Brawl+ character balance discussion

[Shadic]

link will always have bad recovery and not combo as easily as toon link

The problem is how Brawl+ nerfs a character that already had a terrible recovery. If we can make the gravity less for Link or something, as I said before, it'll still keep Link unique, but give him a chance to actually make it back to the stage.

Right now, he's getting KO'd in Brawl+ at the same percentages I was with Link in Smash64. A game where Link is at the bottom of the tier list almost exclusively because of his recovery.

 

[kupo15]

i have only been talking about my mains ^_^' i dont pretend to know how to play as yoshi or lucas. look at my sig those are my mains, and only ness is a viable touney choice atm (notice i dont talk about him)

and about the fludd thing. the reason i talk about mario is becuase one of the guys i play with mains mario and he used to use fludd right when i attacked and my move would get caught in hitlag giveing him a free quick hit. without hitlag it just pushes you back

Maybe you don't know your mains as much as you think based off of what I have been reading.

Do you even know what hitlag is? I can't imagine that move even giving off hitlag of any kind..

 

[Lemonwater]

Link - Increase recovery range and improve the area of his Up+B on the ground a little. Give it multiple hitboxes to make it not so punishable. Make the seperate hits of f-smash deal a bit more knockback. That is all.

Kirby - Reduce startup lag a bit on his smashes, increase range and power of Final Cutter shockwave.

Ike - Make tilts a bit faster, reduce wind down lag on a connecting Quickdraw. Increase horizontal range of Aether a bit.

Metaknight - Reduce number of hits in Mach Tornado by 1 or 2, and increase wind-down lag, make Drill Rush better somehow, shorten his general range a bit, and put more cooldown on his smashes (both startup and wind-down)

Marth - Change Shield Breaker animation back to the Melee one. Make his throws a little better.

Falco - Put a range cap on that laser.

Ness - Make his yoyo attacks deal more knockback. Make it so his PK Thunder can pass through people like Lucas'

Ganondorf - Increase his hit range a bit, definitely improve his grab range. Double it if necessary. Speed up rolling a bit.

G&W - Terrible roll. It needs speeding up. Make B shoot projectiles faster so it will actually be practical in more situations. Increase the distance the food travels before vanishing (if you do it in the air it doesnt cover you because it vanished before it hits the ground).

 

[Silfa]

well leaf green beat me to it but the line limit might not be a problem for long

@silfa: is fludd as usfull as luigis torando? does it do good damage. help recover. and help combo? no... its only good for 1 thing and only if the enemy has a piss poor recovery to begin with.

and cape as i said is good but there are much better reflector AND attack flipers on MUCH better chars like fox falco wolfs reflectors... or pits attack fliper, yet mario who isent that good to begin with gets the short end of the stick in both ways

You can use FLUDD more than edgeguard. If an enemies come at you with an aerial, you can use fludd often initiated making them sort of stop midair and you can plant a Fsmash in their face. And you keep talking about the move like you use it by itself, that's not what it's for. You can use the move onstage as well to just get the opponent away from you, which can be very helpful in some cases. Though yes, if you just use the move to edgeguard and don't use the cape/other move, the move is situational and not that good, but this is why the move is used in combination.

The cape's main use isn't to reflect like those other characters' ones though, you can't compare a moves secondary use to another characters moves main use like you are with the space animals' shines. Say you have a Fox fighting a Falco, Falco's off the edge about to use him side B. FoX predicts that Falco will use his side B so tries to shine, this hits the Falco, but won't send him flying in the opposite direction. Fox's reflector then must be bad because it can't edgeguard as well as Mario's, right? No, not neccasirily, but following your logic of comparing two moves with different main uses tben it would be.

The shines are all better reflectors, but none edge guard as well as the cape - Falco's and maybe Wolf's (don't know whether Wolf's use it offstage) aren't really ever used to edgeguard at all. Pit's sheild is probably a better reflector, but is more awkward to use offstage. Mario's cape is probably the worst reflector, but the best at stopping people from returning to the stage and in turn, taking stocks.

