Brawl+ 5.0 RC1 Tactical Discussion Thread

[SymphonicSage12]

er, aerial landing lag, I mean. Like, when you hit the ground without auto cancelling.

 

[Mattnumbers]

SS don't waste your time, you can't make the numbers arbitrarily, you need to make sure you have the correct amount and not just change what "seems wrong".

Unless you correspond this with the WBR I doubt they will take your numbers.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I never said it's a final version or that the WBR should use it.

Basically, I believe that the bare minimum landing lag should be about 7 frames, so I'm going around making the ones that are 5 frames and under 7 frames. I know that it might be better to make some of these a different number. Some of them actually have more than 7. But, I'm just kinda fiddling around with the numbers.

The point still stands that on some moves, the aerial landing lag is WAY too low.



(pssst but if anyone wants to try it out because they have hope that someday I will not be so lame and stupid, go for it)

 

[MK26]

sage, i recommend comparing them all to the Melee landing lag and going from there.

Also, once you hit Kirby, i'll try him out.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I used the melee data (l -cancelled aerials) for all the characters that were in melee. The one exception was that, for GW's nair, bair, and uair, they had no data on them D:

Kirby link will be up in a sec.

EDIT: I know you can't test until at least Friday, but here's the Kirby pac. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=OU6ML8T1

 

[MK26]

dont rush yourself, i cant do anything until friday at the earliest D:

 

[SuSa]

(most of) G&W's aerials couldn't be L-canceled in Melee.

/90% sure

 

[GHNeko]

wtf SuSa coming out of no where.

 

[SuSa]

I'm a freaking ninja.

Oh, and I got bored so I looked at this thread. Saw he couldn't find the data, and decided to be nice and let him know why.

So how's the whole Brawl+ thing going? I stopped caring after v3.0 or 3.1 or something like that.

 

[Isatis]

SuSa's right actually.

Triangle.

 

[Plum]

(most of) G&W's aerials couldn't be L-canceled in Melee.

/90% sure

Only Fair and Dair could be iirc. Dair has no ALR as it is (sadface) and Fair is basically where it should be.
Though lets be honest, you could keep Uair, Nair, and Bair with their Brawl lag and they would still be great

 

[SymphonicSage12]

okay, I figured out the GW stuff.

If anyone cares at all, my pacs are finished (v0.1).


http://www.megaupload.com/?d=N5OQM6IC. Please test and let me know if you hate me or like it.

 

[_Phloat_]

Read through the last few pages, didn't see any discussion on this...

How far do you guys think MK stands over the rest of the cast, if any?

 

[bob-e]

Read through the last few pages, didn't see any discussion on this...

How far do you guys think MK stands over the rest of the cast, if any?

I think MK is still one of the best characters. Probably not THE best, but still way up there.
Despite all the nerfs that he received, nothing has addressed one of his greatest strengths: safety. He still has an amazing amount of insanely safe options, some of which became even safer with ALR and sheildstun. I think the only reason that we aren't seeing him dominate Brawl+ isn't because the nerfs were effective, but because other characters have been brought up to his overall level.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I agree. Metaknight still has insanely good moves (dair comes to mind) which he can safely throw out at pretty much any time. It's just that other characters have been made better to be in balance with him: Wario comes to mind for this point.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Wario was already third best in vBrawl

 

[SymphonicSage12]

.....Way to spoil my fun. You get my point :V


(pssst try out my pacs please, even if you hate me, just try them)

 

[CloneHat]

Wario was already third best in vBrawl

Why?

Where did he come from!?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Why?

Where did he come from!?

S: Meta Knight, Snake, Wario, Falco, Diddy Kong, King Dedede
A: Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Pikachu, Olimar, Ice Climbers, R.O.B., Kirby
B: Lucario, Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, Pit, Donkey Kong
C: Peach, Luigi, Fox, Wolf, Sonic, Sheik
D: Bowser, Zelda, Pokémon Trainer, Ike
E: Lucas, Mario, Ness, Yoshi, Samus
F: Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Link, Ganondorf

 

[CloneHat]

Wasn't he in like, B tier just a while ago?

 

[Mattnumbers]

He was in A tier at first, but I don't think he was ever lower than that.

