GameSystem
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2008
- Messages
- 314
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210557
Character Weight list for future reference.
Character Weight list for future reference.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
i suggested char specific hitstun a while back and no one seemed to care.. right now the floaty chars get out of hitstun much to quick. marth,peach, kirby, ect get out way to fast for how good they are at everything eles... it gives them a huge unessesary buff, and makes it to where link and samus can barely combo them at all becuase there moves are 2 slow. >_>
chars specific hitstun would fix alot of things and would be a huge boost to alot of bad chars and a small nerf to say falcon or fox.
this would help so much... i dont see why people say its a bad idea? we could give bowser and link a bunch of stun, take away some of bowsers when hes hit, and add more on peach or marth when they are hit.. it would be a good start on balence
Problem2
Smash Champion
If you're going to nerf Metaknight's d-smash at all, just add some lag to the end of his d-smash. I wouldn't hurt to make it slightly weaker, but I don't want to be comboing all day and not land any kills. That's not fun. His d-smash is quick, but what makes it ridiculous is when someone side steps it and gets hit by a second d-smash before they can move.
This guy needs SOMETHING. He's horrible!
Buffing their waterworks sounds like a good idea
At first, I thought that he needed to have small f-tilt and u-tilt boxes, but if he isn't doing that well, I wouldn't bother with it. Also, if changing hitboxes are impossible, just leaves these moves alone.
His Aerial Sword Spin should reach higher. It's too small for even vanilla Brawl.
Make her rest much stronger. It's a sap move that gets punished even WHEN you land it.
That is all I can think of. We shouldn't try to fix small things, just things that are very noticable. We should let the Brawl+ metagame evolve a bit before mass rebalancing.
hmm thats a good idea but i dont think he understands how bad bowser is in brawl + ... did you tell him about hitstun? or the ALC? has he tryed brawl +?
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Wait, when did this happen? As I recal, hitstun was more likely based on the floatiness of a character (fall speed acceleration). Or it could just be a coincidence that some of the floatiest characters in the game (Luigi, Samus, Peach, ect) suffer the least amount of hitstun while fast fallers are just the opposite.
In otherwords, it's typical that floatier characters suffer from less hitstun, not heavier ones. And I think that's just fine the way it is, since lighter characters can't take nearly as much punishment as heavier ones. What do you think would happen if you switch Bowser's hitstun with Jigglypuff? Bowser would up B out of every combo and Jigglypuff would lose half a stock every time you got a good hit (since you'd combo from it).
but it doesnt have to be that way.. char specific hitstun wouldnet be just a mirror image of the one we have now... it would be different depending on the char... bowser because he is so big and slow needs to have less hitstun when hes hit.. because hes soo easy to hit. jiggs should have about what she has now... and peach should have more than she has now. only a few chars can combo her effectively, and she can combo just about everyone to hell.
see where im going with this.
Why?
You realize we're going way too far with this, right?
Hitstun is a constant, and in most cases when chars are susceptible to high comboing they can also combo well.
Case in point, Fox/Falco/CF in Melee and Brawl.
I don't think we should be messing with this vital of game mechanics.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Why should we do this? One of the disadvantages of playing such a large character is that they are easy to hit (and thus combo). This is true of all fighting games. It's meant to balance out the fact that they are normally much harder to kill (high weight/defense) and do a lot more damage (per hit of course).
Bowser being easy to combo is not something we should really be changing. That's part of being a big/heavy character. The way to "balance" this would be to make sure that Bowser has a significant punishment game and safer offensive/defensive options. In other words, to make a tank better you give it stronger armor and more fire power, you don't try to make it dodge hits.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
Dark Sonic summed it up pretty well.
Is there any way to increase survivability other than increasing weight? I assume doing that would make a character more vulnerable to utilt-spam combos and possibly muck with fall speed. If we could just balance Bowser with higher survivability, and perhaps a faster up-B (or) better fair (or) better bair he'd be good.
Is there any way to increase survivability other than increasing weight? I assume doing that would make a character more vulnerable to utilt-spam combos and possibly muck with fall speed. If we could just balance Bowser with higher survivability, and perhaps a faster up-B (or) better fair (or) better bair he'd be good.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
*doesn't read through topic*
Fix Ike's QD so he doesn't fall into a helpless state if he uses it in the air. Like, make it act in the air the same way Luigi's and Pikachu's Side Bs work in the air.
I would ask for SAFs to the point where he's falling back down during Aether, but that might be a bit too much on top of the QD buff.