 

[kupo15]

Wow, I can't believe what I'm seeing. Buff MK and Gaw? This thread never ceases to amaze me and not in a good way...

 

[FireKirby7]

Are Ness and Lucas getting DJC? :D

 

[matt4300]

Maybe you don't know your mains as much as you think based off of what I have been reading.

Do you even know what hitlag is? I can't imagine that move even giving off hitlag of any kind..

i have been playing smash since 64 like most of you and i play a good bit every week for years.. im not saying im super good but i have used the moves millions of times on every char so i under stand how they work.

and hitlag is when you hit or get hit and lag for a spilt second like falcons knee and zeldas heal. when you attack marios fludd water you lag for a little bit wich makes your attack end later giveing mario a chance to get in a tilt or another quick move.

"You can use FLUDD more than edgeguard. If an enemies come at you with an aerial, you can use fludd often initiated making them sort of stop midair and you can plant a Fsmash in their face"

this guy knows what im talking about kupo

mabye im kinda overeacting to get my point across, but i will fight for my mains to stop sucking and others will represent there mains im sure. (god help you yoshi mains)

wow buff G&W i think this belongs on the G&W boards not in a balance thread

 

[goodoldganon]

Wow, I can't believe what I'm seeing. Buff MK and Gaw? This thread never ceases to amaze me and not in a good way...

This.

It's a decent attempt for a topic but I'm not 100% sure it should be open to the public. (Hell, I probably wouldn't be invited so don't see this as elitist.) Just because G and W has some useless moves it does NOT mean we should buff any part of him.

 

[kupo15]

i have been playing smash since 64 like most of you and i play a good bit every week for years.. im not saying im super good but i have used the moves millions of times on every char so i under stand how they work.

and hitlag is when you hit or get hit and lag for a spilt second like falcons knee and zeldas heal. when you attack marios fludd water you lag for a little bit wich makes your attack end later giveing mario a chance to get in a tilt or another quick move.

"You can use FLUDD more than edgeguard. If an enemies come at you with an aerial, you can use fludd often initiated making them sort of stop midair and you can plant a Fsmash in their face"

this guy knows what im talking about kupo

mabye im kinda overeacting to get my point across, but i will fight for my mains to stop sucking and others will represent there mains im sure. (god help you yoshi mains)

wow buff G&W i think this belongs on the G&W boards not in a balance thread

Oh you mean attacking the water? Does that produce hitlag? I never tried. But regardless, you don't need hitlag to do what the quote says...it does that anyway.


And there you go assuming everyone is terrible again...this time he isn't your main....but you are going to do whatever you can to make sure your mains are top tier?? D:

mabye im kinda overeacting to get my point across, but i will fight for my mains and stop sucking at them and others will represent there mains im sure. (god help you yoshi mains)

Fixed

Your mains are not terrible...

 

[yummynbeefy]

how about take away mks glide toss and make all of his attacks come out at least 2 frames later than they alreaddy are

 

[Blank Mauser]

Sonic's f-smash and bair both have ridiculous disjointedness (as well as range), and are safe on block. And he has better priority than half of the cast. I really wish people would get over this "Sonic has no range/priority/kill moves" stereotype that has been proven wrong months ago.

You can literally just pivot f-smash characters through their attacks, and you say Sonic has bad kill moves? You see Metaknight do a retreating fair? Pivot f-smash. Tornado, run away and dash cancel f-smash (through the ****ing tornado). Fox is above you about to dair? Pivot and start charging an f-smash.

In fact, you might as well use pivot f-smash to rack damage while you're at it (thank you no stale moves) and still kill with it since it's just that easy to land f-smash.

Sonic has no problems killing.
Maybe at high percentages. At low percentages you can chain fairs together, link uairs after that, and then use your side B->jump to chase their DI for one or two more uairs. Then you just set up a juggle trap (since Sonic's uair outranges every dair in the game except Ike and DDD)


How about safe kill moves, better edgeguarding, dash dance mixups, dash cancel mixups, faster damage racking, and actual kill setups (in addition to tech chasing and shfflcombos like you've said).

