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Brawl+ 5.0 RC1 Tactical Discussion Thread

SymphonicSage12

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
Wow...lotsa spaghetti--I mean posts--after I Went to bed and school and stuff....Ok, I'll post my data.

For characters in melee, I'll post to their data in comparison to both melee and vbrawl, and characters only in brawl, I'll just post their data as opposed to vbrawl. Although...I just used the melee l-cancelled statistics for characters that were in melee.

Does anyone have a data list for vbrawl aerial landing lag statistics?
 
SymphonicSage12

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
MY LANDING LAG

BRAWL+ STATS (or Melee l-cancelled stats)/vBrawl stats: (All characters that were in Melees' stats are equal to their Melee l-cancelled stats)

Captain Falcon:

Nair: 7 frames/
Fair: 9 frames/
Bair: 9 frames/
Uair: 7 frames/
Dair: 12 frames/

Diddy Kong:

Nair: 9 frames/
Fair: 15 frames/
Bair: 8 frames/
Uair: 13 frames/
Dair: 15 frames/
(I know Diddy has a lot more average lag than C.F, but Diddy has more options at his disposal, so I figured the lag should be more. Let me know if it needs lowering.)

Donkey Kong:

Nair: 10 frames/
Fair: 15 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair: 12 frames/
Dair: 15 frames/

Falco:

Nair: 7 frames/
Fair: 11 frames/
Bair: 10 frames/
Uair: 9 frames/
Dair: 9 frames/

Fox:

Nair: 7 frames/
Fair: 11 frames/
Bair: 10 frames/
Uair: 9 frames/
Dair: 6 frames/ ( I DIDN'T CHANGE THIS DUE TO COMBOING REASONS PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT)

Mr. Game and Watch:

Nair: 7 frames/
Fair: 12 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair: 8 frames/
Dair: 10 frames/

(His Nair, Bair, and Uair or Dair (can't remember which) couldn't be l-cancelled in Melee, so I didn't have any data to go off of. I just raised them to the minimum of 7 frames or more)

Ganondorf:

Nair: 12 frames/
Fair: 12 frames/
Bair: 12 frames/
Uair: 12 frames/
Dair: 17 frames/

Ike:

Nair: 8 frames/
Fair: 13 frames/
Bair: 13 frames/
Uair: 11 frames/
Dair: 15 frames/

Kirby:

Nair: 7 frames/
Fair: 10 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair: 7 frames/
Dair: 10 frames/

Bowser:

Nair: 15 frames/
Fair: 15 frames/
Bair: 17 frames/
Uair: 15 frames/
Dair: 20 frames/

Link:

Nair: 7 frames/
Fair: 7 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair: 15 frames/
Dair: 25 frames/

Lucario:

Nair: 7 frames/
Fair: 10 frames/
Bair: 9 frames/
Uair: 11 frames/
Dair: 7 frames/

Lucas:

Nair: 10 frames/
Fair: 7 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair: 7 frames/
Dair: 13 frames/

Luigi:

Nair: 7 frames/
Fair: 12 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair: 7 frames/
Dair: 9 frames/

Mario:

Nair: 8 frames/
Fair: 10 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair: 7 frames
Dair: 11 frames/

Marth:

Nair: 7 frames/
Fair: 7 frames/
Bair: 12 frames/
Uair: 7 frames/
Dair: 16 frames/

Metaknight:

Nair: 9 frames/
Fair: 9 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair: 7 frames/
Dair: 9 frames/

Ness:

Nair: 11 frames/
Fair: 9 frames/
Bair: 9 frames/
Uair: 9 frames/
Dair: 14 frames/

Peach: (I did not use the float-cancelled stats: They would be overpowered compared to the rest of the cast)

Nair: 8 frames/
Fair: 12 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair: 7 frames/
Dair: 7 frames/

Pikachu:

Nair: 7 frames/
Fair: 10 frames/
Bair: 15 frames/
Uair: 13 frames/
Dair: 20 frames/

Olimar:

Nair: 9 frames/
Fair: 9 frames/
Bair: 9 frames/
Uair: 15 frames/
Dair: 15 frames/

Pit:

Nair: 12 frames/
Fair: 7 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair:12 frames/
Dair: 13 frames/

Jigglypuff:

Nair: 10 frames/
Fair: 10 frames/
Bair: 10 frames/
Uair: 10 frames/
Dair: 15 frames/