Fix Ike's QD so he doesn't fall into a helpless state if he uses it in the air. Like, make it act in the air the same way Luigi's and Pikachu's Side Bs work in the air.
I would ask for SAFs to the point where he's falling back down during Aether, but that might be a bit too much on top of the QD buff.
just brain storming... lol per hit... fox can easily do much more damage on bowser because of this and fox can easily kill bowser in the 110 range from an instant usmash... thats not balanced.. the rate of foxes attacks and how easily they combo completely over powers slower chars .. " what good is strength if you cant hit anyone" ... but like i said i was just considering more than 1 possibility.
as it stands little tweaks arent goign to make bowser usefull .. he needs more power and something to keep from getting ***** by faster char... you said it perfectly Dark sonic
"The way to "balance" this would be to make sure that Bowser has a significant punishment game and safer offensive/defensive options. In other words, to make a tank better you give it stronger armor and more fire power, you don't try to make it dodge hits"
right now because of his speed, attack rate, and lack of combos he does not have a significant punishment game. that and he has the most easy to punish attacks in the game giveing him horible defensive options. being increadibly easy to sheild poke doesnt help much either.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
How many times do I have to say it? To make bowser better just buff his upB. Turn it into a combo move so that it can be easily used to turn from defense to offense.
Does anyone remember back to when kupo and I tried to work out the hitstun formula, to come up with
h = l / 165
H is hitstun in frames and L is launch speed. But when the hitstun code came out, brawl's default value that we were modifying was .4, which means the formula was really
h = .4*l / 66
But we had only tested pit very extensively. That 66 was actually pit's specific character division constant. The .4 value is the global hitstun constant. Faster falling characters have a lower division constant, whereas the floatier characters have a higher division constant. The value here is probably actually some multiplier being applied to 1 - fall speed acceleration, which would make the universal hitstun equation:
h = m*l / (d*(1-a))
Or it could be multiplying the hitstun by fall speed acceleration, making it:
h = m*l*a / d
H is hitstun in frames. L is the launch speed of the move. M is the global multiplier constant (usually .4, but we edit that with brawl+). D is the global division constant. A is the character's fall speed acceleration.
Whatever it is, it doesn't matter. Faster falling characters are affected more by hitstun than floatier characters. This is what does matter. And we aren't changing that, either.
Quoted for massive amounts of truth.
Does anyone remember back to when kupo and I tried to work out the hitstun formula, to come up with
h = l / 165
H is hitstun in frames and L is launch speed. But when the hitstun code came out, brawl's default value that we were modifying was .4, which means the formula was really
h = .4*l / 66
But we had only tested pit very extensively. That 66 was actually pit's specific character division constant. The .4 value is the global hitstun constant. Faster falling characters have a lower division constant, whereas the floatier characters have a higher division constant. The value here is probably actually some multiplier being applied to 1 - fall speed acceleration, which would make the universal hitstun equation:
h = m*l / (d*(1-a))
Or it could be multiplying the hitstun by fall speed acceleration, making it:
h = m*l*a / d
H is hitstun in frames. L is the launch speed of the move. M is the global multiplier constant (usually .4, but we edit that with brawl+). D is the global division constant. A is the character's fall speed acceleration.
Whatever it is, it doesn't matter. Faster falling characters are affected more by hitstun than floatier characters. This is what does matter. And we aren't changing that, either.
if we were to make bowser have a chance at fox it would take more than that ... all fox would have to do is 2 or 3 more combos. the more damage he takes before he goes flying just makes it easyer to combo him... he NEEDs more effective punishment. whether thats killing at lower %s, being able to combo easyer, makeing him faster, or makeing him do more damage. all of these things would work fine...
@leafgreen.. that is a great idea and would help him ... but his problem isnet that one of his moves is to slow. he has much more general problems.
just off the top of my head (with help from you guys)
1. make him survive much longer ( if foxes usmash kills him at say 110 now than it should kill him at 130/140 with this buff)
2. EITHER increase the damage %s if his attacks or increase there knock back (he cant combo anyway so this wouldnet be a nerf)
3. increase the speed of his grounded up-B when and if the line limit is broken.
and before you say this is to much think about D3or DK or snake. they are all heavy chars, and none of them have problems comboing, spaceing with fast attacks, out liveing bowser, or geting kills
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
All I really have to say to that matt is that... you're wrong. Bowser has kill moves. Bowser has a quick defensive move out of his shield. Bowser gets comboed easily. Bowser lacks combos of his own.
