Brawl+ 5.0 RC1 Tactical Discussion Thread

[stingers]

lucario def doesnt need buffs...you just suck

 

[Andarel]

Uhhhhh... Lucario doesn't need buffs. He's got range, decent speed, okay power, a projectile, good juggling abilities and one of the best recoveries in the game right now.

If I'd actually wanted to make lucario get a buff, I'd have talked about moves that aren't numbered among his best, I suppose. Dunno. And his speed's better than decent, especially his rolls. So fast...boo.


I think Guy and all posts below his, barring WOF's, contain at least trace amounts of sarcasm.

(Hm, SWF has a bit overactive censors. Whatever.)

 

[Swordplay]

With regard to this whole "counter" thing The goal of B+ should be to remove character strategies/tactics/traits that polarize the game. That's my take on it.

That being said. I want B+ to be a game where you don't necessarily need a secondary or 2, but it would BE HELLA USEFUL and make you much better as a PLAYER at the GAME. Now, this may not be possible with ALL characters but if B+ can get most characters to be like this AND all characters having a number of advantageous matchups to make them worth picking up, I'd be satisfied. (Even if some of these characters can't go alone because a counter exists)

 

[cAm8ooo]

I really dont understand what all the fuss is about regarding counters and matchups when we really dont have enough evidence to be discussing what matchups have gone pass the line. We should be using our time to get out and play and come back with good tourney experience on each of these characters instead of theorycrafting using old vbrawl matchups and trying to plusify them. I would understand if three months from now we believe that several characters have 80-20 matchups and we want to do something about it but currently all the discussion is doing is attempting to fight an invisible (and perhaps not even existent) enemy.

It's perfectly fine to have some 70-30 matchups in a game consisting of 40 diverse characters and quite frankly i find it's inevitable. If you want to do something about it though then come back when we have good evidence that this is indeed a problem. The WBR has given us time to PLAY the game and discover these things, so lets go out and do it. Each character board should be going through matchups, discussing how their character is stacking up and advancing their metagame. Not demanding fixes for unexplored matchups.

Get out there. Get some data.

 

[jalued]

bring this discussion here please: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=250028&page=7

lets make a proper matchup chart before complaining about theoretical hard counters

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Well Andarel that was just a joke honestly, Lucario SEEMS fine. :X Though through MY eyes, which can't be taken seriously, he needs a bit more.

I haven't yet to find one person who mains him D:

Honestly there's a lot wrong with RC1 that I'd rather not say.

 

[Alphatron]

So long as you aren't asking for changes, you should come out and say them.

 

[shanus]

Well Andarel that was just a joke honestly, Lucario SEEMS fine. :X Though through MY eyes, which can't be taken seriously, he needs a bit more.

I haven't yet to find one person who mains him D:

Honestly there's a lot wrong with RC1 that I'd rather not say.

MM my lucario.

 

[Alphatron]

lol Bowser can't auto cancel fairs anymore, I realized.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

MM my lucario.

**** that, I'd john > ragequit.

Best combo ever.

 

[Shell]

Honestly there's a lot wrong with RC1 that I'd rather not say.

Well you can't expect it to get fixed, then, can you?

 

[DarkDragoon]

I haven't yet to find one person who mains him D:

MM my Lucario.

Well you can't expect it to get fixed, then, can you?

OSHI-
-DD

 

[iLink]

MM my Lucario : D

EDIT: The only thing I would really like is for his down-b to be fast enough to actually hit them and maybe an ever so small damage buff because at low percents, you can land like 5 hits and only do around 25%

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Well you can't expect it to get fixed, then, can you?

I'd expect to get bashed.

Not a fun thing to go through.

 

[CloneHat]

I'd expect to get bashed.

Not a fun thing to go through.

Well if everyone's to afraid to voice their opinion, I guess there are no problems at all.

Carry on.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

God dammit, I got lelouche'd.

ffffffffff

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

ridding the game of any counter, hard or soft, effectively makes all characters perform and act the same, ruining what Smash bros is.

