Brawl+ character balance discussion

[SGX]

I think several of ZSS's moves could stand to come out a bit faster. She has great running speed, but her attacks overall feel sluggish.

Lucario's d-air needs a bit of nerfing. Maybe if it didn't come out instantly it would be alright.

I'm sure I'll think of more stuff later.

 

[storm92]

-
*Make Sonic's dsmash and usmash come out on frame 1-5.
*The first part of D-throw where Sonic is in a ball shouldn't be techable.

Um, I'm guessing these would all be to benefit Sonic.
Sonic in Brawl+...doesn't need the help.
He's a comboing machine.
See new CF in dictionary.

-
*Double the ending and lag on all of his aerials, dsmash, and all of his tilts. For the landing lag of his attacks, they should be as long as Snake's. Lag for landing helpless should be huge as well.
*Remove most of his extra jumps so that he only has 2 midair jumps like Charizard. He would lose his glide (including his ^B glide). Tornado wouldn't get any aditional height and the drill rush wouldn't push MK up at the end and cover less length.
*His sword would have one-third of it's range.
MK would be only as heavy as half of Jigglypuff.
*To help emphasis his longer landing lag, he should fall much faster as well. He'd have Fox's falling speed and Link's fast falling speed.

We're not attempting to make a character suck.
Getting a bit carried away now, are we?

-
*Bair and nair would have smaller hitboxes and more landing lag.
*Utilt would have less range and have more ending lag, but his utilt would start up much faster.

Eh, whatever. He's not broken in Brawl, I see no problem with him.

-
*Remove the chaingrab.
Make the firing frequency of his blaster as low as Link spamming arrows. His shdl would be the same frequency as his blaster on the ground before it was slowed down. That way, Laser Locking would be removed.

No no no.
Hitstun removes his chain grab.
Also, tech. If you don't tech, it's your own fault for being locked.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic:
-Increased knockback for fair bair nair and ftilt

Why would you buff Sonic? Sonic is already borderline broken in brawl+ After playing quite a few matches yesterday (against people who you know, actually practice this game, lol) I believe that my theory of Sonic soft countering Metaknight is correct.

You do realize that Sonic's fair and bair would still combo even with increased knockback right (since the distance they're sent isn't really that important, those moves combo until high percentages anyway). While in contrast both moves would be made better for edgeguarding (which Sonic is already amazing at btw, not Metaknight amazing, but definitely one of the better edgeguarders.)

Increading the knockback on f-tilt really doesn't do anything, since it doesn't combo anyway and it's not used for killing. Even with increased knockback it still wouldn't be that good for setting up edgeguards anyway (it sends them at too high of an angle when they DI correctly). D-tilt is a better option (since it also sends them high, but it combos into uair)

Buffing nair...would really just give him another option for edgeguarding. Though inferior to fair and bair, unless you're talking about using the soft nair to edgeguard, but I find soft bair to be more effective (less lag and you can fast fall a fair afterwards to drag them even lower and miss the final hit on purpose)

Sorry about the rant, but I do believe it is still too early to be implementing character nerfs and buffs. In this case, you almost buffed a borderline top tier character (he's got a few counters, so I can't call him top tier).

-
*The first part of D-throw where Sonic is in a ball shouldn't be techable.

What portion of the d-throw can they tech on? (like, when he throws them on the ground but before he spins on them). If the tech has to be done really early in the d-throw, then you could still catch them off guard by just throwing them faster (by the time they realize that they've been thrown they would've missed their opportunity to tech). If it's any latter, then I guess d-throw will just be useless. Sonic still has upthrow for comboing though (and I really need to try f-throw, I keep forgetting about it, lol)

 

[kupo15]

^^I think the lesson learned is to let sonic mains deal with the nerf/buffing suggestions since we obviously don't know **** about him!

I would love to see your sonic in brawl+. I bet sonic will be really scary with the new hitlag codes. My DI sucks as it is against sonic lol

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Yeah, I was at a smashfest yesterday and everyone came in thinking Ike and Metaknight were broken. Halfway through the night everyone unanimously agreed that Ike was no big deal and that Sonic was better than Metaknight (although Peach still ***** Sonic, I learned that the hard way.)

