Ban brinstar and rainbow cruise

[Palpi]

Then don't strike to it

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Pocky, remember that definition of competitive fairness? How did it go, again?

If you're judging based on competitive fairness then you should also have corneria, mute city, floats, and possibly green greens and MK2. None of those stages are competitively unfair. All of those stages are just really ****ty to play on if you play a certain character. None of them are biased so that the faster character can run away forever or make players lose games because of completely random effects.

edit- we have to balance stage lists assuming that the majority of players main a certain character even if they have 1 or 2 secondaries for certain match-ups or stages. Being able to force a character switch automatically by picking a stage is pretty **** unfair.

 

[pockyD]

but as a community, we have accepted that it is due to bowser's shortcomings as a character rather than a stage-based imbalance

there is no real meaning of 'fair' for a matchup that is independent of the existing stage list, so to come back and try to argue whether a stage is 'fair' or not really doesn't lead anywhere

battlefield only



@Sveet - There's more to stage legality than being "fair". It's just as important, if not more so, to ensure that we are testing a stable set of base skills that are deemed important. It's perfectly 'fair' to require that both players wear an eyepatch and have their index and middle fingers taped together, but that's a fairly significant deviation from what we accept to be the most natural state of the game

which is battlefield only

 

[bertbusdriver]

Then don't strike to it

I should have elaborated more....

IS THE STAGE ACCEPTABLE FOR COMPETITIVE PLAY? If so, it should be legal. If not, it should be banned. If it is 'sometimes' acceptable, then it is NOT acceptable.

A player's ban shouldn't see their hand forced due to the innate unfairness of the stage. Any stage that is an "obvious" ban most likely shouldn't be legal at all

^
That's what I was referring to. If you were a bowser main playing a falco main, FD would be an "obvious ban." You could make this arguement for fox v jiggs at DL 64. But obviously I'm not advocating that we ban DL 64 and FD, but if we continue with this mindset of "ban everything that's lopsided for some matchups" we're going to run out of stages to ban.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

@Sveet - There's more to stage legality than being "fair". It's just as important, if not more so, to ensure that we are testing a stable set of base skills that are deemed important. It's perfectly 'fair' to require that both players wear an eyepatch and have their index and middle fingers taped together, but that's a fairly significant deviation from what we accept to be the most natural state of the game

which is battlefield only

Being able to force a character switch automatically by picking a stage is pretty **** unfair.

Spoiler

asdfasdfasdf

 

[pockyD]

it's not about whether a stage is lopsided for some matchups

it's whether the deviation in the matchup is 'excessive' compared to whatever ideal you hold for a perfectly neutral stage (which for me, I use battlefield as the closest approximation). Given that sheik poops on bowser everywhere, you can't use the fact that sheik poops on bowser on dreamland as evidence that the stage is bad

@sveet do you think you're making sense? I'm having a hard time following what you think you're trying to say

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

@pockyd do you think you're smart with your posts? sophist king i guess.... btw was is your stance anyways?

 

[bertbusdriver]

There's more to stage legality than being "fair". It's just as important, if not more so, to ensure that we are testing a stable set of base skills that are deemed important

Well by this benchmark, FD doesn't test the players' ability to maneuver platforms. i suck at isai drops

i'm mostly joking about this FD stuff though...

 

[pockyD]

@pockyd do you think you're smart with your posts? sophist king i guess.... btw was is your stance anyways?

my stance is battlefield only

I thought that was fairly clear

and yeah, I'm incredibly smart!

Well by this benchmark, FD doesn't test the players' ability to maneuver platforms. i suck at isai drops

i'm mostly joking about this FD stuff though...

...and if the community at large deems that platform movement is a crucial skill to test, then it's entirely possible that FD isn't fit for competitive play

 

[bertbusdriver]

pocky i wish i knew if you were joking about your battlefield only stance

 

[pockyD]

I'm half joking and half not

I do believe it would be the 'fairest' system, and if that is the ideal, then it is the best solution.

I personally love battlefield and would not at all mind playing exclusively on that stage.

That said, I do not on any level believe that such a system will ever catch on, so I'm not making a real push to convince other people to join my perspective

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Hey sveet what are your veiws on brinstar dpeths? it's crapy for some people but you still have more recovery options than mute city(walls to jump with, wait for stage to change, land on low part of stage or high or on a platform and there are noramly 2 options.

it isn't a run around stage but maybe if they pick kirby and they pick falcon but I still don't even know about that. i'll look for more broken stuff on that stage I guess.