The first of these obviously isn't an issue. The second is an already good option he has. His main problem is that he can't combo from this. Being comboed easily is just a problem he will have to deal with. If his best defensive option can be turned into a good offensive option, too, then he will be made viable.
The first of these obviously isn't an issue. The second is an already good option he has. His main problem is that he can't combo from this. Being comboed easily is just a problem he will have to deal with. If his best defensive option can be turned into a good offensive option, too, then he will be made viable.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Just out of curiosity, what are Bowser's safe kill moves (since I really don't know that much about Bowser).
And how would everyone feel about giving Bowser's f-smash some super armor if it's possible? (not for the whole F-smash of course).
And I definitely agree with Leafgrean on the up B issue. A move with a decent hitbox and invincibile startup that can be used OoS and sets up combos? Best anti zoning move ever!! (unless that Ganon uptilt thing catches on, 'cause that's definitely better lol.)
And how would everyone feel about giving Bowser's f-smash some super armor if it's possible? (not for the whole F-smash of course).
And I definitely agree with Leafgrean on the up B issue. A move with a decent hitbox and invincibile startup that can be used OoS and sets up combos? Best anti zoning move ever!! (unless that Ganon uptilt thing catches on, 'cause that's definitely better lol.)
trojanpooh
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2007
- Messages
- 1,183
This isn't character balance per say, but what if we weakened stage hazards? I think that if all hazards were as harmful as the Mario Karts (that is not very harmful but still getting in the way) many stages would become more fun to play in.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
From my experience he doesn't really have a good, safe kill move. Giving him super armor on the f-smash would be a nice idea and a decent buff in my opinion.
On an aside, do we even know how complicated this process will be? I appreciate everything that these hackers are doing, it makes Brawl worth the money I spent now, but I don't know if I want this to be a 2 year project.
On an aside, do we even know how complicated this process will be? I appreciate everything that these hackers are doing, it makes Brawl worth the money I spent now, but I don't know if I want this to be a 2 year project.
i wont argue that bowser has kill moves but there all very slow and easy to punish and with the gravity mods 3 of them get severly nerfed. most of my kills come from off the stage fairs or spot doged dsmashs.
by quick do you mean AA or ftilt? because AA is just to get them away from you and it only does 9 damage, or ftilt? beacause its not very fast and its cooldown time is so much that you get ***** for a miss or block it also only does 12 damage.. you cant make it on those percents when you cant combo out of them. this all works against him. and one move isent going to make him viable unless its made broken like snakes tilts or MK tornado broken.
but in all honesty i hope im wrong. i hope that one buff will make him win tourneys and **** marths on rare occasions. but i highly dought it doing anything more than makeing him suck less in friendlys.
QFT!!!
by the way leafgreen do you main or second bower in melee or brawl? have you ever fought a snake or G&W with him? in brawl +.. im not being sarcastic i really wanna know ^_^'
Brother J
Smash Cadet
I say weaken all of MK's kill moves a lot knockback except for F-Smash. He can still keep is damage racking though. Also do something to Tornado.
The code production process shouldn't be difficult, see how much we've got done since November?
I think we need an organized manner for this to take place, as this thread is just people throwing ideas out there and getting nowhere...
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Agreed. We should talk to Kupo, Leafgreen, Dark Sonic, or some others and try and get a list of who they feel should take part in the balancing of the game. As I said earlier, the topic is mostly crap and has no organization.
I guess I'll toss this out, what if we did a bi-daily topic on each of the characters? They can end earlier or go on longer if we see fit, and lets really nail what HAS to be changed, not what's going to take some random mid tier to top.
Already a step ahead of you there.
i feel the same way. even if i wont be invoved... and more than 1 person should decide what codes to use.
i made a suggestion earlyer where the OP should have every chars name listed. we should start with mario talk about him and when we come to a general concensus we list the buffs under his name. then go onto luigi.
thats not to say every chars or even the majoriy need tweak and if they dont we should agree on that then take them off the list once we get to them.
this would be very organized.. and no offence paprika ^_^' but we need someone more active to update the OP... im sure there will be alot of disscusion on this thread... and it would be hard for 1 person to read everything and keep up.
