Brawl+ character balance discussion

[Jiangjunizzy]

i think it would be better if he could cancel his uptilt with a B-move or something or another attack. but not shield.

 

[goodoldganon]

Sonic, I think it's really just a Ganon mains wet dream. Wind effects are weird and rarely seen since only 2 characters have them. I'm not 100% sure how to answer your questions but I know this:

If a character is thrown horizontally and they fly into the 'windbox' it stops all momentum previously applied and applys the new wind momentum. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[Lemonwater]

It would be awesome if it was just like Captain Falcon's but still had the vacuum effect rather than the ******** charging.

 

[storm92]

i think it would be better if he could cancel his uptilt with a B-move or something or another attack. but not shield.

Just have a large amount of cool-down so it can't be used for mindgames where Ganon holds a Utilt, the opponent rushes in to attack, and Ganon shieldgrabs the opponent into a combo.

 

[Team Giza]

shield cancelable up+tilt *drool*... that is all...

 

[Shell]

It was a rough idea. I'm open to any other ideas for making the utilt more than a "once-every-six-matches-or-so" kind of attack.

Consider: Snake's f-smash has very similar killing power to Ganon's u-tilt, but can be executed very quickly, or charged for a high flexibility in timing. Ganon has a vacuum (borders on gimmick) and must execute a glacially slow attack.

Any other solutions, anyone? Of course, my ideal solution would be to replace his f-smash with a chargeable utilt-style attack, but of course that's just a pipe-dream due to lines. At least do something to differentiate it more from the warlock punch (1/2 power, 2x speed?). Again, this is just an afterthought compared to his grab & jab, but it makes for interesting discussion.

 

[Johnny Pteran]

This is hilarious, it really is. Apparently, most of you guys can make games better than the development team. All these problems are so easily fixed, too. They must've been really sloppy when they were making Brawl, I guess.

 

[matt4300]

This is hilarious, it really is. Apparently, most of you guys can make games better than the development team. All these problems are so easily fixed, too. They must've been really sloppy when they were making Brawl, I guess.

no but im sure we can balance it better

 

[shanus]

Don't go too overboard on all the ideas yet. Some are obvious, but remember the codes are not done yet! Things such as air momentum will change a lot.

 

[Anth0ny]

Fox can jump out of shine!
Wario's grab release obviously needs to be fixed.
Falco/DDD can't chaingrab (or is this already done with the hitstun code?)
Game and Watch either a bit weaker or a bit slower.

Just my two cents.

 

[goodoldganon]

As I said earlier, we need to concentrate on immediate character FIXES. Ganon's u-tilt being useable would be great but lets worry about the big stuff first. Instead of just repeating my line over and over I guess I'll give a suggestion.

Lucario's aura powers are a nifty idea but there are some flaws in the plan. It limits his low percentage kill game is my biggest complaint. It would be unfortunate to lose that special thing about him, but what do we think of giving Lucario a permanently set aura power modifier? We'd have to find some sort of a happy medium but I think it's worth a shot.

-It gets rid of the randomness of fighting or playing as Lucario
-Opens up his kill potential options when he comes back from a death
-Doesn't give him the wild hitboxes when he is at a high percent

What do you think?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

lucario is extremely good in brawl+. try him out.

 

[Shell]

This is hilarious, it really is. Apparently, most of you guys can make games better than the development team. All these problems are so easily fixed, too. They must've been really sloppy when they were making Brawl, I guess.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

@Anth0ny: Fox is pretty balanced right now, I'd be hesitant to buff him with a jump canceled shine.

We all agree that all grab-releases need to be fixed, and yes, the hitstun code removes Falco/DDD's chaingrabs.

As far as nerfing G&W, I'd wait on nerfs unless it's pretty broken (MK / Sheik f-tilt infinite)


Edit: Yeah, Lucario is one of the best, in my opinion. I could see maaaybe evening out aura for the sake of predictability, but he doesn't need any buffs. Paprika killer, what do you think as a Lucario main?

 

[goodoldganon]

lucario is extremely good in brawl+. try him out.

True, so opening his low game kill options might be too much, but I was just throwing ideas out there. I really just hate having Lucario get one of 'those' lives and he is nearly unapproachable with the massive hitboxes.

Also, I doubt anyone would consider him OP but it's an option to tune him down as well...

 

[storm92]

This is hilarious, it really is. Apparently, most of you guys can make games better than the development team. All these problems are so easily fixed, too. They must've been really sloppy when they were making Brawl, I guess.

