Brawl+ 5.0 RC1 Tactical Discussion Thread

[Mattnumbers]

What if she hits you in the air?

 

[GHNeko]

....then DI up and away.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Have you actually tried this or are you just saying things that should hypothetically work.

And the argument in the first place was about CPing, not having to CP but not wanting to. I guess you just misunderstood what we were talking about.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

The amount of :V on this page is troll-worthy.

Anyway, Matt I'm sure that does work at higher percents. I've had Del and TUSM (I think) do it on me a few times. Not really OP I think.

 

[Mattnumbers]

It's really good against Jiggly it seems, but thats ironic since Jiggs is so good v. Samus.

It really depends on the % range whether it's OP or not.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

If any Zair at all hits high in the air, then nothing is ever followed because they have long animations. -.- If anything is actually silly about Samus at the moment it's jab-cancels stringing into themselves.

The only luck that happens at the CSS is when it's double-blind pick. There is no luck involved with the actual CP rules. Those character who lack real counters tend not to have any counter ability themselves (if they do, it's easy to tone them down and they'll still be "balanced"). You can be balanced to the point of flaw because other characters would have an easier time with certain match ups, or have an actual strength to capitalize on in 2v2 play.

 

[Magus420]

Jab->Charged Shot works at high percents. Jab->D-Tilt works at most (all?) percents too. Since the outside hitbox was also changed to pull you towards Samus for some reason so does Jab->Jab->Jab->Jab->Jab->...

 

[shanus]

Who made the change?

I don't even know who made it!

 

[Mattnumbers]

If any Zair at all hits high in the air, then nothing is ever followed because they have long animations. -.- If anything is actually silly about Samus at the moment it's jab-cancels stringing into themselves.

The only luck that happens at the CSS is when it's double-blind pick. There is no luck involved with the actual CP rules. Those character who lack real counters tend not to have any counter ability themselves (if they do, it's easy to tone them down and they'll still be "balanced"). You can be balanced to the point of flaw because other characters would have an easier time with certain match ups, or have an actual strength to capitalize on in 2v2 play.

Not if samus lands on a platform/the ground and you're in the air. Additionally if you get hit by the top part of the hitbox you probably can't tech either. Honestly I haven't really tested this yet but I don't want it to be dismissed because if it's legitimate at a large % range that is pretty OP in my opinion.

As for why our Character CP system is luck, I have explained that multiple times and I really don't feel like typing it out right now. But it IS luck. I can probably explain it again later today if I have to.

 

[Dantarion]

Matt, how would you make the CP system so that no luck happens.

There will always be times where you get unlucky and a guy just happens to main your worst matchup, and then switches to your 2nd worst matchup after the first game.

Thats why you need to have multiple characters. Smash is very matchup-based sometimes.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Didn't I make a post already about how being counterpicked is much earlier attributed to bad decision making skills long before luck?

There's a difference between luck and just plain being unprepared, and what happens in the advanced slobs CP system is the latter.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Exactly; that brings me back to why I don't think we should have any 70:30 matchups, since it's impossible to remove that luck factor, you can instead make it less important. 60:40 matchups are unavoidable, but I feel that with time we can remove at least most of the 70:30 matchups in the game.

Picking a secondary doesn't actually give you any resistance to being counterpicked, as you don't know beforehand who the person is going to pick. If you have to pick first you can get CPed, and it doesn't matter if you have a secondary because you already picked your character......it only helps in the second round when you use the same stupid luck system to go against your opponents picked character for the next round.

 

[jalued]

Tbh i think this is a stupid argument. You should decide to main a character cause you LIKE the character or playstyle, and just deal with any bad matchups you may experience. Just casue a matchup isnt in your favour doesnt mean you cant win it, its all about experience. Its not like this game goes: 70-30...U WILL LOOSE SO GIVE UP NOW!!!

just relax matt, matchups arnt everything. Just learn to cp stages better or practice more vs harder matchups

 

[Mattnumbers]

Except having a matchup at 30:70 literally means that at the same amount of skill, one person has a 30% chance to win and the other has a 70% chance to win. Matchups are already taking skill into account. And it's ridiculous that you would have such a disadvantage.