Being about equally effective != "act the same". What you should do with your character in order to apply a match-up can vary depending on which character you're facing. Not all 50/50 match-ups are to be handled the same way.

Then again, I admit that my view is biased by the tournament rules enforced where I live (whether it's Smash, SoulCalibur IV, SF IV, Guilty Gear or whatever, we have to announce our mains upon registering and are not allowed to switch characters at all/only after losing a match). I guess France just hates counter-picking.

 

[jokey665]

Then again, I admit that my view is biased by the tournament rules enforced where I live (whether it's Smash, SoulCalibur IV, SF IV, Guilty Gear or whatever, we have to announce our mains upon registering and are not allowed to switch characters at all/only after losing a match). I guess France just hates counter-picking.

I went to a few Melee tournaments like that back in the day. You pick your main at the beginning and can't switch the whole time. Led to me going Marth a lot more than I would have liked, but I still pulled wins out with other characters on occasion(including mewtwo and g&w ).

 

[Mattnumbers]

Listen to the French guy

 

[jalued]

Then again, I admit that my view is biased by the tournament rules enforced where I live (whether it's Smash, SoulCalibur IV, SF IV, Guilty Gear or whatever, we have to announce our mains upon registering and are not allowed to switch characters at all/only after losing a match). I guess France just hates counter-picking.

Doesnt that technically limit the number of characters played in tournaments though? Using vbrawl as an extreame example, everyone would choose MK, snake, marth and diddy, as they have the most consistant advantage matchups in the game.

Maybe a better solution would be that everyone can choose 2 characters to play atmost, Anyone who wanted to main jigglypuff wouldnt have to fear a marth player, since they could set their second as sheik for example. Wouldnt that add more strategy to the game since there are hundreds of combinations available for preference.

For example, a pretty dam good vBrawl European player Mr R (before he became lame and played snake like everyone else ....) mained Marth and seconded ZSS to cover any weak matchups. This should be encouraged!

surely brawl+ is balanced enough that you can main 2 characters without having any counters

 

[Mattnumbers]

Doesnt that technically limit the number of characters played in tournaments though? Using vbrawl as an extreame example, everyone would choose MK, snake, marth and diddy, as they have the most consistant advantage matchups in the game.

Maybe a better solution would be that everyone can choose 2 characters to play atmost, Anyone who wanted to main jigglypuff wouldnt have to fear a marth player, since they could set their second as sheik for example. Wouldnt that add more strategy to the game since there are hundreds of combinations available for preference.

For example, a pretty dam good vBrawl European player Mr R (before he became lame and played snake like everyone else ....) mained Marth and seconded ZSS to cover any weak matchups. This should be encouraged!

surely brawl+ is balanced enough that you can main 2 characters without having any counters

One of the problems is that with the current CP system if you must choose first then it's not like you already know exactly which characters they main. It doesn't matter if you have a secondary that doesn't get countered if you pick your main thinking that you won't run into a certain character.

 

[jalued]

One of the problems is that with the current CP system if you must choose first then it's not like you already know exactly which characters they main. It doesn't matter if you have a secondary that doesn't get countered if you pick your main thinking that you won't run into a certain character.

but thats why its best of 3 and not best of 1

 

[Mattnumbers]

But then it's just a matter of luck if they decide to risk you CPing their main. No matter what it comes down to the characters without any counters being the best choice to go with.

 

[CloneHat]

But then it's just a matter of luck if they decide to risk you CPing their main. No matter what it comes down to the characters without any counters being the best choice to go with.

...of course. >_>

Anyways, what character doesn't have counters?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Every character (in Brawl+ at least) has soft counters, which aren't what I'm talking about.

I'm talking 30:70 and higher, and no not all characters have them.

 

[jokey665]

Who are MK's "counters"? All I know is that Jigglypuff is not one of them. >_>

 

[Mattnumbers]

I don't think he has any full counters yet.

He probably at least has one or two soft counters though.

Probably.

 

[Shadic]

Every character (in Brawl+ at least) has soft counters, which aren't what I'm talking about.