Ussi
Smash Legend
My tip is to make Ike not go into a helpless state after using Quickdraw. that way he can recovery better cause he'll be falling too fast in B+ :| and reduce the ending lag of Quickdraw. then I'll be happy ;o
and i think we shouldn't try to make every mid tier cause someone will always be on top, why bother to rearrange the order as long as the game mainly skilled based.
and i think we shouldn't try to make every mid tier cause someone will always be on top, why bother to rearrange the order as long as the game mainly skilled based.
kupo15
Smash Hero
man this topic needs to be closed. It has gotten way out of hand and ppl who I never see come in and just request buffs they want without caring.
I don't think SA is a good idea for ANY move at all. I think it ruins the game. The only person with SA is yoshi on his second jump. IIRC that is the only thing up until Brawl to have SA.
I don't think SA is a good idea for ANY move at all. I think it ruins the game. The only person with SA is yoshi on his second jump. IIRC that is the only thing up until Brawl to have SA.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
To be fair, having mains of the characters in question offer suggestions on simple ways to buff their character is actually probably better than having someone who has never played that character before try to buff them. So far, ike and ganon are the only ones who we've had people come in to suggest buffs for them, and I think the buff ideas have been legitimate.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
There has been a lot of crap suggestions though Leaf.
I disagree about SA though Kupo. Honestly, what's wrong with it? It's not like it's really on any spammable moves besides MAYBE Wario's F-Smash. I guess I'd like to hear a reason why to hate on SA.
I disagree about SA though Kupo. Honestly, what's wrong with it? It's not like it's really on any spammable moves besides MAYBE Wario's F-Smash. I guess I'd like to hear a reason why to hate on SA.
ummm *cough* leafgreen im a link main and i suggested this. all of what i wrote cant be illegitimate
i think i asked you about what you think is wrong with SA aswell kupo?
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
It defeats the purpose of attacking the opponent while they're in their move. It's usually on some of the stronger moves in the game, essentially allowing the opponent to plow through your moves with their SA frames, when they should have to wait for an opening to unleash them. Honestly, I think SA on anything besides specials or yoshi's jump is stupid. Yes, this means I think SA on grabs is stupid. If I'm swinging a baseball bat into your head and you're trying to grab my throat, you should not just brush off the hit like nothing and take hold of me.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Just the concept behind SA moves I don't agree with and it doesn't seem to help the game at all. Why should you be granted invincibilty on a move? We have hitstun so now you can actually combo into some moves the only SA things should be yoshi's DJ. IIRC melee didn't have any SA moves and it worked out fine. You should not be able to plow through moves with another move and go nowhere. Obviously I can't really find any way to prove that SA moves hurt the game. I would like to know why you think have SA moves are ok and good for the game.
thesage
Smash Hero
Just because a character's recovery sucks, does not make them a horrible character. Doc had the worst recovery in melee. Mewtwo had one of the best.
Honestly I see SA as more of a bad thing since you take damage and then hit with a move. Wouldn't it just be better to have the move come out quicker?
Honestly I see SA as more of a bad thing since you take damage and then hit with a move. Wouldn't it just be better to have the move come out quicker?
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Well first they aren't invincibility, you still take the full damage. Second, I feel there is a certain depth to being able to place the SA frames right so you can get an attack through. Really I guess my argument is 'If it ain't broke why fix it?'
I'd need a refresher on SA moves before I make a serious argument one way or the other. I guess we should chalk it up as something to discuss here at a later time? As you said, this topic is mostly crap and starting a topic on the validity of SA moves isn't gonna make it any better.
I'd need a refresher on SA moves before I make a serious argument one way or the other. I guess we should chalk it up as something to discuss here at a later time? As you said, this topic is mostly crap and starting a topic on the validity of SA moves isn't gonna make it any better.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Exactly. And going back to 64 link had the worst recovery yet isai could still win with him sometimes with flying colors. Its just a different style of playing and you have to be more careful not to get knocked off the stage. It doesn't mean he sucks. Ive seen some pretty impressive isai link playing
i dont think that SA is a bad thing its just the way they used it.
-warios fsmash should not have SA
- ikes b should not have SA
but there are some good uses
- bowser bomb needs it its to slow to not have it
- ikes recovery needs it if you could hit him when he throws up his sword it would just be wonky.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
To be fair... he's isai. Link just needs to be able to **** onstage so that when he gets knocked off it's ok.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
I played a lot with Link today and yes his recovery is atrocious, but if you DI well, keep to the center of stages, and mix up your recovering game Link is all right. That's right I said ALL-RIGHT, he isn't broken! Lower end of the characters? Probably. But he isn't unplayable, he has things going for him. I'll still vouch for a recovery boost, especially if higher gravities become the accepted rules, but he isn't unusable.