Brawl+ 5.0 RC1 Tactical Discussion Thread

[slimpyman]

ALR needs to be reduced.... or gained, however you want to look at it... there is no punishing dumb aerial approaches anymore. it saddens me.

 

[Shadic]

What moves? I have no trouble punishing, unless I'm a slow character that's too hard away anyways.

 

[Dark Sonic]

you mean it has an order to it, and its not random like gaw's side b?
i didn't know that lol... does peach need this anyway? and what are you suggesting?

Yeah, the first f-smash is random. But then it goes in order. What this means is that Peach players (as well as anyone else who bothers to learn it) will be able to know which version of f-smash will be next and take advantage of each version's strengths (tennis racket's low launch angle, pan's high vertical range, and golf club's long horizontal range).

It isn't a question of Peach needing it, to be honest it was just removing a fairly annoying random element in Peach's game, while trying to preserve the move's unique properties at the same time.

 

[Alphatron]

I only have trouble punishing moves that were already hard to punish in vbrawl, the near lagless ones.

Bowser's fair is now ridiculously easy to punish on landing lag(new physics kill the autocancel) and Ness PK thunder is like this too.

 

[jalued]

And this is just from the latest changelist.

EDIT: I made my stage list (a few pages back) into technicolor!

EDITEDIT: ok. Results of Lylat Cruise testing:

-1) There are four backgrounds: Corneria, asteroid field, battle, and one where there's a bunch of small asteroids and a few small ships flying around. I will be calling that last one "#4". This is fact -1 because we knew this before the game came out.
0) You cannot go through the same transformation twice in a row. That should be obvious, and thus gets the distinction of being fact 0.
1) The ship's path is COMPLETELY NON-RANDOM. It is directly linked to each of the four backgrounds. On each, there is precisely ONE path that the ship takes.
2) To the best of my knowledge, each of the asteroid field, the battle, and #4 have 2 different start points and end points. All of these points are along the same line. If S and E are Start and End, then the paths for these three look like S1..........S2.............................E1..........E2. Just because you start at S1 doesnt necessarily mean you will end at E1.
3) The Corneria background is always the same: The ship comes out of the warp, leans to one side and stabilizes (several consecutive incerasingly small leans), plunges into the planet's atmosphere, leans to one side and stabilizes again, stays straight for about 20 seconds, comes out of the atmosphere, leans to one side and stabilizes for the third time, then quickly warps. The time between warps is approximately 38 seconds.
4) I didnt bother to time the other locations, nor will I write an explanation of the ship's movement for them. Fact 3 took long enough to figure out as-is. However, I know they will take around 30-50 seconds based on which start-end combo is used.

so whats u suggesting hppens to lylat? and well done, that must have taken a while to obtain

 

[kupo15]

ALR needs to be reduced.... or gained, however you want to look at it... there is no punishing dumb aerial approaches anymore. it saddens me.

I know what you mean. But I think the main problem is that the "safe" moves that could be shffled in vbrawl have even less lag time as well. (Ike nair, fox dair, mario bair uair ect.....)


Let us compare Marth because they seemed to be the only boards that found landing lag with the debug mode so we can compare him to melee:

Landing lag

Vbrawl Marth

Uair
8 Frames

Nair
8 Frames

Fair
8 frames

Dair
32 frames

Bair
21 frames

Melee Marth

()= l canceled

Uair
15 frames (7 frames)

Nair
15 frames (7 frames)

Fair
15 frames (7 frames)

Dair
32 frames (16 frames)

Bair
24 frames (12 frames)

So as you can see, Vbrawl Marth already has 3 aerials with ALR (or auto l canceled). Brawl+ has further reduced all his aerials which means that his 'l canceled' aerials are even more reduced. What WBR should do is only apply ALR to the moves that are NOT ALRed in vbrawl. In Marth's case, this would be the Dair and Bair. This applies to a lot of other characters than just marth.


Another thing I would suggest is that the soft landing animation is replaced with hard landing. This will give ADes some landing lag so that they can be a little more balanced.

 

[shanus]

this will probably get me murdered, but if you have manual L-cancel you actually need to think to press it or not as all these AC aerials result in no lag reduction (which is nice) but you put up your shield too (yay for thought)


however, lets just imagine that I didn't post that

 

[kupo15]

And seeing how Brawl/plus makes use of AC aerials much more than melee does, l canceling really isn't always the best option. (Why would you l cancel Ganon's thunderstorming?) And like shanus said, if you don't think and always l cancel (because you assume that you must do it all the time) you will put up your shield when you don't intend to because you didn't notice that you AC your aerial.

 

[Magus420]

ACing in Brawl isn't much different than in Melee, it just became more prominent in Brawl because of the overall higher lag on attacks. I attempt to l-cancel aerials that end up ACing in Melee all the time, and don't have issues with the shield coming up and don't really see it being much different in Brawl with the exception of light landings where you'd need to let go ~2 frames faster.