We were playing on 10 percent hitstun and I was still able to get Ledgehop uair->full hop uair->land on platform double jump uair->up B->uair. I have it on my Wii I think, but I don't have an SD card so I can't upload it . But I think one of the best parts about Sonic is that he's so hard to combo. It may be different on higher hitstun, but DI+upB is the best combo breaker ever (much better than airdodging). You can even combo from the spring that you dropped on them (I got an aerial spring->dair->up B uair kill combo too).

Though I saw a few possible counters for Sonic too. Peach still just flat out beats most of my moves, and although I can combo her, she's still got solid enough walls to keep me out. The shieldstun helps her a lot in this matchup, since I can't just run in, shield, and retaliate like I could before. I had some trouble against Kirby too. I'd be interested to see how Sonic does against Lucario as well, since Sonic's main way to get inside his range in that matchup was to run in, shield, and run in some more. You can probably still powershield, but it would make the matchup harder I think.

Anyway, enough about Sonic, the point I'm getting at is that Sonic is easily a candidate for top tier/top of high tier in brawl, and that I'm worried about making buffs and nerfs too early because it's obvious that just a few changes (hitstun) can have drastic changes on how good a character is and we can't use brawl's balance to determine brawl+ nerfs and buffs.

 

[kupo15]

Yea sonic is someone to fear although hopefully the reduced hitlag will make it easier to combo sonic since we have the code. If you have any matches you want uploaded, send it to me and I'll do a couple. We need some sonic representation

 

[Osi]

Sonic will also likely receive the best buff from the momentum code when it hits due to his insane run speed. I've played a bit of sonic on brawl+ and he is really good. The hitstun did a lot for him, and he is one of my favorites to DD with now lol. He may not have 0 to death combos, but he has a lot of setups for spring up air and bair combo kills.

I'd like to keep the fixes to a minimum honestly. I dislike character specific codes taking up the already limited space. The only nerfing I am in favor of are ones to MK to make him a little less broken. I think with brawl+ there is also the aspect that it takes so much more skill to win. I doubt a player can win as easily on MK against a well trained fox/sonic like they could in vanilla. I've heard all these stories of "so and so just picked up MK in 2 weeks and placed high at this tourney"... I couldn't see this happening on a version like brawl+ where combos/teching/DI will require much more practice. In the end he could still be broken and need some minor nerfs, but I certainly am not worried he will dominate it completely. He is still great though.

Also in talks of jiggly's down B becoming more powerful. I have no big issue comboing into it from 20 -35 % for a kill as it is now, and I can pull off a few 0-death sleeps without them escaping hitstun at 9%. I think it is pretty balanced now to the point where if you DI/tech bad you will be killed, but the combos into it are hard to pull off consistently so there is a lot of risk. That's just my take though. She is my main on brawl+ along with fox/falcon, so I spend most my time on them atm.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Yea sonic is someone to fear although hopefully the reduced hitlag will make it easier to combo sonic since we have the code. If you have any matches you want uploaded, send it to me and I'll do a couple. We need some sonic representation

Sure I could send you a few matches.

Will the replays still work correctly even though I don't have an SD card (and thus don't have the codes on myself)?

The codes that were being used were

No auto ledgesnap
Auto L-canceling
Hitstun 10% (I don't know how this translates into numbers)
dash dancing
Shieldstun...I think it was 4 strong and 3 weak.
We had a gravity mod too, but I'm not exactly how high it was. It didn't affect upward gravity at all (I was still able to go just as high with Sonic as in normal brawl), and we only fell a little bit faster. I think it was 1.1, but I'm not sure.

Anyway, in you're reply can you tell me how I'd send you matches (I've never done it before)?

 

[Revven]

Will the replays still work correctly even though I don't have an SD card (and thus don't have the codes on myself)?

Yes, just as long as kupo uses the same codes as the replays used, he will be able to view them correctly and thus record them.

 

[Deleted member]

the requested bump

 

[goodoldganon]

So I'm not sure if this will help or anything, but I figured I'd post my thoughts and experiences with the characters. I use the following code set:

* No Tripping
* No Replay Time Limit
* Auto L-Cancel
* Hitstun at 8.75%
* Lagless Ledges
* No Decay with Fresh
* Up and Down Gravity (Whatever is in the OP)
* Dash Dance
* 60% Hitlag
* Shield Damage (from the OP)
* Shield Stun 13/22/5
* Crouch Canceling


Mario- Is now a combo machine. Much better then before. Has a lot of potential but still feels very middle of the road. An excellent character to use as a balance point.