EDIT: Nevermind he was high, then B (in the one where meta and snake had their own tiers), and now he's S

 

[MK26]

Sage, I'll try out the PACs and get back to you. By the way, would you mind posting your frame data, preferably compared to Melee and/or vBrawl?

Also, I feel like discussing stages again.

Neutral
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
WarioWare (singles)/Wifi Waiting Room (doubles)

Counterpick
Delfino Plaza
Rainbow Cruise
Frigate Orpheon
Brinstar
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium
Castle Siege
Wifi Waiting Room (singles)/WarioWare (doubles)

Counterpick/Banned
Luigi's Mansion
PictoChat
Jungle Japes
Norfair
Green Greens
Distant Planet
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Onett
Corneria
Pirate Ship

Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit
Mario Bros.
75m
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Temple
Spear Pillar
Port Town Aero Dive
Big Blue
New Pork City
Summit
Flat Zone 2
Skyworld
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Hanenbow

(Note: the C/B section is intended to be in order, meaning that you pick a cutoff between two stages, and above that cutoff are the counterpicks and below are the banned stages. If anybody disagrees with my sliding scale of legality, explain why.)

Discuss.

 

[jalued]

Sage, I'll try out the PACs and get back to you. By the way, would you mind posting your frame data, preferably compared to Melee and/or vBrawl?

Also, I feel like discussing stages again.



Discuss.

Think FD should be counter in singles and neutral in doubles

 

[jokey665]

Think FD should be counter in singles and neutral in doubles

I agree. I've been for this for a long time, and the Midwest is doing it for vBrawl, too.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think Yoshi's Island Melee should be right below Corneria.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Well, if FD is counter, then Lylat Cruise is DEFINITELY not neutral, which means that people will debate that WW isn't neutral either.

 

[Plum]

I honestly don't understand why Final Destination would ever be considered for a counterpick stage rather than a neutral.
Let's just look at the stage:
Greatly favors characters with long range projectiles, favors characters who lack platform abuse, neutral to most other characters, and a slight disadvantage to those who rely on platforms for combos or abuse.

The whole greatly favor some characters should land it in the CP stage, but it lacks absolutely zero hazards or distractions to gameplay, and is quite literally as straightforward of a stage as a stage can get.

Now I would IMMEDIATELY put Final Destination as a CP stage IF AND ONLY IF a tourney did not use the stage strike system for some bizzare reason. I imagine there has to be at least a few tournaments out there who still just throw the neutrals on the random list and hit go, but with stage striking Final Destination becomes a perfectly acceptable neutral. If you do happen to be against a character favoring Final Destination then you can opt to not play it at all as a neutral, making the only chance you have of seeing it as a counterpick. Then there's the option of using your ban on Final Destination all together. For every other character in the game (so no Falco or Diddy for example) the stage offers neutral gameplay.

The characters who like Final Destination more than not REALLY like the stage, but stage striking balances it out completely.

 

[jalued]

Well, if FD is counter, then Lylat Cruise is DEFINITELY not neutral, which means that people will debate that WW isn't neutral either.

if it didnt ti;lt im sure it would b neutral. BF in melee was a neutral and that had stupid edges

 

[Mattnumbers]

Actually I would say that Lylat cruise is more neutral than FD. It has a disadvantage for projectiles but no real huge advantage for another type of character. Also apparently the stage leans the same every time, so you just will have to pay attention to where the ship is I guess.

And actually lots of tournament use a random neutral on the first match because stage striking takes up time.

 

[bob-e]

Actually I would say that Lylat cruise is more neutral than FD. It has ... no real huge advantage for another type of character.

Marth says hi

Also if having predictable, consistent, repeating changes is reason enough to have Lylat a neutral, shouldn't we also put Delfino, Castle Siege, Rainbow Cruise, Japes, PictoChat, Port Town, Mushroomy Kingdom, Rumble Falls, and Big Blue on the neutral list?