In truth I like KJ64 even when i'm not timing out slow a** charcters with pichu XD or something.

however at some point it's crazy to bend rules for terrible charcters like that. kirby can't caugh fox on that stage well kirby can go o the middle at the begining and force fox to not camp till he gets a lead same for most people being uber camped there. H*** powersheild a single laser back and they'll freak-out can give up their tactic because they think i'll fail.

in truth I could camp kirby to death on DL64 it isn't hard. Kirby has no way to even keep up with people in a normal match other than camping and trying to force them into his bair. they try to do the same with his weakeness that is so easy to abuse.

some of the slowest should be totally forgotten when it comes to circle camping because kirby lacks a solid form of pressure anyways so yeah why wouldn't you camp him if the only way he really punishes is by you running into s***

 

[TheGoat]

yeah I know what they mean, but I really don't think the people claiming it know what they mean

The edges are 100% predictable, and failing to recover on battlefield is no different from lacking any other sort of basic stage knowledge (being unable to get low enough to sweetspot on yoshi's story, neglecting your opponents' walljumps, not knowing you can ride the wall on FD, etc.). It's a crutch complaint that virtually completely disappears at the higher levels of play

battlefield *****

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M6I7KSRhpU#t=02m39s

 

[pockyD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M6I7KSRhpU#t=02m39s

it's repeatable and avoidable

Edit:

Each character has 2 ledge grab boxes. One in front and one in back which are both of equal size for that character. If your front ledge grab box overlaps the platform's ledge grab zone without your rear box overlapping you grab the ledge. Having the rear box connect prevents you from grabbing a ledge. The exception to this is on moves that allow you to grab ledges facing both ways (CF & Ganon's up-bs for example). This is how people get 'Battlefielded', since the stage allows you to get too far in which allows it to connect and you miss the ledge.

and

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=116475

 

[RoboticOwnageBuddy]

brinstar is fair if u know how to avoid thr acid, but rainbow cruise is fail for tourneys.
Big Blue is also cheap to hell and beyond.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

the acid can't be avoided when someone is grabbed. sheik's d-throw into rest is mad easy as puff to abuse XD. also forced air game when the air game is WAY more one sided than the ground game.

 

[bertbusdriver]

why would you even mention big blue. it's not legal, and no one is arguing that we make it legal.

edit: and pocky is correct. if you're using peach it's really easy to get too close to the ledge to grab it. you need to know where you can grab the ledge on battlefield

doubledit: look at pocky's post. he edited it with magus' info while i was editing mine...

 

[MT_]

RC and Brinstar both fundamentally change how both players are going to play in a match relative to 'standard play'.

'Standard play' refers to the type of play that occurs on the current list of neutral stages. Addressing the argument that says "if we ban RC and Brinstar, then we should just ban everything except Battlefield (or whatever)," keep in mind that the basic play style on each of those neutrals (FoD, YS, PS, DL64, and BF) are all the same. I honestly don't see why RC and Brinstar are legal, and why there is possibly even a debate as to why they are legal. If you can't see how RC and Brinstar deviate heavily from standard play... then you need to be more open-minded lol.

FD is a different story. I think spending time debating on FD (and possibly PS) is a better use of our energies.

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

neutrals

battlefield
yoshi's
dreamland


counterpicks
FD
PS
FoD.



most fair rules tbh

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I'd go to FD as pichu vs sheik don't get grabbed.

Fd lets us max out pressure in a lot of ways. Amazing stage.

but most people have tools to avoid grabs like being airbore, useing a move, not getting hit, and etc..

 

[Ripple]

RC and Brinstar both fundamentally change how both players are going to play in a match relative to 'standard play'.

'Standard play' refers to the type of play that occurs on the current list of neutral stages. Addressing the argument that says "if we ban RC and Brinstar, then we should just ban everything except Battlefield (or whatever)," keep in mind that the basic play style on each of those neutrals (FoD, YS, PS, DL64, and BF) are all the same. I honestly don't see why RC and Brinstar are legal, and why there is possibly even a debate as to why they are legal. If you can't see how RC and Brinstar deviate heavily from standard play... then you need to be more open-minded lol.

