Brawl+ 5.0 RC1 Tactical Discussion Thread

[GameSystem]

Just get a secondary.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

If you nerf blizzard, some virtual heads are going to roll. *cough*

 

[CloneHat]

I propose a nerf to Olimar.

We make him bigger, so you can actually tell what attack he's doing.

I find that one advantage he has with his spammability is that he's so small and surrounded be his pikmin, you can't tell what attack he's throwing out. You just here a little sound and say "oh snap I just got grabbed/(insert smash here)". Fighting Olimar is pretty chaotic for other reasons on top of that, like his side B.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well if you made him bigger, wouldn't that give the illusion that his attacks have worse range?

 

[MK26]

Ooh ooh new stage list

What do you all think?

Neutral
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
WarioWare (singles)/Wifi Waiting Room (doubles)

Counterpick
Delfino Plaza
Rainbow Cruise
Frigate Orpheon
Brinstar
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium
Castle Siege
Wifi Waiting Room (singles)/WarioWare (doubles)

Counterpick/Banned
Luigi's Mansion
PictoChat
Jungle Japes
Norfair
Green Greens
Distant Planet
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Onett
Corneria
Pirate Ship

Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit
Mario Bros.
75m
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Temple
Spear Pillar
Port Town Aero Dive
Big Blue
New Pork City
Summit
Flat Zone 2
Skyworld
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Hanenbow

(Note: the C/B section is intended to be in order, meaning that you pick a cutoff between two stages, and above that cutoff are the counterpicks and below are the banned stages. If anybody disagrees with my sliding scale of legality, explain why.)

EDIT: colour cuz it looks good and to visually explain the above.

 

[CloneHat]

The bottom line is that I'd like to see Olimar actually have noticeable animations on his attacks.

And I like that stage list, but I think Lylat and WW are definitely counter picks.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Except that doesn't actually make him any worse at higher levels of play since you should know the range of his attacks anyways.

All it does is reduce the level of mindgames he can pull which in my opinion is never a good thing to nerf.

 

[GuruKid]

Lylat Cruise and WarioWare are definitely counterpick stages for rather obvious reasons.

Besides, even when they're put in the Neutral list in tournaments, 90% of the time they're the first stages to be struck. Putting them in the Neutral setting just makes stage striking more tedious.

 

[kr3wman]

WW should always be a cp in singles and should be a cp/banned in doubles imo.

Total Cluster****.

 

[Yeroc]

But the CP system makes that not matter as you don't know who the other person is going to pick since you have to pick first. Why do I keep having to repeat myself X(. Then when you pick yours second you get to pick someone that doesn't do bad against their character, but in this case the other player has to deal with the same stupid problem! (Unless of course you just pick the character with the least amount of bad matchups, which people will end up doing).

This is how counterpicking has always worked, in every game whose rules included it, ever. You lost, you get a do-over. If you win, guess what? It's your opponent's turn, so step it up if you don't wanna get hosed. It's just how it is.

Nice list MK. We're actually in the process of discussing a recommended stage list in the WBR, so that's cool.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Except that doesn't actually make him any worse at higher levels of play since you should know the range of his attacks anyways.

All it does is reduce the level of mindgames he can pull which in my opinion is never a good thing to nerf.

Uhhhh... Olimar's range is constantly changing, ranging from kinda ridiculous to absolutely insane. He's by no means easy to predict.

 

[CloneHat]

Uhhhh... Olimar's range is constantly changing, ranging from kinda ridiculous to absolutely insane. He's by no means easy to predict.

Guess and go; cross you fingers! All you see is a twitch and you hope you don't get hit.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

and unpredictibility is a bad thing? Olimar may be very good, but he is by no means close to broken. Even if his offstage game ***** to oblivion, his insanely predictable recovery would be MORE than enough to make up for it. Just mah two cents.


~ SymphonicSage12


And CloneHat, you're exaggerating to an extreme. I can see his movements perfectly fine.

 

[CloneHat]

I can't. I'm not a big fan of trying to guess what something about one inch in size is doing.

I guess I should just sit 2 inches away from my TV when I play Olimar.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Symphonic, try telling that to a character like Ivysaur, who is okay but NOTHING compared to Olimar and has just as bad of a recovery.

Olimar is tiny and floaty, making him hard (the hardest? possibly) to combo. Olimar is ridiculously unpredictable, has great range, has the best camping game, incredible speed, powerful and fast finishers to back up his stellar combo game. His ground game is amazing, and his air game is even better.

His weakness? A poor up-b. People also disregard the fact that his double jump takes him a long ways. Sure, his recovery is bad but I don't really think it balances him out.

For some odd reason I don't think you've ever played against an Olimar before Symphonic.

 

[Alphatron]

For Olimar, look at the pikmin closest to him(when he's camping, not actively using aerials). Pikmin are color coded for your convenience so I find this makes him ALOT easier to deal with. See a purple pikmin up front? Don't get in grab/smash range or bait its use.