 

[MK26]

Delfino transformations, temporary walkoffs, temporary water
Castle Siege transformations and a temporary walkoff
Rainbow Cruise ground changes
Japes damaging hazard
PictoChat transformations and damaging hazard
Port Town transformations and very damaging hazard
Mushroomy Kingdom ground changes, poor blastzones
Rumble Falls ground changes and very damaging hazards
Big Blue deadly ground

It just oscillates, people! It's not like it flips upside down every once in a while...and marth is a character, not a type of character

also, matt, you think yi melee is worse than corneria? Care to explain? I always considered YI to be an ever-so-slightly-worse version of Distant Planet (err...DP being an ever-so-slightly-better version of YI, as YI did come first )

And I personally think that a stage's neutrality or counterpickyness (?) should be based on how much you interact with the stage during gameplay...for instance, the stages I have in the neutral section all are ones where actual movement of the stage is kept to a mninimum, while the cps all have some moving parts to them. WarioWare and WWR are sorta outliers, in that WW is simply too small to be neutral in doubles and WWR is too large to be neutral in singles.

 

[jalued]

It just oscillates, people! It's not like it flips upside down every once in a while...and marth is a character, not a type of character

also, matt, you think yi melee is worse than corneria? Care to explain? I always considered YI to be an ever-so-slightly-worse version of Distant Planet (err...DP being an ever-so-slightly-better version of YI, as YI did come first )

And I personally think that a stage's neutrality or counterpickyness (?) should be based on how much you interact with the stage during gameplay...for instance, the stages I have in the neutral section all are ones where actual movement of the stage is kept to a mninimum, while the cps all have some moving parts to them. WarioWare and WWR are sorta outliers, in that WW is simply too small to be neutral in doubles and WWR is too large to be neutral in singles.

however, lylat is a massivly good kirby stage, and ur a kirby main... im not accusing, just saying

seriously though, FD should be counter since it benefits some characters far too much compared to others (unlike melee whereby marth v fox/falco had a marth chaingrab to even out the matchup)

oh and thinking lylat should be CP too.

on a different tangent, anyway to make ti easier to fall through platforms??? it seems annoyignly hard sometimes in brawl

 

[Plum]

however, lylat is a massivly good kirby stage, and ur a kirby main... im not accusing, just saying

seriously though, FD should be counter since it benefits some characters far too much compared to others (unlike melee whereby marth v fox/falco had a marth chaingrab to even out the matchup)

oh and thinking lylat should be CP too.

on a different tangent, anyway to make ti easier to fall through platforms??? it seems annoyignly hard sometimes in brawl

Hence why I would put it in neutrals if the tourney used a stage strike system.
Stage striking totally solidifies its neutrality.

Random first neutral is a worse system, but it does save time, so there is at least a reason to use it. This is the only situation I would put it as a counterpick.

For a lot of characters it does offer great neutral gameplay. Its a select few that it grossly favors, but given the option to stage strike it and stop it from showing as the first stage then anyone with half a brain would take it.

 

[bob-e]

Damaging hazards, damaging hazards, damaging hazards, damaging hazards, damaging hazards

Nothing is more damaging than an SD because the stage blocked your recovery.

 

[jalued]

Damaging hazards, damaging hazards, damaging hazards, damaging hazards, damaging hazards

Nothing is more damaging than an SD because the stage blocked your recovery.

the only characters that have probs with lylat are falco,zelda and diddy. stop moaning falco main!

Hence why I would put it in neutrals if the tourney used a stage strike system.
Stage striking totally solidifies its neutrality.

Random first neutral is a worse system, but it does save time, so there is at least a reason to use it. This is the only situation I would put it as a counterpick.

For a lot of characters it does offer great neutral gameplay. Its a select few that it grossly favors, but given the option to stage strike it and stop it from showing as the first stage then anyone with half a brain would take it.

yeah definately, if ur allowed to strike it then its completely a neutral, same with FD tbh. vs a falco u strike FD, as a falco u strike lylat lol

 

[MK26]

aha bias abounds

and just go on lylat in traning mode for like 5 mins with falco, and you'll see that its not neasrly as bad as you think it is.

 

[Dantarion]

Skyworld with top 3 platforms broken, a bottom platform that doesn't break, and no platform respawning.

Legit counterpick? Discuss.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Skyworld with top 3 platforms broken, a bottom platform that doesn't break, and no platform respawning.

Legit counterpick? Discuss.

I just saw the video of your Skyworld actually. I think it looks great. Nothing bad about it that I can think of so far. =]

 

[stingers]

yeah that sounds excellent...i suggested it before but people wanted breakable side platforms for some reason.

 

[jalued]

Skyworld with top 3 platforms broken, a bottom platform that doesn't break, and no platform respawning.

Legit counterpick? Discuss.

definately!