brawl.


My 2 cents:

Snakes tilt range should be altered such that the animation correlates with the hitbox size. Right now it doesn't make any sense at all. The up-tilt knockback should be lowered as well.

Jigglypuff deserves the knockback rest had in melee. Seriously. If hitstun is increased rest loses literally the only saving grace it has right now, interrupts.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I don't like Lucas's Usmash and Kirbies Fsmash. I think they need to be nerfed a bit so they don't kill people 50% and under.

you are definitely a troll

 

[NinjaFoxX]

lets see...
1.fox/wolf can jump out of shine
2.make luigi more FFable like wolf, that way he'll play more like doc
3.give samus SWD back
4.make yoshi's egg break not make him helpless,make it like GW's where he can jump again

 

[Archangel]

1. Don't fail at Brawl
2. Don't get hit by Lucas's Usmash at all anymore. because I haven't played a Lucas player in like 4 or 5 months. However I did play a Vanilla Brawl Match recently for the Lulz and It really showed me how far Brawl+ has advanced the game.

 

[storm92]

I don't like Lucas's Usmash and Kirbies Fsmash. I think they need to be nerfed a bit so they don't kill people 50% and under.

Kirby's Fsmash is just fine as it is, coming from a former Kirby main in vB and having used him extensively in B+, it's fine.
It's not overpowered, it simply gives him a pretty fast, pretty powerful kill move, which he needed.
It's not spammable like MK's Dsmash, and it doesn't have a wrong speed-to-power ratio such as Snake's Utilt; it's simply a good move.

 

[Archangel]

Kirby's Fsmash is just fine as it is, coming from a former Kirby main in vB and having used him extensively in B+, it's fine.
It's not overpowered, it simply gives him a pretty fast, pretty powerful kill move, which he needed.
It's not spammable like MK's Dsmash, and it doesn't have a wrong speed-to-power ratio such as Snake's Utilt; it's simply a good move.

I see. Well I've seen as much of the new codeset as possible. I haven't played Brawl+ in a long time because My Brawl no longer loads on my Wii for some reason. I got a new 1 and the same thing. However I still play over my Bro's house if I stop by from time to time but I haven't tested any of the recent does or code sets. All I have to go on are recent LULZ matches in Vanilla Brawl with a neighbor. I don't play against Many good Kirby players and haven't played a Good Lucas in a LONG time. So I honestly don't know but If you guys say all is well I believe you.

 

[The Cape]

We cannot alter hitboxes at all.

Period, end of discussion.

Snake's tilts are being addressed for knockback purposes.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

make jiggs rest stronger?

 

[The Cape]

make jiggs rest stronger?

She plays great as is. At most she would only get about 10% knockback increase.

 

[Samuelson]

I think some characters should still have weaknesses. I don't you should fix every characters weakness instead you should expand upon some of their strengths or make things that are just mediocre not mediocre.

Instead of making Link's recovery better why don't you just make him stronger. Keeping the game unique and having characters with obvious weaknesses is what makes this game fun and interesting. It should stay that way imo.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I don't like Lucas's Usmash and Kirbies Fsmash. I think they need to be nerfed a bit so they don't kill people 50% and under.

Yes! Your totally right. Lets nerf characters that dont need to be nerfed just because they have a decent move (obviously not talking about lucas' up smash cuz hell, its not even that good)

Spoiler

Also. Kirby fsmash kills at 50%? This is news to me.

 

[The Cape]

We are shooting to keep the chars different, but we are trying to close the gap.

We are not trying to remove all weaknesses, just fix the glaring ones (or the stupid over powered strengths)

 

[Samuelson]

Yeah, and i agree with that. But instead of doing stuff like fixing recoveries why don't you just keep the recoveries the same and make some other aspects better. I think that would make the game much more interesting. Making Link or Ganon's recovery better would be the same as like making Jigglypuff weigh more in my eyes.

 

[The Cape]

Yeah, and i agree with that. But instead of doing stuff like fixing recoveries why don't you just keep the recoveries the same and make some other aspects better. I think that would make the game much more interesting. Making Link or Ganon's recovery better would be the same as like making Jigglypuff weigh more in my eyes.

We debated all that on Link long and hard. With his change in physics his recovery isnt as horrible. We just need a slight on the stage buff and he should be a monster.