Please don't post here if you don't have anything constructive to say.
If you couldn't tell, the phase right now is that people are kind of just throwing ideas out there.

 

[Shell]

I'm heading to bed, but I encourage anyone to approach tweaking with this mindset:

-Pick the one, simplest change that would make the biggest difference to your character. This will likely be some sort of animation speed change or knockback adjustment.
(For Ganon it's the Lightning Jab)

-Pick one or two more changes that aren't as crucial, but would help if line length allowed.
(Grab is important, Utilt less so but could use fixing)

-Justify your choices with specific examples
(Jab/Grab's role in shift from defense to offense)

I think that in addition to Ganon, Link, Jiggz, Yoshi, Samus, Bowser, and possibly Mario could use a tweak here or there. I was a Ganondorf main in Melee, so it's easy for me to see what needs fixing. It would be nice for someone that mains or did main one of the above characters to analyze them as I have Ganon.

 

[Panix]

I think we should leave the coding to the professional. The only thing I think needs fixing is falcon's hitstun and maybe a better sweet spot on his KoJ.

 

[Shadic]

This is hilarious, it really is. Apparently, most of you guys can make games better than the development team. All these problems are so easily fixed, too. They must've been really sloppy when they were making Brawl, I guess.

You're worthless, you really are. Apparently, all you can do is join a topic and complain about how people are brainstorming ways to better balance the characters. Other Brawl+ topics must have evaded your attention before, I guess.

And SHeLL, I'll try and get a decent write-up on my ideas later. Some are fairly obvious though.

Panix: Look around you: Brawl+ topics have been around for a while now. We've been changing this game in the past, character balancing is just the next step.

 

[polyopulis]

really, there shouldn't be any discussion about balancing characters in brawl+ yet. only once there is a standard rule set can we judge how balanced/imbalanced the characters are and start the discussion on balancing.

 

[goodoldganon]

Some things will be unanimous though Poly. For example, it's pretty much agreed that Shiek's F-tilt is too good and Link's recovery is too bad. I feel this topic is a place to shout out some ideas here and there. Most will get ignored but there will be a gem here or there.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Actually, I really like the cancelable uptilt idea for Ganon, I just think you're focusing on the wrong kind of cancel. Shield canceling is a very powerful kind of cancel because of how much stuff you can do from a shield, and how quickly all of that comes out. But if you were to give it say, IASA frames after frame 25 or so (4 more than Marth's d-tilt), then the move could become extremely usefull, without being gamebreaking.

 

[polyopulis]

Some things will be unanimous though Poly. For example, it's pretty much agreed that Shiek's F-tilt is too good and Link's recovery is too bad. I feel this topic is a place to shout out some ideas here and there. Most will get ignored but there will be a gem here or there.

in that case, i would like to see all ssb64 characters brought up above bottom tier, and i think link should be above d tier and about equal, if not better than, toon link. this because link has never been above low tier and i think a lot of people really like the original link (me included)

 

[Lemonwater]

Very true, but buffing him excessively would be unfair. Plus, it's sort of cool to use a trash tier character to beat everyone, even though I personally don't believe Link is trash. I <3 Link

In a game with so many factors, it's impossible to balance every character, really. But I think with enough effort they won't have gamebreaking, glaring weaknesses (like Link's recovery and Ness' PK Thunder), or any overly powerful things (Metaknight's everything and any character who can chaingrab so that it's hard to escape until you're at like 70%).

 

[Team Giza]

If possible we should make it so that Link does not have any landing animation after his dair and uair. This would significantly improve his approach (especially because of his falling speed) and a less punishable KO move. I think this would make Link similar to his ssb64 form but quite a bit scarier overall. I feel its better to make changes to Link to justify his bad recovery instead of just making it better.

Bowser should have IASA frames on his ground up+B starting around half way through. This would give him a much better punishment game and since the up+B was such a staple of his gameplay in melee it seems quite fitting. I am not sure if this will be enough for him but it seems like a good idea.

 

[Samuelson]

CF's Knee is super easy to land in Brawl +

I would make Dsmash slower and have MK's shuttle loop have half the knockback. Fthrow, Fair, Ftilt, Uair, Utilt and Usmash can all be followed up with Shuttle Loop which usually ends in a KO because of how strong it's knock back is. That is why i think it should have about half the knock back. There should be some more moves that out prioritize the tornado...MK's 9 Hammer shouldn't be out prioritized by nado lol.