R.O.B:

Nair: 8 frames/
Fair: 8 frames/
Bair: 8 frames/
Uair: 11 frames/
Dair: 12 frames/

Samus:

Nair: 7 frames/
Fair: 7 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair: 7 frames/
Dair: 7 frames/

Sheik:

Nair: 8 frames/
Fair: 8 frames/
Bair: 8 frames/
Uair: 12 frames/
Dair: 10 frames/

Snake:

Nair: 14 frames/
Fair: 14 frames/
Bair: 14 frames/
Uair: 10 frames/
Dair: 14 frames/

Sonic:

Nair: 8 frames/
Fair: 13 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair: 12 frames/
dair: 14 frames/

Zero Suit Samus:

Nair: 7 frames/
Fair: 9 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair: 7 frames/
Dair: 20 frames/

Toon Link:

Nair: 9 frames/
Fair: 10 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair: 12 frames/
Dair: 20 frames/

Wario:

Nair: 7 frames/
Fair: 9 frames/
Bair: 14 frames/
Uair: 7 frames/
Dair: 11 frames/

Wolf:

Nair: 7 frames/
Fair: 14 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair: 7 frames/
Dair: 12 frames/

Yoshi:

Nair: 7 frames/
Fair: 10 frames/
Bair: 7 frames/
Uair: 9 frames/
Dair: 13 frames/

Zelda:

Nair: 9 frames/
Fair: 9 frames/
Bair: 9 frames/
Uair: 12 frames/
Dair: 12 frames/


vBrawl data comparison isn't done yet. Does anyone have a full list of frame data? I don't want to go searching around all day. I will also pretty up this post.
 
SymphonicSage12

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
Oddly long silence...


But in all seriousness, I prefer Lylat over FD; I actually love the stage ocsillation simply because it adds another element I have to pay attention to. I also love how the stage isn't flat, so it forces me to think about where I'm low floating, and how to continue my combos. It just seems so much more intriguing to me than FD.

:V
 
SymphonicSage12

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
I smells a patch for the codeset. D:

But seriously, how the **** do you manage to be so sexy, Dantarion!?
 
SymphonicSage12

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
Can you please magically fix the water mechanics with your angel-sculpted brain and fingers now?

:D
 
SymphonicSage12

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
can you give us whatever we need to do that, then? D:

and can you give us the stage pacs if you have them?
 
CloneHat

CloneHat

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
2,130
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Oh crap. I thought PSA changes were always in .pac form, and now you're INJECTING PURE PSA INTO A .PAC WITHOUT USE OF A .PAC???!!!

You've outdone yourself.
 
Wavedash Master

Wavedash Master

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
322
Dantarion said:
No .pac's required.
My ledgetech code is a modification of Fighter.pac via PSA Injection, a method of modifying Fighter.pac that I invented. Last night.
Click to expand...
Something I wanted to ask. Do you suppose it would be possible to modify ledge grab range?
 
shanus

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
There are no stage pac edits, only code edits.

Dantarion's code is epic.


that is all
 
Dantarion

Dantarion

Smash Champion
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
2,492
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
Tri Brow said:
Something I wanted to ask. Do you suppose it would be possible to modify ledge grab range?
Click to expand...
I know where the game checks to see if you are allowed to grab the edge, but I haven't found ledge-grab range yet.
CloneHat said:
Oh crap. I thought PSA changes were always in .pac form, and now you're INJECTING PURE PSA INTO A .PAC WITHOUT USE OF A .PAC???!!!

You've outdone yourself.
Click to expand...
Thanks, this was the only way I could think of inserting lines into Fighter.pac
SymphonicSage12 said:
can you give us whatever we need to do that, then? D:

and can you give us the stage pacs if you have them?
Click to expand...
No stage .pacs, just codes.
I'm working on a tool to make PSA Injections easier, but you would have still to code the actions/variables in hex yourself, which NO ONE really knows how to do right except for me and phantom AFAIK.

stingers135 said:
dantarion is rivaling phantom wings with this ****
Click to expand...
shanus said:
Dantarion's code is epic.
Click to expand...
Thanksssss

Mattnumbers said:
Well I meant can I have whatever codes there are for stages. I don't need it to be official I just want to try out the new Skyworld and GHNeko's Onett.
Click to expand...
I guess I'll post my stage code in this thread for testing for people that want it.