 

[kupo15]

^^^Yea, I too l cancel by accident in melee in which shield usually doesn't pop up but that is probably due to the fact how you rarely see light landings and you have small lag from naturally landing. Seeing how brawl and brawl+ doesn't behave in this way, you would see shield mistakes more often unless you turn soft landing into hard. I'm pretty sure I've gotten soft landings after falling from the top of the stage in brawl before whereas in melee, you get hard landing from a short hop.


But in any case, I think that the whole ALR (if you plan on keeping it) needs to be reworked to reflect what I said two posts ago

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think ALR should get the hitlag treatment, where moves are looked at individually.

Of course, this is in the update months from now.

 

[kupo15]

I think ALR should get the hitlag treatment, where moves are looked at individually.

Of course, this is in the update months from now.

That is basically what I am proposing. Some moves that got ALR are fine, others are not. Here is another examples.

Vbrawl Peach

Uair
9 Frames

Nair
11 Frames

Fair
22 frames

Dair
9 frames

Bair
9 frames

Melee Peach

()= l canceled

Uair
15 frames (7 frames)

Nair
17 frames (8 frames)

Fair
25 frames (12 frames)

Dair
15 frames (7 frames)

Bair
15 frames (7 frames)


Oh, another thing, MK should not get any ALR.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Yeah I don't really understand why he got any either.

Although it doesn't actually help him as much as other characters, its still an unneeded buff.

 

[zxeon]

None of those characters or moves are broken at the moment so there is no real reason to have moves "looked at individually". I guess the colors in those posts are cool to look at.

 

[MK26]

but you werent going to punish them anyways...aerials became less punishable on block because we more than doubled shieldstun, not because we halved alr.

...

and even then, several still are punishable <_< >_>

Also shanus, why would you not want to l-cancel an aerial if it's autocanceled? Wouldn't you then get 50% of the autocancel's lag?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Also shanus, why would you not want to l-cancel an aerial if it's autocanceled? Wouldn't you then get 50% of the autocancel's lag?

<_<

-_-

that is all

 

[MK26]

EDIT: oh wait what. scratch that then.

<-- stupid

 

[Shell]

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he may be referring to the Melee usage of "AC" that is, landing during a certain portion of the move's duration causes it to reduce the lag automatically. I'm pretty sure Ganon's Bair and Peach's Fair (?) used this, among many others.

This is, in fact, a more accurate usage of AC as it's actually canceling something -- what most of us Brawlers refer to as ACing might actually be called "finishing-the-attack-before-you-land."

Edit: nvm, he's stupid.

 

[CloneHat]

I completely agree with what was posted by Kupo. I find a lot of moves to simply be too fast (i.e. they virtually have NO landing lag), such as Marth fair. It wouldn't hurt these characters overall, especially if all the moves were looked at and balanced, and it would make punishing these moves a little more...possible.

I do realize some moves (Fox dair) have a specific amount of lag due to combo reasons, and I think that's fine.

 

[MK26]

actually...yes, that is what i was referring to

<_< >_>

From my knowledge of it, that lag was greater than normal landing lag but less than non-ac lag, and thus could be l-canceled to be further decreased

EDIT: can someone direct me to that post that has the fixed Zelda/Sheik transformation PACs?

EDITEDIT: is tehre anythin goin on in the WBR now?

 

[camelot]

I agree about tweaking ALR of individual moves. Look at Kirby and Marth, for example, they both have 3 aerials with 9 frames of lag normally. In B+, that's either 4 or 5... which is almost the same as an auto-cancel.

edit: almost the same as a hard landing.

 

[GHNeko]

EDITEDIT: is tehre anythin goin on in the WBR now?

We're thinking about how many changes it will take to piss everyone off.

 

[Shadic]

Make lots!

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I agree that, for moves that already have low lag in brawl+, as in they have low lag WITHOUT automatic lag reduction, really don't need it. However, there are some moves that should keep it. (Peach fair comes to mind)

 

[GHNeko]

i Agree For Moves That Already Have Low Lag In Brawl+ Without Automatic Lag Reduction Really Don't Need It. However, There Are Some Moves That Should Keep It. (peach Fair Comes To Mind)

....WHY!? >_____>

srslywtf

 

[SymphonicSage12]

What's up with all the words being capitalized yo


....and I was just using peach fair as an example. My point was that ALR is really not necessary for all attacks. For another example, it's not necessary for Marth fair, but it is necessary for Link dair.

 

[GHNeko]

Your original post really confuses me. I've read it 5 times and I still cant get it. <_<

Fix the wording please.