Luigi- Not enough experience here

Peach- She's much better. She has trouble killing but she can wrack damage up very well now. Her aerials are nasty. Have we considered giving her second jump some vertical recovery?

Bowser- Atrocious. He's back to being like he was in Melee, which isn't good. He has very low combo potential, gets juggled very easily, is really slow, and the list goes on. I'd hate to leave a character as pure crap, but it'll be tough to buff him up IMO.

Link- Besides his awful recovery, he's an overall very solid character. The bombs do good stun and can lead to low percent combos. His pansy boots are also quite good combo moves. It would be nice to let his hookshot hook to any surface ala Melee, but it can't happen

Zelda- She's didn't seem to really change from my experience. What worked with her in vanilla still works in B+.

Shiek- F-tilt, nuff said.

Toon Link- He's way too floaty for the new system. He still has a lot of things going for him, but it can be tough to string aerials together (minus his B-air off course). If we really get into character specific changes, I'd say making Tink less float would be something to look into.

Ganondorf- He probably has the most combo potential of any of the heavies, DK comes close. He is still easy to spam projectiles on and easy to juggle, but if he catches you it's almost always gonna end in a combo for massive damage. Two or three good combos and he's ready to kill. His F-air went from a useless move and is now back to it's Melee glory.

DK- DK had a great spacing game and he still does. His tilts have great combo potential as does his down-B. The down cargo throw to spike seems to be working a lot more then it did before, so that might be due to hitstun on it. If that's the case, it's a little too good because it's very easy to set up.

Diddy- Diddy has sick combos. Everything seems to link to something now. Besides his light weight, I really feel Diddy has nothing against him, maybe range I guess. Characters with a good spacing game are trouble for Diddy, but if he gets someone he can rack damage like a fiend. Might be too good, but we'll see.

Yoshi- He is still way too floaty. The eggs have sick stun on them but otherwise I really feel is kinda weak. If we get a DJC code I think he'll be a whole lot better.

Wario- Wario is great. His d-air is even better then before and his up-air has some good combo potential. His d-throw links to a F-smash at almost all percents which is a great finisher. Overall I think he is one of B+ best characters.

Samus- Long story short, is she can build damage but can't finish. A specific SH code for her is also almost required. We need to buff one of her smash attacks or her charge shot to have decent KO potential.

Pit, Olimar, Ice Climbers, ROB, Lucas, Pikachu, and Jigglypuff- Not much experience here.

MK- He's still too good and he feels even better. I'd say we just up and ban him instead of messing with lines of code to balance him. Then again I'm biased cause I hate the Kirby series.

D3- He has some all right combo potential but I feel he went from best Big Guy to 2nd worst. Maybe I forgot the timing or something but it seems his d-throw chaingrab is gone or at least much tougher to do. Either way, I feel he is all right, but is one of the few characters that got worse with B+.

Fox- Basically, when we fix the tech window Fox should be brought down a few notches, which is probably a good thing. His u-tilt is a nasty combo starter. If you connect with a d-air at the start of an opponents fresh life, it seems to be pretty much a guaranteed 50-60%. That might be something worth looking into.

Falco- Maybe I'm no good with him, but he seems worse. I can't really figure out very many good combos with him. I also can't really combo into any KO moves. As I said, it's probably cause I'm bad with him.

Wolf- Much like Falco, I'm finding trouble comboing with him. His u-tilt is a good combo starter as is the n-air though. He still is a solid character and the no-decay helps his game a lot.

C. Falcon- It's almost like the whole B+ thing started because people wanted the Captain to be better. Like Fox, once we fix the tech window he'll be brought back down a few levels. Comboing into the knee feels oh so good.

P. Trainer- Playing him with the switching is still a nifty idea in theory, poor in practice. Also, none of them seem to play any different. I feel the no-stam and seperate pokemon code will be required to make him a playable character.

Lucario- He already had combo in Vanilla, they have just now become easier to string together. Like Snake, he can play a mean defensive game still. I like the idea of the higher the damage the more knockback you have, but it ruins his low percent game. Is it worth trying to figure out a happy medium to leave his aura powers?

Marth- Still a shade of his Melee glory, but he has gotten some nice buffs with B+. His f-air spam seems less godly but his n-air seems a lot better and more useful. With the shield damage code his B does too much shield damage. It only needs to be half charged at that too. What's Marth's aerial killer, cause I'm finding he can have a tad trouble KOing without a d-throw to F-Smash.