Nice stage list btw. However, I'm against Pictochat not being flat out CP.

 

[bob-e]

For Olimar, look at the pikmin closest to him(when he's camping, not actively using aerials). Pikmin are color coded for your convenience so I find this makes him ALOT easier to deal with. See a purple pikmin up front? Don't get in grab/smash range or bait its use.

Nice stage list btw. However, I'm against Pictochat not being flat out CP.

The issue with Olimar isn't that it's too hard to tell what pikmin is coming up next. The problem is that his grab, pikmin throw, and all his smashes look almost identical.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Olimar's recovery may be awful but that means just about nothing when he's a tank onstage and that weakness doesn't actually get to be exploited much.

 

[MK26]

^_^ @ positive comments, v_v @ saying warioware/lylat should be cp...there is no reason except personal preference that says they should be cp...id even go as far as to say ww is the fairest neutral, every char's got something they can abuse there...and lylat is merely a case of knowing the stage. i can sweetspot the ledge there with every horizontal recovery 10 times out of 10.

(EDIT: tiredness johns to account for poor writing )

and alpha, my personal cutoff would be between greens and dp...putting mansion and picto in c/b are only to accomodate for ultra-conservative stage lists, i dont really expect anyone in their right state of mind to ban them, just like how i dont see anyone but the most liberal lists having ps as a playable stage

 

[RPGsFTW]

I agree with everyone else when they say:

Lylat Cruise and WarioWare as CPs, only!

 

[GHNeko]

I think WarioWare is a neutral as the stage isnt too big for 2 characters to fight on imo.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I think WarioWare is neutral for singles, as there is plenty of room for two people. But doubles...

try fitting two Dedede+Dedede teams on warioware without making it feel uncomfortable. >.>

So, in my eyes, it's a neutral for singles and a counterpick for doubles.

 

[MK26]

exactly. what possible reason is there for it being cp in singles? it doesnt move, it's got a unique platform layout, there are NO RANDOM FACTORS at all on the stage (more than i can say about YI Brawl), and no character is at a disadvantage. Name one character, any character, that cannot use/abuse something on this stage (*hint*didn't we try this before?*hint*). Ive seen people say it should be cp, but i have not yet seen a reason why...

 

[CloneHat]

I guess we have a strong argument for WW being neutral, and I don't really have much to say against that. Though the layout may be stupid, it's true everyone can abuse something there.

Lylat should definitely be CP, however. I can screw over projectiles, Falco can slide when he does SHFF lasers, Peach has her float blocked...

To top it off, sweetspotting is extremely difficult.

 

[5ive]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/im5ive
ok

 

[weinzey]

lc should be legal exactly because of the stuff mentioned. the point of the stage striking system is that some stages prefer certain chars (but only slightly)- u can strike them if u dont like them. if this wasnt the case, fd wouldnt be neutral either.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I guess we have a strong argument for WW being neutral, and I don't really have much to say against that. Though the layout may be stupid, it's true everyone can abuse something there.

Lylat should definitely be CP, however. I can screw over projectiles, Falco can slide when he does SHFF lasers, Peach has her float blocked...

To top it off, sweetspotting is extremely difficult.

^This. I'd said that those are pretty good reasons for Lylat being CP. And not every character has a problem with recovery here. >_>

And *sigh* at people who think WarioWare should be neutral. Even if they have good reason.

 

[Plum]

^This. I'd said that those are pretty good reasons for Lylat being CP. And not every character has a problem with recovery here. >_>

And *sigh* at people who think WarioWare should be neutral. Even if they have good reason.

There are reasons for it being counterpick. The platform layout offers extreme advantages to some characters, its small and fairly cramped for characters who like more space, and the boundaries can be problems for lighter characters and great for characters who already kill early.

But everything there is on a character to character basis, and for many it behaves just like a neutral should. I would put it as a CP if it weren't for the stage striking system. There's no problem with it being neutral because you can just stop it from being played the first match. If it weren't for stage striking I wouldn't even consider FD to be neutral because it can extremely favor certain characters, but that's why the stage strike system exists. It balances out the fact that neutrals aren't truly neutral.

 

[MK26]

I guess we have a strong argument for WW being neutral, and I don't really have much to say against that. Though the layout may be stupid, it's true everyone can abuse something there.

Lylat should definitely be CP, however. I can screw over projectiles, Falco can slide when he does SHFF lasers, Peach has her float blocked...

To top it off, sweetspotting is extremely difficult.

1) All stages have character advantages and disadvantages. That can't be helped.

2) Not difficult. Different. You have to be slightly higher than normal, and dont forget to aim for the edge and not the underside of the stage.