FD is a different story. I think spending time debating on FD (and possibly PS) is a better use of our energies.

maybe because smash ISN'T A STANDARD FIGHTER?

seriously, anyone who wants to limit smash down to just flat stages might as well play ssf4. smash is a PLATFORM FIGHTER. I already told everyone that you can't just take away stages because "they aren't standard". what does that even mean? that's completely subjective. every stage has PvS. you can not argue that you want the most PvP to happen, because if you did, you would randomness and hazards since that takes away from the aspect but you'd have to remove PS1 and brinstar but not RC because it has NO HAZARDS AND IS NOT RANDOM. good luck not having some sort of double standard

you are using what other games are like and trying to change smash into those games. why would you want to take away from smashes uniquness as a fighter?

 

[Hax]

Ripple it almost sounds as if you want competitive smash to be like mario party. because it isn't blatantly obvious enough for you, i will state it: the rules we employ strive to achieve as skillbased and competitive of a game as possible. the only characteristic of smash we are stripping is its party game design; we do this by removing items and unfair stages. to make this game competitive we must eliminate the stages that offer ridiculous advantages to certain characters and/or possess hazards that add a huge luck factor to the game.

stop with the "no hazards + not random = fair stage!" logic. this criteria fails to analyze the shape of a stage, a department in which RC is clearly at fault.

and no, allowing stages with hazards yet wanting to ban brinstar is not a double standard. you fail to analyze the magnitude of these hazards. do you know what magnitude means, Ripple? DL64 has a hazard in the form of wind; should we ban it for this reason? no, because the wind hardly affects the game. the same goes for Randall on YS. neither of these compare to the damage brinstar's lava can do.

 

[KirbyKaze]

you know, Falco Party 4 has a nice ring to it

 

[Winston]

Hax, do you not think timing slow characters out on KJ64 is an issue?

Or do you think that nobody has proven that it's an unbeatable strategy (in those matchups) yet / isn't a problem because nobody is willing to abuse it?

 

[Niko45]

Smash is certainly a very different game from street fighter regardless of flat stage or not. We don't need RC or Brinstar to separate ourselves from street fighter, which by the way, isn't anyone's particular goal either. o_O

I mean, seems pretty universal at least in friendlies to play with the 5 neutrals + stadium on random...so why do we suddenly include these stages none of us really enjoy in tournament?

 

[Stev]

Hax, do you not think timing slow characters out on KJ64 is an issue?

Or do you think that nobody has proven that it's an unbeatable strategy (in those matchups) yet / isn't a problem because nobody is willing to abuse it?

I'm pretty sure he said earlier that he recognized that KJ64 is a bit flawed, but moved on since that is not pertaining to the topic of the OP. Unless my memory is wrong...

 

[Druggedfox]

hax, do you not think timing slow characters out on kj64 is an issue?

Or do you think that nobody has proven that it's an unbeatable strategy (in those matchups) yet / isn't a problem because nobody is willing to abuse it?

=DDD

Falco vs puff/peach anybody?

 

[Doser]

maybe because smash ISN'T A STANDARD FIGHTER?

seriously, anyone who wants to limit smash down to just flat stages might as well play ssf4. smash is a PLATFORM FIGHTER. I already told everyone that you can't just take away stages because "they aren't standard". what does that even mean? that's completely subjective. every stage has PvS. you can not argue that you want the most PvP to happen, because if you did, you would randomness and hazards since that takes away from the aspect but you'd have to remove PS1 and brinstar but not RC because it has NO HAZARDS AND IS NOT RANDOM. good luck not having some sort of double standard

you are using what other games are like and trying to change smash into those games. why would you want to take away from smashes uniqueness as a fighter?

You couldn't tell from the context of the post that standard meant relative to smash, that in melee we want a standard type of play on stages. That doesn't mean we want it to be totally street fighter-esque, in fact I have no idea how you would be able to make melee into street fighter using only rule changes and banning.

I think what you aren't understanding is that people want to play on stages that are generally fair for each character. You say that it is just a character's fault if they are awful at one stage, but the players opposing you are stating that there is an easy alternative. You can simply not play stages that are very lop-sided, instead you play on more balanced stages which don't overly emphasize any one character. They want to have tournaments focus more on players and less on stage picking. You seem to think that the competitive nature doesn't devolve in the slightest when it turns into a counter pick fest after the initial game.

When you are talking about rainbow cruise and brinstar you are neglecting to see the stage as a whole. While rainbow cruise may not be random, the movement of the stage certainly favors certain characters much more than other stages favor characters. There is more to a stage being viable than randomness and hazards. The flow of rainbow cruise really hurts characters. Brinstar while not being random has an element in it that can be very detrimental to players, the lava not only does a good deal of damage for you it also puts you in an awful position. No other stage has a hazard of that magnitude. Also the stage can be split up which lets certain characters camp very easily.