Sonic is easily top tier material.

I don't think he needs to be nerfed at all (totally biased opinion), but really every single change that has been made has helped Sonic tremendously (Except upgrav,which my friends and I don't use anyway).


/Sonic is top tier rant.

These are great buffs and all but compared to other characters its not much to save Sonic. People can just DI off the stage when you try and SHFFL them, or DI towards the ground and tech. Fsmash is not THAT much easier to land especially against good players when you compare it to moves like Kirby's Fsmash or Snake's Utilt. And even though he has good range, he still has bad priority compared to a lot of the cast. His hitboxes can be disjointed but it doesn't mean a thing if his hurtbox is just as big. The opportunities to use Fsmash will be after a Dtilt, or with techchase, and if you can sweetspot Dsmash its a much better kill move for techchasing because it comes out faster.

His moves are safer, but not abusable. Unlike a lot of other chars.

 

[matt4300]

Oh you mean attacking the water? Does that produce hitlag? I never tried. But regardless, you don't need hitlag to do what the quote says...it does that anyway.

And there you go assuming everyone is terrible again...this time he isn't your main....but you are going to do whatever you can to make sure your mains are top tier?? D:

yes it produces hitlag...

lol that yoshi crack was a joke becuase of the fact that there are hardly any yoshi mains and i dont think i have seen any that play brawl +.
i only think that bowser is terrible. link and samus are just not viable.as i said there is hardly anything that can make link as good as toonlink even with damage and recovery buffs. just for the simple fact that toonlink is faster and can combo to kill moves. it would be rediculous for me to think any of my mains could ever be top tier 3 smash games have proved that, but that doesnt mean we cant buff them until they can win a tournement.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Dark Sonic, since B+ I have realized how HORRIBLY false we were to believe Sonic had bad priority. And without move decay his Kill moves are that much better. Sonic is top tier no doubt. Question is, do we need to nerf him?

I don't think he needs to be nerfed, specifically since I can already point out a few bad matchups that Sonic players will have.

1.Marth-this was already a bad matchup in vbrawl, and it really didn't change much dificulty-wise IMO (It actually got a little harder). They can both combo and juggle each other really well, but Marth still has his fair and d-tilt walls (which are safer now thanks to shieldstun) and can now combo into his kill moves, which kill a lot earlier than Sonic's. And now Marth's DB is even better since it shield locks, shield stabs, and kills at higher percentages (thanks to no stale moves). For other matchup details, refer to either the Sonic boards or the Marth boards (I only mentioned changes here).

2.Peach-OMG this matchup is terrible! Not only does she have the advantages that she had in vBrawl (floating dairs.), but now she can combo and now she has better shield pressure. Everyone should learn Peach, since she's pretty much going to be your Sonic counter.

I'm sure there's more, but those are the one's that really seemed to stick out so far

 

[kupo15]

yes it produces hitlag...

lol that yoshi crack was a joke becuase of the fact that there are hardly any yoshi mains and i dont think i have seen any that play brawl +.
i only think that bowser is terrible. link and samus are just not viable.as i said there is hardly anything that can make link as good as toonlink even with damage and recovery buffs. just for the simple fact that toonlink is faster and can combo to kill moves. it would be rediculous for me to think any of my mains could ever be top tier 3 smash games have proved that, but that doesnt mean we cant buff them until they can win a tournement.

Not viable...lol....say what!? So link sucks because toon link is better? You are talking nonsense...

 

[Shadic]

Actually, Link does kinda suck just because Toon Link is better. I like Link more, but if I'm against somebody that I'm close to in skill, I'll play Toon Link. This coming from somebody who has mained Link since Smash64, but wouldn't touch Young Link in Melee with a ten foot pole.

And a huge part of that is his recovery.