Ike- He needed these buffs. His n-air is still godly and his f-air is a great spacer. Maybe it's just me, but his n-air to a moving up-smash seems like a great combo. He doesn't have the combo potential like G-Dorf and DK have so that keeps him down a bit. Overall though, I feel he's good where he is.

Snake- Hasn't changed much from B+ but that's not a bad thing. He plays differently than any other character and I really like that about him. He's still really good, undoubtedly one of the best characters, but he's not unbeatable. If the concenus is we have to nerf him then just nerf the u-tilt, otherwise I feel he is fine.

Sonic- SHFF F-air is almost too good. How do you guys DI out of the u-throw to avoid getting combo'd further? Really there is no point to writing anything up about Sonic, he a whole lot better now and anyone with two eyes can see his amazing buffs.

A lot of writing and some of it was pointless but I hope a few of these might help out the code designers. I really feel the only two codes I'll probably be adding to Brawl will be the larger tech window and a nerf to Shiek's f-tilt. Maybe in another post I'll detail why I feel my code set really works best.

 

[leafgreen386]

Gonna c/p over what I posted in the other thread.

Buffing bowser would be really easy, guys. I don't know why we keep trying to come up with all these roundabout solutions when the only thing you really need to change is his upB. It's already a good move to use out of shield, but at the moment it doesn't really lead into anything aterward. Fix it so that it has the proper trajectory/launch speed to combo uairs from (and maybe a second upB at low percents), which would inevitably lead into a fair or bair finisher. We may also need to lower the lag on it to make this possible, maybe even giving him the ability to JC it (grounded version only, of course, unless we wanted to make his recovery amazing).

 

[MuBa]

If we could make Fox jump out of his shine maybe we could get more Melee players in this game...

Mario - Could use a faster fireball. Since I use to be a Doc main, I would always approach with pills. I think we could do the same with that here. And a more powerful/faster Fair would be nice too.

Falcon - He needs increased speed and momentum. That's what made him so good in Melee.

Dedede - Better aerial momentum.

Bowser - Faster execution of attacks.

MK - Nerf his KO moves and make his attacks stale.

 

[matt4300]

OK before i start posting on balances i would like ot know where you stand paprika. do you
A: want to buff the bad chars to a point that they are playable but still not viable
B: buff the bad chars and nerf the ones that are too good makeing everyone about midtier
C: (my favorite) buff the bad chars until there as viable as say marth or falcon.

might i suggest something paprika.. why dont you start at the first char an go down the line ... gather ideas and post them under the chars name starting with mario and going down. this way we arent all running around like chickens with our heads cut off.

post marios name then we will all disscus what buffs he should get and the best ones that benifit the him but dont break him will be gathered under his name... after we are reasonably satisfyed we go onto luigi... ect.

mario. luigi
AAA: 8 AAA: 9 (luigis is much easyer to hit with completely)
utilt: 6 utilt:8 (luigs combos easier)
ftilt: 7 ftilt: 9
dtilt: 4 dtilt:8 (luigis trips)

usmash: 12 usmash: 13 (luigis combos easier)
dsmash: 13 dsmash: 14 (luigis is faster)
fsmash kills at: 122 112 (luigis is faster and harder to DI)

fair: 11 fair:9 (luigis is MUCH faster and easier to combo with but doest spike)
dair: 11(on adverage does 3/4%) dair: 11 (luigis is much safer much faster and can kill)
uair: 10 uair11
nair: 9 nair 12 (LOL luigis is MUCH easier to combo with knocks you strait up and is a kill move!)
bair: 11 bair 11 (luigi has more range and can use it 3 times midair rather than 2)

all that and luigi can jump higher recover better. get out of hitstun faster. and spam kill moves faster...

WHO THE **** BALANCED THIS GAME!!!!!! @o@ WTF @%*$&!!!!!

EDIT: vvvv oh yeah...

 

[MuBa]

WHO THE **** BALANCED THIS GAME!!!!!! @o@ WTF @%*$&!!!!!

 

[InvincibleAgent]

Link's bombs should have more knockback. Agree he should have better recovery. His smashes should have less start-up lag.

 

[trojanpooh]

Mario's fireballs need more range

 

[thesage]

Mewtwo needs to be buffed. He's like nonexistent in brawl.