 

[Magus420]

It doesn't need to be as simple as it has it or doesn't have it. You can set the exact number of frames on each move's landing lag in their pac's attributes and the animation will be sped up/slowed down accordingly.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Random post, but do you know which subactions or attributes are landing lag? and do you just set the number of frames of landing lag, or do you actually use the frame speed modifier in PSA?

 

[Magus420]

Attributes. You just enter the number of frames of lag you want (in v0.1 of PSA you'll need to enter the floating-point for it yourself).

0x138 - Soft Landing Lag?
0x13C - Hard Landing Lag
0x140 - N-Air Landing Lag
0x144 - F-Air Landing Lag
0x148 - B-Air Landing Lag
0x14C - U-Air Landing Lag
0x150 - D-Air Landing Lag

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Thank you!!! :D so hard landing lag is like, lag when you fastfall into the ground or something, right?


EDIT: wait, if I say that peach's nair has, say, 9 frames of landing lag, would the ALR cut it down to 4.5? or would it be 9?

EDITEDIT: Guys, I've made a Peach pac that has slightly increased landing lag on all of her aerials (except for fair). I believe nair had 6 frames and went to 8 frames of landing lag. Uair, Nair, and Dair all had 5 frames, and I increased them to 7 frames of landing lag. Now the ALR pretty well mimics Melee autocancel frames. basically, they all had less lag than L-cancel frames, so I made it a little more balanced out.
download link: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=X4IATRU0


Sorry for my meanness rant. o_o

 

[kupo15]

I agree about tweaking ALR of individual moves. Look at Kirby and Marth, for example, they both have 3 aerials with 9 frames of lag normally. In B+, that's either 4 or 5... which is almost the same as an auto-cancel.

edit: almost the same as a hard landing.

Vbrawl Kirby

Uair
9 Frames

Nair
9 Frames

Fair
14 frames

Dair
16 frames

Bair
9 frames

Melee Kirby

()= l canceled

Uair
15 frames (7 frames)

Nair
15 frames (7 frames)

Fair
20 frames (10 frames)

Dair
20 frames (10 frames)

Bair
15 frames (7 frames)

Yea, I would say so. Nice comparison to there being practically no difference in aerial lag and hard landing. Quite amazing!
That's no good!

 

[WheelOfFish]

I'm fine with changing ALR, but changing one character's ALR in a .pac and not changing the rest of the cast's is not a good idea.

We're thinking about how many changes it will take to piss everyone off.

Does this mean you guys are finally removing Pikachu from the CSS?

Took you long enough.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I'm planning on slightly raising the lag of all aerials that need it. I'm currently up to Ike. but I gotta go now so..yeah

 

[camelot]

Frame stuff

It seems like they tried to compensate for the removal of l-canceling by putting the landing lag of aerials somewhere between l-canceled and non-l-canceled lag.

Except, obviously, they didn't do this with every attack, and it really hurt characters with high landing lag, like Ganondorf.

Anyway, I think some attacks with ridiculously low lag (in the 4-6 frame range) should be toned down, so that they aren't practically the same as a hard landing. Hard landings for most characters are 3 frames of lag, and having attacks with 4-6 frames of landing lag might as well just be auto-cancels. In my opinion, 7 frames of landing lag should be the absolute minimum on any aerial.

Where are you finding this frame data, kupo?

 

[thesage]

The frame data from melee can be found http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/frames.html <-- there

Frame data for vBrawl can be found at the vbrawl boards usually.

 

[leafgreen386]

actually...yes, that is what i was referring to

<_< >_>

From my knowledge of it, that lag was greater than normal landing lag but less than non-ac lag, and thus could be l-canceled to be further decreased

No. Autocancels were the same as normal landing lag (usually 4-6 frames depending on the character) and could not be further reduced.

EDITEDIT: is tehre anythin goin on in the WBR now?

We're deciding between making the data obtained from this release useless or very useless.

Spoiler

We're actually looking at fixing up what needs to be addressed in the next patch, although we've been working slower than we were in the days coming up to the official release.

 

[kupo15]

The frame data from melee can be found http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/frames.html <-- there

Frame data for vBrawl can be found at the vbrawl boards usually.

Yup. I searched for the frame data in the stickies in the vbrawl character boards and used that thread for melee. I'm sad that Samus boards didn't have it from what I found (I mean, good frame data). Jiggs, peach, gaw, Ganon, pika are others that have them from what I remember, there are others.

It seems like Brawl tried to give some moves auto l canceling but the difference in frame data could be because they just wanted it that way. Wish I knew.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I'm continuing to work on more lag on aerial landing lag. I finished Ike yesterday. If you guys care...at all... I'm going to work on it more tonight.

 

[kupo15]

I'm continuing to work on more lag on aerial endings. I finished Ike yesterday. If you guys care...at all... I'm going to work on it more tonight.

Aerial ending? As in, more lag on the aerials themselves?

Lag on aerial endings =/= aerial landing lag