 

[matt4300]

Not viable...lol....say what!? So link sucks because toon link is better? You are talking nonsense...

sigh... was link touney viable in vb? and by viable i mean can win if your a good link player..
i was using toon link as an example becuase he has similar moves. link sucks becuase hes slow, has a terrible recovery, and has lack luster projectiles . and the way to fix this is to fix his recovery, make him do more damage so a 2 hit combo doing 23% isnet usless on a char that can do a 40% combo and use much faster kill moves. i dont really care about fixing his projectiles i like them and they work just fine.

LINK MAINS ATTACK!!!!! @o@ (XD)

im not talking nonsense.. if you mained link for 10 years you would see where im coming from. i understand what makes him strong and i understand his weaknesses and his weaknesses outweigh his strengths. that is what it means to be a bad char.

and let me reiderate i DONT think that everyone is terrible (even if you were exadurating) i think that bowser is terrible and other chars (like 7) have terrible things about them.

if i were just talking out my *** and wanted link to be top teir i would ask that the top tiers be nerfed ... but im not that would be unfair to the people that main them.

 

[Dark Sonic]

These are great buffs and all but compared to other characters its not much to save Sonic. People can just DI off the stage when you try and SHFFL them, or DI towards the ground and tech.

All of Sonic's aerials send people up (except dair), so you will not be able to DI towards the ground and tech before Sonic can reach you again (except if you are grounded and get hit with a bair or something) And DIing off the stage just sets you up for edgeguards (against one of the better edgeguarders in the game) and ledgetraps.

Fsmash is not THAT much easier to land especially against good players when you compare it to moves like Kirby's Fsmash or Snake's Utilt.

With Sonic's speed and pivoting? Yes, yes it is.

And even though he has good range, he still has bad priority compared to a lot of the cast.

Maybe when it comes to ground moves against other ground moves (which is the only situation where move priority even comes into play). Every other exchange is based solely on the disjointedness of attacks (how far the hitboxes extend past the hurboxes), which Sonic has quite a bit of.

His hitboxes can be disjointed but it doesn't mean a thing if his hurtbox is just as big.

Except it's not. Sonic's limbs don't act as hurboxes for some of his attacks (uair and f-smash are great examples), and some of his attacks have ridiculously large hitboxes as well (though nothing compares to Snake's tilts). Have you seen the hitboxes on Sonic's uptilt, up smash, f-smash, bair, fair, and uair?

The opportunities to use Fsmash will be after a Dtilt, or with techchase, and if you can sweetspot Dsmash its a much better kill move for techchasing because it comes out faster.

WTF, those are terrible examples. The opportunities to use f-smash will be anytime you think your opponent is going to come in with a short hopped aerial (since it outranges most of them), or when your opponent has just missed an aerial...or after a tech chase like you've mentioned. And f-smash is stronger than D-smash, as well as safer (actually, f-smash is indeed safe on block). F-smash has more vertical range, is more disjointed, has less ending lag, and is over all a safer move than D-smash. If you want a kill move you can combo into, you're much better off going with bair or uair (yes, that's a kill move, due to how easy it is to put people high enough for it to kill off the top).

His moves are safer, but not abusable. Unlike a lot of other chars.

That depends on what your definition of abusable is. Sonic's moves are safe, meaning that I don't recieve punishment for putting them out. However, Sonic can still punish other characters "safe" moves with a variety of methods, whether it be plowing through it with invincibility frames (side B hop and upsmash hop), out prioritizing it (f-smash, uair, bair, uptilt, and sometimes fair), or just plain making it miss since he has the fastest dash speed as well as the longest dash dance in the game. All you need to do is pivot an f-tilt and you'll set up for an easy tech chase. Heck you could just dash dance and come in with your 3 frame dash attack as punishment (which leads into more techchasing, or even combos if you sourspot it).

I mean, how many other characters can just tear straight through Snake's f-tilt? And then combo him from it? (side B->footstool->dair->other stuff is a combo)

 

[kupo15]

Actually, Link does kinda suck just because Toon Link is better. I like Link more, but if I'm against somebody that I'm close to in skill, I'll play Toon Link. This coming from somebody who has mained Link since Smash64, but wouldn't touch Young Link in Melee with a ten foot pole.

And a huge part of that is his recovery.