Srsly, all I really wanna know about Ness is if Dair -> pkt2 really works or not. From what I've seen his u-smash is a combo machine and dd'ing makes his d-smash more usefull. Faster falling speed means he probably can combo with uthrow or dthrow. I wish I had more than one source on this (I'm getting an sd card next weekend hopefully).

 

[storm92]

OK before i start posting on balances i would like ot know where you stand paprika. do you
A: want to buff the bad chars to a point that they are playable but still not viable
B: buff the bad chars and nerf the ones that are too good makeing everyone about midtier
C: (my favorite) buff the bad chars until there as viable as say marth or falcon.

might i suggest something paprika.. why dont you start at the first char an go down the line ... gather ideas and post them under the chars name starting with mario and going down. this way we arent all running around like chickens with our heads cut off.

post marios name then we will all disscus what buffs he should get and the best ones that benifit the him but dont break him will be gathered under his name... after we are reasonably satisfyed we go onto luigi... ect.

mario. luigi
AAA: 8 AAA: 9 (luigis is much easyer to hit with completely)
utilt: 6 utilt:8 (luigs combos easier)
ftilt: 7 ftilt: 9
dtilt: 4 dtilt:8 (luigis trips)

usmash: 12 usmash: 13 (luigis combos easier)
dsmash: 13 dsmash: 14 (luigis is faster)
fsmash kills at: 122 112 (luigis is faster and harder to DI)

fair: 11 fair:9 (luigis is MUCH faster and easier to combo with but doest spike)
dair: 11(on adverage does 3/4%) dair: 11 (luigis is much safer much faster and can kill)
uair: 10 uair11
nair: 9 nair 12 (LOL luigis is MUCH easier to combo with knocks you strait up and is a kill move!)
bair: 11 bair 11 (luigi has more range and can use it 3 times midair rather than 2)

all that and luigi can jump higher recover better. get out of hitstun faster. and spam kill moves faster...

WHO THE **** BALANCED THIS GAME!!!!!! @o@ WTF @%*$&!!!!!

EDIT: vvvv oh yeah...

He's a different char with different moves and techniques, we're not trying to make them alike.
Just buff his recovery and maybe make Fireballs last longer, it's not a big deal.
He can still combo great and edgeguard.

 

[matt4300]

He's a different char with different moves and techniques, we're not trying to make them alike.
Just buff his recovery and maybe make Fireballs last longer, it's not a big deal.
He can still combo great and edgeguard.

i wasent saying they should be alike i was saying how gay it was that he is better in everyway even in what mario is good at edgeguarding and comboing.
some easy fixes that would make mario as viable as say falcon or marth is
1. a slight damage increase.
2. faster fireballz
3. increase vertical and horizantal recovery on up-b

then he would be good... he would do as much damage as luigi, have a usfull projectile spam (like most of the high tiers with projectiles) and not get gimped so easily.

but i would probley say that most of the worse chars need a damage increase to make up for there lack of combo-abilty.

just giving him a better recovery and projectile isnet going to make him rack up damage as fast as falco or falcon

 

[Blank Mauser]

Sonic is better, but I wouldn't consider him top tier. He has techchasing down easily, and mindgames are multiplied with MAD (Assuming people are still considering it) but he still has horrible priority and bad kill moves. The Uair combos can be DI'd out of, at most I can land Uair to Bair on a few people. His Dtilt can combo into most of his aerials, none really help for killing.

Techchasing and a few SHFFL combos are his buffs, but compared to the buffs of others its not much. With MAD he can be a very tricky and technical character though.

 

[Eaode]

MK:
Nerf Dsmash knockback
somehow nerf Tornado

Link:
more horizontal movement on Up-B

Samus:
More knockback to missiles/charge shot

Bowser:
Melee-speed Up-B (maybe with some followups? Uair possible?)

Sheik:
Increased Knockback on Ftilt

I think that's all that needs to be done really.


EDIT: MAD is not gonna get in lol.

 

[Silfa]

i wasent saying they should be alike i was saying how gay it was that he is better in everyway even in what mario is good at edgeguarding and comboing.

Lol, when did Luigi get a cape and FLUDD?

 

[matt4300]

MK:
Nerf Dsmash knockback
somehow nerf Tornado

Link:
more horizontal movement on Up-B

Samus:
More knockback to missiles/charge shot

Bowser:
Melee-speed Up-B (maybe with some followups? Uair possible?)

Sheik:
Increased Knockback on Ftilt

I think that's all that needs to be done really.


EDIT: MAD is not gonna get in lol.