 

[matt4300]

in that case, i would like to see all ssb64 characters brought up above bottom tier, and i think link should be above d tier and about equal, if not better than, toon link. this because link has never been above low tier and i think a lot of people really like the original link (me included)

**** strait... now im going to take shells advice

Now im sure everyone agrees that link needs more help than The Gan Man so...

Link:

Link doesnt have a problem with range, priority, or damage. Its his poor KO power and slow KO options that need fixing. His smashes dont kill until the 110-150 range . That and he only has one risky gimping option of the stage. Combined with his weight and awfull recovery he shouldnt even attempt it ... SO he completely relys on his smashes and Dair for killz..

When fighting any of the 20 or so better chars in the game your best option is to pepper them with projectiles and quick arials until you get the enemy to a high percent... BUT now you have to go in for the kill... this is where things get frustrating. There is a much higher risk than reward for all of his kill moves. They all end slowly and are easy to see coming.. most of the time you have to get in 2 or 3 of these to seal the deal, and in attempting this link can take alot of damage, and/or die... SOOOO he needs more powerfull kill moves he NEEDS to be able to kill as fast as the rest of the cast.. becuase he cant gimp, and can easily die trying.

Links whole game is on the stage. Even his edgeguarding aside from a falling nair or back air is centerd around staying on the stage. Now this wouldnet be a problem if the whole game was on the stage, but its not , and brawl + made sure of that with codes like NASL and such... Wich is why he BADLY needs a better recovery. this would help him immensely as you all well know lol.
If he takes a hit off the stage theres a good chance he is dead ... he just falls to fast to make it back ... hes just to easy to gimp. Really do i need to give an example?

TL;DR (dont know what this means)

I say we(the coders)
- strengthen all of his smash attacks knockback makeing him KO the way a heavy char should.
- increase the horizantal AND vertical trajectory of his up-b
- increase the power of his up-b to its former glory when the new geko OS update destroys the line limit.

 

[Dan_X]

Seeing as how Sheik's tilt is likely going to be nerfed, I think it'd be fair to buffer her Fair. She needs a more reliable kill move, even with no decay on she can't land a finishing move in some cases. All she really needs is more knockback on her Fair.

Jiggly should have more knock back on rest, as even at relatively high percents it doesn't KO and that's just rediculous.

I'm not sure if this was in the OP, but Snake could use multiple nerfings-- namely on his tilts.

Samus could use quite a bit more knockback on her super missile and fully charged shot-- right now the knockback is far too low-- even at higher percents.

I can't think of anything else atm.

 

[Lemonwater]

**** strait... now im going to take shells advice

Now im sure everyone agrees that link needs more help than The Gan Man so...

Link:

Link doesnt have a problem with range, priority, or damage. Its his poor KO power and slow KO options that need fixing. His smashes dont kill until the 110-150 range . That and he only has one risky gimping option of the stage. Combined with his weight and awfull recovery he shouldnt even attempt it ... SO he completely relys on his smashes and Dair for killz..

When fighting any of the 20 or so better chars in the game your best option is to pepper them with projectiles and quick arials until you get the enemy to a high percent... BUT now you have to go in for the kill... this is where things get frustrating. There is a much higher risk than reward for all of his kill moves. They all end slowly and are easy to see coming.. most of the time you have to get in 2 or 3 of these to seal the deal, and in attempting this link can take alot of damage, and/or die... SOOOO he needs more powerfull kill moves he NEEDS to be able to kill as fast as the rest of the cast.. becuase he cant gimp, and can easily die trying.

Links whole game is on the stage. Even his edgeguarding aside from a falling nair or back air is centerd around staying on the stage. Now this wouldnet be a problem if the whole game was on the stage, but its not , and brawl + made sure of that with codes like NASL and such... Wich is why he BADLY needs a better recovery. this would help him immensely as you all well know lol.
If he takes a hit off the stage theres a good chance he is dead ... he just falls to fast to make it back ... hes just to easy to gimp. Really do i need to give an example?

TL;DR (dont know what this means)

I say we(the coders)
- strengthen all of his smash attacks knockback makeing him KO the way a heavy char should.
- increase the horizantal AND vertical trajectory of his up-b
- increase the power of his up-b to its former glory when the new geko OS update destroys the line limit.