I was think more along the lines of Link sucks because there is someone better than him.

sigh... was link touney viable in vb? and by viable i mean can win if your a good link player..
i was using toon link as an example becuase he has similar moves. link sucks becuase hes slow, has a terrible recovery, and has lack luster projectiles . and the way to fix this is to fix his recovery, make him do more damage so a 2 hit combo doing 23% isnet usless on a char that can do a 40% combo and use much faster kill moves. i dont really care about fixing his projectiles i like them and they work just fine.

LINK MAINS ATTACK!!!!! @o@ (XD)

Umm I don't care AT ALL about Vb. AT ALL! This is not Vb. IMO Young link was not as good as Link but could still compete.

Sonic stuff

Geez, why are ppl arguing about sonic when they don't know **** about him? Dark Sonic knows what he is talking about.

 

[matt4300]

I was think more along the lines of Link sucks because there is someone better than him.


Umm I don't care AT ALL about Vb. AT ALL! This is not Vb. IMO Young link was not as good as Link but could still compete.


Geez, why are ppl arguing about sonic when they don't know **** about him? Dark Sonic knows what he is talking about.

well how eles would a char suck. if everyone was as bad as him he wouldnet suck anymore right? theres only one way for a char to suck in a fighting game and that is for the majority of the cast to be better than him
i second that notion, VB is dead to me i was just using it as an example of what being tourney viable means and link was not and has not ever been that.
in melee the tiers were much closer.

 

[kupo15]

well how eles would a char suck. if everyone was as bad as him he wouldnet suck anymore right? theres only one way for a char to suck in a fighting game and that is for the majority of the cast to be better than him
i second that notion, VB is dead to me i was just using it as an example of what being tourney viable means and link was not and has not ever been that.
in melee the tiers were much closer.

Just because a character isn't as good as another doesn't mean they suck like Mewtwo compared to Fox. Samus doesn't suck like you say she does...Yoshi doesn't suck either

 

[matt4300]

Just because a character isn't as good as another doesn't mean they suck like Mewtwo compared to Fox. Samus doesn't suck like you say she does...Yoshi doesn't suck either

yes but there not near as good as the top tiers. i know nothing about yoshi besides that hes alot better now but still has a bad recovery and down smash. so talking with me about yoshi is pointless. samus on the other hand has the same problems link does besides the recovery. all she needs is a kill move and short hop fix. but i also wasent talking about samus.

no bowser vs fox in brawl + is like fox vs mewtow in melee

i said the majority not all .. link is worse than the majority thats a fact wich makes him a bad char.
i feel like a broken record at this point... so what are your thoughts on link? how good do you think he is? what would you fix?

 

[Finns7]

Link is viable if you know what your doing, his rang and zair set up locks which basically = ****


Samus got buffed with hitsun and she basically cant be edgeguarded. She has combos.

 

[Eaode]

Link is viable if you know what your doing, his rang and zair set up locks which basically = ****


Samus got buffed with hitsun and she basically cant be edgeguarded. She has combos.

Samus has Combos but no reliable kill moves (besides her Dair) and her projectiles are hardly worth it.

 

[goodoldganon]

Link is viable if you know what your doing, his rang and zair set up locks which basically = ****


Samus got buffed with hitsun and she basically cant be edgeguarded. She has combos.

Samus can't kill worth a ****. She needs at least 1 or maybe 2 reliable kill moves. We don't need to give her 10 new kill moves, she builds damage like a fiend.

Link is not one of the best characters, but as Finns said he has things going for him. A fix to his recovery and possibly making his spin attack always be charged and he'd be good to go.

People don't seem to get that this isn't gonna be a sweeping overhaul of the cast. These are bandaid fixes. We can change some move properties but this isn't gonna totally reinvent the way a character moves or fights. The best example I have is someone suggested making Marth's Shield Breaker swing the same way it did in Melee. That's not gonna happen.

 

[thesage]

Can't you just boost the power of Samus' d-tilt? People already use that as a kill move (kinda).