I don't see how the scene gains from having those two stages in. There is still stage diversity, the remaining stages aren't all clones from each other, they are just more suited for tournament play. It seems people don't really like the counter pick system to begin with, and these two stages just make it worse. People would rather play 2 or 3 games on equal footing than 1 equal and the other 2 in one person's favor, at least that is what I have gathered.

 

[S l o X]

IF you don't know why they're legal, you much not be very smart.

I understand why you play Pokemon instead of other, tcgs. (:

i'm still laughing at this, i'm not even going to read the last few pages.


lol pokemon tcg. only trolls play those.

 

[Strong Badam]

Aren't you in the Melee Back Room, Hax?
Why are you telling us to ban two stages, where you're in a far more influential position to affect the most popular ruleset.

 

[P.C. Jona]

any stage that literally entirely moves should be banned

kj64 should be banned just because of what pink shinobi did at genesis

i like the european stage list

nothing gay

no surprises

no unfair camping

straight up skill

 

[john!]

hmm just noticed this topic. i've supported the idea of 7 neutrals for a while. lemme dig up an old post.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10638162&postcount=180

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Firstly, my stance: No counter-picking system. FoD, YS, BF, DL64, FD and PS. I've been playing since 2003, yet this has only recently become my opinion on the matter.

Let me point out that there is actually only one reason to ban a stage: Decreasing the amount of depth and skill required in the game.

There is no point adding a stage just for the sake of adding it. Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise/Ride should be banned because any depth they add to the game is nullified by what they take away from the game.

For example, RR/RC takes away vital aspects of the game such as edge-guarding, it also makes running away and camping (a far less deep and skillful option than approaching) more viable during most of the stage. It adds depth by giving a player who knows the stage well an advantage (this argument would apply much more to Poke Floats though, RR/RC is very easy to learn), it also adds depth to aerial combat and focusing on the stage as well as you and your opponent's character.

However, I would say that it takes away more depth than it adds, so there is NO REASON TO HAVE THE STAGE. The stage is rarely chosen, and often turned off for friendlies as is because no one likes it, so preference is not a reason to keep it around.

The same case can be made for Brinstar. It has some aspects that subtract depth and some that add it, but it appears to over-all take away depth.

THAT is why they should be banned. None of this **** about whether they are random or if certain characters are too good on them. If the game is deeper without the stage, why have it?

It is up to the TO to decide if the stage actually adds or removes depth of course.

 

[MT_]

The other day I beat a Marth player that was significantly better than me by counter-picking him to RC and switching to Fox. He had just finished 3 stocking me in the previous match, and on RC I came close to 4stocking him just by abusing the stage.

The entire argument of "do you want to degrade SSBM as a unique fighter into stuff like SSF4" for keeping certain stages legal is so flawed. We are trying to make SSBM as competitive as possible; meaning we are trying to make the outcomes of matches in SSBM as highly skill-biased as possible. The Marth player I mentioned above is like two leagues above me in skill, yet I pretty much dominated him on RC just by abusing the stage and how the matchup runs on it.

How is this competitive at all?

SSBM wasn't meant to be competitive. Hence we have items, fun stages, and et cetera. However, as a competitive community we strive to make the game as competitive as possible, meaning the outcome of the matches most often represent the player of highest skill. Keeping these queer stages that allow mere mastery of tactics to dominate a match as opposed to your skill in relation to your opponent's skill is pure bogus.

 

[Ghostbone]

Grim I disagree that the stages remove depth, as Rainbow Ride/Cruise add's a lot of options for recovery and adds a lot of different movement options. Though I will concede that it promotes camping.
Though I will point you to Pokemon Stadium and how that stage MUCH MORE HEAVILY promotes camping during some of the transformations, though whether that's enough to heavily affect the match, who knows.

Brinstar on the other hand I feel doesn't subtract to much depth at all. And I actually think this stage is more legit than RC now. The lava ADDS combos and the terrain can be affected by the players to benefit them. Sure it gives advantages to certain characters, the same way that FD gives certain characters an advantage, or Dreamland.
It's a bad stage for Fox, Falco and CF, we shouldn't cater the stagelist to them.