D: that.... would be dissapionting

meta knight would still combo like a mofo, out speed and prioritze just about everyone, and use his crazy recovery to gimp the hell out of most of the cast

link would still be out comboed , out projectiled and out speeded buy the majority of the cast

samus would still only have 2 slow kill moves and a spike

bowser would still be a projectile absorbing sandbag.... that cant combo for ****

no problems with shiek nerf...


this would be option A of my previous post.. wich is to say buff bad chars until there playable but still not viable.

Lol, when did Luigi get a cape and FLUDD?

FLUDD sucks and is rarley usfull, and hitlag reduction makes it worse.

cape is good but i would rather have a torando that helped me recover. or one of the other much better reflectors in the game

 

[leafgreen386]

Since people were talking about increasing the kb on sheik's fair in the other topic, I figure I should bring this here.

The only buffs sheik should be getting are a very slight increase in her fair's power (specifically, its base launch speed... NOT its growth rate) and maybe maybe maybe the ability to needle cancel again like in melee. Seriously, like... aerial needles are near worthless now, except maybe for edgeguarding. For the fair, it would simply be to put the opponent in the tumble from an earlier percentage. Its knockback right now is so low that if you hit with it at a low percent in the air, you're usually going to get hit back, and her nair has similar problems, and her leg is out there for a while. At least her bair tends to hit them far enough away and has enough range that you can fast fall and not get hit back most of the time. Additionally, increasing the base launch speed of the fair will enable people to tech it sooner, so it'll just make the move more interesting in general.

Other than that, she's already pretty good. After we increase the base launch speed of the fitlt to make it go into the tumble sooner (personally I'd like to also lower the growth rate of it very slightly, so it can still be used for combos at higher percents after the base launch speed increase), she could probably use the very slight buff to her fair. The needle thing might be taking it a bit too far, but really... I think all projectile specials should cancel upon landing. It's stupid that they don't.

 

[kupo15]

but really... I think all projectile specials should cancel upon landing. It's stupid that they don't.

Hmm, pit will be happy with that...

 

[storm92]

Movement during specials?

 

[Eaode]

D: that.... would be dissapionting

meta knight would still combo like a mofo, out speed and prioritze just about everyone, and use his crazy recovery to gimp the hell out of most of the cast

link would still be out comboed , out projectiled and out speeded buy the majority of the cast

samus would still only have 2 slow kill moves and a spike

bowser would still be a projectile absorbing sandbag.... that cant combo for ****

no problems with shiek nerf...


this would be option A of my previous post.. wich is to say buff bad chars until there playable but still not viable.



FLUDD sucks and is rarley usfull, and hitlag reduction makes it worse.

cape is good but i would rather have a torando that helped me recover. or one of the other much better reflectors in the game

Due to being limited by line space, I assumed we were only fixing the extreme problems and not trying to rebalance the whole game. If we were doing the latter, I would have posted a much longer list xD

 

[Silfa]

FLUDD sucks and is rarley usfull, and hitlag reduction makes it worse.

cape is good but i would rather have a torando that helped me recover. or one of the other much better reflectors in the game

Ask a Mario main whether they think FLUDD sucks or not and you'll get a different answer. You say that cape is good, right? FLUDD can make it a lot, lot easier to get a cape off in many situations. Sure, by just looking at the move itself and not looking at the possibilities the move creates, it's not anything special, but you can't look at it that way. FLUDD isn't a move that you use on it's own - it's one that sets up opportunities that can lead to kills.

As for cape not being a very good reflector, that's true, but it's not what makes it good. How many other reflectors have the properties of the cape? You can use cape on someone who's used their up B, change their momentum so they're then falling away from the stage while still in the freefall state. Other reflectors don't let the opponent remain in freefall (in other words, they don't get they're up B back the way another reflector would renew it). It still has the ability to reflect, despite not being as good as say, Fox's shine, but that's not the main reason why the cape is such a good move.

 

[leafgreen386]

@Eaode: Well, with the whole geckoOS getting updated thing, we may be able to fit in a lot more character fixes, so don't count that out just yet.