Also loose instead of lose is my most hated typo ever, I don't know it's just a pet peeve please change it haha.

 

[jalued]

Except having a matchup at 30:70 literally means that at the same amount of skill, one person has a 30% chance to win and the other has a 70% chance to win. Matchups are already taking skill into account. And it's ridiculous that you would have such a disadvantage.

Also loose instead of lose is my most hated typo ever, I don't know it's just a pet peeve please change it haha.

but im sure its possible to choose a second that covers all ur main characters flaws. or maybe play 3 characters. There are 40 characters to choose from, so obviously not impossible. I dont think its possible to get rid of 70-30 matchups tbh, i mean, how would u make sheik vs ganon 60-40 without overpowering ganon against other matchups?

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I'd like to know what self-respecting tournament forces you to stick with your first character choice without being able to switch on a whim while on the CSS in the first game of a set. Everyone is free to switch characters at will until it gets to a point where infinite counterpick looping occurs.

Tbh i think this is a stupid argument. You should decide to main a character cause you LIKE the character or playstyle, and just deal with any bad matchups you may experience. Just casue a matchup isnt in your favour doesnt mean you cant win it, its all about experience. Its not like this game goes: 70-30...U WILL LOOSE SO GIVE UP NOW!!!

just relax matt, matchups arnt everything. Just learn to cp stages better or practice more vs harder matchups

That's cute. <3
But you're not playing to win.

 

[Mattnumbers]

But the CP system makes that not matter as you don't know who the other person is going to pick since you have to pick first. Why do I keep having to repeat myself X(. Then when you pick yours second you get to pick someone that doesn't do bad against their character, but in this case the other player has to deal with the same stupid problem! (Unless of course you just pick the character with the least amount of bad matchups, which people will end up doing).

 

[Mattnumbers]

I'd like to know what self-respecting tournament forces you to stick with your first character choice without being able to switch on a whim while on the CSS in the first game of a set. Everyone is free to switch characters at will until it gets to a point where infinite counterpick looping occurs.

That's cute. <3
But you're not playing to win.

I'm pretty sure that it's in the official rule set ryoko. So those tourneys would be operating against the advised rules of the BR.

 

[jalued]

I'd like to know what self-respecting tournament forces you to stick with your first character choice without being able to switch on a whim while on the CSS in the first game of a set. Everyone is free to switch characters at will until it gets to a point where infinite counterpick looping occurs.

That's cute. <3
But you're not playing to win.

well technically if u choose a second to cover weaknesses' ur main has (ie marth and ZSS) then isnt it all good? This is brawl+ people not vbrawl!! you dont have to choose MK or snake to win!! MK isnt unbeatable anymore!!! he has BAD matchups!!!

 

[Alphatron]

As long as we don't have extreme matchup issues, the next best thing to do would be to learn your disadvantages and attempt to cover them. Even if you're a space fox and your enemy Gs that blasted electric rodent.

 

[GameSystem]

I'm pretty sure that it's in the official rule set ryoko. So those tourneys would be operating against the advised rules of the BR.

BR rules aren't the end-all-be-all ruleset. Tons of tournies use other sets. The BR set is mostly used as a guideline.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

I'd like to know what self-respecting tournament forces you to stick with your first character choice without being able to switch on a whim while on the CSS in the first game of a set. Everyone is free to switch characters at will until it gets to a point where infinite counterpick looping occurs.

To be precise, the rules we use in Paris which I was referring to are either :

- Single character for the whole tournament

or

- Fixed main, free secondary. You have to use your main (that you announced upon registering for the first match against every opponent. You only get to switch characters (and freely counterpick since you don't have to announce a secondary) if you lose a match. All games from pools to semifinals = first to 2, finals = first to 3.

You should decide to main a character cause you LIKE the character or playstyle, and just deal with any bad matchups you may experience.

You shouldn't even have to discuss the reason why you main a character. If you main a character because you think the choice will help you win then there's nothing wrong with that. It just becomes ridiculous to make excuses after that.