I'm talking 30:70 and higher, and no not all characters have them.

Which is annoying, and going to lead to a less diverse played cast, especially if those characters have 70:30 matches against other characters.

Anyways, I sure wish we could edit stages or something.

As for Metaknight - I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a match worse than 60:40. He's too flexible, and good at most everything that he does.

 

[-Chad-]

Samus questions.

Why do her bombs make her inable to do anything for quite a long time after laying them and bouncing off them?

Also where is the sweetspot on her u-air, most of the time I can never connect it and that's the part that actually has hitstun :x

Other than that, I like Samus and I find her fun to use.

 

[CloneHat]

Samus questions.

Why do her bombs make her inable to do anything for quite a long time after laying them and bouncing off them?

Also where is the sweetspot on her u-air, most of the time I can never connect it and that's the part that actually has hitstun :x

Other than that, I like Samus and I find her fun to use.

Her bombs have lag because she's in the morph ball. Now that you mention it, it would be nice it the cooldown got reduced...

Just try and hit with the center of her legs for uair. Opponents can still get out of it with SDI on most occasions, however.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I'd call DK a counter for MK. I listed these same reasons not too long ago, but MK has a hard time killing him, and DK has an easy time killing MK. DK's amazing horizontal recovery is perfect for this match-up, since MK can't spike him. DK can also keep up decently speed-wise. Basically the same reasons that DK was only at a slight disadvantage to MK in vBrawl, but MK is more punishable now. I'd say the match-up is 55-45, bordering on 60-40 in DK's favor.

 

[-Chad-]

Most of the time it seems I can only reach with the tip and then I fall while hitting them so the sweetspot never connects. It really blows sometimes.

Using bombs sucks really badly cause of the amount of lag. It's not like it's a great move to begin with but with all the lag it's almost unusable.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I don't know if this is DIable but it seems to me that Zair -> Charge shot with Samus is an actual combo.

Again, I just remember people doing it to me a couple times, maybe I just had bad DI or something.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Most of the time it seems I can only reach with the tip and then I fall while hitting them so the sweetspot never connects. It really blows sometimes.

Using bombs sucks really badly cause of the amount of lag. It's not like it's a great move to begin with but with all the lag it's almost unusable.

@U-Air: The move is actually very good. Instead of trying to connect with the tip. Fastfall along with them and perform U-Air. Most people Airdodge while falling. And it works.

*Learnt that from M2K's interview.*

 

[CloneHat]

@U-Air: The move is actually very good. Instead of trying to connect with the tip. Fastfall along with them and perform U-Air. Most people Airdodge while falling. And it works.

*Learnt that from M2K's interview.*

Or fast fall along with them with a dair.

 

[-Chad-]

well my main problem with the move is that I try to do like, d-throw to u-air and I can only usually hit with the bottom of it and doesn't do the knockback part. I dunno, it's very finicky and I can rarely get it to work when I want. It usually leaves me at a disadvantage cause they can just nair out with most chars if the knockback doesn't happen.

 

[GHNeko]

Mattnumbers, lrn2doubleblindpick.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Samus's Uair is just bad at linking even with reduced SDI because the linking hits occur in very fast succession and ASDI in this game is dumb.

Try dthrow-Usmash.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Mattnumbers, lrn2doubleblindpick.

Errrrrrr........that's a non-counterpick system since you don't even, you know, counter pick?


Also could somebody get back to me on whether Samus's zair to charge shot is a legitimate combo at some percents? It seems kinda broken to me if it is.

 

[GHNeko]

Errrrrrr........that's a non-counterpick system since you don't even, you know, counter pick?

err...

But then it's just a matter of luck if they decide to risk you CPing their main. No matter what it comes down to the characters without any counters being the best choice to go with.

If you're worried about being CP'd at the character select screen, lrn2doubleblindpick.

Also could somebody get back to me on whether Samus's zair to charge shot is a legitimate combo at some percents? It seems kinda broken to me if it is.

It's not. DI + Tech