 

[matt4300]

Due to being limited by line space, I assumed we were only fixing the extreme problems and not trying to rebalance the whole game. If we were doing the latter, I would have posted a much longer list xD

well leaf green beat me to it but the line limit might not be a problem for long

@silfa: is fludd as usfull as luigis torando? does it do good damage. help recover. and help combo? no... its only good for 1 thing and only if the enemy has a piss poor recovery to begin with.

and cape as i said is good but there are much better reflector AND attack flipers on MUCH better chars like fox falco wolfs reflectors... or pits attack fliper, yet mario who isent that good to begin with gets the short end of the stick in both ways

 

[goodoldganon]

Matt, we appreciate the intensity of your debate to keep the game as balanced as possible, but you gotta realize: We aren't gonna make a perfectly balanced game. Mario might be worse then Luigi, but Mario is still a decent character. Sure he has flaws but he's not out of balance.

Bowser is atrocious and out of balance.
MK is too good and is out of balance.
Link's recovery is mediocre at best and is therefore out of balance.
Shiek's F-tilt is too good and is therefore... well you get the point.

I'd love for Mario to be better. I'd love to have a balanced fighting game of 39 other characters, but sad fact is it won't happen. What we need to do first is decide what needs immediate attention.

 

[storm92]

Link's recovery is horrid at best and is therefore out of balance.

Fixed.

But really, you outlined it well enough.
Just because we want certain chars to get better doesn't mean it's good for the sake of balancing.

 

[Dark Sonic]

but he still has horrible priority and bad kill moves.

Sonic's f-smash and bair both have ridiculous disjointedness (as well as range), and are safe on block. And he has better priority than half of the cast. I really wish people would get over this "Sonic has no range/priority/kill moves" stereotype that has been proven wrong months ago.

You can literally just pivot f-smash characters through their attacks, and you say Sonic has bad kill moves? You see Metaknight do a retreating fair? Pivot f-smash. Tornado, run away and dash cancel f-smash (through the ****ing tornado). Fox is above you about to dair? Pivot and start charging an f-smash.

In fact, you might as well use pivot f-smash to rack damage while you're at it (thank you no stale moves) and still kill with it since it's just that easy to land f-smash.

Sonic has no problems killing.

The Uair combos can be DI'd out of, at most I can land Uair to Bair on a few people. His Dtilt can combo into most of his aerials, none really help for killing.

Maybe at high percentages. At low percentages you can chain fairs together, link uairs after that, and then use your side B->jump to chase their DI for one or two more uairs. Then you just set up a juggle trap (since Sonic's uair outranges every dair in the game except Ike and DDD)

Techchasing and a few SHFFL combos are his buffs, but compared to the buffs of others its not much. With MAD he can be a very tricky and technical character though.

How about safe kill moves, better edgeguarding, dash dance mixups, dash cancel mixups, faster damage racking, and actual kill setups (in addition to tech chasing and shfflcombos like you've said).

Sonic is easily top tier material.

I don't think he needs to be nerfed at all (totally biased opinion), but really every single change that has been made has helped Sonic tremendously (Except upgrav,which my friends and I don't use anyway).


/Sonic is top tier rant.

 

[matt4300]

Matt, we appreciate the intensity of your debate to keep the game as balanced as possible, but you gotta realize: We aren't gonna make a perfectly balanced game. Mario might be worse then Luigi, but Mario is still a decent character. Sure he has flaws but he's not out of balance.

Bowser is atrocious and out of balance.
MK is too good and is out of balance.
Link's recovery is mediocre at best and is therefore out of balance.
Shiek's F-tilt is too good and is therefore... well you get the point.

I'd love for Mario to be better. I'd love to have a balanced fighting game of 39 other characters, but sad fact is it won't happen. What we need to do first is decide what needs immediate attention.

i do realize that it wont ever be a perfectly balanced game. thats literally impossible but some things are just blatent. im not saying everything everyone has should be as good as everyone eles im just saying that makeing small buffs on bad chars is completely pointless as they still wont be viable. you use BIG buffs on bowser link or samus and they will still not be as good as game and watch or marth but they will be close and close is all a smash fan can hope for... buff 1 move isent close its pointless and does nothing to help a char when they get ***** anyway.

link completely sucks compared to toonlink. tlink does more damage in a shorter time. combos like crazy. has an amazing recovery, and has super fast kill moves... all of this is fine as long as link does alot more damage then him and has better projectiles... but as it stands link doesnt he does like 2 points more damage and projectiles that are just barley better if at all ... all of this is imba.

sigh what im saying is we should use BIG buffs on bad chars to make them not bad. they wont be broken or even close, they still have the same crappy moves they just need to be more usfull. most bad chars arent bad becuase of one move or a bad recovery there bad becuase jsut about every thing is done better on another char

 

[kupo15]

Sonic is easily top tier material.