 

[MK26]

but matt, if you have to choose first, that means you won the first match
and anyways, name some 70:30 matchups. any. i think you're just freaking out over nothing man.

 

[GameSystem]

ICs vs Ganon, Pit vs Luigi, more but I'm not sure about them.

 

[Dark Sonic]

ICs vs Ganon, Pit vs Luigi, more but I'm not sure about them.

Pit vs Luigi isn't that bad <_<.

 

[GameSystem]

If pit planks Luigi can do nothing. Ground approaches are countered by wind push. It sends him halfway across FD. Pit's Uair beats all of Luigi's aerials if he tries to approach from the air. If pits hangs out at the edge. Luigi can't do anything.

Edit: On stage, Pit's jab clashes with luigi's nado and fireballs, it also has a hitbox behind him. Luigi can't approach from the ground at all as long as pit just mashes the A button. Luigi is mainly forced into aerial approaches which are still beat by pit's retreating nair and uair. Add in arrow damage and arrows gimping luigi's recovery easily. When pit planks on the edge. He gets free damage from every wind push from ledge hop arrows. It's just an ugly match.

Edit 2: On stage wings of icarus wind push also makes it so that Luigi can't get close. It sets up for arrows or possible edge guard since he gets pushed so far .

 

[Alphatron]

I don't see ICs vs. Ganondorf being as bad this time around.

 

[jalued]

I don't see ICs vs. Ganondorf being as bad this time around.

Are the IC chaingrab infinites really gone now??

 

[GameSystem]

Infinites don't matter. Desynced blizzards shut down all of ganon's approaches. Icicles just for general spam add damage. There are still a bunch of chain grabs on ganon that do crazy damage. Then all of ganon's flame choke tricks mean nothing since it doesn't have a hitbox after it grabs someone. That means nana or popo can interrupt it and take no damage and then proceed to **** ganon some more.

 

[jokey665]

Oh something regarding ICs that's probably known but i'm bringing it up anyway. Down-throw chaingrab on walls works to at least 60 on Ike, because I did it yesterday.

 

[jalued]

Infinites don't matter. Desynced blizzards shut down all of ganon's approaches. Icicles just for general spam add damage. There are still a bunch of chain grabs on ganon that do crazy damage. Then all of ganon's flame choke tricks mean nothing since it doesn't have a hitbox after it grabs someone. That means nana or popo can interrupt it and take no damage and then proceed to **** ganon some more.

what about ganons downB? or his fair spaced? surely it must be better. You are also not commenting on no autosweetspots which make it easier for ganon to edgeguard/ dair the ICers. Having said that i dont have much experience in this matchup, but it cant be worse than it was in vbrawl right?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

ganon's down b has TERRIBLE priority and is beaten out by blizzard, no joke.

and his fair is beaten out by icicles or blizzard as well, I presume.

 

[GameSystem]

Ganon has bad aerial mobility. If IC see ganon jumping. they will laugh at him and wait for him to land. Then they will **** him with something. Blizzard has more range than spaced fair. IC can recover high and spam icicles on the edge and recover with squall hammer. IC up b has huge range and ganon probably can't gimp it anyway.

 

[Alphatron]

You can't interrupt flame choke after he grabs due to super armor. But he gets no followups.

And dthrow chaingrab is still in, wall or not. Only works at low %.

 

[GameSystem]

So that means only one IC eats 7% or w/e and then ganon gets super punished with grab, smash or something else.

 

[jalued]

So that means only one IC eats 7% or w/e and then ganon gets super punished with grab, smash or something else.

ok so its a bad matchup. But is it any better than it was?

 

[GHNeko]

Yes? Because Ganon can Still punish ICs pretty hard with the right moves.

 

[Alphatron]

Yes? Because Ganon can Still punish ICs pretty hard with the right moves.

And any character is good if you know how to use them. You'll have to elaborate.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm saying that the match up is better than it was in Brawl. That's all.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

So I guess we'll have to look into balancing the cast some more...