 

[matt4300]

Link is viable if you know what your doing, his rang and zair set up locks which basically = ****


Samus got buffed with hitsun and she basically cant be edgeguarded. She has combos.

really finnz link has an uphill battle with all of the high and top tier (or most) its not right

and yeh samus really got an awsome buff with hitstun and i dont remeber her ever being able to get edgeguarded.

lock are just as gay as (inescapable) chaingrabs but thats just me

 

[doom dragon 105]

Give Ike MK moveset...

Change the physics of the ledge, that would make Ike alot better

 

[Shadic]

Link is viable if you know what your doing, his rang and zair set up locks which basically = ****

A character in Brawl+ that can get easily knocked off the ledge and prevented from coming back at under 50% can't be that good.

Link falls too fast, and his recovery sucks too hard. If he's off the stage, he's dead.

 

[TP]

We Ganon mains only need one thing: the ability to cancel the Utilt at any point. We have been searching for months for this legendary technique, but nobody has found it yet. If we could get the wind effect for a few frames and then go right into something else, Ganon would be terrifying.

Oh, and increase his grab range. It's ridiculous currently.

 

[Lemonwater]

sigh... was link touney viable in vb? and by viable i mean can win if your a good link player..
i was using toon link as an example becuase he has similar moves. link sucks becuase hes slow, has a terrible recovery, and has lack luster projectiles . and the way to fix this is to fix his recovery, make him do more damage so a 2 hit combo doing 23% isnet usless on a char that can do a 40% combo and use much faster kill moves. i dont really care about fixing his projectiles i like them and they work just fine.

LINK MAINS ATTACK!!!!! @o@ (XD)

im not talking nonsense.. if you mained link for 10 years you would see where im coming from. i understand what makes him strong and i understand his weaknesses and his weaknesses outweigh his strengths. that is what it means to be a bad char.

and let me reiderate i DONT think that everyone is terrible (even if you were exadurating) i think that bowser is terrible and other chars (like 7) have terrible things about them.

if i were just talking out my *** and wanted link to be top teir i would ask that the top tiers be nerfed ... but im not that would be unfair to the people that main them.

You have a point. Link is a bit on the slow side and has a bad recovery (and I think his grab is really risky), but that's where it ends for me. I've mained Link for 10 years too. His projectiles are different, not lackluster or somehow inferior (and he has THREE of them). Bomb comboing is pretty good, and his bombs deal pretty decent damage. His arrows arc unlike TL's. He has power and has the attack range on his disjointed hitbox to back up that power. Even without bombs, Link has pretty decent combo ability and he's difficult to approach and has a good spacing game. His priority is also relatively good. I find that his fast falling speed is a blessing if he is on the stage, since it allows n-air, z-air and f-air stringing.

His attacking and damaging ability is quite good, since his attacks are actually fairly quick for a character of his weight and speed. Just because he has a bad recovery does not mean his weaknesses outweigh his strengths. It's just that in tournaments people edge guard/gimp like mad and Link doesn't have the recovery to deal with it. People are always taking advantage of that one weakness. It's not that he has a ton of different flaws. If he stays on solid ground, I find that even characters like Marth and Snake have trouble with him.

Edit: Toon Link isn't even similar to Link in the way he handles. His attacks look similar but their properties are way different too. It's more accurate to say he's like a shorter Marth with projectiles and less close-quarter range.

 

[Shell]

I've been thinking about character tweaks for some time. Here are some rough possibilities before we know exactly what we can do. I'll try to stick to the characters I'm more familiar with.

Ganondorf:

Right now Ganon has an excellent offensive game. However, most quicker characters will never give him a chance to use this game (I experienced several frustrating matches against my friend's Sonic). This is why G's grab and jab are the absolute keys to his game. They are the fulcrum in the shifting point from defense to offense.

Consider these scenarios from Melee: Fox is pressuring Ganon's shield with drill-shines. His two best options are to sneak a grab in immediately after the fox shines, or to try and space a lighting-jab properly. Either of these options moves Ganon from defense to offense, or at least back to neutral. Similarly, watch videos of Linguini vs. a good Falco (such as Chops). Falco can put a lot of pressure on Ganon, but a well timed jab or grab can set up for offense and edge guarding.