This is a problem...must fix this!!! jk

i do realize that it wont ever be a perfectly balanced game. thats literally impossible but some things are just blatent. im not saying everything everyone has should be as good as everyone eles im just saying that makeing small buffs on bad chars is completely pointless as they still wont be viable. you use BIG buffs on bowser link or samus and they will still not be as good as game and watch or marth but they will be close and close is all a smash fan can hope for... buff 1 move isent close its pointless and does nothing to help a char when they get ***** anyway.

link completely sucks compared to toonlink. tlink does more damage in a shorter time. combos like crazy. has an amazing recovery, and has super fast kill moves... all of this is fine as long as link does alot more damage then him and has better projectiles... but as it stands link doesnt he does like 2 points more damage and projectiles that are just barley better if at all ... all of this is imba.

Matt, it sounds to me that you think everyone (exaggeration) is terrible. I think we need to stop with saying characters are terrible if we don't know much about them (see: Sonic) unless its noticeable like mk or sheik. I don't know what half of your accusations are based off of when the next person responds to completely counter your claims.... (hitlag makes FLUDD worse???? What?)

Just because you can't play them well doesn't mean they completely suck....

 

[Shadic]

Nerf Snake's F and Utilt.
Make Link and Toon Link's Up-B on the ground instantly charge.
Give Samus better Knockback on missiles and charge beam.
Improve the knockback of Jigglypuff's Rest.
Lower gravity for Link. (Would also help his recovery)
Double-Jump Cancel for Ness, Yoshi, Lucas.

 

[goodoldganon]

Dark Sonic, since B+ I have realized how HORRIBLY false we were to believe Sonic had bad priority. And without move decay his Kill moves are that much better. Sonic is top tier no doubt. Question is, do we need to nerf him?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

matt, everything you mentioned is what makes those characters unique. there's a difference between a character's weakness and a flaw. a weakness is something like being too light, while a flaw is something like samus' charge shot not killing early enough. homogenizing characters so that they're all well rounded is a stupid, stupid way to go. that would make the game boring, easy and have no lifespan. if we are to make changes, they need to be baby steps, and to things that are blatantly broken. things that come to mind are metaknight's dsmash being to strong, sheik's ftilt spam or (once again) samus' charge shot strength. link will always have bad recovery and not combo as easily as toon link. this is simply how those characters are.

these weaknesses are what makes the characters unique and it's up to the player to make use of them.

 

[matt4300]

This is a problem...must fix this!!! jk


Matt, it sounds to me that you think everyone (exaggeration) is terrible. I think we need to stop with saying characters are terrible if we don't know much about them (see: Sonic) unless its noticeable like mk or sheik. I don't know what half of your accusations are based off of when the next person responds to completely counter your claims.... (hitlag makes FLUDD worse???? What?)

Just because you can't play them well doesn't mean they completely suck....

i have only been talking about my mains ^_^' i dont pretend to know how to play as yoshi or lucas. look at my sig those are my mains, and only ness is a viable touney choice atm (notice i dont talk about him)

and about the fludd thing. the reason i talk about mario is becuase one of the guys i play with mains mario and he used to use fludd right when i attacked and my move would get caught in hitlag giveing him a free quick hit. without hitlag it just pushes you back

matt, everything you mentioned is what makes those characters unique. there's a difference between a character's weakness and a flaw. a weakness is something like being too light, while a flaw is something like samus' charge shot not killing early enough. homogenizing characters so that they're all well rounded is a stupid, stupid way to go. that would make the game boring, easy and have no lifespan. if we are to make changes, they need to be baby steps, and to things that are blatantly broken. things that come to mind are metaknight's dsmash being to strong, sheik's ftilt spam or (once again) samus' charge shot strength. link will always have bad recovery and not combo as easily as toon link. this is simply how those characters are.

these weaknesses are what makes the characters unique and it's up to the player to make use of them.

i dident say that link should be able to combo or should have a great recovery i just said that he should have something to make up for them like more damage.
you can say that makeing everyone well rounded is bad but isent marth well rounded? isnet diddy? or game and watch? do they even have flaws? or weaknesses? they might have something that hurts them like diddys range. but they all have something to make up for that. like diddys great approching and movement stopping bannanas.

i hope you understand what i mean v_v'