Look at it this way:

Final D - heavy advantage for projectile users and advantage for jugglers, screws over heavies
Battlefield - advantage for ranged and large characters (to abuse platforms)
Smashville - advantage for projectile users
Yoshi's Island - character-specific (aka "Maestro can't think of an overarching theme here")
Lylat Cruise - advantage for characters with good recoveries, screws over projectiles
Pokemon Stadium 2 - advantage to projectile users and horizontal comboers
WarioWare - everybody wins and everybody loses

Now, these may not be perfect, but i see 3 stages where projectile users have a distinct advantage. Lylat isn't just a perfectly good neutral, it's all but necessary.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Those reasons are very good to consider when thinking of FD and WW.

And I agree with you on that I'd personally put FD and WW as CPs normally, but unfortunately I'll have to ban them instead. Well, depending on the TO's legal stage list, that is.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Just like every character has weaknesses that can't be helped (coughnessrecoverycough). It doesn't necessarily mean that we should fix every little nitpicky problem that arises. It generally is true that trying to fix minor problems usually leads to more serious problems.

As Murphy's Law states, if something can go wrong, it will. Thank you for your time.

 

[Shadic]

Just like every character has weaknesses that can't be helped (coughnessrecoverycough). It doesn't necessarily mean that we should fix every little nitpicky problem that arises. It generally is true that trying to fix minor problems usually leads to more serious problems.

As Murphy's Law states, if something can go wrong, it will. Thank you for your time.

That is the most intelligent thing I believe you've ever posted. Good work.

And I support WW for a Neutral.

 

[Demacrez]

You know, playing through majority of characters and the long amount of hours... I really can't nitpick anything. I mean, it feels perfect and I don't know what can be changed for the better.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

^ Especially your avatar. that is just plain awesome (hidden bump/ +1 postcount yaaaaay)

And the only thing I'd really like to see is maybe those stage changes for Onett and MK1-2.

 

[Isatis]

We are streaming Brawl+ from Chu's Biweekly for those interested.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Link please?

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

Could you guys possibly enlighten me as to the huge changes that have happened to Peach in the switch from vBrawl to Brawl+? Aside from the obvious rise in speed and combos, I feel like I'm playing her the exact same way as I did in vBrawl, just more fluidly. I'm sure there are huge areas of potential that I'm not tapping into. <_<

 

[MK26]

well...a fair (no pun intended) bit has happened to peach. I know that the Bomber has gotten slightly stronger, her fthrow can kill at high percentages, dair was so good of a combo starter at low percents that they had to nerf its damage output somewhat, her fsmash is NO LONGER RANDOM (after the random first swing, it goes in order: club, pan, racket...), all the hits of her dash attack connect corectly, and when you land onstage from an up-b, you recover faster if the umbrella is open than if it's closed.

And though it doesnt affect peach directly, most airdodges have been changed to come closer to peach's in the invincibility:vulnerability ratio. Hers is still the worst, but the difference between hers and others' is smaller

And this is just from the latest changelist.

EDIT: I made my stage list (a few pages back) into technicolor!

EDITEDIT: ok. Results of Lylat Cruise testing:

-1) There are four backgrounds: Corneria, asteroid field, battle, and one where there's a bunch of small asteroids and a few small ships flying around. I will be calling that last one "#4". This is fact -1 because we knew this before the game came out.
0) You cannot go through the same transformation twice in a row. That should be obvious, and thus gets the distinction of being fact 0.
1) The ship's path is COMPLETELY NON-RANDOM. It is directly linked to each of the four backgrounds. On each, there is precisely ONE path that the ship takes.
2) To the best of my knowledge, each of the asteroid field, the battle, and #4 have 2 different start points and end points. All of these points are along the same line. If S and E are Start and End, then the paths for these three look like S1..........S2.............................E1..........E2. Just because you start at S1 doesnt necessarily mean you will end at E1.
3) The Corneria background is always the same: The ship comes out of the warp, leans to one side and stabilizes (several consecutive incerasingly small leans), plunges into the planet's atmosphere, leans to one side and stabilizes again, stays straight for about 20 seconds, comes out of the atmosphere, leans to one side and stabilizes for the third time, then quickly warps. The time between warps is approximately 38 seconds.
4) I didnt bother to time the other locations, nor will I write an explanation of the ship's movement for them. Fact 3 took long enough to figure out as-is. However, I know they will take around 30-50 seconds based on which start-end combo is used.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think Peach's f-smash being more reliable could be a really big thing for her. For instance, you could throw out some f-smashes so you can get to the one that you want, knowing that you're gonna be able to hit at a certain range and have a certain launch angle. Afaik each f-smash serves a different purpose, so knowing which one is coming shoud be helpful

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

I think Peach's f-smash being more reliable could be a really big thing for her. For instance, you could throw out some f-smashes so you can get to the one that you want, knowing that you're gonna be able to hit at a certain range and have a certain launch angle. Afaik each f-smash serves a different purpose, so knowing which one is coming shoud be helpful

you mean it has an order to it, and its not random like gaw's side b?
i didn't know that lol... does peach need this anyway? and what are you suggesting?