I think he was the only recovery we changed and that was mostly due to his physics changing.

Want to know who has a **** recovery?

Yoshi, Wolf, Mario, Bowser

They dont need buffs either.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

We debated all that on Link long and hard. With his change in physics his recovery isnt as horrible. We just need a slight on the stage buff and he should be a monster.

I think he was the only recovery we changed and that was mostly due to his physics changing.

Want to know who has a **** recovery?

Yoshi, Wolf, Mario, Bowser

They dont need buffs either.

"make yoshi's egg break not make him helpless,make it like GW's where he can jump again"
yoshi also needs jump oos

 

[Eight 52]

Yoshi joos would make him godly.

Also, the only real buff I think Link needs is increased knockback on uncharged spin. It was supposed to clear the way oos, but now it just pokes while he sits there in lag.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Maybe Link is viable with the new settings, but his stats are still pretty bad.
Poor knockback, slow speed, mediocre projectiles and abysmal recovery a balanced character do not make. I'm not saying Link is that bad, but almost.

 

[brinboy789]

if you want to make the game completely balanced, you should nerf the top half of the tier list and buff the bottom half, according to their numbers.

 

[shanus]

if you want to make the game completely balanced, you should nerf the top half of the tier list and buff the bottom half, according to their numbers.

Buffs will pretty much happen to the very bottom tiers of B+ chars, and nerfs to only really the SS tiers. The tier list has tightened substantially and its hard to judge who is truly where.

 

[V-K]

sonic would be better if he could finish.
2-3% more hit dmg?

 

[Eight 52]

Sonic is already amazing as is.

Ask Dark Sonic, that cheeky b@st@rd.

 

[DMG]

Give Wario more range, more damage on Fair and a bit less on Uair and Dair.

Get rid of grab release infinites/Bowser abuse from grab release and DK's quick recover from grab release. I don't have a problem though with tall characters like Marth grab releasing into Fair/DS for example.

Slow down MK's attacks by a tad, either get rid of his invincibility frames on grounded upb or make them activate a bit later or make it SA frames instead of invincibility.

Make Marth's Side B count as 1 full attack, even if you extend it.

Just ideas, I don't think I would play Brawl+ if it has directional air dodging in it, kills a lot of Wario's defensive game.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Just ideas, I don't think I would play Brawl+ if it has directional air dodging in it, kills a lot of Wario's defensive game.

Well your in luck. Cuz most everyone agrees to keep brawl airdodge. Directional airdodging just does not fit what we want for brawl+ game play.

 

[goodoldganon]

Good thing it doesn't have directional air dodging then.

We are also fixing grab releases. I think we got a code to fix them last night, just gotta nail it down.

Wario is really good in B+ and an un-diminishing F-smash is sooooo good for him. With the higher gravity his recovery starts to loo even better, especially cause he can rock people off the stage. God I love Wario!

 

[Veril]

make jiggs rest stronger?

Jiggs rest is NOT that strong. Trust me. Its KO% aren't that impressive especially considering its insane lag. Rest in Melee was very very good. In brawl its only redeeming quality is BASED ON LOW HITSTUN. If hitstun is increased rest gets nerfed even harder than it already has been.

 

[goodoldganon]

I thought rest was arguably too strong in Melee. It can be combo'd into in Brawl+ and upping the knockback really isn't that necessary. Jiggs has a lot of other strengths, she doesn't need to rely on rest IMO.

 

[The Cape]

Jiggs plays great and Rest really doesnt need a boost. Its a good punisher for mistakes over 100% and she does excellent combos and edgeguarding as is.

Wario is ridiculous and needs no changes.

We are fixing grab releases, but Bowser will still have his ability to combo out of his most likely (which is cool), but the infinite grabs is gonna be REALLY hard.

After Beta three we have some ideas we would like to see put in that we think will make the game releaseable as a Gold 1 release. From there, mostly tourney results will affect how things are changed.

 

[goodoldganon]

Man this project really has made great steps and it's awesome we are closing in on a final project. Any timeline on the release of Beta 3? No classes tomorrow means I can do mad testing today.

EDIT: I'm off topic so ummmm what do you guys think of Luigi? I don't think he needs buffs or nerfs per say but I was having trouble doing many solid combos. Also, I was getting 1 jab -> Up-B ping on my friends a lot last night. The ping has mad knockback too.