Once again, a great offense is useless if you can never use it. In brawl, Ganon's jab has gone from coming out on frame 3 to coming out on frame 8. Additionally, many other characters have jabs which come out on the first frame. His grab range has also been reduced to a range that doesn't make sense relative to the size of his character. As a result, any character faster than him can shut down the majority of his game.

TL;DR

Therefore, I propose
- Speeding up his jab animation and reducing its knockback (return of lightning jab)
- Extending his grab range to a logical amount relative to the size of his model.

-And if lines permit, make his U-tilt cancelable by shield

I have ideas for Link, Mario, Samus, and Bowser, but I'll wait for another post to avoid a major wall-of-text.

 

[kupo15]

I agree with shells ganon ideas except the utilt xD

 

[leafgreen386]

I love the utilt idea ;p (which was actually brought up by Twilight Prince, not shell)

Jab is probably possible but I don't think the grab thing would be be unless we can give it the hitbox of another one of his moves (jab? lol probably not a good idea).

 

[Shell]

Well, the move's mostly useless, otherwise. I can dream, right?

Anyways, I'll be posting more minor Theses on characters in the future.

 

[goodoldganon]

SHeLL nailed what any balancing post should be like. Concrete and feasible examples with reason why and a lengthy justification. Emulate him.

The jab fix is nearly required for Ganon by the way. Fast characters lock him out.

 

[matt4300]

oh? hmm awsome shell .. i would love to hear what you have to say on link samus and bowser. wall of text or not

 

[yummynbeefy]

how about take away mks glide toss and make all of his attacks come out at least 2 frames later than they alreaddy are (add just a bit of lag as well)

maaaaaaebe give pit back his up-b (after getting hit not after attack though) so basicly make it like sonic and snakes up-b

 

[Lemonwater]

I like the new Ganon jab animation, but it should be as fast as the Melee one =(

And make u-tilt useful lol

 

[Dark Sonic]

-And if lines permit, make his U-tilt cancelable by shield.

Umm...as cool as that sounds, wouldn't that make it ridiculously easy to get grabs with him? (uptilt->shield->grab). I really should learn a little more about how the wind mechanic works though, so I'll just ask a few questions.

Do wind effects cause any hitlag (if so, does the hitlag affect the person causing the wind effect as well, or is it more like a projectile)?

Do wind effects have hitboxes (like water effects)? If so, how many hitboxes does Ganon's uptilt produce?

Does the wind effect on Ganon's uptilt affect aerial opponents?

About how far does the wind effect reach?

The reason I ask these things is because giving Ganon the wind effect with no repercussions would enable him to pretty much disrupt every character's spacing games for free. It would be even worse if it game him a frame advantage as well (which is why I asked the hitlag/box questions), but still... Maybe if it was jump cancelable or had IASA frames, but popping out the wind effect and immediately shielding? That seems a little over the top to me.

 

[kupo15]

Umm...as cool as that sounds, wouldn't that make it ridiculously easy to get grabs with him? (uptilt->shield->grab). I really should learn a little more about how the wind mechanic works though, so I'll just ask a few questions.

Do wind effects cause any hitlag (if so, does the hitlag affect the person causing the wind effect as well, or is it more like a projectile)?

Do wind effects have hitboxes (like water effects)? If so, how many hitboxes does Ganon's uptilt produce?

Does the wind effect on Ganon's uptilt affect aerial opponents?

About how far does the wind effect reach?

The reason I ask these things is because giving Ganon the wind effect with no repercussions would enable him to pretty much disrupt every character's spacing games for free. It would be even worse if it game him a frame advantage as well (which is why I asked the hitlag/box questions), but still... Maybe if it was jump cancelable or had IASA frames, but popping out the wind effect and immediately shielding? That seems a little over the top to me.

Wind effects give no hitlag
Wind effects have hitboxes cause I can flip him around with pits shield during charging
It reaches above him im pretty sure
The range is very big