SymphonicSage12 said:
that's what I meant, too.

me wants the ledgetech codes and stage codes now plz
Click to expand...
I guess ill post the ledgetech code too :D

kupo15 said:
Also the only thing I see that could some tweaking is, I think I see that you can tech during flinch hits. Other than that, amazing
Click to expand...
Wait, did you try it out? Or are you just guessing?
 
kupo15

kupo15

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Dantarion said:
Wait, did you try it out? Or are you just guessing?
Click to expand...
I don't have time to try it out now, I was just going on what I saw. I apologize if I'm wrong which is why i worded it the way I did. I had to rewind it several times because it was very hard to see and I was also using my brawl knowledge where you don't tumble as early. It appeared as though there were stale moves. I was just mentioning what I thought I saw and posted it for reassurance whatever the verdict is.

Your **** talented
 
Dantarion

Dantarion

Smash Champion
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
2,492
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
It was in training mode, no stale moves.
It looks weird because you can end up in weird places after being hit, such as the few times I try to ledgetech at low percents in the video. What seems to be happening is I slide up the edge instead of getting stagespiked. The strange bouncing during missed techs was present in Melee too.

BTW, the video is of vBrawl. Thats why when i missed the techs I was able to recover, in Brawl+ the teching is harder because of less hitlag and the failtech bounce normally means death.
 
SymphonicSage12

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
3,299
so can you post the stage codes for Onett, etc.?

and is there some way to release like a code for ledgeteching? so that everyone could use it? D:
 
T

ThatGuy

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
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Location
Laval-Ouest, Quebec, Canada
Good morning SWF!

So I have an AT for you guys, since I don't see it being used mainstream.

You all know about JC (Jump Cancelled) Grabs from Melee, where you can dash into a standing grab? You can do the same thing in Brawl+ with DC (Dash Cancelled) Grabs. The only unfortunate limitation is that it can't be performed during initial dash frames, but most dashes are pretty short anyways so it's not that big a deal.

So yeah, input is run, press down, and grab. Works like a charm, and you don't have to deal with that petty dashgrab animation.
 
CountKaiser

CountKaiser

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 16, 2009
Messages
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Location
In space
Might I say that dantarion is awesome.

With that out of the way, I have a question about stages.

I saw your vids for trying to make Skyworld work, and I was wondering if you could perhaps modify the KB of the cars on Port Town Aero Dive. If you could, that'd be an awesome CP.
 
shanus

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
So it has been brought to my attention (well, its fairly obvious), that there is some dislike in this set for stupid changes. Its pretty well acknowledged that there are stupid changes. However, people feel that we don't read this thread or even acknowledge others opinions (not true). I want to encourage people here to post their ideas without worry. We cannot know if something is an absolutely terrible change if you don't post about it.

The point here isn't to talk about saying this character needs this that or the other thing, its to revisit the current changes now. There are changes which were unnecessary, or overdone.

The point isn't to talk about ness' fair being absurd, samus' jab (which has actually been in since i think june or july and just never voiced as an issue till recently) or falcon's bair. We know that already, and this information is duly noted. However, certain characters are clearly of concern to the public eye, and if this information is not conveyed in this thread, its a communication issue between the public and the WBR as we cannot live in the IRC to always hear your opinions.

So here is what I want you to know. The WBR is taking in feedback from every tournament and also things such as this thread to keep track of for whenever we do decide to start working on final changes (read: we haven't started yet, no freaking out). The point here is if you think something is truly unbalanced, frivolous, detracts from the game, etc, post with detailed matchup feedback and logic, and maybe even a test pac file with a fix for us to try. It's as simple as that.

We value your opinion, but if you don't share it, it can't be heard.
 
T

ThatGuy

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Messages
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Location
Laval-Ouest, Quebec, Canada
MK26 said:
Yes, that was the intent when the dash cancel code was implemented.

Like 6 months ago.
Click to expand...
Someone didn't have coffee this morning!

So the intent was not to increase the options in movement, spacing, and positioning but to implement a crappier version of JC grabs?...

I haven't seen any videos of people actually making use of this, therefore I brought it up.
 
shanus

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
ThatGuy said:
Someone didn't have coffee this morning!

So the intent was not to increase the options in movement, spacing, and positioning but to implement a crappier version of JC grabs?...

I haven't seen any videos of people actually making use of this, therefore I brought it up.
Click to expand...
No, the intents were there. It was just an added bonus :)
 
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