Although it's completely up to the TO whether they think the stages are worth keeping or not.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

how is brinstar fair? it literally forces characters to move onto platforms, which means all the ground based characters get screwed and it forces either camping or close positions during those phases too. Not to mention platform camping is already a really strong strategy on that stage because of how isolated each of the platforms are. IMO, brinstar forces character switches stronger than cruise.

Fox is good on both of them, so i dont really care much.

 

[Bones0]

I've been reading this thread for a while and just felt like I should post up my suggestion for a new rule set just to see what people who do support the new ban think. I think we should scrap bans all together and just strike for every stage. Unforunately, I tried creating a ruleset where stages are always struck for, but it ends up not working because you get an even number. Just to reiterate, my goal with this system is to ensure players play on the three most balanced stages (which is obviously subjective, so it is being determined by the players through striking). I think having 2 bans/strikes results in a similar effect, however. Also, I think we should just bo5 sets when possible (i.e. not restricted by time). Just do like bo3s for pools, but at least all bracket matches should be bo5s, and I think that's how Europe does it so no johns.

Stage List:
- Battlefield
- Dream Land 64
- Final Destination
- Fountain of Dreams (banned in Doubles)
- Pokemon Stadium (only available as a counterpick after Game 1 for Singles)
- Yoshi's Story

DSR is in effect (players cannot choose a stage they previously won on). I'm not positive how DSR works in bo5s, but it shouldn't ban two stages at once, especially since Game 1's stage was struck for evenly by each player. That is the best way I see of balancing out the fact that the winner of game 1 has to deal with an extra DSR in the first place. Also, strikes are basically bans, but I didn't want people thinking they were set-long bans. It's just a ban for that individual game.

Game 1:
- Players double blind for choosing characters
- Strike 1221 (w/o PS)

Game 2:
- Winner of Game 1 chooses character
- Loser of Game 1 chooses character
- Winner of Game 1 strikes 2 stages
- Loser of Game 1 chooses stage from the 4 remaining

Game 3:
- Winner of Game 2 chooses character
- Loser of Game 2 chooses character
- Winner of Game 2 strikes 2 stages
- Loser of Game 2 chooses stage from the 3 remaining (DSR bans Game 1's stage)

---------- EXTEND TO Bo5 ----------

Game 4:
- Winner of Game 3 chooses character
- Loser of Game 3 chooses character
- Winner of Game 3 strikes 2 stages
- Loser of Game 3 chooses stage from the 3 remaining (DSR bans Game 2's stage)

Game 5:
- Winner of Game 4 chooses character
- Loser of Game 4 chooses character
- Winner of Game 4 strikes 2 stages
- Loser of Game 4 chooses stage from the 3 remaining (DSR bans Game 3's stage)

 

[Ripple]

Ripple it almost sounds as if you want competitive smash to be like mario party. because it isn't blatantly obvious enough for you, i will state it: the rules we employ strive to achieve as skillbased and competitive of a game as possible. the only characteristic of smash we are stripping is its party game design; we do this by removing items and unfair stages. to make this game competitive we must eliminate the stages that offer ridiculous advantages to certain characters and/or possess hazards that add a huge luck factor to the game.

stop with the "no hazards + not random = fair stage!" logic. this criteria fails to analyze the shape of a stage, a department in which RC is clearly at fault.

and no, allowing stages with hazards yet wanting to ban brinstar is not a double standard. you fail to analyze the magnitude of these hazards. do you know what magnitude means, Ripple? DL64 has a hazard in the form of wind; should we ban it for this reason? no, because the wind hardly affects the game. the same goes for Randall on YS. neither of these compare to the damage brinstar's lava can do.

you obviously don't even comprehend my posts if you think I support what you said I did.

I'm not even going to bother anymore. time to bring out the big guns.

SUSA!

RAZIEK!

BUDGET PLAYER CADET!

HO!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bing]

I really dont see how Brinstar isnt fair, it forces a player to control a platform for all of what? 20 seconds every minute or so. That should just show more skill that you can, no matter whether your using a Fox, Sheik, Bowser or whatever you use, that you have something other then shear tech skill. not to mention theres only one part where you need to be on one platform, so for the rest of the match, you have other options...

 

[Theftz22]

you obviously don't even comprehend my posts if you think I support what you said I did.

I'm not even going to bother anymore. time to bring out the big guns.

SUSA!

RAZIEK!

BUDGET PLAYER CADET!

HO!!!!!!!!!!