Charging, pseudospiking Up+B on the ground FTW! (I think that's too good though....an increase in area of effect and air distance is sufficient....it's either the spiking effect or more area and damage)

We should also increase the speed he travels through the air with Up+B....its sloooooow. And if he tries to shift directions in the air with it, he merely goes up rather than changes directions, making his momentum go nowhere. He then drops to his doom.

We only need to increase the knockback of the forward smash (and possibly allow the second strike to occur a little faster). D-smash is a pretty quick and fairly beastly KO move already (though I won't complain if its knockback is slightly raised), and his u-smash is for racking up good damage, not KOing. His up tilt is the ground-based vertical launcher he uses. Otherwise he has to rely on u-air and d-air. Reduced landing lag for both would be awesome.

PS: I've killed an Olimar off the right side of FD before at 30% (he was on the stage facing me, rolling toward me). I landed a nearly fully charged second strike of f-smash as he rolled into me. He was very close to me (practically standing right on me) when the strike landed, so he got hit backward at a horizontal angle and into the blast line with knockback comparable to an uncharged smash at 80%. He didn't even have a chance to jump or use his tether. He was AT 30% at time of death. Weird...

 

[Shell]

I don't have a whole "thesis" yet, but for Link I'd probably buff his grounded Up-B before his smashes.

In melee, Link had two great options when he wanted to get in closer but still stay out of the opponents grab/jab range. If the opponent was about a sword-swing away, Link could engage mindgamez mode: If the opponent shields, then hookshot them. If they spotdodge, then use the Up-B, as the lingering frames of the spin would catch compulsive spotdodgers. Now, if you predicted wrong, you got punished, but more often than not it resulted in me (the opponent) being really paranoid. Which is good. If the move could semi-spike again, well, that'd be awesome but I doubt we'd be able to do that easily.

I agree with Team Giza's point about buffing characters with strengths rather than just throwing out their weaknesses. The lagless Uair / Dair seems like a solid way to make them safer, more effective killing / approaching / juggling moves.

If we had the lines and it was possible & necessary, I'd say increase the range for his hookshot recovery. This gives him a boost, but is still gimpable.

@Matt4300: TL;DR means "Too long; Didn't read." Used on the internetz after a long block of text to summarize in case people lacked the attention to read it.

@Orca: I don't think that Sheik needs the buff to the Fair. It's a good gimping move now and straight up kills around 140-150ish, which I think is how it should remain. Her kill moves should stay somewhat limited, in part because it's so easy for her to rack up damage (even without a tilt-lock) and in part because it encourages transforming into Zelda (a duality that they just about got right this time).

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sonic should be faster O_o

He's 2 slo.

 

[Phantom7]

Ganondorf vs Sheik... what would Ganon possibly do besides get ***** by ftilt lock?

 

[MuBa]

Pokemon Trainer - How about we give them the ability to switch Pokemons even in the air, much like Zelda/Sheik? Also infinite stamina with no switching.

 

[Shell]

I think the ability to transform during invincibility and keep invincibility would be ideal if lines and codes permitted.

 

[shanus]

I think the ability to transform during invincibility and keep invincibility would be ideal if lines and codes permitted.

No, if they choose to use their invincibility to switch, then thats what they should get.

 

[Lemonwater]

Ganondorf vs Sheik... what would Ganon possibly do besides get ***** by ftilt lock?

Man....heavy characters should have a passive chance to not flinch when hit by attacks below a certain strength.

Well, that might not be balanced as I just said it, but it could work....

 

[GameSystem]

Heavy characters are SUPPOSED to suffer less from hitstun. The code makes hitstun a constant so I think it ruins that small buff they are supposed to have. The only way to possibly fix this is to give everyone character specific hitstun based on their weights.

 

[Lemonwater]

Hmmm....maybe a recoding of hitstun based on weight then?

 

[Heavyarms2050]

m0ar knockbacks on samus' super missile and powershot

 

[GameSystem]

Some people might argue that D3 and Snake get buffed too much for this so it's all up in the air. They are already top 5 in Vanilla brawl and if we allow them to have less hitstun they'll be even gayer. I guess you could combine tier list placement with weight and make your own values.

 

[shanus]

Some people might argue that D3 and Snake get buffed too much for this so it's all up in the air. They are already top 5 in Vanilla brawl and if we allow them to have less hitstun they'll be even gayer. I guess you could combine tier list placement with weight and make your own values.

D3 is definitely not as good in B+ as he was in Vanilla. Snake at first seems excellent, but upon further review he just seems ok. Hitstun should scale based on weight, but for now its acceptable.